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Norway28870 Posts
there's no reason to be upset with neither götze nor bayern due to this transfer
you should hate on the players who refuse to resign contracts cuz they want a free transfer (and thus more for themselves). and to my knowledge, dortmund signed reus in the exact same way that bayern is signing götze now. if they don't want people leaving due to buyout clauses then well, don't sign contracts with them.
or just direct your anger towards the general football market, fight for introducing wage caps (which would make many more teams economically competitive) or whatever. but neither götze nor bayern deserve any hate for this. bayern has actually made their money also.
I mean basically if you're gonna hate on any player who leaves the club that developed them or whatever, then you're essentially saying ; if you want to win trophies, you can't sign your youth contract for one of the not-biggest clubs. bayern has _dominated_ bundesliga this season and they would win next season regardless of whether they signed götze.
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On April 24 2013 02:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there's no reason to be upset with neither götze nor bayern due to this transfer
you should hate on the players who refuse to resign contracts cuz they want a free transfer (and thus more for themselves). and to my knowledge, dortmund signed reus in the exact same way that bayern is signing götze now. if they don't want people leaving due to buyout clauses then well, don't sign contracts with them.
or just direct your anger towards the general football market, fight for introducing wage caps (which would make many more teams economically competitive) or whatever. but neither götze nor bayern deserve any hate for this. bayern has actually made their money also.
I mean basically if you're gonna hate on any player who leaves the club that developed them or whatever, then you're essentially saying ; if you want to win trophies, you can't sign your youth contract for one of the not-biggest clubs. bayern has _dominated_ bundesliga this season and they would win next season regardless of whether they signed götze.
Yeah, people forget that Dortmund did the same thing with Reus from Gladbach. And I'd love to see how many of the people blaming Goetze for this WOULDN'T take the money (I'm guessing not a lot). I think Dortmund will be okay because they can easily still make the UCL and keep themselves financially stable so they can get new players. Edit: Thinking about it now, it's really crazy that Goetze is the same age as me and moving to one of the biggest football clubs in the world. What have I made of my life so far? 
I do think Bayern are cunts though, it really does seem like they only leaked it to get the headlines off their chairman that doesn't pay his taxes. In other news:
http://www.thefa.com/News/governance/2013/apr/olivier-giroud-fulham-arsenal-wrongful-dismissal-claim-dismissed.aspx
Fuck. Guess we get Podolski/Gervinho at CF for the next three weeks.
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On April 24 2013 02:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there's no reason to be upset with neither götze nor bayern due to this transfer
you should hate on the players who refuse to resign contracts cuz they want a free transfer (and thus more for themselves). and to my knowledge, dortmund signed reus in the exact same way that bayern is signing götze now. if they don't want people leaving due to buyout clauses then well, don't sign contracts with them.
or just direct your anger towards the general football market, fight for introducing wage caps (which would make many more teams economically competitive) or whatever. but neither götze nor bayern deserve any hate for this. bayern has actually made their money also.
I mean basically if you're gonna hate on any player who leaves the club that developed them or whatever, then you're essentially saying ; if you want to win trophies, you can't sign your youth contract for one of the not-biggest clubs. bayern has _dominated_ bundesliga this season and they would win next season regardless of whether they signed götze.
Reus developed in Dortmund. Dortmund is his original club.
Reus didn't renew a contract a month before he was signed by Dortmund. He was bought several years into his contract.
Reus made and announced his decision during the winter break, not right before a CL semifinal.
Reus wasn't sold to the arch-enemy. Gladbach and Dortmund aren't rivals like Bayern-BVB, or S04-BVB.
Buying Reus wasn't a move done to gut Gladbach and eliminate competition via buyouts. Reus was bought as a player that still has a lot of potential and need for development and plays a key role in a system at Dortmund.
There are many ways to transfer or go to new clubs with class. Doing it like Goetze isn't classy in any sense. He did it right after he talked about staying in Dortmund, right after he renewed his contract, he did it right in the midst of a CL run, he signed with a huge rival, and he is leaving a team that has every chance of becoming a major European power.
In fact, this transfer is almost nothing like Reus's transfer from Gladbach. It's much more like Neuer's transfer from Schalke (to Bayern no less), and we all know how classless Neuer is. Lied to the Schalke community and then transferred shortly after, and continues to act like an entitled little prick at Bayern.
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On April 24 2013 03:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:
In fact, this transfer is almost nothing like Reus's transfer from Gladbach.
True, the gap between Bayern and Dortmund is a lot bigger than the gap between Dortmund and Gladbach was at the time Dortmund signed Reus, not to mention that Dortmund is less dependant on Götze than Gladbach was on Reus last year.
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To clarify, I wouldn't blame either team of primarily wanting to weaken a competitor. What you attributed to Reus also applies to Götze - he has lots of potential, is a type of player Bayern does not have and that Guardiola wants to use and he also came at a very tempting price.
He is pretty much the one player I wanted for Bayern, but I'm still not perfectly happy with the transfer. I want Dortmund to be strong, I hope they can recover and spend the money well.
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bayern really is the best club out there atm .
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On April 24 2013 03:37 clusen wrote:
He is pretty much the one player I wanted for Bayern, but I'm still not perfectly happy with the transfer. I want Dortmund to be strong, I hope they can recover and spend the money well.
I have a really hard time to see how the money will get spent. Of course everybody can be promised CL next season because we're already qualified, but what perspective is there for good players? Everybody is going to see that Barrios, Kagawa, Sahin, Götze, [to be continued] left so why would they come to Dortmund? And while we reached the semis this year we couldn't do anything last year. If I was a player who would just look at the offer I wouldn't assume that long-term international success is close to a given.
The team got too good too fast in a way. Every big club is fast on buying if they see the need and the money they throw at players can't be paid by a club that had 3 good years slowly recovering from a financial desaster.
And who are you going to buy? It feels as if every player outside of Germany is worth far more than he would be if he played in the Bundesliga. So for a reasonable price you're having to look inside the Bundesliga (where there is absolutely nobody who can help in another good CL run imo) or have the luck to scout another Kagawa.
Throwing huge amounts of money at one player is surely not the right thing to do because the roster is not broad enough. Finding 5-7 players in the 10-15million range might be possible but how fast and good can you integrate them?
As I said before I would prefer the latter option coupled with a lot of money used to instantly pay back some of the debts, but I know that I might have to accept that the big years are over for the moment until success and financial stability allow reasonable growth again.
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On April 24 2013 03:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 02:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there's no reason to be upset with neither götze nor bayern due to this transfer
you should hate on the players who refuse to resign contracts cuz they want a free transfer (and thus more for themselves). and to my knowledge, dortmund signed reus in the exact same way that bayern is signing götze now. if they don't want people leaving due to buyout clauses then well, don't sign contracts with them.
or just direct your anger towards the general football market, fight for introducing wage caps (which would make many more teams economically competitive) or whatever. but neither götze nor bayern deserve any hate for this. bayern has actually made their money also.
I mean basically if you're gonna hate on any player who leaves the club that developed them or whatever, then you're essentially saying ; if you want to win trophies, you can't sign your youth contract for one of the not-biggest clubs. bayern has _dominated_ bundesliga this season and they would win next season regardless of whether they signed götze.
Reus developed in Dortmund. Dortmund is his original club. Reus didn't renew a contract a month before he was signed by Dortmund. He was bought several years into his contract. Reus made and announced his decision during the winter break, not right before a CL semifinal. Reus wasn't sold to the arch-enemy. Gladbach and Dortmund aren't rivals like Bayern-BVB, or S04-BVB. Buying Reus wasn't a move done to gut Gladbach and eliminate competition via buyouts. Reus was bought as a player that still has a lot of potential and need for development and plays a key role in a system at Dortmund. There are many ways to transfer or go to new clubs with class. Doing it like Goetze isn't classy in any sense. He did it right after he talked about staying in Dortmund, right after he renewed his contract, he did it right in the midst of a CL run, he signed with a huge rival, and he is leaving a team that has every chance of becoming a major European power. In fact, this transfer is almost nothing like Reus's transfer from Gladbach. It's much more like Neuer's transfer from Schalke (to Bayern no less), and we all know how classless Neuer is. Lied to the Schalke community and then transferred shortly after, and continues to act like an entitled little prick at Bayern.
i dont see your problem at all. all this "rival" bullshit diehard fans ignite is nothing anyone else cares about. most of the top people of the clubs know eachother, are friends.
also like it or not, professional sport is about money and success. atleast bayerns money is earned instead of some rich dude buying at and throwning money in for fun or clubs begging for 200m+ credits.
and dont blame goetze for marking a smart choice. he got the chance to a) earn a ton of money, b) play in one of the worlds top3 clubs under one of the most famed trainers c) he will from now on win titles and play the best of the best on a regular basis d)come into another team where he already knows tons of people from the national team
if he would throw that away just cause some people in dortmund think bayern is not nice then he would be plain stupid.
would i be pissed if lahm/schweinsteiger/müller decided to go to X german club? i guess. but i wouldnt rage about it wishing doom about him and the evil club that wanted his skills.
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On April 24 2013 06:47 smr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 03:37 clusen wrote:
He is pretty much the one player I wanted for Bayern, but I'm still not perfectly happy with the transfer. I want Dortmund to be strong, I hope they can recover and spend the money well. I have a really hard time to see how the money will get spent. Of course everybody can be promised CL next season because we're already qualified, but what perspective is there for good players? Everybody is going to see that Barrios, Kagawa, Sahin, Götze, [to be continued] left so why would they come to Dortmund? And while we reached the semis this year we couldn't do anything last year. If I was a player who would just look at the offer I wouldn't assume that long-term international success is close to a given. The team got too good too fast in a way. Every big club is fast on buying if they see the need and the money they throw at players can't be paid by a club that had 3 good years slowly recovering from a financial desaster. And who are you going to buy? It feels as if every player outside of Germany is worth far more than he would be if he played in the Bundesliga. So for a reasonable price you're having to look inside the Bundesliga (where there is absolutely nobody who can help in another good CL run imo) or have the luck to scout another Kagawa. Throwing huge amounts of money at one player is surely not the right thing to do because the roster is not broad enough. Finding 5-7 players in the 10-15million range might be possible but how fast and good can you integrate them? As I said before I would prefer the latter option coupled with a lot of money used to instantly pay back some of the debts, but I know that I might have to accept that the big years are over for the moment until success and financial stability allow reasonable growth again.
Dortmund is now one of the most financially sound clubs out there. Only outstanding debt is the stadium (being paid off by 2016 or so), we only spend money that we make, and we don't just lavishly spend on random players; we develop a lot of talent. The problem is just that; we have a ton of people leaving, and players outside the Bundesliga are paid obnoxious wages, so who's going to come to Germany from outside Germany if you're not going to Bayern?
True, the gap between Bayern and Dortmund is a lot bigger than the gap between Dortmund and Gladbach was at the time Dortmund signed Reus, not to mention that Dortmund is less dependant on Götze than Gladbach was on Reus last year.
€
To clarify, I wouldn't blame either team of primarily wanting to weaken a competitor. What you attributed to Reus also applies to Götze - he has lots of potential, is a type of player Bayern does not have and that Guardiola wants to use and he also came at a very tempting price.
He is pretty much the one player I wanted for Bayern, but I'm still not perfectly happy with the transfer. I want Dortmund to be strong, I hope they can recover and spend the money well.
What reason was there to buy Goetze? What massive hole does he fill in the Bayern team that Reus filled in Dortmund?
Answer: None. The only reason that Goetze was bought is to be there a couple years down the line, and in the immediate future, come off the bench. It was a strategic buy to take away talent from a competitor now so that you don't have to face him on the pitch.
i dont see your problem at all. all this "rival" bullshit diehard fans ignite is nothing anyone else cares about. most of the top people of the clubs know eachother, are friends.
also like it or not, professional sport is about money and success. atleast bayerns money is earned instead of some rich dude buying at and throwning money in for fun or clubs begging for 200m+ credits.
and dont blame goetze for marking a smart choice. he got the chance to a) earn a ton of money, b) play in one of the worlds top3 clubs under one of the most famed trainers c) he will from now on win titles and play the best of the best on a regular basis d)come into another team where he already knows tons of people from the national team
if he would throw that away just cause some people in dortmund think bayern is not nice then he would be plain stupid.
would i be pissed if lahm/schweinsteiger/müller decided to go to X german club? i guess. but i wouldnt rage about it wishing doom about him and the evil club that wanted his skills.
Well, European football may be full of sellouts with no integrity, but Americans (in general) expect a little better than that, and that's why you see competition being so much better here.
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On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 06:47 smr wrote:On April 24 2013 03:37 clusen wrote:
He is pretty much the one player I wanted for Bayern, but I'm still not perfectly happy with the transfer. I want Dortmund to be strong, I hope they can recover and spend the money well. I have a really hard time to see how the money will get spent. Of course everybody can be promised CL next season because we're already qualified, but what perspective is there for good players? Everybody is going to see that Barrios, Kagawa, Sahin, Götze, [to be continued] left so why would they come to Dortmund? And while we reached the semis this year we couldn't do anything last year. If I was a player who would just look at the offer I wouldn't assume that long-term international success is close to a given. The team got too good too fast in a way. Every big club is fast on buying if they see the need and the money they throw at players can't be paid by a club that had 3 good years slowly recovering from a financial desaster. And who are you going to buy? It feels as if every player outside of Germany is worth far more than he would be if he played in the Bundesliga. So for a reasonable price you're having to look inside the Bundesliga (where there is absolutely nobody who can help in another good CL run imo) or have the luck to scout another Kagawa. Throwing huge amounts of money at one player is surely not the right thing to do because the roster is not broad enough. Finding 5-7 players in the 10-15million range might be possible but how fast and good can you integrate them? As I said before I would prefer the latter option coupled with a lot of money used to instantly pay back some of the debts, but I know that I might have to accept that the big years are over for the moment until success and financial stability allow reasonable growth again. Dortmund is now one of the most financially sound clubs out there. Only outstanding debt is the stadium (being paid off by 2016 or so), we only spend money that we make, and we don't just lavishly spend on random players; we develop a lot of talent. The problem is just that; we have a ton of people leaving, and players outside the Bundesliga are paid obnoxious wages, so who's going to come to Germany from outside Germany if you're not going to Bayern?
I guess we absolutely agree on that but you could form the words far better than I do.
The thing with talent is that it often takes some time to develop. I can't see Bittencourt take Götzes position and own the Bundesliga just yet.
The thing with finances is that it doesn't really matter right now when competing for transfers. Given CL or EuroLeague success in the next 5 years we might get into a situation where the management says: "We can dramatically increase wages or transfer expenses." But for now they won't do it for good reason and so you're going to lose against oligarch-/bank-owned clubs and Bayern (who deserve every bit of respect from a business pov) when trying to go for a good replacement/hold your own players.
Just a question although it doesn't fit the topic too much. The american draft system in basketball etc is based on university teams isn't it? I really like that especially because it puts a lot more focus on new blood.
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On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Well, European football may be full of sellouts with no integrity, but Americans (in general) expect a little better than that, and that's why you see competition being so much better here.
dunno why you have to write it that way but yeah, america really is known for its anti capitalism (in general) and how money means nothing there.
and im sure evry great talent always stayed in the city he was born,raised and trained no matter the payment or how good the team was he could play for.
really i cant take that comment serious at all. there is loyalty, and your much hated bayern is known for treating their players amazing for long periods of time. for example mehmet scholl said he expected to get kicked cause his performance sucked but hoeneß pretty much was "whatever buddy, sign here for few more years".
but hey if you want to turn this one occassion where someone did something that you didnt like into a huge "eu sux, murrrica rulz" thing i wont take part in it.
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On April 24 2013 07:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Well, European football may be full of sellouts with no integrity, but Americans (in general) expect a little better than that, and that's why you see competition being so much better here. dunno why you have to write it that way but yeah, america really is know for its anti capitalism and how money means nothing there. and im sure evry great talent always stayed in the city he was born,raised and trained no matter the payment or how good the team was he could play for. really i cant take that comment serious at all. there is loyalty, and your much hated bayern is known for treating their players amazing for long periods of time. for example mehmet scholl said he expected to get kicked cause his performance sucked but hoeneß pretty much was "whatever buddy, sign here for few more years". but hey if you want to turn this one occassion where someone did something that you didnt like into a huge "eu sux, murrrica rulz" thing i wont take part in it.
I like how you comment on American culture in a sarcastic way while simultaneously demonstrating the fact that you know nothing about American sports culture. American sports is not just a business; there are far more financial restrictions and institutions in play that promote competitiveness (discouraging the same teams from dominating consistently) than there is in European football (or probably any other sports in any other countries). Really, absolutely nothing works the same as it does in Europe. You don't train in sports in the city you grew up in, then just sign with a club, and work your way through the ranks. You play sports in school, and then you are drafted or signed into a professional team. Players in the U.S. (for better or for worse) have almost no say in where they go.
Furthermore, American sports culture looks down on sellouts quite harshly. Loyalty and integrity comes in when you pay respect to the franchise that first used a draft pick on you or took the risk to sign you if you went undrafted. Players that just sell out on promising teams to go win easy championships or go after the big bucks (especially if it's to a rival) are actually criticized quite harshly (Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Brett Favre, Albert Pujols, etc.).
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On April 24 2013 07:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 07:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Well, European football may be full of sellouts with no integrity, but Americans (in general) expect a little better than that, and that's why you see competition being so much better here. dunno why you have to write it that way but yeah, america really is know for its anti capitalism and how money means nothing there. and im sure evry great talent always stayed in the city he was born,raised and trained no matter the payment or how good the team was he could play for. really i cant take that comment serious at all. there is loyalty, and your much hated bayern is known for treating their players amazing for long periods of time. for example mehmet scholl said he expected to get kicked cause his performance sucked but hoeneß pretty much was "whatever buddy, sign here for few more years". but hey if you want to turn this one occassion where someone did something that you didnt like into a huge "eu sux, murrrica rulz" thing i wont take part in it. I like how you comment on American culture in a sarcastic way while simultaneously demonstrating the fact that you know nothing about American sports culture. American sports is not just a business; there are far more financial restrictions and institutions in play that promote competitiveness (discouraging the same teams from dominating consistently) than there is in European football (or probably any other sports in any other countries). Really, absolutely nothing works the same as it does in Europe. You don't train in sports in the city you grew up in, then just sign with a club, and work your way through the ranks. You play sports in school, and then you are drafted or signed into a professional team. Players in the U.S. (for better or for worse) have almost no say in where they go. Furthermore, American sports culture looks down on sellouts quite harshly. Loyalty and integrity comes in when you pay respect to the franchise that first used a draft pick on you or took the risk to sign you if you went undrafted. Players that just sell out on promising teams to go win easy championships or go after the big bucks ( especially if it's to a rival) are actually criticized quite harshly (Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Brett Favre, Albert Pujols, etc.).
i only commented that way cause of your totally unneeded "in general" and agressive wording.
and youre right, i pretty much only know the basics of the american sports system. but from what i see its basicly the exact same in the end like here after all the rookie time and drafts. then its business and the chance to play for a great team again.
that the players have no say and are treated like resources for the overall machinery of the nfl,nba etc isnt exactly great either.
i also dont like it that money is so important and the numbers that get thrown around are insane. but honestly, if you really hate that so much turn to the teams that got bought out by rich investors or are supported by their government. not to a club that earned its wealth by beeing successful and good management.
also that this whole thing started up with a quite sick ragehate post overall leaves me guessing that your problem isnt with the system but that youre just angry about that particular trade.
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On April 24 2013 07:56 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 07:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 24 2013 07:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Well, European football may be full of sellouts with no integrity, but Americans (in general) expect a little better than that, and that's why you see competition being so much better here. dunno why you have to write it that way but yeah, america really is know for its anti capitalism and how money means nothing there. and im sure evry great talent always stayed in the city he was born,raised and trained no matter the payment or how good the team was he could play for. really i cant take that comment serious at all. there is loyalty, and your much hated bayern is known for treating their players amazing for long periods of time. for example mehmet scholl said he expected to get kicked cause his performance sucked but hoeneß pretty much was "whatever buddy, sign here for few more years". but hey if you want to turn this one occassion where someone did something that you didnt like into a huge "eu sux, murrrica rulz" thing i wont take part in it. I like how you comment on American culture in a sarcastic way while simultaneously demonstrating the fact that you know nothing about American sports culture. American sports is not just a business; there are far more financial restrictions and institutions in play that promote competitiveness (discouraging the same teams from dominating consistently) than there is in European football (or probably any other sports in any other countries). Really, absolutely nothing works the same as it does in Europe. You don't train in sports in the city you grew up in, then just sign with a club, and work your way through the ranks. You play sports in school, and then you are drafted or signed into a professional team. Players in the U.S. (for better or for worse) have almost no say in where they go. Furthermore, American sports culture looks down on sellouts quite harshly. Loyalty and integrity comes in when you pay respect to the franchise that first used a draft pick on you or took the risk to sign you if you went undrafted. Players that just sell out on promising teams to go win easy championships or go after the big bucks ( especially if it's to a rival) are actually criticized quite harshly (Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Brett Favre, Albert Pujols, etc.). i only commented that way cause of your totally unneeded "in general" and agressive wording. and youre right, i pretty much only know the basics of the american sports system. but from what i see its basicly the exact same in the end like here after all the rookie time and drafts. then its business and the chance to play for a great team again. that the players have no say and are treated like resources for the overall machinery of the nfl,nba etc isnt exactly great either. i also dont like it that money is so important and the numbers that get thrown around are insane. but honestly, if you really hate that so much turn to the teams that got bought out by rich investors or are supported by their government. not to a club that earned its wealth by beeing successful and good management. also that this whole thing started up with a quite sick ragehate post overall leaves me guessing that your problem isnt with the system but that youre just angry about that particular trade.
I've always passionately hated how finances work in football. And yes, Bayern deserves plenty of respect for how they manage their club; they've become incredibly successful without just dumping tons of cash into the game and running up huge debts. That said, they still just throw around their name and money to bully their way to the top in the Bundesliga (often buying titles before a campaign even starts), and there was absolutely no class in this acquisition of Goetze.
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On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
What reason was there to buy Goetze? What massive hole does he fill in the Bayern team that Reus filled in Dortmund?
Answer: None. The only reason that Goetze was bought is to be there a couple years down the line, and in the immediate future, come off the bench. It was a strategic buy to take away talent from a competitor now so that you don't have to face him on the pitch.
I personally think Götze is better than Kroos and it also depends on what Pep wants to play. If he wants to establish a more Barca-esque system with a false 9 then Götze will be even more valuable. Also there's quite a huge questionmark behind Robben.
Also, if Bayern just wanted to hurt Dortmund they could've bought cheaper players. And the effect would've been the same in the end.
It's just normal football life. Big clubs take the good players from the not so good clubs and those take the players from even worse clubs. Not like Dortmund didnt buy Kirch, who is now either a bench warmer or not even in the team, even though he was a regular in Kaiserslautern. They surely would've benefited from him in the 2nd league, but that's something completely different since it's Dortmund poaching from lesser clubs.
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On April 24 2013 03:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Reus developed in Dortmund. Dortmund is his original club.
He was given away because we wasn't deemed worthy for playing in their youth squads anymore, same as Großkreutz. But just leave facts out when they're hurting your fragile arguments, standard stuff.
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On April 24 2013 07:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Furthermore, American sports culture looks down on sellouts quite harshly. Loyalty and integrity comes in when you pay respect to the franchise that first used a draft pick on you or took the risk to sign you if you went undrafted. Players that just sell out on promising teams to go win easy championships or go after the big bucks (especially if it's to a rival) are actually criticized quite harshly (Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Brett Favre, Albert Pujols, etc.).
And no one looks down on sellouts in Europe? Was no one upset when RVP left, when Na$ri left, when Ronaldo left, when Ozil left, et cetera? Did you look down on Shinji Kagawa for leaving Japan to play for Dortmund? Or Ilkay Gundogan for leaving Nurnburg to play for Dortmund? Or Robert Lewandowski for leaving Poland to play for Dortmund? Do you even football?
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On April 24 2013 09:06 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 07:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Furthermore, American sports culture looks down on sellouts quite harshly. Loyalty and integrity comes in when you pay respect to the franchise that first used a draft pick on you or took the risk to sign you if you went undrafted. Players that just sell out on promising teams to go win easy championships or go after the big bucks (especially if it's to a rival) are actually criticized quite harshly (Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Brett Favre, Albert Pujols, etc.). And no one looks down on sellouts in Europe? Was no one upset when RVP left, when Na$ri left, when Ronaldo left, when Ozil left, et cetera? Did you look down on Shinji Kagawa for leaving Japan to play for Dortmund? Or Ilkay Gundogan for leaving Nurnburg to play for Dortmund? Or Robert Lewandowski for leaving Poland to play for Dortmund? Do you even football?
The entire point is that selling out is a common occurrence in football and not in American sports. Transfers like that happen multiple times a transfer window. Also, half of the transfers that you mentioned weren't sellouts at all.
RVP was a sellout, but it only gives more weight to my point. The only people that were upset were Arsenal; the rest of the footballing world just went, "eh". And besides, it still isn't nearly as bad as the Goetze case.
A lot of German fans were pissed at Ozil leaving, but it's still even close to the same.
Kagawa wasn't some superstar that BVB poached; Kagawa was a young, up-and-coming talent with a lot of potential that BVB took and developed into a recognizable star in Europe. It was the same situation with Gundogan and Lewandowski. In fact, if you know your history, you would know that Dortmund wasn't a powerhouse in any sense when they acquired any of the players that they currently have; they went nearly bankrupt about a decade ago and prior to 2011 hadn't won anything in about a decade. They still aren't a financial powerhouse, having significantly less money than Bayern and even less money than Schalke.
I'm just not even going to continue explaining this. You are just being willfully ignorant and completely failing to understand the very intuitive concept of a sellout. This isn't rocket science, and you're just being difficult so you can come up with some convoluted criticisms that don't hold any weight.
He was given away because we wasn't deemed worthy for playing in their youth squads anymore, same as Großkreutz. But just leave facts out when they're hurting your fragile arguments, standard stuff.
So? He was still born and bred in Dortmund. Also, buying Reus was still a huge gamble, as it wasn't known that he would perform so fantastically at BVB (he didn't perform even close to this well at Gladbach - he just showed a lot of potential). Really, Reus wasn't actually a sellout in any sense.
But leave out facts just so you can be an arrogant. smug little asshole, standard stuff.
I personally think Götze is better than Kroos and it also depends on what Pep wants to play. If he wants to establish a more Barca-esque system with a false 9 then Götze will be even more valuable. Also there's quite a huge questionmark behind Robben.
Also, if Bayern just wanted to hurt Dortmund they could've bought cheaper players. And the effect would've been the same in the end.
It's just normal football life. Big clubs take the good players from the not so good clubs and those take the players from even worse clubs. Not like Dortmund didnt buy Kirch, who is now either a bench warmer or not even in the team, even though he was a regular in Kaiserslautern. They surely would've benefited from him in the 2nd league, but that's something completely different since it's Dortmund poaching from lesser clubs.
I think that's a pretty bold claim to say that Goetze is better than Kroos. Kroos has turned out to be an incredible player over the past calendar year or so.
Your second statement makes no sense. Obviously it hurts if you buy what is probably seen as the most promising young talent on a competitor's team as opposed to a but of fringe role players. Role players can be replaced more easily; key players cannot.
Finally, just because it's normal doesn't mean it's ok.
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On April 24 2013 08:48 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 06:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
What reason was there to buy Goetze? What massive hole does he fill in the Bayern team that Reus filled in Dortmund?
Answer: None. The only reason that Goetze was bought is to be there a couple years down the line, and in the immediate future, come off the bench. It was a strategic buy to take away talent from a competitor now so that you don't have to face him on the pitch. I personally think Götze is better than Kroos and it also depends on what Pep wants to play. If he wants to establish a more Barca-esque system with a false 9 then Götze will be even more valuable. Also there's quite a huge questionmark behind Robben. Also, if Bayern just wanted to hurt Dortmund they could've bought cheaper players. And the effect would've been the same in the end. It's just normal football life. Big clubs take the good players from the not so good clubs and those take the players from even worse clubs. Not like Dortmund didnt buy Kirch, who is now either a bench warmer or not even in the team, even though he was a regular in Kaiserslautern. They surely would've benefited from him in the 2nd league, but that's something completely different since it's Dortmund poaching from lesser clubs.
I have to agree with Zocat. Klopp said he talked to Götze and the situation was "Guardiola wanted Götze, Götze wanted to play under Guardiola, Bayern could make it happen." For all we know Guardiola could have said "I sign that treaty but you know what? That Götze guy has a clause. BRING HIM!"
Bayern does not invest into becoming much stronger. They invest into staying as strong while changing there whole system. From that perspective it's the right decision to buy Götze because he seems to fit that system better than Gomes does. It's absolutely not necessary when you have a team as dominating as Bayern right now but they thought it was the best decision for the future and as it's Bayern they're most likely right.
Dortmund now needs to find another Piszcek, another Lewandowski, another Kagawa, another Hummels to stay competitive. Good players who might get awesome really fast, who do not know yet about the millions they could earn in London, Munich, Madrid and Milan. The team will stop running at one point in the future when there are no alternatives and the best ones have to play 50+ games a season. And here the money from a Götze transfer might come in handy. Ronaldo won't make the team much stronger in the Bundesliga. A broader roster that allows pauses and forgives an injury or two does. Sadly guys like Kirch can help against Hoffenheim, Fürth and Augsburg (all important games when your prime aim is to qualify for the Champions League) but they aren't good enough (yet) to play internationally.
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So looks like Arsenal may have found their defensive midfielder, Maxime Gonalons of Lyon. Everything I can find about him online mentions that he is great on the ball and at passing, and according to whoscored.com he averages 3.8 tackles per game (4th most in Ligue 1) and 87.8% pass completion, so he isn't afraid of making a challenge. And people seem to like him more than Capoue (who, comparatively, averages 2.4 tackles per game and 80.8% pass completion), plus Gonalons already has experience playing in Europe. Seems like a great fit for Arsenal (plus he's 6'2", so he has even more of what our midfield lacks: height).
![[image loading]](http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/003/010/814/hi-res-162273768_display_image.jpg?1362071929)
PLEASE SIGN HIM UP WENGER
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People seem to place a little too much emotional attachments to players and their clubs. Football is a career for these players, not just a game. Moving to another club is just them seeking a "promotion".
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EPT
