EPTAt the moment, Piqué is the best of the three. Masche last season was BEAST.
2012 - 2013 Football Thread! - Page 218
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
At the moment, Piqué is the best of the three. Masche last season was BEAST. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 15 2013 20:00 WillyWanker wrote: And 65 goals just counting la Liga. Yeah they take risks and they concede goals. That doesn't prove that they are bad defenders sorry bro. 1 year ago when they had Abidal with Puyol and Pique, they never conceded goals, they went something like 50-0 in term of goals in the New Camp before a team managed to put a goal there. This year they've even tried Song and Adriano as CB, you can't judge the numbers, AND STILL they are the 2nd defense of la Liga behind Malaga. Btw, the best defense Malaga just took 3 goals by Barcelona and could have taken more, does that make them bad at defending? You don't seem to understand that they play so risky that any counter offensive can be a goal for the other side because everyone is involved to score a goal... As I said, I would have loved to see the 'mighty' Vidic-Ferdinand or Ramos-Pepe playing in Barcelona with this style, they would 'fail' as much as our actual defenders if not more. They are 3rd best, behind Atletico Madrid, who play similarly to Barcelona but have a decent solid back 4.... Malaga 16 goals conceded A.Madrid 18 goals conceded R.Madrid/Barcelona 20goals conceded Source So, your saying every counter attack against barcelona is more than likely going to end up as a goal "because of the way they play", yet everyone is telling me they are a good defensive unit? :S On January 15 2013 20:13 Salteador Neo wrote: IMO in the past 2 years, Puyol, Piqué and Mascherano have all been the best CB in the world at some points :D At the moment, Piqué is the best of the three. Masche last season was BEAST. You troll you  Take those beer goggles off | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
PD: Not trolling lol. Call me bias, I really think that :D I'm good enough to say Ramos is a beast too, being a barça fan and all. | ||
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BeaTeR
Kazakhstan4130 Posts
Piazon went on loan to spain, hope he gets some playtime there, the guy seems really talanted. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Puyol though, like JT, need to be in their teams for their sheer presence and organizing skills at set peices, also they pop up with goals from attacking set pieces too. But for the likes of Mascherano, Pique, and whoever elese Barcelona think of playing CB, they are just not good enough to be there for that team. You could argue they need to find a young CB with pace to sit alongside Puyol (like Carvalho, who made JT look good at times) to help him out. Their was rumours in the summer of a possible bid from Barca for Luiz, which might not of been all that bad as his pace would help out Puyol, but in terms of out and out defending, Luiz is not "world class" either. Still getting off the point a bit there. Puyol was world class, now he is just good, as for the rest, no they are poor central defenders (especially as this current moment in time) | ||
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hns
Germany609 Posts
Edit: There're very similiar discussions for basically every position, though. Is a striker "better" if he scores a lot of goals but does not take part in play itself too much, or is he better if he's constantly there for passing and assisting others (while, of course, still scoring some)? Is a goalie better because he's good with the ball and able to create plays with long, exact throws etc. or is he better when he's basically a monster on the goalline, but not too great with the ball? | ||
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
On January 15 2013 20:35 Pandemona wrote: They are 3rd best, behind Atletico Madrid, who play similarly to Barcelona but have a decent solid back 4.... Malaga 16 goals conceded A.Madrid 18 goals conceded R.Madrid/Barcelona 20goals conceded My bad, I was looking at the Zamora trophy for that (least goals conceded by a goalkeeper). Anyway, back to my point: Atletico took 4 against Barcelona and just scored 1, does that mean that their defense is even more terrible than Barca's? They play possibly the most offensive football on the planet and still manage to be in the top defenses of their league. And I may have been wrong for this year, but the last 3 seasons they were the best defense at the end, and you will see that Barcelona will be the best defense again this year. You seem really biased and only talk about Premier League, I figure you don't watch so many games of Barcelona. 'Piquenbauer' is not a random nickname, you clearly think that a defender should be a brute that stops everything, but football has changed, and if there is a strong football culture right now, it's not the english one (Premier League + National team), it's the spanish one. Teams are changing tactically to look like Barcelona, or at least to propose some different football than just throw the ball and hope for a goal from your big-ass Carroll-like 9. Look at the top two german teams, Bayern and Dortmund, they have really strong defensive players with Boateng, Badstuber, Van Buyten (+ Lahm and newcomers like Alaba on the sides) for Bayern, Subotic and Hummels for Dortmund, and still they concede so many goals, because all they try to do is score more than the opponents. Edit: what the guy before said. Edit 2: just saw the 'who play similarly to Barcelona' talking about Atletico. Well that just confirms you don't watch Spanish league. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
I also again saw the argument '20 goals conceded while they play Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid twice a year' while it's pretty obvious to me at least that the top 8 of La Liga >> the top 8 of the PL. Other teams are just so easily overlooked by the fact that the top 2 are just so dominant, except for Real Madrid this year, but that actually also tells a good tale. Atletico didn't even make CL last year. Nothing much has changed except for getting Falcao. Real Madrid, while arguably the second best team in the world, is struggling in La Liga. It's a waayyy tougher league than the PL-followers tend to believe. | ||
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
David Luiz wouldn't be good in Barcelona, he has no sense of collective work and tactical sacrifice, he's just a crazy brazilian guy with lots of hairs :p | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
It was injury time and they were playing with everyone forward to try to get a goal because they were 1 down. There weren't any defenders back there to stop that goal. Obviously that goal would not happen if they were ahead or on equal terms. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
The points are their that Atleitco play like Barcelona. Atletico high press, from Falcao himself back to the centre halves. They squeeze the play as much as they can, pushing a high line as possible. BUT, they do not keep the ball as much as Barcelona, but name a team in the world that does? The other basis are there, get the ball down, play fast flowing football, and provide service to one of the worlds most inform strikers in Falcao. They do wonderful sweeping counter attacks when they are not in position, and imo, have a stronger back 4 than Barca do. Godin is a great centre back, strong in the air as well on the ground, and he has pace. Miranda is also a great centre half with great strength and awareness. Their fullbacks are better defensively, but i'll concede that they are weaker offensively. JuanFran is pretty good though. You just wrote a paragraph providing more points to how weak Barcelona's back 4 are compared to others. Namely the Bayern/Dortmund references. And again you provide incorrect facts. Bayern have conceded 7 goals, JUST 7 GOALS, in 17 league games, that is quite a good feat. 0.4 goals per game. Barca's was 0.8 and you could argue the gulf in opponents is different too... Dortmund in the league haven't started to well, but in the champions league they are doing great, and have come back into the title race in bundesliga too. They have conceded 20 goals in their 17 league games which is pretty poor i'll admit, but they haven't been playing "amazing" and suffered a few surprising defeats to teams they should of beat. Maybe it was due to injuries, or maybe they just simply haven't being playing well enough after champions league games (many drops points seemed to been after champs league games) But back to the point of discussion. Barcelona back 4, is not as good as Bayerns, Dortmunds, or any of the top sides in the premiership. And in the answer to the "what is a good CB", you kinda answered/contradicted your own point their, as you mentioned "what is better" on the striker front, and you said in both points, one that scores goals, or one that scores goals and assists. Well the difference their is, a world class striker and a good striker. On the Pique being nicknamed or even mentioned in the same breath as Beckenbauer is quite disrespectful, im pretty sure if you ask Mr Beckenbauer himself, does he compare himself to Pique he would probably walk away in disgust....So lets not discuss that point xD On January 15 2013 21:57 Twisted wrote: I also think Mascherano is playing fantastically as CB btw. Given the arguments already posted, he intercepts a LOT. I also again saw the argument '20 goals conceded while they play Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid twice a year' while it's pretty obvious to me at least that the top 8 of La Liga >> the top 8 of the PL. Other teams are just so easily overlooked by the fact that the top 2 are just so dominant, except for Real Madrid this year, but that actually also tells a good tale. Atletico didn't even make CL last year. Nothing much has changed except for getting Falcao. Real Madrid, while arguably the second best team in the world, is struggling in La Liga. It's a waayyy tougher league than the PL-followers tend to believe. Yes he intercepts the ball really well i agree, but that is due to him being a defensive midfielder...That was his job he did at a world class level for Liverpool. Running around nibbling players ankles, intercepting passes, then giving it to Alonso to ping a 40yarder to Torres/Gerrard and then they would score, that is what Masch does well. Can he win a ball in the air vs an on coming CB/ST from an opposing team in set pieces, no he defiantly can't. Is he strong enough or more tactically aware than other CBs around the world, no he defiantly is not. On January 15 2013 21:59 Twisted wrote: lol 'good' argument, the Torres goal. It was injury time and they were playing with everyone forward to try to get a goal because they were 1 down. There weren't any defenders back there to stop that goal. Obviously that goal would not happen if they were ahead or on equal terms. Yeah but the Drogba goal was pretty much similar sort of positional problems. Messi lost the ball in the middle of the pitch, not even very high. Busquets lamely pressures Lampard, the ball is swept out wide where Alves is no where to be seen. Ramires sweeps a low cross in which takes out one CB as the other is not in shot and Drogba slides the ball home from the oncoming challenge from Xavi (who was the only one busting a gut to get back). That was not good defending I guess in a sense i should agree with Sated more than put my view across. Barca's defenders are good for their game/playstyle but would not be good in other peoples style. Is probably the best you will get from me xD | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
On January 15 2013 22:17 Pandemona wrote: You just wrote a paragraph providing more points to how weak Barcelona's back 4 are compared to others. Namely the Bayern/Dortmund references. And again you provide incorrect facts. Bayern have conceded 7 goals, JUST 7 GOALS, in 17 league games, that is quite a good feat. 0.4 goals per game. Barca's was 0.8 and you could argue the gulf in opponents is different too... Yeah this year is exceptional, and we are only mid season, please look at entire seasons, you will see that with the same players as this year, Bayern has been doing worse in goal conceded/game ratio than Barcelona. And saying that the average german team is better than the average spanish is just so untrue. Reminder: 5 out of 8 teams in the European cups semi finals last year were.... Spanish! Dortmund in the league haven't started to well, but in the champions league they are doing great, and have come back into the title race in bundesliga too. They have conceded 20 goals in their 17 league games which is pretty poor i'll admit, but they haven't been playing "amazing" and suffered a few surprising defeats to teams they should of beat. Maybe it was due to injuries, or maybe they just simply haven't being playing well enough after champions league games (many drops points seemed to been after champs league games) LOL, so it's applicable for Dortmund but not Barcelona? Since Abidal's injury, Barcelona hasn't had the chance to play with their best back 4 which his Abidal Puyol Pique Alves. THIS YEAR, they've conceded a huge amount of goals: almost as much in half a season as in any last 3 entire season. THIS YEAR, they put Song, Bartra, Busquets and even Adriano as center back because of injuries, how is that not bad for your defense? AND STILL, they are the 3rd defense of the league while scoring almost as much as the 1st and 2nd best defense together. But back to the point of discussion. Barcelona back 4, is not as good as Bayerns, Dortmunds, or any of the top sides in the premiership. You are so biased it's unbelievable. The english teams are at their lowest level since 10 years and you're still saying this. You seem to despise La Liga, saying that teams can't give Barcelona a challenge. And you seem to love your english football culture, which is alright as long as you don't preach it to everyone, but let's be honest, English football is getting worse and worse. I never finish a game in the Premier League because even top teams are so poor tactically that it makes me sad. But you are right on something, Busquets, Piqué etc.. wouldn't probably fit a league where you can gut a guy and just get a reprimand from Webb-like referees.. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
A few seasons ago, England were dominating the champions league. We had 3 out of 4 teams in the semi final and reached the final on multiples year in a row. Last season we thought we would have a Madrid vs Barca final, we did not, we had a German vs English final....Not a spanish final, the spanish teams were "dominating" that other european competition no one really cares about. (Maybe that is just the English mentality of it due to the nature of how it is played, but in honesety it is a worst off competition) Abidal is a LB, and is not as good as the replacement Barcelona have in Alba, that guy was awesome in the Euros and rightfully deserved his spot in the Barcelona team. He has been fine. And i also said "might" of been due to injuries, im not sure if Dortmund had any, but to go from being so good in the league to not so good the following season was just a bit strange. I do not follow Bundesliga very closely, just see a few results here and there. Barcelona ALWAYS put midfielders into defense because as like Sated said, they prefer players at the back who can play football, and can help with the passing game. They are not going to put in a CB when they think the others are better suited for the passing style. Thats through choice not through "injuries" (in a sense, as they have youngster CBs im sure but they don't choose to play them there, prefer to play RB/CMs OR DMs there) What is wrong with comparing Bayern with Barcelona now? I don't understand what is wrong with saying Bayern have conceded 7 goals in the league and Barcelona 20 goals in the league all be it Barcelona have played 19 games vs Bayern's 17. I'll add champions league comparisions for you. Bayern - Conceded 7 goals in 6 games Barcelona Conceded 5 goals in 6 games Bayern 14goals conceded in 24 games Barcelona 25goals conceded in 25 games. It's not looking so well. (Also in the champions league, Bayern scored more and had a better goal difference than Barca) | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
So you can tell me last seasons don't count, but still you're bringing the 3/4 english teams in the CL years ago? So convenient! This seasons 4 spanish team in the 1/8 finals, while there are 2 English team and it's looking rather grim for them. They put midfielders because they don't have more players to put CB. At the start of the season they only had 2 young players, Fontas and Bartra, Fontas is bad (and left the club) and Bartra just came from 2nd division. Barcelona's young policy has always been smart, they never throw in young players and burn them by exposing them too much, so they put more experienced players on the field even if they don't play at their best position. Additionally, you can argue that it's more the management of a group of persons than a tactical decision; putting players like Mascherano or Song as CB is better than putting them on the bench where they would see 17-18 years old guys playing instead of them. The same way that Keita was always the first to enter in the midfield and not Thiago, or like Essien is playing RB instead of a youngster from Madrid's cantera. Chelsea victory in CL last year was a huge fluke, they didn't deserve (strong word, but that's my opinion) to win against Barcelona and Bayern, they had the luckiest games possible. Good for them, but their performance couldn't hide the 2 Manchester teams failures. This year we also have 2 english teams out after the group phase. About Alba/Abidal, they're very different, Abidal at his top level would put Alba on the bench for a tactical balance reason. Right now, Barcelona is playing with 2 very offensive side defenders and that means less people to deal with counter attacking because they're soooo high on the field; yet another reason to explain these 20 goals conceded. Mascherano, Puyol, Piqué, and even the Abidal of the 2010-2011 season, are all very top tier CB. They may not have the qualities you seem to prefer on a CB, but they are exactly what Barcelona needs: intelligence, anticipation and technical skills. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18636 Posts
The year before they conceded not a lot of goals but their CBs were horribad. It's what cost them all their titles. Badstuber/Boateng is not a good combination. Hummels/Subotic on the other hand are almost world class combination | ||
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