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Missed the race because I dared travel to anther country and all of the services I pay to watch it blocked me from doing so, but having read about the race it was a fairly dull affair.
I think the reason most people dislike Vettel is because the majority of the race wins he has are seemingly due to his Red Bull being the fastest car. I can only think of a handful of races he has had to actually fight for and when his car hasn't been great he has struggled, compare that to Lewis and Fernando and they are able to drive around a car that isn't great (something they both have had pretty good experience with recentaly).
I really hope Merc and Ferrari can make some strong upgrades for the rest of the season otherwise it's looking like 2011 all over again...
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Worst. Race. Ever. The cameraman took about 20 minutes to show how Massa is trying to close up the gap with Grosjean but couldn't gain anything. Plus the fake messages about the rain looked rather pathetic, considering how far were the clouds.
FIA, please bring back refuelling during the pitstops and manual gearboxes, otherwise this will become totally unbearable.
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Yeah the automatic gearboxes they use atm really ruin F1....
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On August 26 2013 19:14 baldgye wrote:
Missed the race because I dared travel to anther country and all of the services I pay to watch it blocked me from doing so, but having read about the race it was a fairly dull affair.
I think the reason most people dislike Vettel is because the majority of the race wins he has are seemingly due to his Red Bull being the fastest car. I can only think of a handful of races he has had to actually fight for and when his car hasn't been great he has struggled, compare that to Lewis and Fernando and they are able to drive around a car that isn't great (something they both have had pretty good experience with recentaly).
I really hope Merc and Ferrari can make some strong upgrades for the rest of the season otherwise it's looking like 2011 all over again...
Yeah, the car is super awesome, that's why every race Vettel wins, Webber comes second.
2009 Qualifying 15-2 Races 6-4 with average qualifying gap 0.112secs. 2nd in championship vs 4th
2010 Qualifying 12-7 Races 10-5 with average qualifying gap 0.051secs. 1st vs 3rd
2011 Qualifying 16-3 Races 15-2 with average qualifying gap 0.517secs. 1st vs 3rd
2012 Qualifying 12-8 Races 11-5 1st vs 6th
2013 Qualifying 11-0 Races 10-1 (With the one loss being due to a DNF). 1st vs 5th
If the Red Bull is so good,why is Webber so bad?
Webber must be a really terrible driver to get destroyed by his teammate for the last 4.5 years.
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On August 26 2013 12:09 Bigtony wrote:
I don't see how you can watch him and say with a straight face that you think Alonso and Hamilton are clearly better (that is, they are clearly superior and he is not at least their equal).
At this point in his very short career he has moved beyond being 'just fast.' Early on he showed us he could win from pole. Easily. He could qualify in 1/2. Easily. Over the past few years he's shown us that he can win from behind and pass too. To say that Hamilton is clearly better than him is dishonest. Hamilton never had raw pace like Vettel does and his racecraft is at best equal to Vettel's (and nowhere near Alonso's).
Alonso's 2010 campaign is the best evidence that he's a better driver than Vettel in ways that don't show up on timesheets.
I don't really like Vettel and it's pretty easy to see why people hate him. If you ignore Malaysia this year, remind yourself of Turkey. By all appearances he's a raging baby whenever he doesn't get his way. If this is the stuff we see, imagine what we don't.
Spa 2013 was a good race by modern f1 standards, but boring for Spa. Completely dry race lacked the excitement of mixed condition qualifying. I'm not particularly excited for Monza...it's usually really boring. It's basically Nascar.
I can hold a straight face, as can the two guys who rate each other as the best. Formula one isn't fair, imagine if Usain Bolt had a longer distance than everyone else to run. You say it is "dishonest" to say Hamilton is better, well I will tell you why that is my opinion.
Junior formula - Lewis pisses on what Vettel did at junior level, when everyone had the same car Seb was losing to guys like DiResta (and Hamilton).
Team-mates - Seb has never faced anyone of worth, Webber is inconsistent and not a top driver. He fell into RB (as a midfield team) as part of a deal for Renault engines because Flavio was his manager, prior to this he was beaten easily by Nick Heidfeld. Even so, he still would have won 2010 had it not been for the call Ferrari made. Before that he had Bourdais who perhaps was one of the worst drivers of recent times. Even so, last year Lewis and Fernando beat their respected team-mates 17-3 in quali, Seb managed to beat Mark 11-9.
Watching - If you actually watch the guys setting Q3 lap times, you can see how littered with mistakes Vettel's are compared to Lewis. The difference is subtle and many casual fans don't see it.
2012 - People talk about Alonso's performance last season with an inferior car, but Hamilton was also immense. His team cost him the title. For more details on that read this: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/analysis-how-the-points-and-the-title-slipped-away-for-lewis-hamilton/
Luck - In 2010 he should have lost to either Alonso or Webber, fortune was with the German in the last race. 2011 he destroyed it, fair enough but that car was like a mid 90's Williams. 2012 still the best car again and he caused an accident that should have resulted in retirement for him in Brazil and a possible title for Alonso, plus McLaren threw away Hamilton's challenge. This year has been his best, by far, but the RB still is the fastest car by quite a margin.
You can have whatever opinion of Seb that you like, but he is undoubtedly lucky and would not be a world champion if he drove for any other team. Personally I hope RB make a mess of the new regulations, not because they "push the boundaries" of legality or seem to moan more than most, just to show the casual fan he won't win without a better car than Lewis or Fernando.
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On August 26 2013 20:34 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 19:14 baldgye wrote:
Missed the race because I dared travel to anther country and all of the services I pay to watch it blocked me from doing so, but having read about the race it was a fairly dull affair.
I think the reason most people dislike Vettel is because the majority of the race wins he has are seemingly due to his Red Bull being the fastest car. I can only think of a handful of races he has had to actually fight for and when his car hasn't been great he has struggled, compare that to Lewis and Fernando and they are able to drive around a car that isn't great (something they both have had pretty good experience with recentaly).
I really hope Merc and Ferrari can make some strong upgrades for the rest of the season otherwise it's looking like 2011 all over again... Yeah, the car is super awesome, that's why every race Vettel wins, Webber comes second. 2009 Qualifying 15-2 Races 6-4 with average qualifying gap 0.112secs. 2nd in championship vs 4th 2010 Qualifying 12-7 Races 10-5 with average qualifying gap 0.051secs. 1st vs 3rd 2011 Qualifying 16-3 Races 15-2 with average qualifying gap 0.517secs. 1st vs 3rd 2012 Qualifying 12-8 Races 11-5 1st vs 6th 2013 Qualifying 11-0 Races 10-1 (With the one loss being due to a DNF). 1st vs 5th If the Red Bull is so good,why is Webber so bad? Webber must be a really terrible driver to get destroyed by his teammate for the last 4.5 years.
How is Nick Heidfeld's career getting on?
Edit: Webber and his career:-
He didn't have the greatest record in lower formula growing up to be honest. He lacked financial backing to progress and after a year of F3 he competed in sports cars for Mercedes (alongside the current safety car driver). His big break came in 99 when he met Paul Stoddart who funded a year of F3000 for him where he finished third, after that he hit the jackpot. Benetton offered him a test where he impressed Briatore, a man that would help him over his career hugely. In return for funding another year of F3000 at the best team on the grid and an F1 test role, Flavio would become his new manager. Webber finished second to Justin Wilson (remember him?) and Flavio managed to secure him a drive in F1 at Minardi alongside perhaps the worst F1 driver this century, Alex Yoong. This may look as a promotion but essentially Alonso traded his drive at Minardi for the test driver role at Renault that Webber had.
At Minardi he did a good job, even scoring on his debut due to a big incident. He destroyed Yoong and secured a seat at Jaguar. Next up was Pizzonia, who like Piquet jr never seemed to perform in F1 like the lower formula had suggested. Pizzonia was sacked and his old rival from F3000 Justin Wilson replaced him halfway through the year but did little better than Pizzonia. At this point in his career Webber looked good but had yet to be tested against a proven F1 driver. In his final year at Jaguar Webber was matched to Cristian Klien, an Austrian rookie. He again beat his team-mate easily and at this point got his dream move to Williams, where he was to partner Button.
That move fell through though and he ended up being alongside Nick Heidfeld, an experienced but not so highly rated German. This to me was his first real test, before this all he had were rookies who didn't cut it. Webber finished ahead, just, but only because Heidfeld did not compete in the last five races where Williams were at there most competitive. Heidfeld had a pole and two second places, and this led to him leaving for the new BMW team. This season was a big blow and perhaps ended any hopes of Webber getting a drive at the very top.
The next season he was to be pitted against another rookie, 20 y/o Nico Rosberg. The car was very poor though compared to the previous year and both drivers struggled. Not only was it slow, but unreliable (Rosberg retired from HALF the races). Nevertheless Webber reclaimed his crown of beating team-mates and outperformed Rosberg just. Webber wanted to stay but Frank only offered him vastly reduced wages and Mark left the team. He had a hard time finding a good team and in the end a deal was struck between Briatore and Red Bull (who were much like Force India or Sauber today) for Webber to get a seat in return for Renault engines. He then had two good years of trouncing David Coulthard before Red Bull announced that a young whippersnapper named Sebastian would be joining him for 2009. The rest is history.
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On August 26 2013 20:34 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 19:14 baldgye wrote:
Missed the race because I dared travel to anther country and all of the services I pay to watch it blocked me from doing so, but having read about the race it was a fairly dull affair.
I think the reason most people dislike Vettel is because the majority of the race wins he has are seemingly due to his Red Bull being the fastest car. I can only think of a handful of races he has had to actually fight for and when his car hasn't been great he has struggled, compare that to Lewis and Fernando and they are able to drive around a car that isn't great (something they both have had pretty good experience with recentaly).
I really hope Merc and Ferrari can make some strong upgrades for the rest of the season otherwise it's looking like 2011 all over again... Yeah, the car is super awesome, that's why every race Vettel wins, Webber comes second. 2009 Qualifying 15-2 Races 6-4 with average qualifying gap 0.112secs. 2nd in championship vs 4th 2010 Qualifying 12-7 Races 10-5 with average qualifying gap 0.051secs. 1st vs 3rd 2011 Qualifying 16-3 Races 15-2 with average qualifying gap 0.517secs. 1st vs 3rd 2012 Qualifying 12-8 Races 11-5 1st vs 6th 2013 Qualifying 11-0 Races 10-1 (With the one loss being due to a DNF). 1st vs 5th If the Red Bull is so good,why is Webber so bad? Webber must be a really terrible driver to get destroyed by his teammate for the last 4.5 years.
Because Vettel is a much faster driver than Webber. Vettel is one of the top drivers in the world, Mark isn't. That's the difference.
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Vettel is undoubtedly faster, but you're selling Webber massively short. He drives an F1 car; he's a top driver in the world. He's been very fast in 1 lap for most of his career (and still regularly takes the fastest lap) and has displayed great racecraft (passing, tire/fuel preservation, wet weather driving) when the opportunity arises. You don't win 15 races by accident, luck, or 'having the best car' (although all 3 help).
On top of all that, you can't have this discussion without saying that Webber is at the end of his career and returned to the sport from a crushing injury (oh yeah, raced for 2 years with metal rods in his legs) whereas Vettel probably hasn't even peaked yet (in terms of skill). All this with a body type that would bar most people from even being considered as an F1 prospect. Put Webber in any top car from the start of his career and he's fighting with Kimi/Alonso/Hamilton for titles. I don't think he's better than those guys, but he is right behind.
Simply put, Webber is a very strong driver and a solid benchmark for Vettel.
Vettel didn't win 2010 on luck - without freak retirements in Australia and Korea he wins handily.
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I'm doing nothing of the sort, Webber is a solid, strong driver. But better than Alonso and Lewis in slower cars he is not.
IMO the top drivers in f1 atm are Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi. Everyone else is (as far as I'm conserned) on a lower level.
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Vettel might have gotten "destroyed" by Hamilton and DiResta in the past, but that doesn't mean anything. People don't get stuck on their skill level forever and not everyone advances the same. Theres no reason why Vettel couldn't have improved his skills faster and better than those two named.
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Hulkenberg might be there with those four.
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On August 27 2013 06:39 baldgye wrote:
I'm doing nothing of the sort, Webber is a solid, strong driver. But better than Alonso and Lewis in slower cars he is not.
IMO the top drivers in f1 atm are Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi. Everyone else is (as far as I'm conserned) on a lower level.
I pretty much agree with this. There's a good chance Vettel is actually the worst of those drivers, but he is still definitely in the top 4-5 on the grid, has probably the best car, and also some decent luck. But he deserves his championships, and also deserves to be called one of the best of all time (and surely you'd put Kimi, Hamilton and Alonso there as well).
Of course there is plenty more time for some of those drivers to prove themselves, especially Hamilton and Vettel, so damn young..who knows when Kimi retires, but he won't be driving for that much longer imo.
There are a bunch of great drivers that are still better than the rest imo, but maybe that's my bias, Hulkenberg, DiResta, Grosjean if he didn't drive so recklessly, and a few more stand out, I think. And Webber would probably fit into that group. He's a good driver, but he's not a top 4-5 driver. My opinions, of course. I am pretty disappointed that Kimi didn't end up at RB for next year, that would have been amazing to watch.
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Formula 1 is one of my favorite game and i don't missed to watch this game.
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Germany1287 Posts
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What a rubbish qualifying, really hope it rains tommorow or it is going to be a very boring race.
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Hulk was outstanding today, I really hope he can get a top drive for next year. Alonso was interesting, it seems his dummy is once again on the floor. Hamilton (or Sutil) ended his four year Q3 streak too, impressive record gone. Dull though compared to last week but with rain expected hopefully a good race.
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Germany1287 Posts
Rain is to come in the late afternoon/evening. Dry race expected.
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bunch of weather forecasts still say rain for the race, hopefully it will rain.
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I feel like there's a tape recording somewhere that's played with Vettel cheering and his race engineer saying "Good Job" every time he wins.
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Another boring race and typical Lewis luck, broken radio, puncture etc. Vettel has won the championship now unless he just happens to not finish the next 4 races.
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EPT
