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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 16 2013 00:05 WillyWanker wrote:
You're comparing 4 months stats, how is that long enough to judge the skill of a player or a team? You just take these 4 months because they are the only one giving you arguments in this case, while the 3 last seasons are working against you.
So you can tell me last seasons don't count, but still you're bringing the 3/4 english teams in the CL years ago? So convenient!
This seasons 4 spanish team in the 1/8 finals, while there are 2 English team and it's looking rather grim for them.
They put midfielders because they don't have more players to put CB. At the start of the season they only had 2 young players, Fontas and Bartra, Fontas is bad (and left the club) and Bartra just came from 2nd division. Barcelona's young policy has always been smart, they never throw in young players and burn them by exposing them too much, so they put more experienced players on the field even if they don't play at their best position.
Additionally, you can argue that it's more the management of a group of persons than a tactical decision; putting players like Mascherano or Song as CB is better than putting them on the bench where they would see 17-18 years old guys playing instead of them. The same way that Keita was always the first to enter in the midfield and not Thiago, or like Essien is playing RB instead of a youngster from Madrid's cantera.
Chelsea victory in CL last year was a huge fluke, they didn't deserve (strong word, but that's my opinion) to win against Barcelona and Bayern, they had the luckiest games possible. Good for them, but their performance couldn't hide the 2 Manchester teams failures. This year we also have 2 english teams out after the group phase.
About Alba/Abidal, they're very different, Abidal at his top level would put Alba on the bench for a tactical balance reason. Right now, Barcelona is playing with 2 very offensive side defenders and that means less people to deal with counter attacking because they're soooo high on the field; yet another reason to explain these 20 goals conceded.
Mascherano, Puyol, Piqué, and even the Abidal of the 2010-2011 season, are all very top tier CB. They may not have the qualities you seem to prefer on a CB, but they are exactly what Barcelona needs: intelligence, anticipation and technical skills.
You obviously miss understood what i was meaning to say, i said you can't discuss the certain years you are, and then i stated that if you are going to add in those previous seasons you could say well Enlgish teams dominated this period, etcetc.
We shall discuss 12-13 season, and that is it. It is the fairest way
Ok i can honestly say i did not know Bartra was a youth prospect xD. But it is still Barca's on doing that they have no other CBs than Puyol and Pique! They obviously classify Masch as one which is silly as he isn't a CB!
So your saying technical skills intelligence and anticipation out rank, strength, abiltiy to challenge in the air and good old fashioned slide tackling? Forget that your on about 10-11 season, which they arguably might not of got their if the Chelsea game was reffed right  (lawl) then they still didn't defend properly, couldn't deal with Chelsea's pace or strength on the counter attack nor set pieces. Like you said they do well in the league, which i guess can priority number 1 for the team, but to do well in Europe you need to adapt your game, and Barca pretty much don't. Your trying to put across the point of Abidal being a better defender than Alba, which imo he isn't due to one fact that Alba's speed should get him back into position the way Ashley Cole does. But even if that was true, they still conceded many a goal with Abidal in the team aswell in Europe.
Barcelona may even go on to win this champions league and shut all my accusations up but as of right now, Barca's defending is lackluster due their unbalanced back line. No pace, no aerial dominance and no brute strength. Sure they can play it out from the back...but what about when a team is running at them...it happens in every game, atleast 3-4 chances of a counter against you. That could be 0 goals, 1,2,3 or even 4 if they were crazily unlucky. Or do you make your own luck?
Ill just add, all the "luck" chelsea had last year in the champions league was easily balanced up with all the unlucky incidents they have had against them in champions league, and theirs shit loads. Also this season we have had everything happen against us like we did to the other teams, Most noteably, QPR and Swansea recently.
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You're talking about 2008-09 controversial game in Stanford Bridge, 10-11 was the semi vs Real Madrid and the 3-1 Final vs MU. It's not so long ago!
Piqué and Puyol are also strong in the air, and good at tackling even though they tend to not tackle except for the situations that really need it.
Barcelona is the team that makes the opponents adapt to their playstyle, not the opposite, and this is the sign of a great team. 'To do well in Europe', 2 semis that were really really close and 2 titles, in 4 years, how is that not doing well?
Abidal runs faster than Alba I'm pretty sure, he's one of the fastest defenders, I don't know if you saw him or just don't remember him good. During 2011 he was just godlike in LB and in CB, that's part of the reason why the socios love him so much. His first years were meh but he became really really good.
I agree with you, RIGHT NOW their back line isn't balanced, Alba + Alves is too much, I prefer Alba + Adriano/Montoya that are playing lower on the field. But they excel in anticipation and patience, and that makes up for their lack of strength in many situations. Anyway like it has been said before, this back 4 wouldn't succeed in many teams, but again, Barcelona isn't any team :D:D:D I still see no team able to compete against Barcelona in Europe; maybe Bayern but I haven't been following them so much so I can't say, other teams are too far.
Chelsea may have lacked luck this season, but I doubt they'll succeed in anything before a 'real' (not temporary or hated) coach comes. Their gameplan is non existent and they rely on young players to make the difference which is not a good thing. It worked for several games at the start of the season, but you can't hope young players to have regular performances, the CL is a good example. English teams in general are a lot weaker than several years ago, I don't know the reason, but any time I watch the PL, I never can predict the result because they're so tactically flawed that any team can win. Lots of entertainment but poor quality.
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On January 16 2013 00:05 WillyWanker wrote:
You're comparing 4 months stats, how is that long enough to judge the skill of a player or a team? You just take these 4 months because they are the only one giving you arguments in this case, while the 3 last seasons are working against you.
So you can tell me last seasons don't count, but still you're bringing the 3/4 english teams in the CL years ago? So convenient!
This seasons 4 spanish team in the 1/8 finals, while there are 2 English team and it's looking rather grim for them.
They put midfielders because they don't have more players to put CB. At the start of the season they only had 2 young players, Fontas and Bartra, Fontas is bad (and left the club) and Bartra just came from 2nd division. Barcelona's young policy has always been smart, they never throw in young players and burn them by exposing them too much, so they put more experienced players on the field even if they don't play at their best position.
Additionally, you can argue that it's more the management of a group of persons than a tactical decision; putting players like Mascherano or Song as CB is better than putting them on the bench where they would see 17-18 years old guys playing instead of them. The same way that Keita was always the first to enter in the midfield and not Thiago, or like Essien is playing RB instead of a youngster from Madrid's cantera.
Chelsea victory in CL last year was a huge fluke, they didn't deserve (strong word, but that's my opinion) to win against Barcelona and Bayern, they had the luckiest games possible. Good for them, but their performance couldn't hide the 2 Manchester teams failures. This year we also have 2 english teams out after the group phase.
About Alba/Abidal, they're very different, Abidal at his top level would put Alba on the bench for a tactical balance reason. Right now, Barcelona is playing with 2 very offensive side defenders and that means less people to deal with counter attacking because they're soooo high on the field; yet another reason to explain these 20 goals conceded.
Mascherano, Puyol, Piqué, and even the Abidal of the 2010-2011 season, are all very top tier CB. They may not have the qualities you seem to prefer on a CB, but they are exactly what Barcelona needs: intelligence, anticipation and technical skills.
Are you fucking kidding? Chelsea beat Barcelona over a two-leg semifinal and beat Bayern in Munich. Are you really that bitter? Because the only way that you could say that Chelsea didn't deserve that win is if you're fucking delusional and a complete hater. You don't luck yourself through a two-leg semifinal and then a championship game at your opponent's home stadium.
Chelsea may have lacked luck this season, but I doubt they'll succeed in anything before a 'real' (not temporary or hated) coach comes. Their gameplan is non existent and they rely on young players to make the difference which is not a good thing. It worked for several games at the start of the season, but you can't hope young players to have regular performances, the CL is a good example. English teams in general are a lot weaker than several years ago, I don't know the reason, but any time I watch the PL, I never can predict the result because they're so tactically flawed that any team can win. Lots of entertainment but poor quality.
Chelsea's in the gutter for a while now. We have to put up with an idiot owner and a staff that fires the manager at the slightest hint of problems (while hiring a manager that no one likes), while at the same time refusing to re-sign Lampard, who is one of the greatest Chelsea players ever and still shows us why he's so fucking good.
This club's a damn train wreck.
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On January 16 2013 00:05 WillyWanker wrote:
Chelsea victory in CL last year was a huge fluke, they didn't deserve (strong word, but that's my opinion)
That is a strong word. And unfair. Unless Chelsea was gifted wins due to bad refereeing, it wasn't undeserved. They defended amazingly both games, played to their strengths, and had incredible finishing. Every goal Drogba scored was good. Bayern looked much better than Barca by the way. I have rewatched that game with Barca and it makes me facepalm at how one dimensional they are in the game. They spend the entire second half trying to pass back and forth around and around. Not one single physical player able to contest balls and receive crosses until they bring Puyol in the 90th minute. Chelsea gave Barca the wings for free and Barca did nothing at all. And Messi missed a pen. Sure the better team was Barca but that doesn't mean Chelsea didn't deserve the win. Especially when you have a goal like the one Ramires scored. God damn that was an audacious pass + goal. Lampard is a top top quality passer.
And like the guy above says, two legs and a final in the opponent's home stadium. That's incredible and not undeserving. Also, Cech diving every way in the pens. Would have been unfair if he DIDN'T save a pen there.
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On January 16 2013 01:06 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +They may not have the qualities you seem to prefer on a CB, but they are exactly what Barcelona needs: intelligence, anticipation and technical skills. A world-class centre-back could leave Barcelona and do a job in any top-class back line in the world. A good centre-back for Barcelona =/= a world-class centre-back. Take Puyol, Barcelona's excuse for the archetypal slow, strong centre-back who is good in the air and good at winning tackles. Despite possessing some of these qualities to a fair degree, he would never in a million years displace a Vidic or a Kompany or a Terry. Ever. He's not a world-class centre-back. He is good for Barcelona's style of play because, like I already said, they essentially defend by making it so that they don't have to defend, by which I mean maintaining possession of the ball and pressing high up the pitch. To be honest, you could play two wingers and two centre-midfielders across Barcelona's back line and it probably wouldn't make much difference. They don't play with a style that requires solid centre-backs, nor do they play in a league that requires that style of centre-back.
Put Terry in la Liga and he wouldn't be as effective. You're playing with words it's funny, they're in the starting 11 of the best team in the world, they're f*ing World Class.
Btw, you have to judge the CB duo and not one by one. Piqué is skilled technically, good vision, tall and good tackling technique and anticipation; Puyol is stronger and can go fighting, still is good in the air, and tackles alright. This is a really good combination. I don't know the terms in english but one can be considered as a 'libero' (Piqué) and the other as a 'stoppeur' in French, who is more physical (Puyol).
This duo led Spain to the World Cup with very few goals conceded, and Piqué was in the starting 11 with Ramos in the European Cup, against with few goals conceded. I don't know what you need to realize that they are "World Class" defenders...
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Puyol maybe is old now, But he has been one of the best defenders of Barcelona History.
He has been so solid defending all this years, and personally my favourite player ever. He is now 34 years, and after 2 years of injures in a row, and he is still more solid defending that Pique and Mascherano in my opinion. Barcelona will miss Puyol so much in the future. I just love Puyol, he has more than 10 scars in his body, he fights until the end and loves the team almost more than his life. I still remember when He was bleeding and he wanted to continue playing without stop, and the referee had to stop him.
Furthermore, Maybe Adriano or Jordi Alba are not the best wings defending in the world, but they are great attacking. They have scored lot of goals this year (adriano 5 goals in league is awesome), and they generate lot of attacking power. It is just Barcelona style. They are not luckluster, they are the best wings for Barcelona style and they do their job perfect.
And finally, 14 players have scored in "La liga" in 19 matches. You can see how offensive and risky Barcelona style is when almost all the players have scored. It is quite Total Football, Pedro for example defends a lot and he is always running, I have seen Pedro in Barcelona area defending lot of times.
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On January 16 2013 01:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Are you fucking kidding? Chelsea beat Barcelona over a two-leg semifinal and beat Bayern in Munich. Are you really that bitter? Because the only way that you could say that Chelsea didn't deserve that win is if you're fucking delusional and a complete hater. You don't luck yourself through a two-leg semifinal and then a championship game at your opponent's home stadium.
Big words big words, from a Chelsea fan obviously :D
2 games, 4 shots, 3 goals vs maybe 30 shots 2 goals. Sure they defended like bosses, but Messi missed a penalty, and basically Barcelona missed everything in these 2 games. In the final, Bayern missed a penalty as well and Chelsea was on the backfoot almost all game long. It's like this Champions League was meant to be theirs, nothing could happen to them even though they played so bad with a billionaire team. By the way I said it was my opinion, you can think whatever you want, don't call me delusional, many people share my opinion. When Chelsea won that Semi final it was like karma for 2008-09, they absolutely didn't deserve to win regardless of my fanboyism for Barcelona.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
ROFL
This thread just blew up
<3 all Chelsea fans on TL, i love you so :D
PS. Just got an invite to Stamford Bridge for a Europa League game in a box!! Oh yeah, Panda is going corporate! First time corporate at the bridge, can't wait to see how close the box is to Roman's! Or how amazing the food is :3
Also mr Willy, i think we came to a conclusion in our discussion. Think we both are pretty close to eachothers views and both have taken on board eachothers statements.
Let the best man win at the end of the season as to whether Barcelona have been world class defensively at the back or not.
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Ok I'm not reading all those walls of texts, but I see some guys think Barça's back line is not world class... I laughed and almost lost my Mikado.
Hell we even used Touré in the CB spot when we had no other choices. That guy left because Busquets is better and wonder what, he is the best player in ManCity, winner of premier league and one of the best Premier midfielders.
All our defenders are not only world class at defending, they are great with the ball at their feet. That's the most important skill to have to play in the team. Puyol is the only exception, and that's because he is motherfucking Puyol.
Rant: Also wtf spanish teams might be lame but they can make a serious teammork effort and make a line of 4 defenders to cause offsides. English teams lack that kind of discipline. I love premier and it's much more fun to watch than the average spanish game (and overall better and stronger as a league), but you back players cant make a decent line for their lifes. It's like watching childs playing, all teams running up and down.
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By the way, for the bad defending and bitterness lovers, there is a Real Madrid-Valencia tonight 9pm that should be promising. Or you could just look at balls flying at 300m of altitude by watching the Arsenal-Swansea around the same time.
For the crazies, there is this french cup game Saint Etienne - Lille in which you will be able to observe perfect defending and non-existent attacking (one being a cause, the other the consequence, find out which is which!!!)
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Don't know what you mean by 300m of altitude, but i hope you mean fast paced good football. As Arsenal and Swansea are probably the best two passing teams in the premiership ? xD
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I am sorry, can you enlighten me and convert these 300m into whatever unit of height you use in this strange county of yours, so I can correct my previous statement and not offend you?
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On January 16 2013 01:38 WillyWanker wrote:
By the way, for the bad defending and bitterness lovers, there is a Real Madrid-Valencia tonight 9pm that should be promising. Or you could just look at balls flying at 300m of altitude by watching the Arsenal-Swansea around the same time.
For the crazies, there is this french cup game Saint Etienne - Lille in which you will be able to observe perfect defending and non-existent attacking (one being a cause, the other the consequence, find out which is which!!!)
Not only do you reveal your ignorance of Premier League, you also got the dates wrong.
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Man oh man it's difficult to make people get jokes these days <_< Should implement a [/joke] or something here
Tonight Arsenal-Swansea 8.45, am I wrong?
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Red card from Kompany rescinded(sp?). A bit surprised to be honest, it was a fair challenge but I've seen similar red cards kept on the basis of the FA wanting to "crack down" on such tackles.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 16 2013 02:13 Ysellian wrote:
Red card from Kompany rescinded(sp?). A bit surprised to be honest, it was a fair challenge but I've seen similar red cards kept on the basis of the FA wanting to "crack down" on such tackles.
Indeed i was very suprised at that too! They normally stick by the ref 99% of the time, even when it is not a red. That it quite silly.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On January 16 2013 01:57 Sated wrote:
Spain also play in a manner that does not rely on their CBs having solid defensive play, instead relying on the team's ability to keep the ball. They defend by not having to defend. Puyol and Pique work in that kind of formation and they do a good job for club and country, but it does not make them good at defending.
Barca's defenders use and require a different class of skills due to the domination of the ball. Even the goalkeeper gets more touches and requires some skill on the ball. Using Pique and Puyol in an English system is a woeful mismatch of talent of need, but just because other teams can't utilize players to their fullest doesn't mean that the players themselves aren't world class.
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EPT
