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Lmao Barça is actually terrible at fouling. They do it so rarely that when they do, it's so blatatnly obvious it's painful. And they get a sick yellow cards per fouls ratio because of that too.
I would agree on Busquets being the only decent one at it. He also is a tackles magnet, getting yellow cards to the other teams. He keeps the ball in his foot until the very last second possible and his way of moving is just asking to be tackled xD
Barça is most definetly one of the teams with less fouls per game, half of them are because of the opponents' dives and the other half are fair yellow cards 
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On January 15 2013 02:23 Salteador Neo wrote:Lmao Barça is actually terrible at fouling. They do it so rarely that when they do, it's so blatatnly obvious it's painful. And they get a sick yellow cards per fouls ratio because of that too. I would agree on Busquets being the only decent one at it. He also is a tackles magnet, getting yellow cards to the other teams. He keeps the ball in his foot until the very last second possible and his way of moving is just asking to be tackled xD Barça is most definetly one of the teams with less fouls per game, half of them are because of the opponents' dives and the other half are fair yellow cards
I don't think that's evidence, since they basically only foul tactically, they aren't remotely clumsy or casual in actuality, they should be getting a yellow card on almost every foul and the fact that they escape so many is just good disguise. They foul often right after they lose possession in the opponents half which doesn't really look suspicious, but is really strategic.
Just saw this which is sort of a companion to what I'm talking about:
http://soccerlens.com/the-myth-of-barca’s-beautiful-game/70255/
Although I don't agree that it's any reason to bash Barcelona, it's just part of their highly successful style.
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Nope can't agree at all lol, the only one who fouls consistently is Alves. Many say they actually need to foul more. Their tackles are extremely fair in most cases, often too soft.
Dunno if you just watch few barça games, have a different grasp of what is a foul or just dont like the team in general. But not trying to convince you anyway. Let's just agree to disagree.
Btw if Madrid got the ref decisions Barça got in the game vs Málaga, Mou and the presses would be going batshit crazy right now. That hand outside the area by the keeper at the start and the misscalled offside in that goal xD
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 15 2013 01:53 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 01:43 Pandemona wrote:On January 15 2013 01:15 Rebs wrote:On January 14 2013 23:29 Pandemona wrote:
No because that has nothing to do with "fanboyism". Maekele was better at Madrid, when haitike remembers him and agrees with him being the best player in that position.
A DEFENSIVE midfielder is not a player who can ping a 40yard pass to feet. It's a player who can TACKLE and breakdown play, and then restart it quickly for his team. Alonso did not do that much of the "defensive" aspect to his game at Liverpool, that was Mascherano. Masch would break down the play and then offload the ball to Alonso, then Alonso would do the rest, start the play or even go direct and ping a wonderful 40 yard pass.
Busquets does the one side of a defensive midfielder well, the keeping the move going, has good feet, and can spot a pass. What he has yet to prove if he has the physical strength of (we will use Viera as u rate him higher than Makelele) a Viera who could do his job in any league and any international game as he proved. Busquets can only prove this if he does what Makelele did and left to join another league and be as dominant in that team as he is in Barca's but saying that i stand by saying i don't see him dominant many midfields in the champions league, let alone for Spain. He is normally the first player to be subbed for Spain for a reason.....
Also your point about he doesn't have pace...nor did Makelele or Viera, they were world class due to positional sense, another quality a defensive midfielder MUST have, especially a "world class" one.
You didn't provide any point as to why you think Busquets is better apart from saying "he is a young Alonso without the 40yard pass to feet", thus that makes him shit.....as without a 40yard pass in his locker, Alonso is shit. Many Spanish people will also agree on that statement. I didnt provide any point as to why Busquets is better because I dont think hes better. Hes not even close, thats rubbish. I do believe however that you are severely under rating him. Hes got other terrible flaws we all know what they are and they are annoying and at times even sickening but for the most part I tend to ignore that if I see someone just playing well. Other people might not. Im not supposed to be his friend or like him to appreciate things he does well. I dont know what you mean by Xabi Alonso not being a defensive mid and Masch being one. So what if Xabi Alonso played with double pivots alot. Defensive midfielder doesnt mean your just supposed to chase the ball around and clock people. You value breaking up the play alot but I can tell you right now, that in the purest sense a defensive midfielder does not have to be a battler to be a good defensive mid. And its battlers that require "strength and ruggedness." that really depends on how your team plays. Not every team needs a Roy Keane, not even the current side at the club he used to play for. That should be evident enough. Busquets can tackle just aswell as anyone. Xabi Alonso also doesnt get any credit for how good he is because if you ever see him its because he made an aweful tackle that was absurdly late belying his age and lack of pace. I do not believe you need cavemen as defensive mids anymore. Break up play doesnt involve chasing down passes like an annoying runt which is the quality I'm seeing you value alot here. Just so its a bit clearer to me, when you say positioning what do you mean by it ? The reason Busquets lacking pace is a problem is because unlike Vieira or Makelele his team bombs forward often leaving him to plug half the field by himself. You can be the best in the world positioning wise but if an attacker has half the pitch and a yard of pace on you hes just going to kick it by you and run you out of the game. So that considered he does a decentish job. As for him being the first player subbed. I dont even know where you got that or what thats supposed to mean. I always support your points of view Rebs, so please never take any of my posts as attacks or ludacrist fanboy stuff! (Don't know if you were, just saying this out of respect!) I guess the main difference we have is that we value the word defensive midfielder different. I see David Luiz type of midfielder, the Defensive midfield type. Viera like you mentioned as well, an excellent example of a strong, good passing, organizing midfielder. But you only know Barcelona for having Busquets in the side in that position, imagine if they had a young Makelele in that position or even a Viera in that position, would Barca still be as vulnerable to counter attacks as they were then? Watching Chelsea and Real when Makelele was their i know for sure Maka always used to break down counter attacks before they started with well timed tackles or even (many occasions) deliberate fouls and took a yellow card for it. Guess on that point we will never know. The box to box aspect or "chasing" down players as you call it, is a value of a centre midfielder, maybe that is just me and my English mentallity of what i have been bought up watching, but if your not closing down a player, they are going to hurt you. Not matter if your Barcelona,Bayern or Madrid, if you let people at the highest level have time and space they will punish you. I know Barca like to close down together in units, but when you lose the ball you can't do that "straight" away, you need a defensive mid to either A organize, like Viera would or B a Makelele to take a foul and stop the attack dead, i have never seen Busquets do that sort of thing. Busquets for his postion seems way out of place on every counter attack against Barca. He is always way to far up the pitch for me, being more of the Quarterback, to close to the opponents, helping spray the ball from side to side. Instead he should be alot deeper, not 20 yards away from the Striker. When teams counter Barca, Busquets is not in the right position. Lets take this "one" video of the Chelsea goal, i know it is not clear, but Busquets is the first one to close down Lampard after he tackles Messi...Look how he "defends" SourceOther than that, i am not saying he is a bad player, i agree that he has two great feet for passing, and he links up the play well for Barca, giving the ball to either Xavi/Iniesta or even straight to messi. But what i think he lacks is strength/defensive play and a tackle. For me he is a just a less visionary Pirlo, but still good. Yeah I suppose its what you value more. Honestly even a Makelele would struggle when you have half a pitch to cover and say for example a Falcao bombing past you. (Makelele would probably get close enough to foul him. Busquets would be lying in the dirt) still. BAs for teams countering Barca. Thats just how they play. No player on the planet or in history can account for some of the ways they just decided to forget they need to defend. I think hes got a really hard job and he does it well enough.
Indeed i guess we will never know clearly until someone else takes the role up. But i agree he probably has the hardest job of any DM in the world due to Barca back 4 being lackluster and their attacking options not really busting a gut to come back and help in the defensive side.
Plus pace is the key i guess.
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On January 15 2013 01:48 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 20:35 popzags wrote:On January 14 2013 07:16 haitike wrote:
I have a big crush with Iniesta. He is pure magic. This game against Malaga, He has astonished me (again).
Barcelona this year is fucking insane. 55/57 points. The team hast lost 2 points in 19 matches of league. And his playstyle is a lot more fun to watch that last year.
Athletico Madrid with 44 points, any other season they would have been a title contender, and probably they would be in 1st position.
PD: Betis coach, Pepe Mel is a great coach. Iniesta is easily the best player on the planet right now and should've sealed at least 2 Golden Balls out of 4 Messi recieved, but of course he won't because he is bald, scores less goals and has much lesser marketing value among 12-year old football shirt purchasers. Every game Andres is on he makes like 5-8 beautiful, 40-meter passes I doubt Messi - who is, of course, gosu at his own account - will ever be capable to make with similar accuracy. Besides, Iniesta's ball control is at least comparable to Leo's and he contributes much more to defensive side of Barcelona, so in terms of 'bonjwaness' (ugly word, I know) he is on absolute top. If only more people appreciated more complex features of the game than just setting sick goalscoring records... Oh please. Messi is the best player of all time. There's a reason why all the commentators are worshiping him every time he touches the ball. They are watching history in the making. He's deserved all 4 Ballon d'Ors he got.
No, Sneijder deserved the 2010 one.
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On January 15 2013 03:35 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 01:48 TimENT wrote:On January 14 2013 20:35 popzags wrote:On January 14 2013 07:16 haitike wrote:
I have a big crush with Iniesta. He is pure magic. This game against Malaga, He has astonished me (again).
Barcelona this year is fucking insane. 55/57 points. The team hast lost 2 points in 19 matches of league. And his playstyle is a lot more fun to watch that last year.
Athletico Madrid with 44 points, any other season they would have been a title contender, and probably they would be in 1st position.
PD: Betis coach, Pepe Mel is a great coach. Iniesta is easily the best player on the planet right now and should've sealed at least 2 Golden Balls out of 4 Messi recieved, but of course he won't because he is bald, scores less goals and has much lesser marketing value among 12-year old football shirt purchasers. Every game Andres is on he makes like 5-8 beautiful, 40-meter passes I doubt Messi - who is, of course, gosu at his own account - will ever be capable to make with similar accuracy. Besides, Iniesta's ball control is at least comparable to Leo's and he contributes much more to defensive side of Barcelona, so in terms of 'bonjwaness' (ugly word, I know) he is on absolute top. If only more people appreciated more complex features of the game than just setting sick goalscoring records... Oh please. Messi is the best player of all time. There's a reason why all the commentators are worshiping him every time he touches the ball. They are watching history in the making. He's deserved all 4 Ballon d'Ors he got. No, Sneijder deserved the 2010 one.
no he did not.
also, mascherano best defensive tackler ever in the history of fouls.
SMASHerano. ;D
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On January 15 2013 03:51 funkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 03:35 sharkie wrote:On January 15 2013 01:48 TimENT wrote:On January 14 2013 20:35 popzags wrote:On January 14 2013 07:16 haitike wrote:
I have a big crush with Iniesta. He is pure magic. This game against Malaga, He has astonished me (again).
Barcelona this year is fucking insane. 55/57 points. The team hast lost 2 points in 19 matches of league. And his playstyle is a lot more fun to watch that last year.
Athletico Madrid with 44 points, any other season they would have been a title contender, and probably they would be in 1st position.
PD: Betis coach, Pepe Mel is a great coach. Iniesta is easily the best player on the planet right now and should've sealed at least 2 Golden Balls out of 4 Messi recieved, but of course he won't because he is bald, scores less goals and has much lesser marketing value among 12-year old football shirt purchasers. Every game Andres is on he makes like 5-8 beautiful, 40-meter passes I doubt Messi - who is, of course, gosu at his own account - will ever be capable to make with similar accuracy. Besides, Iniesta's ball control is at least comparable to Leo's and he contributes much more to defensive side of Barcelona, so in terms of 'bonjwaness' (ugly word, I know) he is on absolute top. If only more people appreciated more complex features of the game than just setting sick goalscoring records... Oh please. Messi is the best player of all time. There's a reason why all the commentators are worshiping him every time he touches the ball. They are watching history in the making. He's deserved all 4 Ballon d'Ors he got. No, Sneijder deserved the 2010 one. no he did not. also, mascherano best defensive tackler ever in the history of fouls. SMASHerano. ;D
Treble winner, World Cup runners up
vs
La Liga title
Are you serious? lol
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On January 15 2013 04:12 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 03:51 funkie wrote:On January 15 2013 03:35 sharkie wrote:On January 15 2013 01:48 TimENT wrote:On January 14 2013 20:35 popzags wrote:On January 14 2013 07:16 haitike wrote:
I have a big crush with Iniesta. He is pure magic. This game against Malaga, He has astonished me (again).
Barcelona this year is fucking insane. 55/57 points. The team hast lost 2 points in 19 matches of league. And his playstyle is a lot more fun to watch that last year.
Athletico Madrid with 44 points, any other season they would have been a title contender, and probably they would be in 1st position.
PD: Betis coach, Pepe Mel is a great coach. Iniesta is easily the best player on the planet right now and should've sealed at least 2 Golden Balls out of 4 Messi recieved, but of course he won't because he is bald, scores less goals and has much lesser marketing value among 12-year old football shirt purchasers. Every game Andres is on he makes like 5-8 beautiful, 40-meter passes I doubt Messi - who is, of course, gosu at his own account - will ever be capable to make with similar accuracy. Besides, Iniesta's ball control is at least comparable to Leo's and he contributes much more to defensive side of Barcelona, so in terms of 'bonjwaness' (ugly word, I know) he is on absolute top. If only more people appreciated more complex features of the game than just setting sick goalscoring records... Oh please. Messi is the best player of all time. There's a reason why all the commentators are worshiping him every time he touches the ball. They are watching history in the making. He's deserved all 4 Ballon d'Ors he got. No, Sneijder deserved the 2010 one. no he did not. also, mascherano best defensive tackler ever in the history of fouls. SMASHerano. ;D Treble winner, World Cup runners up vs La Liga title Are you serious? lol
This lol. Sneijder wasn't even nominated for the top 3 because he played in two very unpopular sides despite playing a big part in leading both sides to their success.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
News!
Germany are keen to face England in a friendly international as part of their 2014 World Cup preparations, according to general manager Oliver Bierhoff.
Both teams are on track to qualify for the finals in Brazil next summer, and Bierhoff is hoping to secure a date with Roy Hodgson's side in November.
Well at least that will be a nice fixture to look forward to in November. Never a dull game between England and Germany!
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On January 15 2013 04:18 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 04:12 sharkie wrote:On January 15 2013 03:51 funkie wrote:On January 15 2013 03:35 sharkie wrote:On January 15 2013 01:48 TimENT wrote:On January 14 2013 20:35 popzags wrote:On January 14 2013 07:16 haitike wrote:
I have a big crush with Iniesta. He is pure magic. This game against Malaga, He has astonished me (again).
Barcelona this year is fucking insane. 55/57 points. The team hast lost 2 points in 19 matches of league. And his playstyle is a lot more fun to watch that last year.
Athletico Madrid with 44 points, any other season they would have been a title contender, and probably they would be in 1st position.
PD: Betis coach, Pepe Mel is a great coach. Iniesta is easily the best player on the planet right now and should've sealed at least 2 Golden Balls out of 4 Messi recieved, but of course he won't because he is bald, scores less goals and has much lesser marketing value among 12-year old football shirt purchasers. Every game Andres is on he makes like 5-8 beautiful, 40-meter passes I doubt Messi - who is, of course, gosu at his own account - will ever be capable to make with similar accuracy. Besides, Iniesta's ball control is at least comparable to Leo's and he contributes much more to defensive side of Barcelona, so in terms of 'bonjwaness' (ugly word, I know) he is on absolute top. If only more people appreciated more complex features of the game than just setting sick goalscoring records... Oh please. Messi is the best player of all time. There's a reason why all the commentators are worshiping him every time he touches the ball. They are watching history in the making. He's deserved all 4 Ballon d'Ors he got. No, Sneijder deserved the 2010 one. no he did not. also, mascherano best defensive tackler ever in the history of fouls. SMASHerano. ;D Treble winner, World Cup runners up vs La Liga title Are you serious? lol This lol. Sneijder wasn't even nominated for the top 3 because he played in two very unpopular sides despite playing a big part in leading both sides to their success.
Well Fifa wanted to turn it into a popularity contest, they succeeded. Felt so bad for Sneijder, he was the best midfielder that year by miles, it was like he had eyes in the back of his freaking head.
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I think the ballon d'or is about the best player in the world, not about who wins more tittles that year. Messi has been the best player in the world this 4 years.
PD: And I would have voted Xavi in 2010 before Sneider. Spain won the WorldCup thanks to him. If Cannavaro won it in 2006 because Italia won the WorldCup, Xavi should have won it too.
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On January 15 2013 02:53 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 01:53 Rebs wrote:On January 15 2013 01:43 Pandemona wrote:On January 15 2013 01:15 Rebs wrote:On January 14 2013 23:29 Pandemona wrote:
No because that has nothing to do with "fanboyism". Maekele was better at Madrid, when haitike remembers him and agrees with him being the best player in that position.
A DEFENSIVE midfielder is not a player who can ping a 40yard pass to feet. It's a player who can TACKLE and breakdown play, and then restart it quickly for his team. Alonso did not do that much of the "defensive" aspect to his game at Liverpool, that was Mascherano. Masch would break down the play and then offload the ball to Alonso, then Alonso would do the rest, start the play or even go direct and ping a wonderful 40 yard pass.
Busquets does the one side of a defensive midfielder well, the keeping the move going, has good feet, and can spot a pass. What he has yet to prove if he has the physical strength of (we will use Viera as u rate him higher than Makelele) a Viera who could do his job in any league and any international game as he proved. Busquets can only prove this if he does what Makelele did and left to join another league and be as dominant in that team as he is in Barca's but saying that i stand by saying i don't see him dominant many midfields in the champions league, let alone for Spain. He is normally the first player to be subbed for Spain for a reason.....
Also your point about he doesn't have pace...nor did Makelele or Viera, they were world class due to positional sense, another quality a defensive midfielder MUST have, especially a "world class" one.
You didn't provide any point as to why you think Busquets is better apart from saying "he is a young Alonso without the 40yard pass to feet", thus that makes him shit.....as without a 40yard pass in his locker, Alonso is shit. Many Spanish people will also agree on that statement. I didnt provide any point as to why Busquets is better because I dont think hes better. Hes not even close, thats rubbish. I do believe however that you are severely under rating him. Hes got other terrible flaws we all know what they are and they are annoying and at times even sickening but for the most part I tend to ignore that if I see someone just playing well. Other people might not. Im not supposed to be his friend or like him to appreciate things he does well. I dont know what you mean by Xabi Alonso not being a defensive mid and Masch being one. So what if Xabi Alonso played with double pivots alot. Defensive midfielder doesnt mean your just supposed to chase the ball around and clock people. You value breaking up the play alot but I can tell you right now, that in the purest sense a defensive midfielder does not have to be a battler to be a good defensive mid. And its battlers that require "strength and ruggedness." that really depends on how your team plays. Not every team needs a Roy Keane, not even the current side at the club he used to play for. That should be evident enough. Busquets can tackle just aswell as anyone. Xabi Alonso also doesnt get any credit for how good he is because if you ever see him its because he made an aweful tackle that was absurdly late belying his age and lack of pace. I do not believe you need cavemen as defensive mids anymore. Break up play doesnt involve chasing down passes like an annoying runt which is the quality I'm seeing you value alot here. Just so its a bit clearer to me, when you say positioning what do you mean by it ? The reason Busquets lacking pace is a problem is because unlike Vieira or Makelele his team bombs forward often leaving him to plug half the field by himself. You can be the best in the world positioning wise but if an attacker has half the pitch and a yard of pace on you hes just going to kick it by you and run you out of the game. So that considered he does a decentish job. As for him being the first player subbed. I dont even know where you got that or what thats supposed to mean. I always support your points of view Rebs, so please never take any of my posts as attacks or ludacrist fanboy stuff! (Don't know if you were, just saying this out of respect!) I guess the main difference we have is that we value the word defensive midfielder different. I see David Luiz type of midfielder, the Defensive midfield type. Viera like you mentioned as well, an excellent example of a strong, good passing, organizing midfielder. But you only know Barcelona for having Busquets in the side in that position, imagine if they had a young Makelele in that position or even a Viera in that position, would Barca still be as vulnerable to counter attacks as they were then? Watching Chelsea and Real when Makelele was their i know for sure Maka always used to break down counter attacks before they started with well timed tackles or even (many occasions) deliberate fouls and took a yellow card for it. Guess on that point we will never know. The box to box aspect or "chasing" down players as you call it, is a value of a centre midfielder, maybe that is just me and my English mentallity of what i have been bought up watching, but if your not closing down a player, they are going to hurt you. Not matter if your Barcelona,Bayern or Madrid, if you let people at the highest level have time and space they will punish you. I know Barca like to close down together in units, but when you lose the ball you can't do that "straight" away, you need a defensive mid to either A organize, like Viera would or B a Makelele to take a foul and stop the attack dead, i have never seen Busquets do that sort of thing. Busquets for his postion seems way out of place on every counter attack against Barca. He is always way to far up the pitch for me, being more of the Quarterback, to close to the opponents, helping spray the ball from side to side. Instead he should be alot deeper, not 20 yards away from the Striker. When teams counter Barca, Busquets is not in the right position. Lets take this "one" video of the Chelsea goal, i know it is not clear, but Busquets is the first one to close down Lampard after he tackles Messi...Look how he "defends" SourceOther than that, i am not saying he is a bad player, i agree that he has two great feet for passing, and he links up the play well for Barca, giving the ball to either Xavi/Iniesta or even straight to messi. But what i think he lacks is strength/defensive play and a tackle. For me he is a just a less visionary Pirlo, but still good. Yeah I suppose its what you value more. Honestly even a Makelele would struggle when you have half a pitch to cover and say for example a Falcao bombing past you. (Makelele would probably get close enough to foul him. Busquets would be lying in the dirt) still. BAs for teams countering Barca. Thats just how they play. No player on the planet or in history can account for some of the ways they just decided to forget they need to defend. I think hes got a really hard job and he does it well enough. Indeed i guess we will never know clearly until someone else takes the role up. But i agree he probably has the hardest job of any DM in the world due to Barca back 4 being lackluster and their attacking options not really busting a gut to come back and help in the defensive side. Plus pace is the key i guess.
really should watch some games before you say stuff like that tbh..
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Netherlands13554 Posts
Barca's defenders are not bad at all. It's just the risky playstyle they employ. If they constantly play with almost the entire team on the half of the opposing side, then it leaves a shitload of space for counter-attacks. Barca also almost only gets goals against from counter-attacks. Then again, they don't get a lot of goals against anyway.
They keep tremendous pressure on the ball at all times with their entire team but if the opponent can string some passes together and find a runner then there's lots of room for counterattacking. It's 10x harder to defend when you play Barca's playstyle when comparing to a more defensive (or traditional) playstyle, like for example Chelsea.
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On January 15 2013 08:41 haitike wrote:
I think the ballon d'or is about the best player in the world, not about who wins more tittles that year. Messi has been the best player in the world this 4 years.
PD: And I would have voted Xavi in 2010 before Sneider. Spain won the WorldCup thanks to him. If Cannavaro won it in 2006 because Italia won the WorldCup, Xavi should have won it too.
Spain won the world cup cause Casillas let nothing in and Villa scored the winning goals.
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On January 14 2013 23:29 Pandemona wrote: He is normally the first player to be subbed for Spain for a reason.....
Busquets is never subbed in the Spain team. Actually, most people are arguing on whether or not X. Alonso is necessary in the midfield, so Spain could play with 3 midfielders + 3 attacking players (most likely Fabregas, Silva and Pedro/Navas/Villa).
I don't like the idea that to be the best you have to try different leagues... Barcelona is the best club in the world right now, and Busquets just took the place of Touré, at the age of 21, how is that not a proof that he is among the best? After that, it's just a matter of opinion to decide who is the best, but I would say, for the playstyle of Barcelona and Spain, the best is Busquets. Same goes for Valdes btw
On January 15 2013 09:38 Twisted wrote:
Barca's defenders are not bad at all. It's just the risky playstyle they employ. If they constantly play with almost the entire team on the half of the opposing side, then it leaves a shitload of space for counter-attacks. Barca also almost only gets goals against from counter-attacks. Then again, they don't get a lot of goals against anyway.
They keep tremendous pressure on the ball at all times with their entire team but if the opponent can string some passes together and find a runner then there's lots of room for counterattacking. It's 10x harder to defend when you play Barca's playstyle when comparing to a more defensive (or traditional) playstyle, like for example Chelsea.
I have to agree with that entirely Too easy to bash on the defenders when they always have to defend outnumbered because of risky plays by Messi/Xavi/Iniesta (just look at Chelsea goals last year).
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 15 2013 09:11 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 02:53 Pandemona wrote:On January 15 2013 01:53 Rebs wrote:On January 15 2013 01:43 Pandemona wrote:On January 15 2013 01:15 Rebs wrote:On January 14 2013 23:29 Pandemona wrote:
No because that has nothing to do with "fanboyism". Maekele was better at Madrid, when haitike remembers him and agrees with him being the best player in that position.
A DEFENSIVE midfielder is not a player who can ping a 40yard pass to feet. It's a player who can TACKLE and breakdown play, and then restart it quickly for his team. Alonso did not do that much of the "defensive" aspect to his game at Liverpool, that was Mascherano. Masch would break down the play and then offload the ball to Alonso, then Alonso would do the rest, start the play or even go direct and ping a wonderful 40 yard pass.
Busquets does the one side of a defensive midfielder well, the keeping the move going, has good feet, and can spot a pass. What he has yet to prove if he has the physical strength of (we will use Viera as u rate him higher than Makelele) a Viera who could do his job in any league and any international game as he proved. Busquets can only prove this if he does what Makelele did and left to join another league and be as dominant in that team as he is in Barca's but saying that i stand by saying i don't see him dominant many midfields in the champions league, let alone for Spain. He is normally the first player to be subbed for Spain for a reason.....
Also your point about he doesn't have pace...nor did Makelele or Viera, they were world class due to positional sense, another quality a defensive midfielder MUST have, especially a "world class" one.
You didn't provide any point as to why you think Busquets is better apart from saying "he is a young Alonso without the 40yard pass to feet", thus that makes him shit.....as without a 40yard pass in his locker, Alonso is shit. Many Spanish people will also agree on that statement. I didnt provide any point as to why Busquets is better because I dont think hes better. Hes not even close, thats rubbish. I do believe however that you are severely under rating him. Hes got other terrible flaws we all know what they are and they are annoying and at times even sickening but for the most part I tend to ignore that if I see someone just playing well. Other people might not. Im not supposed to be his friend or like him to appreciate things he does well. I dont know what you mean by Xabi Alonso not being a defensive mid and Masch being one. So what if Xabi Alonso played with double pivots alot. Defensive midfielder doesnt mean your just supposed to chase the ball around and clock people. You value breaking up the play alot but I can tell you right now, that in the purest sense a defensive midfielder does not have to be a battler to be a good defensive mid. And its battlers that require "strength and ruggedness." that really depends on how your team plays. Not every team needs a Roy Keane, not even the current side at the club he used to play for. That should be evident enough. Busquets can tackle just aswell as anyone. Xabi Alonso also doesnt get any credit for how good he is because if you ever see him its because he made an aweful tackle that was absurdly late belying his age and lack of pace. I do not believe you need cavemen as defensive mids anymore. Break up play doesnt involve chasing down passes like an annoying runt which is the quality I'm seeing you value alot here. Just so its a bit clearer to me, when you say positioning what do you mean by it ? The reason Busquets lacking pace is a problem is because unlike Vieira or Makelele his team bombs forward often leaving him to plug half the field by himself. You can be the best in the world positioning wise but if an attacker has half the pitch and a yard of pace on you hes just going to kick it by you and run you out of the game. So that considered he does a decentish job. As for him being the first player subbed. I dont even know where you got that or what thats supposed to mean. I always support your points of view Rebs, so please never take any of my posts as attacks or ludacrist fanboy stuff! (Don't know if you were, just saying this out of respect!) I guess the main difference we have is that we value the word defensive midfielder different. I see David Luiz type of midfielder, the Defensive midfield type. Viera like you mentioned as well, an excellent example of a strong, good passing, organizing midfielder. But you only know Barcelona for having Busquets in the side in that position, imagine if they had a young Makelele in that position or even a Viera in that position, would Barca still be as vulnerable to counter attacks as they were then? Watching Chelsea and Real when Makelele was their i know for sure Maka always used to break down counter attacks before they started with well timed tackles or even (many occasions) deliberate fouls and took a yellow card for it. Guess on that point we will never know. The box to box aspect or "chasing" down players as you call it, is a value of a centre midfielder, maybe that is just me and my English mentallity of what i have been bought up watching, but if your not closing down a player, they are going to hurt you. Not matter if your Barcelona,Bayern or Madrid, if you let people at the highest level have time and space they will punish you. I know Barca like to close down together in units, but when you lose the ball you can't do that "straight" away, you need a defensive mid to either A organize, like Viera would or B a Makelele to take a foul and stop the attack dead, i have never seen Busquets do that sort of thing. Busquets for his postion seems way out of place on every counter attack against Barca. He is always way to far up the pitch for me, being more of the Quarterback, to close to the opponents, helping spray the ball from side to side. Instead he should be alot deeper, not 20 yards away from the Striker. When teams counter Barca, Busquets is not in the right position. Lets take this "one" video of the Chelsea goal, i know it is not clear, but Busquets is the first one to close down Lampard after he tackles Messi...Look how he "defends" SourceOther than that, i am not saying he is a bad player, i agree that he has two great feet for passing, and he links up the play well for Barca, giving the ball to either Xavi/Iniesta or even straight to messi. But what i think he lacks is strength/defensive play and a tackle. For me he is a just a less visionary Pirlo, but still good. Yeah I suppose its what you value more. Honestly even a Makelele would struggle when you have half a pitch to cover and say for example a Falcao bombing past you. (Makelele would probably get close enough to foul him. Busquets would be lying in the dirt) still. BAs for teams countering Barca. Thats just how they play. No player on the planet or in history can account for some of the ways they just decided to forget they need to defend. I think hes got a really hard job and he does it well enough. Indeed i guess we will never know clearly until someone else takes the role up. But i agree he probably has the hardest job of any DM in the world due to Barca back 4 being lackluster and their attacking options not really busting a gut to come back and help in the defensive side. Plus pace is the key i guess. really should watch some games before you say stuff like that tbh..
How can you even say that? what the actual fuck....
Next you will be saying Man Utd can defend.....Or even predict Man Utd vs Real Madrid to be a goalless draw..
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Most of the goals against Barcelona are the fruit of the loss of the ball by some people in the midfield trying to make a risky move or simply failing a pass. And still Barcelona has been the best defense of La Liga for 4 yeears now.
You will answer that they don't receive goals because of their strong possession, but this is really working against your point: when the team is meant to attack for 100% of the game, they will suffer when they get counter attacked. I would love to see 'strong' defenses like Real Madrid of last year or MU some years ago, playing Barca style with numerous situation where you're outnumbered... To defend with this style you need smart players, not typical defenders, that's why Piqué, Alves are great even if you don't consider them as strong as Vidic or Pepe. They are just not the same style. On top of that, recently Barça has never had his full back 4 because of injuries. The 2010-2011 starting 11 with Abidal Puyol Piqué Alves was one of the best back 4 possible and still brought so much for the attacking sequences...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On January 15 2013 17:36 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 09:11 Rebs wrote:On January 15 2013 02:53 Pandemona wrote:On January 15 2013 01:53 Rebs wrote:On January 15 2013 01:43 Pandemona wrote:On January 15 2013 01:15 Rebs wrote:On January 14 2013 23:29 Pandemona wrote:
No because that has nothing to do with "fanboyism". Maekele was better at Madrid, when haitike remembers him and agrees with him being the best player in that position.
A DEFENSIVE midfielder is not a player who can ping a 40yard pass to feet. It's a player who can TACKLE and breakdown play, and then restart it quickly for his team. Alonso did not do that much of the "defensive" aspect to his game at Liverpool, that was Mascherano. Masch would break down the play and then offload the ball to Alonso, then Alonso would do the rest, start the play or even go direct and ping a wonderful 40 yard pass.
Busquets does the one side of a defensive midfielder well, the keeping the move going, has good feet, and can spot a pass. What he has yet to prove if he has the physical strength of (we will use Viera as u rate him higher than Makelele) a Viera who could do his job in any league and any international game as he proved. Busquets can only prove this if he does what Makelele did and left to join another league and be as dominant in that team as he is in Barca's but saying that i stand by saying i don't see him dominant many midfields in the champions league, let alone for Spain. He is normally the first player to be subbed for Spain for a reason.....
Also your point about he doesn't have pace...nor did Makelele or Viera, they were world class due to positional sense, another quality a defensive midfielder MUST have, especially a "world class" one.
You didn't provide any point as to why you think Busquets is better apart from saying "he is a young Alonso without the 40yard pass to feet", thus that makes him shit.....as without a 40yard pass in his locker, Alonso is shit. Many Spanish people will also agree on that statement. I didnt provide any point as to why Busquets is better because I dont think hes better. Hes not even close, thats rubbish. I do believe however that you are severely under rating him. Hes got other terrible flaws we all know what they are and they are annoying and at times even sickening but for the most part I tend to ignore that if I see someone just playing well. Other people might not. Im not supposed to be his friend or like him to appreciate things he does well. I dont know what you mean by Xabi Alonso not being a defensive mid and Masch being one. So what if Xabi Alonso played with double pivots alot. Defensive midfielder doesnt mean your just supposed to chase the ball around and clock people. You value breaking up the play alot but I can tell you right now, that in the purest sense a defensive midfielder does not have to be a battler to be a good defensive mid. And its battlers that require "strength and ruggedness." that really depends on how your team plays. Not every team needs a Roy Keane, not even the current side at the club he used to play for. That should be evident enough. Busquets can tackle just aswell as anyone. Xabi Alonso also doesnt get any credit for how good he is because if you ever see him its because he made an aweful tackle that was absurdly late belying his age and lack of pace. I do not believe you need cavemen as defensive mids anymore. Break up play doesnt involve chasing down passes like an annoying runt which is the quality I'm seeing you value alot here. Just so its a bit clearer to me, when you say positioning what do you mean by it ? The reason Busquets lacking pace is a problem is because unlike Vieira or Makelele his team bombs forward often leaving him to plug half the field by himself. You can be the best in the world positioning wise but if an attacker has half the pitch and a yard of pace on you hes just going to kick it by you and run you out of the game. So that considered he does a decentish job. As for him being the first player subbed. I dont even know where you got that or what thats supposed to mean. I always support your points of view Rebs, so please never take any of my posts as attacks or ludacrist fanboy stuff! (Don't know if you were, just saying this out of respect!) I guess the main difference we have is that we value the word defensive midfielder different. I see David Luiz type of midfielder, the Defensive midfield type. Viera like you mentioned as well, an excellent example of a strong, good passing, organizing midfielder. But you only know Barcelona for having Busquets in the side in that position, imagine if they had a young Makelele in that position or even a Viera in that position, would Barca still be as vulnerable to counter attacks as they were then? Watching Chelsea and Real when Makelele was their i know for sure Maka always used to break down counter attacks before they started with well timed tackles or even (many occasions) deliberate fouls and took a yellow card for it. Guess on that point we will never know. The box to box aspect or "chasing" down players as you call it, is a value of a centre midfielder, maybe that is just me and my English mentallity of what i have been bought up watching, but if your not closing down a player, they are going to hurt you. Not matter if your Barcelona,Bayern or Madrid, if you let people at the highest level have time and space they will punish you. I know Barca like to close down together in units, but when you lose the ball you can't do that "straight" away, you need a defensive mid to either A organize, like Viera would or B a Makelele to take a foul and stop the attack dead, i have never seen Busquets do that sort of thing. Busquets for his postion seems way out of place on every counter attack against Barca. He is always way to far up the pitch for me, being more of the Quarterback, to close to the opponents, helping spray the ball from side to side. Instead he should be alot deeper, not 20 yards away from the Striker. When teams counter Barca, Busquets is not in the right position. Lets take this "one" video of the Chelsea goal, i know it is not clear, but Busquets is the first one to close down Lampard after he tackles Messi...Look how he "defends" SourceOther than that, i am not saying he is a bad player, i agree that he has two great feet for passing, and he links up the play well for Barca, giving the ball to either Xavi/Iniesta or even straight to messi. But what i think he lacks is strength/defensive play and a tackle. For me he is a just a less visionary Pirlo, but still good. Yeah I suppose its what you value more. Honestly even a Makelele would struggle when you have half a pitch to cover and say for example a Falcao bombing past you. (Makelele would probably get close enough to foul him. Busquets would be lying in the dirt) still. BAs for teams countering Barca. Thats just how they play. No player on the planet or in history can account for some of the ways they just decided to forget they need to defend. I think hes got a really hard job and he does it well enough. Indeed i guess we will never know clearly until someone else takes the role up. But i agree he probably has the hardest job of any DM in the world due to Barca back 4 being lackluster and their attacking options not really busting a gut to come back and help in the defensive side. Plus pace is the key i guess. really should watch some games before you say stuff like that tbh.. How can you even say that? what the actual fuck.... Next you will be saying Man Utd can defend.....Or even predict Man Utd vs Real Madrid to be a goalless draw..
He's right. You need to watch more games if you think their back 4 is lackluster and attacking players don't track back. Xavi, Pedro, Iniesta, and Alexis all do their defensive duties, though that's mostly in the form of pressing. And the reason Barcelona look so exposed at times isn't because the back 4 are poor, it's the system Barcelona use. High line and high pressure means if they, the opposition that is, bypass the initial round of pressing, the back 4 are inherently exposed to counters with pace and numbers. If any other back 4 in the world played in that system, they would do a lot worse.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
No they are not defenders, they just keep the ball ffs. Or like you said "press high" which is good, the only good defensive thing about Barcelona.
When they continuously lose to sides they should not due to their lackluster defense and midfielders who get caught out to easily then they will always get this sort of comment being thrown at them. There only decent defender, who loves and strives for a tackle is Puyol, he is class. Born and raised there, and is such a great leader for them. Without him they are shocking at the back, worst than Chelsea are without JT. It's just unreal how much they are vulnerable when he doesn't play.
But as the likes of JT and Ferdinand, Puyol is to getting old and the pace side of his game is going astray meaning more counters are ending up in being more goals. The speedy strikers can breeze past him, and barca can concede.
25goals conceded in 30 games this season for Barcelona. And thats taking into account all the teams they have played vs. 4 matches against teams in division 2/3 of Spain. 6 Champions league ties, and 19league games. 0.83 goals per game, coming from a team who plays vs A.Madrid/R.Madrid twice a season?
But anyway, my point stands that Barca defenders aren't world class. Maybe i can be given facts and stats about Barca midfielders actually "tracking back" which personally i don't think they do. They do however close down/press, but it is way to high up the pitch for me, leaving them open for the counter attacks to much. Busquets should be way deeper than he is, to lessen the strain on Puyol and Pique when they have/are being countered.
Other than that, ask yourselves would any CB of Barca get into another other team outside of La Liga, mainly looking at Serie A/Premiership/Bundesliga?
The RBs and LBs probably would due to being excellent in the pace department, and easily being told to have to get back more than they might at Barcelona!
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And 65 goals just counting la Liga. Yeah they take risks and they concede goals. That doesn't prove that they are bad defenders sorry bro.
1 year ago when they had Abidal with Puyol and Pique, they never conceded goals, they went something like 50-0 in term of goals in the New Camp before a team managed to put a goal there. This year they've even tried Song and Adriano as CB, you can't judge the numbers, AND STILL they are the 2nd defense of la Liga behind Malaga. Btw, the best defense Malaga just took 3 goals by Barcelona and could have taken more, does that make them bad at defending?
You don't seem to understand that they play so risky that any counter offensive can be a goal for the other side because everyone is involved to score a goal... As I said, I would have loved to see the 'mighty' Vidic-Ferdinand or Ramos-Pepe playing in Barcelona with this style, they would 'fail' as much as our actual defenders if not more.
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