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2012 - 2013 Football Thread! - Page 221

Forum Index > Sports
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ZapRoffo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5544 Posts
January 15 2013 20:40 GMT
#4401
I'm just thinking how much crazy it showed in Mourinho to bench Casillas. This season their team is basically Ronaldo, Casillas and Ramos Pepe (and maybe Khedira) . They look like nothing, no inspiration any time too much of that group is missing.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion man
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
January 15 2013 20:43 GMT
#4402
On January 16 2013 05:35 Twisted wrote:
Btw, on another topic, what do you guys think of the whole soap opera going on over at Internazionale with Sneijder? He's been offered to Galatasaray for €10m and they're willing to shell out around the same salary, but I'd hate it if he would go to the Turkish competition. Such a great player, one of Europe's best imo, should be granted another chance in one of the top competitions. He's only 28 years old. I'd love to see him perform in the premier league. I think he'd be a revelation there (I think the level of impact would be comparable as the impact RvP has right now). Wouldn't want to see him at Chelsea or Man City for obvious reasons but I think a team like Liverpool, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal could be great for him and I think he could bring any of those teams to new heights.

For those not in the know; he didn't wish to downgrade his running contract (until 2015) for a new contract so he doesn't get any playtime. Now his salary is just too big for Inter to pay so they want to get rid of him.

Anyway, only 2 years ago he was one of the absolute best midfielders and I think he could still reach that level given his age. Just needs a team that gives him what he needs.


Tweet that to Harry Redknapp, QPR will pay 20.
I'm really liking Valencia right now, hope they can overcome the hair models.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
January 15 2013 20:54 GMT
#4403
On January 16 2013 05:35 Twisted wrote:
Btw, on another topic, what do you guys think of the whole soap opera going on over at Internazionale with Sneijder? He's been offered to Galatasaray for €10m and they're willing to shell out around the same salary, but I'd hate it if he would go to the Turkish competition. Such a great player, one of Europe's best imo, should be granted another chance in one of the top competitions. He's only 28 years old. I'd love to see him perform in the premier league. I think he'd be a revelation there (I think the level of impact would be comparable as the impact RvP has right now). Wouldn't want to see him at Chelsea or Man City for obvious reasons but I think a team like Liverpool, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal could be great for him and I think he could bring any of those teams to new heights.

For those not in the know; he didn't wish to downgrade his running contract (until 2015) for a new contract so he doesn't get any playtime. Now his salary is just too big for Inter to pay so they want to get rid of him.

Anyway, only 2 years ago he was one of the absolute best midfielders and I think he could still reach that level given his age. Just needs a team that gives him what he needs.


I think Inter is just being terrible to Sneijder for not knowing how to play him after Et'o and Mourihno left. Seems like Inter played a lot of money for its one Championships League and treble win and now all the pieces have drifted apart.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
January 15 2013 21:00 GMT
#4404
On January 16 2013 05:54 TanGeng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 05:35 Twisted wrote:
Btw, on another topic, what do you guys think of the whole soap opera going on over at Internazionale with Sneijder? He's been offered to Galatasaray for €10m and they're willing to shell out around the same salary, but I'd hate it if he would go to the Turkish competition. Such a great player, one of Europe's best imo, should be granted another chance in one of the top competitions. He's only 28 years old. I'd love to see him perform in the premier league. I think he'd be a revelation there (I think the level of impact would be comparable as the impact RvP has right now). Wouldn't want to see him at Chelsea or Man City for obvious reasons but I think a team like Liverpool, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal could be great for him and I think he could bring any of those teams to new heights.

For those not in the know; he didn't wish to downgrade his running contract (until 2015) for a new contract so he doesn't get any playtime. Now his salary is just too big for Inter to pay so they want to get rid of him.

Anyway, only 2 years ago he was one of the absolute best midfielders and I think he could still reach that level given his age. Just needs a team that gives him what he needs.


I think Inter is just being terrible to Sneijder for not knowing how to play him after Et'o and Mourihno left. Seems like Inter played a lot of money for its one Championships League and treble win and now all the pieces have drifted apart.


They had been paying alot of money for a decade before that. It was Mou magic that finally did the trick for them.

Morattis personal investments since shortly before the decade goes upto a billion although Id hestitate to say the exact figure.

Its really poor management and one of the many reasons Italy's bigger clubs are suffering.
city42
Profile Joined October 2007
1656 Posts
January 15 2013 21:08 GMT
#4405
On January 16 2013 05:35 Twisted wrote:
Btw, on another topic, what do you guys think of the whole soap opera going on over at Internazionale with Sneijder? He's been offered to Galatasaray for €10m and they're willing to shell out around the same salary, but I'd hate it if he would go to the Turkish competition. Such a great player, one of Europe's best imo, should be granted another chance in one of the top competitions. He's only 28 years old. I'd love to see him perform in the premier league. I think he'd be a revelation there (I think the level of impact would be comparable as the impact RvP has right now). Wouldn't want to see him at Chelsea or Man City for obvious reasons but I think a team like Liverpool, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal could be great for him and I think he could bring any of those teams to new heights.

For those not in the know; he didn't wish to downgrade his running contract (until 2015) for a new contract so he doesn't get any playtime. Now his salary is just too big for Inter to pay so they want to get rid of him.

Anyway, only 2 years ago he was one of the absolute best midfielders and I think he could still reach that level given his age. Just needs a team that gives him what he needs.

I've been following the situation pretty closely as a Tottenham fan...here's the situation as far as I know:

-Sneijder's salary has been thrown around as the reason no bids have come for him from England, but that's not really the case. He currently makes 6m euros per year with a 1m bonus, and any of the top 5 premier league clubs can afford that. The real issue is that a team would be committed to that salary for multiple years along with the transfer fee, and no one really knows how good Sneijder currently is after the injuries. It is a big investment and a gamble.

-Some time around Christmas, representatives of Sneijder and Tottenham met and agreed personal terms, but Tottenham wanted him on a loan deal with an option to buy at the end, and Inter refused.

-The agreement between Inter and Galatasaray had a crazy clause in it which prevented Inter from selling Sneijder to any other club before January 15th. If Inter were to violate that clause, they would have to pay Galatasaray 5m euros. With that deadline gone, interest in Sneijder might pick up.

-It's fairly obvious at this point that Sneijder does not want to go to Turkey. He may end up going just to escape Inter, but he is holding out for a premier league club to come get him. The patience of Galatasaray is running thin so I'm not sure how much longer he can wait.

I completely agree with everything you said about him. Sneijder is worth the financial risk and would hugely improve any premier league team if he has recovered from the injuries. I know for certain he would fit in well at Tottenham. After selling Modric and Van der Vaart we have a huge lack of creativity in midfield, and Sneijder is one of the best passers of the ball in the world.

Also, Inter's behavior is disgusting...they simply told Sneijder to take a 33% salary reduction or he would never get to play. They pulled the same stunt with Maicon and Julio Cesar. Don't offer the contract if you don't want to honor it!
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
January 15 2013 21:14 GMT
#4406
Yeah I don't know where this argument started about Pique and Puyol but I think they are fine. Puyol is a really great defender who has excellent timing. I think they also have just about enough physicality to deal with corners, they seem to be well defensively drilled at them.

And Sated...man, I was with you up until you called Rebs a fing moron, just gota stay away from swears, everyone likes keeping the football thread mannered. Even if we have disagreements.
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
January 15 2013 21:21 GMT
#4407
Didn't know about the January 15th deadline. That's interesting. I like Tottenham as well, especially since van der Vaart joined them. Sad that he left but another great Ajax player just joined them in Vertonghen so I'm glad about that.

In Dutch newssites and programs they're constantly talking about Sneijder's situation as well. He's our national squad captain so it's important he starts playing again for the upcoming qualification and world cup.

I think it's always a gamble when you give players multiple-year contracts though so that shouldn't be an argument for clubs that are willing and able to pay up should it?

You do need to build the entire team around a player like Sneijder though and that might be hard, dunno.
Moderator
ZapRoffo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5544 Posts
January 15 2013 21:23 GMT
#4408
This is painful watching Jonas can't buy a goal.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion man
Djagulingu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany3605 Posts
January 15 2013 21:30 GMT
#4409
On January 16 2013 05:35 Twisted wrote:
Btw, on another topic, what do you guys think of the whole soap opera going on over at Internazionale with Sneijder? He's been offered to Galatasaray for €10m and they're willing to shell out around the same salary, but I'd hate it if he would go to the Turkish competition. Such a great player, one of Europe's best imo, should be granted another chance in one of the top competitions. He's only 28 years old. I'd love to see him perform in the premier league. I think he'd be a revelation there (I think the level of impact would be comparable as the impact RvP has right now). Wouldn't want to see him at Chelsea or Man City for obvious reasons but I think a team like Liverpool, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal could be great for him and I think he could bring any of those teams to new heights.

For those not in the know; he didn't wish to downgrade his running contract (until 2015) for a new contract so he doesn't get any playtime. Now his salary is just too big for Inter to pay so they want to get rid of him.

Anyway, only 2 years ago he was one of the absolute best midfielders and I think he could still reach that level given his age. Just needs a team that gives him what he needs.

As a Galatasaray fan, I'd like him to be in any other team (including Fenerbahçe) and not in Galatasaray for the following reasons:

- What he's doing right now to Galatasaray is disgusting
- He will fuck up the team chemistry
- We don't have a system that can include our good midfielders and Sneijder at the same time
- We actually need a left back but all the focus is on Sneijder
- A centre defender wouldn't be bad because we only have 2 central defenders that are not injured and also dependable but again all the focus is on Sneijder
- A right winger is optional, but still a better addition to the team than Sneijder but again, all the focus is on Sneijder

Fuck this shit. I don't know what Galatasaray is doing. If one of Semih Kaya or Dany Nounkeu gets injured before the Schalke game (which the club has put an exclamation mark on), I don't know who we will play as a central defender. But I know one thing: I will do the same amount of mistakes as the guy who will play.

I doubt Emmanuel Eboue and Nordin Amrabat will be back from African Nations Cup before the Champions League starts. If not, the board of directors better stop messing around for useless additions like Sneijder and get decent subs for Eboue and Amrabat (I bet the sub will be a better player than Amrabat).
"windows bash is a steaming heap of shit" tofucake
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
January 15 2013 21:33 GMT
#4410
Well he's being forced by Inter to choose Galatasaray and he basically says no so I don't know if that's disgusting?

On all of the other points I agree with you. It's terrible policy; spending that much money for a player in these times when they can hardly afford it (I think?) proves that point.
Moderator
DaMuffinman
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1705 Posts
January 15 2013 21:33 GMT
#4411
Lol Ronaldo he had to make that one
But does it djent?
city42
Profile Joined October 2007
1656 Posts
January 15 2013 21:34 GMT
#4412
On January 16 2013 06:21 Twisted wrote:
Didn't know about the January 15th deadline. That's interesting. I like Tottenham as well, especially since van der Vaart joined them. Sad that he left but another great Ajax player just joined them in Vertonghen so I'm glad about that.

In Dutch newssites and programs they're constantly talking about Sneijder's situation as well. He's our national squad captain so it's important he starts playing again for the upcoming qualification and world cup.

I think it's always a gamble when you give players multiple-year contracts though so that shouldn't be an argument for clubs that are willing and able to pay up should it?

You do need to build the entire team around a player like Sneijder though and that might be hard, dunno.

I forgot to give the source for the January 15th thing:






series of tweets from an Italian journalist who has been very reliable reporting transfer news/updates involving Italian teams.

And Vertonghen is an amazing player, really glad to have him. At the same time, it's too bad that Ajax had to sell him. A great and historic club like Ajax deserves to keep its talent. I hope they are able to keep Eriksen for at least another year.
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
January 15 2013 21:44 GMT
#4413
On January 16 2013 06:23 ZapRoffo wrote:
This is painful watching Jonas can't buy a goal.


And all the calls by refs and linesmen have gone in Reals favor
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
January 15 2013 22:04 GMT
#4414
On January 16 2013 06:34 city42 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 06:21 Twisted wrote:
Didn't know about the January 15th deadline. That's interesting. I like Tottenham as well, especially since van der Vaart joined them. Sad that he left but another great Ajax player just joined them in Vertonghen so I'm glad about that.

In Dutch newssites and programs they're constantly talking about Sneijder's situation as well. He's our national squad captain so it's important he starts playing again for the upcoming qualification and world cup.

I think it's always a gamble when you give players multiple-year contracts though so that shouldn't be an argument for clubs that are willing and able to pay up should it?

You do need to build the entire team around a player like Sneijder though and that might be hard, dunno.

I forgot to give the source for the January 15th thing:

https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290091139216838656
https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290091496575754240
https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290091773882150912
https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290092081899253760

series of tweets from an Italian journalist who has been very reliable reporting transfer news/updates involving Italian teams.

And Vertonghen is an amazing player, really glad to have him. At the same time, it's too bad that Ajax had to sell him. A great and historic club like Ajax deserves to keep its talent. I hope they are able to keep Eriksen for at least another year.


Hehe thanks for the tweets!

And yeah it's a shame but that's what's football is about these years. Players go where the money is. Whenever a player in Ajax gets to be the best player (or one of the best) he transfers to a bigger club for a decent sum of money. Good thing is though that after they do leave, they usually become great players and in some cases absolute monsters at their new club. Last decade for example Ibrahimovitz, vd Vaart, Sneijder, Vermaelen and in more recent history Suarez, Vertonghen. So it's fun to follow them around and cheer for their new clubs and feel a bit of proudness that they do so well.
Also, the players that are now pulling the cart (so to speak) are de Jong (scored like 3 goals against ManC in CL this year), Eriksen and Alderweireld and it's highly likely that they'll transfer out next year.

There's an interesting time coming up though. They recently had big chances done to the management. The entire management and club culture has changed for the better after the Cruijff revolution as media call it here. Basically Cruijff said that the club should be led by people who know their football and were in contact with professional football in the past accompanied by people who know the business side of it. The last decade though, the club was in major decline with only people from the business world at the steering wheel. Huge investments were made into players that didn't bring anything to the table. It took 7 years before they finally won the league in 2011 again.

The idea behind the club being led by football players is most prominently visible in the youth academy. There's a golden amount of retired top players training these kids now right up to the first team. Frank de Boer and Dennis Bergkamp as the ones to manage the first team and then you have old players like Michel Kreek, Jaap Stam, Wim Jonk, Ronald de Boer, Bryan Roy, John Bosman and more players from the golden 1995 Ajax era training in all levels of the club. Marc Overmars and Edwin van der Sar are in the directing seats as well. This way the youth academy should shine once more and that way they want to reach the European top again in like.. 5 years. As long as they can keep the players until they're like 24ish they should be able to reach some of their goals even though the budget is sometimes 6-8 times smaller than that of the big European clubs.

Anyway, that's enough insight for my own lil' club for now . It's a good development and other clubs are also following the same philosophy here in Holland, like Feyenoord. They've been struggling a lot as well most of the past decade but I'm glad to see that they're doing better now and they're going to be serious title contenders again very soon. Yay go Holland! Should be good for the national squad as well.
Moderator
haitike
Profile Joined June 2009
Spain2727 Posts
January 15 2013 22:07 GMT
#4415
I still dont understand how Mourinho (and some players like Di Maria) blame referees all the weeks and say that Referees are against Madrid (Mou said some days ago that Barcelona is winning the league because referees, lol, with 18 points less).

The referee stole today two goals to Soldado that were not offside, and the second Madrid goal was illegal (Higuain hand).

PD: Jonas is so bad scoring and Guaita is a great goalkeeper.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18636 Posts
January 15 2013 22:11 GMT
#4416
On January 16 2013 07:07 haitike wrote:
I still dont understand how Mourinho (and some players like Di Maria) blame referees all the weeks and say that Referees are against Madrid (Mou said some days ago that Barcelona is winning the league because referees, lol, with 18 points less).

The referee stole today two goals to Soldado that were not offside, and the second Madrid goal was illegal (Higuain hand).

PD: Jonas is so bad scoring and Guaita is a great goalkeeper.


Bayern do it when it happens one out of ten times, ManUtd do it, Chelsea do it, hell even Barcelona do it when the referee doesn't whistle for them.

Everyone does it. They are all hypocrites.
haitike
Profile Joined June 2009
Spain2727 Posts
January 15 2013 22:14 GMT
#4417
On January 16 2013 07:11 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 07:07 haitike wrote:
I still dont understand how Mourinho (and some players like Di Maria) blame referees all the weeks and say that Referees are against Madrid (Mou said some days ago that Barcelona is winning the league because referees, lol, with 18 points less).

The referee stole today two goals to Soldado that were not offside, and the second Madrid goal was illegal (Higuain hand).

PD: Jonas is so bad scoring and Guaita is a great goalkeeper.


Bayern do it when it happens one out of ten times, ManUtd do it, Chelsea do it, hell even Barcelona do it when the referee doesn't whistle for them.

Everyone does it. They are all hypocrites.


But other teams don't blame them all fucking weeks as a UEFA conspiration theory. All the weeks. It is like a permanent CRY.
Djagulingu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany3605 Posts
January 16 2013 00:17 GMT
#4418
On January 16 2013 06:33 Twisted wrote:
Well he's being forced by Inter to choose Galatasaray and he basically says no so I don't know if that's disgusting?

On all of the other points I agree with you. It's terrible policy; spending that much money for a player in these times when they can hardly afford it (I think?) proves that point.

Well, he can then just say "no" instead of "uhh.. well, i have 2 more weeks to decide, so i'm taking my motherfucking time along with Galatasaray's" and no one would say shit. But he says the latter, that's fucking disgusting.

On the other hand, Galatasaray doesn't "hardly afford" Sneijder, but Sneijder will still shake the budget that should be reserved for other priorities.
"windows bash is a steaming heap of shit" tofucake
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-16 01:07:40
January 16 2013 01:05 GMT
#4419
On January 16 2013 06:14 sc4k wrote:
Yeah I don't know where this argument started about Pique and Puyol but I think they are fine. Puyol is a really great defender who has excellent timing. I think they also have just about enough physicality to deal with corners, they seem to be well defensively drilled at them.

And Sated...man, I was with you up until you called Rebs a fing moron, just gota stay away from swears, everyone likes keeping the football thread mannered. Even if we have disagreements.


To be fair I baited him pretty hard. I was a bit out of line aswell, my bad.

On January 16 2013 07:04 Twisted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 06:34 city42 wrote:
On January 16 2013 06:21 Twisted wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Didn't know about the January 15th deadline. That's interesting. I like Tottenham as well, especially since van der Vaart joined them. Sad that he left but another great Ajax player just joined them in Vertonghen so I'm glad about that.

In Dutch newssites and programs they're constantly talking about Sneijder's situation as well. He's our national squad captain so it's important he starts playing again for the upcoming qualification and world cup.

I think it's always a gamble when you give players multiple-year contracts though so that shouldn't be an argument for clubs that are willing and able to pay up should it?

You do need to build the entire team around a player like Sneijder though and that might be hard, dunno.

I forgot to give the source for the January 15th thing:

https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290091139216838656
https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290091496575754240
https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290091773882150912
https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/290092081899253760

series of tweets from an Italian journalist who has been very reliable reporting transfer news/updates involving Italian teams.

And Vertonghen is an amazing player, really glad to have him. At the same time, it's too bad that Ajax had to sell him. A great and historic club like Ajax deserves to keep its talent. I hope they are able to keep Eriksen for at least another year.


+ Show Spoiler +
Hehe thanks for the tweets!

And yeah it's a shame but that's what's football is about these years. Players go where the money is. Whenever a player in Ajax gets to be the best player (or one of the best) he transfers to a bigger club for a decent sum of money. Good thing is though that after they do leave, they usually become great players and in some cases absolute monsters at their new club. Last decade for example Ibrahimovitz, vd Vaart, Sneijder, Vermaelen and in more recent history Suarez, Vertonghen. So it's fun to follow them around and cheer for their new clubs and feel a bit of proudness that they do so well.
Also, the players that are now pulling the cart (so to speak) are de Jong (scored like 3 goals against ManC in CL this year), Eriksen and Alderweireld and it's highly likely that they'll transfer out next year.

There's an interesting time coming up though. They recently had big chances done to the management. The entire management and club culture has changed for the better after the Cruijff revolution as media call it here. Basically Cruijff said that the club should be led by people who know their football and were in contact with professional football in the past accompanied by people who know the business side of it. The last decade though, the club was in major decline with only people from the business world at the steering wheel. Huge investments were made into players that didn't bring anything to the table. It took 7 years before they finally won the league in 2011 again.

The idea behind the club being led by football players is most prominently visible in the youth academy. There's a golden amount of retired top players training these kids now right up to the first team. Frank de Boer and Dennis Bergkamp as the ones to manage the first team and then you have old players like Michel Kreek, Jaap Stam, Wim Jonk, Ronald de Boer, Bryan Roy, John Bosman and more players from the golden 1995 Ajax era training in all levels of the club. Marc Overmars and Edwin van der Sar are in the directing seats as well. This way the youth academy should shine once more and that way they want to reach the European top again in like.. 5 years. As long as they can keep the players until they're like 24ish they should be able to reach some of their goals even though the budget is sometimes 6-8 times smaller than that of the big European clubs.

Anyway, that's enough insight for my own lil' club for now . It's a good development and other clubs are also following the same philosophy here in Holland, like Feyenoord. They've been struggling a lot as well most of the past decade but I'm glad to see that they're doing better now and they're going to be serious title contenders again very soon. Yay go Holland! Should be good for the national squad as well.



The 90's era guys in the picture is certainly a heartening sign. I still feel at some point Ducth teams will have to cave to financial muscle from the big leagues but perhaps that will improve the national team culture atleast.

Still its rare that there isnt a huge wave of good dutch players in around the age of 20 which has been a regular occurrence atleast in my lifetime. Fingers crossed.

sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-16 02:21:04
January 16 2013 02:20 GMT
#4420
On January 16 2013 10:05 Rebs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 06:14 sc4k wrote:
Yeah I don't know where this argument started about Pique and Puyol but I think they are fine. Puyol is a really great defender who has excellent timing. I think they also have just about enough physicality to deal with corners, they seem to be well defensively drilled at them.

And Sated...man, I was with you up until you called Rebs a fing moron, just gota stay away from swears, everyone likes keeping the football thread mannered. Even if we have disagreements.


To be fair I baited him pretty hard. I was a bit out of line aswell, my bad.


You are a unique snowflake.

By the way, how funny would it be to have a football match between us who argue about tactics on the football thread. Me, Sated, Pandemona and the English guys vs Rebs, Steveling, Twisted and all the tikitaka fans. Then we will see who has the best football tactics. Also, what positions does everyone take? I take defensive midfield, and plan to go Vinnie Jones on everyone's ass, getting sent off round about the 20th minute for 'multiple carreer-ending tackle attempts' lol. Of course I will protest and in the post match interview complain about pansy referees being scared of the sight of a little profuse bleeding.

Who is the most impartial referee?? One of the Americans probably.
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