On March 13 2012 05:40 Gatored wrote: I just started on the SS workout 2 days ago and I have a few questions and also 2 videos on my form for deadlift/squat if you could critique those.
1. Are warmups needed for the deadlift if you do squats first and deadlifts last? It is annoying warming up with just the bar.
2. Is it okay to have your thumb over the bar for squats (I know you can't for bench)? It feels awkward with a full grip around the bar.
Here is one from the side:
You absolutely can bench with your thumb over the bar. Your grip is its strongest with a closed thumb. If you're pushing heavy weight, you may as well take the extra degree of safety over whatever physical benefit you get from leaving your thumb off. Mike Mentzer has a good demonstration of why to keep your thumb over the bar. It makes perfect sense, and it's worth trying to find.
Your back rounds during your DL. Don't do that. Concentrate on arching your back (the opposite of rounding).
And you're dipping your back way too much in the squat. Hold the bar higher probably, on your traps. Use a pad if the bar hurts your traps/vertebrae too much. It's kind of "unmanly" but who gives a shit? If I squat without the pad, I have pain in my neck for a week.
Your squat should look more like this, and less like yours:
I'm sorry this advice is bad. NEVER EVER FUCKING NEVER bench with the thumb over the bar. It is called the "suicide grip" guess why. It's also fucking weak. Just youtube for any powerlifting meet and they all put finger around the bar.
There are 2 type of squats; barbell over your traps or behind your shoulders, u are doing the latter fine. You need to focus more on pushing your ass back so your knees don't stick out as much. Never use the fucking pad, it ruins ur technique, makes it more likely the bar will slip and the bar will still hurt if its gets heavy enough and you haven't worked your technique.
On March 13 2012 05:40 Gatored wrote: I just started on the SS workout 2 days ago and I have a few questions and also 2 videos on my form for deadlift/squat if you could critique those.
1. Are warmups needed for the deadlift if you do squats first and deadlifts last? It is annoying warming up with just the bar.
2. Is it okay to have your thumb over the bar for squats (I know you can't for bench)? It feels awkward with a full grip around the bar.
You absolutely can bench with your thumb over the bar. Your grip is its strongest with a closed thumb. If you're pushing heavy weight, you may as well take the extra degree of safety over whatever physical benefit you get from leaving your thumb off. Mike Mentzer has a good demonstration of why to keep your thumb over the bar. It makes perfect sense, and it's worth trying to find.
Your back rounds during your DL. Don't do that. Concentrate on arching your back (the opposite of rounding).
And you're dipping your back way too much in the squat. Hold the bar higher probably, on your traps. Use a pad if the bar hurts your traps/vertebrae too much. It's kind of "unmanly" but who gives a shit? If I squat without the pad, I have pain in my neck for a week.
Your squat should look more like this, and less like yours:
I'm sorry this advice is bad. NEVER EVER FUCKING NEVER bench with the thumb over the bar. It is called the "suicide grip" guess whay. It's also fucking weak. Just youtube for any powerlifting meet and they all put finger around the bar.
There are 2 type of squats; barbell over your traps or behind your shoulders, u are doing the latter fine. You need to focus more on pushing your ass back so your knees don't stick out as much. Never use the fucking pad, it ruins ur technique, makes it more likely the bar will slip and the bar will still hurt if its gets heavy enough and you haven't worked your technique.
Well, at almost 400lbs (385ish) it's not hurting my neck at all. And it hasn't slipped once. It's fine to use the pad.
IF you want to tell PL guys how to bench, or talk about how they bench, you should probably know first...
Notice that his thumb is grasping the bar.
Also this video:
Again, if you wanna talk PL'ers, there's a world-class PL'ers opinion on this.
I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying there's no reason not to.
For anyone who is kind of new to things, it's typically good to not follow people who speak in absolutes. Just a tip. In the end, do what works for you as long as it isn't incredibly stupid/hurting you.
On March 13 2012 05:40 Gatored wrote: I just started on the SS workout 2 days ago and I have a few questions and also 2 videos on my form for deadlift/squat if you could critique those.
1. Are warmups needed for the deadlift if you do squats first and deadlifts last? It is annoying warming up with just the bar.
2. Is it okay to have your thumb over the bar for squats (I know you can't for bench)? It feels awkward with a full grip around the bar.
You absolutely can bench with your thumb over the bar. Your grip is its strongest with a closed thumb. If you're pushing heavy weight, you may as well take the extra degree of safety over whatever physical benefit you get from leaving your thumb off. Mike Mentzer has a good demonstration of why to keep your thumb over the bar. It makes perfect sense, and it's worth trying to find.
Your back rounds during your DL. Don't do that. Concentrate on arching your back (the opposite of rounding).
And you're dipping your back way too much in the squat. Hold the bar higher probably, on your traps. Use a pad if the bar hurts your traps/vertebrae too much. It's kind of "unmanly" but who gives a shit? If I squat without the pad, I have pain in my neck for a week.
Your squat should look more like this, and less like yours:
I'm sorry this advice is bad. NEVER EVER FUCKING NEVER bench with the thumb over the bar. It is called the "suicide grip" guess whay. It's also fucking weak. Just youtube for any powerlifting meet and they all put finger around the bar.
There are 2 type of squats; barbell over your traps or behind your shoulders, u are doing the latter fine. You need to focus more on pushing your ass back so your knees don't stick out as much. Never use the fucking pad, it ruins ur technique, makes it more likely the bar will slip and the bar will still hurt if its gets heavy enough and you haven't worked your technique.
Well, at almost 400lbs (385ish) it's not hurting my neck at all. And it hasn't slipped once. It's fine to use the pad.
IF you want to tell PL guys how to bench, or talk about how they bench, you should probably know first...
I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying there's no reason not to.
For anyone who is kind of new to things, it's typically good to not follow people who speak in absolutes. Just a tip. In the end, do what works for you as long as it isn't incredibly stupid/hurting you.
Alright, I think you are misunderstanding. The OP said thumb over the bar as in thumb on the same side as the rest of the fingers, and you said that he could absolutely do that. So I think you might be misunderstanding. Also, I look down upon pad using as well as mostly everybody, as far as I know.
On a light weight with a high bar squat a pad isn't that big an issue imo. I think the reasons a lot of people don't like it is that it's an issue at high weight and people aim for the sky, and they're a bad idea for low bar squats as the bar is pushed further away from the back and doesn't sit correctly. I used to use one and had no issue, now I do low bar squats I don't.
On March 13 2012 05:40 Gatored wrote: I just started on the SS workout 2 days ago and I have a few questions and also 2 videos on my form for deadlift/squat if you could critique those.
1. Are warmups needed for the deadlift if you do squats first and deadlifts last? It is annoying warming up with just the bar.
2. Is it okay to have your thumb over the bar for squats (I know you can't for bench)? It feels awkward with a full grip around the bar.
You absolutely can bench with your thumb over the bar. Your grip is its strongest with a closed thumb. If you're pushing heavy weight, you may as well take the extra degree of safety over whatever physical benefit you get from leaving your thumb off. Mike Mentzer has a good demonstration of why to keep your thumb over the bar. It makes perfect sense, and it's worth trying to find.
Your back rounds during your DL. Don't do that. Concentrate on arching your back (the opposite of rounding).
And you're dipping your back way too much in the squat. Hold the bar higher probably, on your traps. Use a pad if the bar hurts your traps/vertebrae too much. It's kind of "unmanly" but who gives a shit? If I squat without the pad, I have pain in my neck for a week.
Your squat should look more like this, and less like yours:
I'm sorry this advice is bad. NEVER EVER FUCKING NEVER bench with the thumb over the bar. It is called the "suicide grip" guess whay. It's also fucking weak. Just youtube for any powerlifting meet and they all put finger around the bar.
There are 2 type of squats; barbell over your traps or behind your shoulders, u are doing the latter fine. You need to focus more on pushing your ass back so your knees don't stick out as much. Never use the fucking pad, it ruins ur technique, makes it more likely the bar will slip and the bar will still hurt if its gets heavy enough and you haven't worked your technique.
Well, at almost 400lbs (385ish) it's not hurting my neck at all. And it hasn't slipped once. It's fine to use the pad.
IF you want to tell PL guys how to bench, or talk about how they bench, you should probably know first...
I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying there's no reason not to.
For anyone who is kind of new to things, it's typically good to not follow people who speak in absolutes. Just a tip. In the end, do what works for you as long as it isn't incredibly stupid/hurting you.
I think someone misunderstood someone on the bench? the thumb is clearly opposing the other 4 fingers in both vids?
On the pad issue, I can tell you you are squatting 385 in spite of using it; dunnow how heavy you are. Powerlifters never ever use it for a reason. Hopefully you don't injure yourself when weights get heavier.
On March 12 2012 22:59 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: @Daigomi Rip does NOT recommend all lifts starting at 20kg. He recommends starting each set of warmups with the empty bar, as in even if you're gonna go for a 300pounds bench you warmup with the empty bar. He thinks your starting weight for the very first damn session should be when form starts breaking down/the weight slows down considerably. It's still low, but for most adult males that's going to be like a 60-70kg deadlift at least.
My mistake. It seems like I got SL and SS mixed up. In that case, I agree with Lemons on this. Asking absolute beginners to start on their 5RM with an exercise that's got a reasonable risk of injury, when they have no real experience doing that exercise, is simply begging for an injury. I much prefer SL's approach of starting with the bar and working yourself up to your 5RM over the first few weeks. It gives you a few sessions to learn proper technique and ensures that all the small stabilising muscles are ready for the heavier weights once you get there. Of course, if you have a proper trainer ensuring that your technique is correct it's a different story, but I'm guessing that's not the case for most people.
I really feel that you can start with a 50kg deadlift for most adult males and have a stupidly low chance of having them injure themselves. With proper form the right muscles will be strenghtened sooner, leading to more safety in the long run. Deadlift form is pretty easy if you actually follow good advice (Rip/Tate/Bolton whatever), assuming you aren't trying to pulling WR's and even then I think it isn't as mechanically challenging as say Snatching or Squatting.
Yeah, with deadlift I think starting on 50kg is probably fine. I started on 40kg even though I was doing SL, since pulling just the bar without any plates (for height) is annoying as shit. 50kg is still quite far away from most people's starting 5RM if I had to guess, so it's still an opportunity to learn the technique before you get to a point where you really struggle.
As you mention, DL technique is much easier than squat technique but I still wouldn't want to start someone of at their max. Even people who've been deadlifting for a while lose their shape when they lift their max (upper back/lower back bends). If you ask someone who doesn't even know how a DL is supposed to feel to lift their max, chances are they'll have terrible form and no idea that their form should be better.
Also, and this is just me being pedantic, but starting at 50kg wouldn't lead to increased safety (it wouldn't necessarily lead to increased risk either). Assume there are two people (Sam and Bob) who start exercising. Sam starts two weeks before Bob but starts deadlift at 20kg. By the time Sam reaches 50kg, Bob starts at 50kg, and from there on their workouts are identical. The only difference between Sam and Bob at each weight they lift is that Sam has done some additional (probably useless) sessions at 20kg. Since doing deadlifts on 20kg has a very small effect, their chances of injury are roughly the same :p
So I was just over at /fit/ and someone commented on deadlift form by mentioning Konstantinov Konstantinov and his rounded upper back style. I googled a bit and found this interview: link.
This man is ridiculously strong. And it seems he gets away with lifting "wrong". I don't know how to feel about that :p
On March 13 2012 01:36 Pulimuli wrote: tried some running yesterday, first time in almost 3 years, felt good but goddamn it hurts everywhere today ^^ did 5km then it felt like my lunges were going to break and my legs were gelly
I think I'm gonna have to start running again as well. My stamina is ridiculously bad. During my squat work sets I start gasping for air like a drowning man after 2-3 reps. But I hate cardio >_<
On March 13 2012 05:40 Gatored wrote: I just started on the SS workout 2 days ago and I have a few questions and also 2 videos on my form for deadlift/squat if you could critique those.
1. Are warmups needed for the deadlift if you do squats first and deadlifts last? It is annoying warming up with just the bar.
2. Is it okay to have your thumb over the bar for squats (I know you can't for bench)? It feels awkward with a full grip around the bar.
1. Specific warmups perhaps, though their advantages are apparently disputed. 2. You're supposed to :p
If you hate cardio, having sex is a pretty good cardio. ask celltech ;D. or decaf..where's that mofo these days?
Nothing like sweating all over your girlfriend/wife's face due to sex cardio. haha reminds me of the time when I... ok yeah I'll stop too much information, but you get the idea.
No, I misunderstood the way it was being described. I thought you guys were advocating having the thumb next to the hand, not around the bar. My mistake. That's really stupid to not wrap the bar.
I think this sentence "Your grip is its strongest with a closed thumb [grip]" should have been a give away that I was actually meaning the exact same thing as you guys though. Either way, we're all in agreement.
I have no respect for anyone who uses a pad for squatting, it's dubbed as the sissy pad for a reason. Man the fuck up, if the bar scrapes and blood splatters like a slit cow's throat from that area then all the better.
Also Lemon, I find it funny how you disrespected me a few pages ago by saying what I said about consistency and genetics is the most "incorrect thing you've ever seen" but you use a pad lol. Fuck off.
On March 13 2012 11:36 decafchicken wrote: Never use the fucking pad. If you need it it's because you're doing something wrong.
Ever.
Also the reason why a little warmup on the Deadlift or anything else is recommended (especially for beginners) is because I imagine it helps reduce risk of injury (just like in any other sport), and secondly it gives you a few more light reps to help you focus on your technique so you don't have to figure out where the bar has to move with 400 pounds in your hands.
On March 13 2012 14:56 Kamais Ookin wrote: I have no respect for anyone who uses a pad for squatting, it's dubbed as the sissy pad for a reason. Man the fuck up, if the bar scrapes and blood splatters like a slit cow's throat from that area then all the better.
Also Lemon, I find it funny how you disrespected me a few pages ago by saying what I said about consistency and genetics is the most "incorrect thing you've ever seen" but you use a pad lol. Fuck off.
LOLOLOL! LOOK HOW MACHO I AM! I SQUAT WITH NO PAD! LOLOLOL! That makes everything I say correct, even when it's entirely incorrect. LOLOLOL!
Tell the guy that's trying to get big, and has spent two years in the gym doing smart routines, but can't gain respectable muscle that genetics are nothing compared to consistency. You're just wrong. There's no reason to respect people when they're blatantly incorrect.
There is literally nothing wrong with the pad, as long as you're not allowing the bar to slide down your back (the one I use is rubber, and does not slip as a result of having a nylon cover), or losing bar stability. I don't have stability issues with it on, and for whatever reason, my traps do not want to grow, so there's nothing there to protect the vertebrae... It's either constantly deal with a bruised vertebrae, or use a pad. And I've squatted plenty without the pad, it doesn't go away. Machoism isn't what the gym is about, so I don't really give two shits what you think. And I've done plenty of direct trap work (front shrug 315 for 5-6 reps x 3 sets, and/or back shrug 275 for 5-6 reps x 3 sets and I can't get growth.... tell my traps that genetics don't matter).
Keep being an internet tough guy though, it's working really well for you.
On March 13 2012 11:36 decafchicken wrote: Never use the fucking pad. If you need it it's because you're doing something wrong.
Ever.
Also the reason why a little warmup on the Deadlift or anything else is recommended (especially for beginners) is because I imagine it helps reduce risk of injury (just like in any other sport), and secondly it gives you a few more light reps to help you focus on your technique so you don't have to figure out where the bar has to move with 400 pounds in your hands.
Yep, warm ups are very important because you warm the muscles (get blood flowing through them and reduce any stiffness there may be in them), and the neurological programming that takes place when doing them. 9-12 reps moving up to your 1RM should get you in the groove.
There's no such thing as a guy not getting good results from 2 years of training unless he was inconsistent. You're either trolling or retarded, either way it pisses me off.
Rant on all you want about how it's ok to use the sissy pad, even though everyone else in this thread say it isn't good to use it which further tells me you're either trolling or retarded. I'm disgusted that I'm feeling angry for the first from this thread where usually I like supporting people and having a good time in general. I hope your vertebrate snaps you sour lemon scum piece of shit.
I wouldn't classify a single person in this thread as an "expert" even though some of them are gym rats. No one has provided a reason grounded in fact on why not to use the pad. The best explanation I found was that it can lead to instability on the bar, or that it might slip down your back. If both problems are avoided, it's not a problem.
Not getting any results is not the same as not building respectable muscle. Keep up with the machoisms. You're very well suited to them.
The pad will position the bar higher which in turn will change your leverage for the worse. You want the bar as low as possible to move maximum weight. It will have a higher likelyhood of sliding down your back and you can't properly feel the bar, which is the same reason people like to deadlift barefoot. It could also possibly work the same way as deadlifting/squatting in running shoes by absorbing power when you push up from the hole, that's only my own theory though but I find it likely to be the case.
On March 13 2012 17:16 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: I wouldn't classify a single person in this thread as an "expert" even though some of them are gym rats. No one has provided a reason grounded in fact on why not to use the pad. The best explanation I found was that it can lead to instability on the bar, or that it might slip down your back. If both problems are avoided, it's not a problem.
Not getting any results is not the same as not building respectable muscle. Keep up with the machoisms. You're very well suited to them.
Cool. Likewise, keep up with the sissy pad, can't wait until shit goes wrong and you snap cleanly in half.
Anyways, it's unfortunate but I have to avoid someone for the first time in these sections which I hate doing, can't be helped though you rub me the wrong way. This is best for my sanity so, please don't ever message me again and I won't message you ever again, I already have enough stress in my life and I don't need to get angry over a fucker like you when I come here for positive purposes.
On March 13 2012 17:31 Sneakyz wrote: The pad will position the bar higher which in turn will change your leverage for the worse. You want the bar as low as possible to move maximum weight. It will have a higher likelyhood of sliding down your back and you can't properly feel the bar, which is the same reason people like to deadlift barefoot. It could also possibly work the same way as deadlifting/squatting in running shoes by absorbing power when you push up from the hole, that's only my own theory though but I find it likely to be the case.
And if I'm not worried about the minor power loss that I might incur since I'm not power lifting, per se?
"Exactly how you squat will depend on how you are built and what your goals are. If the goal is to build big legs I would go with more of a high bar type squat. There is obviously a middle ground between good morning type powerlifting squats and very upright full olympic squats."
On March 13 2012 17:31 Sneakyz wrote: The pad will position the bar higher which in turn will change your leverage for the worse. You want the bar as low as possible to move maximum weight. It will have a higher likelyhood of sliding down your back and you can't properly feel the bar, which is the same reason people like to deadlift barefoot. It could also possibly work the same way as deadlifting/squatting in running shoes by absorbing power when you push up from the hole, that's only my own theory though but I find it likely to be the case.
And if I'm not worried about the minor power loss that I might incur since I'm not power lifting, per se?
"Exactly how you squat will depend on how you are built and what your goals are. If the goal is to build big legs I would go with more of a high bar type squat. There is obviously a middle ground between good morning type powerlifting squats and very upright full olympic squats."
at least half of this thread squats high bar (myself, funkie, the Olympic guys, celltech, etc.) just because we're total badasses and we feel like doing it. The thing about the pad isn't necessarily the change in bar position - that's minimal, and it's changed to the same damn extent by growing a pair and working your trap muscles. What the pad does do, is make you upper back "squishy" and destablilize the bar, which actually IS important if you expect to move a respectable number of kilos, weather you are high bar or low bar squatting.
Short answer man the fuck up, pinch your upper back so you pop dem traps, and set the barbell on your shoulders. If it bothers you badly enough to need the pad, you have other problems.
Actually I don't like Rippetoe, you shouldn't make such assumptions. There is no need to do anything so that's not a very convincing arguement.
Low bar will develop your hamstrings more than high bar, but if your goal from squatting is big quads and you feel like you get enough hamstring work from deadlifts, yes do high bar.
I'll probably start squatting high bar once I get my knees fixed because they can't handle low bar. There's nothing wrong with anything as long as you know why.
EPT
