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Bodyweight Training - Page 8

Forum Index > Sports
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mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
February 28 2012 19:05 GMT
#141
I find that if I bend my legs back and then start the pull/chin ups at full extension it helps lessen the swing. I've had that happen to me even if I don't try and use my lower body for momentum.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
February 29 2012 00:02 GMT
#142
On February 27 2012 22:19 eshlow wrote:
Okay, here's the answers to your questions.

Show nested quote +
I mean regardless of your goals in weight training, whether it be beach body, olympic lifts/power, bodybuilding, raw strength, sport performance, etc. you can point a beginner to a routine like SS/SL which lays out what exercises to do, when and how to progress, and have them on their way.

Why can't I find something like this for bodyweight training?


At beginner level... let say working on handstand, L-sit, dips, pullups, rows, and some pushup variation, pistols/single leg squat there's not much stuff you can do OTHER than that which would be more optimal than what you're doing.

However, once you work your way into an advanced beginner/intermediate level of strength you can be doing tons of things: planches, back lever, front lever, dips, pullups, rows, pushups, handstand pushups, muscle ups, etc.

Once you get more advanced that that there's TONS of more stuff you can do.

The "Skill trees" branch off so much that training that it really actually depends on your goals beyond beginner level of ability.

Show nested quote +
How do I figure out what exercises to include for balanced training, when to progress (e.g. for how long do I have to be able to hold a particular hold before moving onto the more difficult variation etc), and how to structure my sets/reps/time holds/rest periods/workout days?
The closest thing I've found is the 'routine construction' subsection from eatmoveimprove as linked in the OP, and even there it's quite general with no particular details as to what actually constitutes "5-10 minutes of wall handstand work" or what level of proficiency is required to move onto the next progression exercise


The EMI link is probably the best programming article on the internet for bodyweight work, so you're not going to get much more detail than that aside from people answering your questions.

I also laid out guidelines for all of your questions within the Overcoming Gravity book.

Regardless, here's some answers since telling you to buy the book isn't constructive.

1. Balanced training -- generally structure so you have as many push as pull exercises.

2. Holds depend on your current ability... I would say aim for about 60-70% of your max hold and 3-5 sets aiming toward about a minute of holds. Though this is general; I constructed a prilepin table for isometrics in the book.

3. sets/rest/etc. depends on your goals (strength/hypertrophy/what what level of progression you're on, etc.)

4. 5-10 mins of handstand work varies depending on how much time you have to work the skills... if shorter time, then you do 5-10 minutes total and work on increasing time inverted while making sure you're not fatigued such that you have bad practice. Or, if you're more advanced you can spend 5-10 minutes total inverted. Many options inbetween those two.

5. The proficiency to move onto the next progression is variable... the guidelines I laid out in the book is being able to get a 5-6s hold, 3 reps of the next exercise, or 3s eccentric. But it depends on what exercise progression you are at and if you need some intermediate steps between them


Perfect, thanks for this.
I also found some beginner warmup holds on gymnasticbodies as well as that concept of 'steady state cycle' which seems widespread.
Off I go ;D
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 01:18:51
February 29 2012 00:44 GMT
#143
On February 29 2012 09:02 JeeJee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2012 22:19 eshlow wrote:
Okay, here's the answers to your questions.

I mean regardless of your goals in weight training, whether it be beach body, olympic lifts/power, bodybuilding, raw strength, sport performance, etc. you can point a beginner to a routine like SS/SL which lays out what exercises to do, when and how to progress, and have them on their way.

Why can't I find something like this for bodyweight training?


At beginner level... let say working on handstand, L-sit, dips, pullups, rows, and some pushup variation, pistols/single leg squat there's not much stuff you can do OTHER than that which would be more optimal than what you're doing.

However, once you work your way into an advanced beginner/intermediate level of strength you can be doing tons of things: planches, back lever, front lever, dips, pullups, rows, pushups, handstand pushups, muscle ups, etc.

Once you get more advanced that that there's TONS of more stuff you can do.

The "Skill trees" branch off so much that training that it really actually depends on your goals beyond beginner level of ability.

How do I figure out what exercises to include for balanced training, when to progress (e.g. for how long do I have to be able to hold a particular hold before moving onto the more difficult variation etc), and how to structure my sets/reps/time holds/rest periods/workout days?
The closest thing I've found is the 'routine construction' subsection from eatmoveimprove as linked in the OP, and even there it's quite general with no particular details as to what actually constitutes "5-10 minutes of wall handstand work" or what level of proficiency is required to move onto the next progression exercise


The EMI link is probably the best programming article on the internet for bodyweight work, so you're not going to get much more detail than that aside from people answering your questions.

I also laid out guidelines for all of your questions within the Overcoming Gravity book.

Regardless, here's some answers since telling you to buy the book isn't constructive.

1. Balanced training -- generally structure so you have as many push as pull exercises.

2. Holds depend on your current ability... I would say aim for about 60-70% of your max hold and 3-5 sets aiming toward about a minute of holds. Though this is general; I constructed a prilepin table for isometrics in the book.

3. sets/rest/etc. depends on your goals (strength/hypertrophy/what what level of progression you're on, etc.)

4. 5-10 mins of handstand work varies depending on how much time you have to work the skills... if shorter time, then you do 5-10 minutes total and work on increasing time inverted while making sure you're not fatigued such that you have bad practice. Or, if you're more advanced you can spend 5-10 minutes total inverted. Many options inbetween those two.

5. The proficiency to move onto the next progression is variable... the guidelines I laid out in the book is being able to get a 5-6s hold, 3 reps of the next exercise, or 3s eccentric. But it depends on what exercise progression you are at and if you need some intermediate steps between them


Perfect, thanks for this.
I also found some beginner warmup holds on gymnasticbodies as well as that concept of 'steady state cycle' which seems widespread.
Off I go ;D


Well, you can do that if you want.

I personally think steady state cycles underestimate the ability of novices and intermediates to adapt and thus will give you slower progress. Thus, I don't advise them at all.

Though, I guess I should say the disclaimer that Sommer pretty much banned me off his forum (changed my e-mail and then deactivated my account) for producing Overcoming Gravity and he deletes all references to it off of GB. So take that for what you will.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
February 29 2012 02:32 GMT
#144
btw i was talking with a trainer at rutgers who does bodyweight training and he said he knows you from a parkour forum eshlow!

I am going to buy your book at start doing some of it in the mornings since I need to get stronger.
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
February 29 2012 17:43 GMT
#145
On February 29 2012 11:32 AoN.DimSum wrote:
btw i was talking with a trainer at rutgers who does bodyweight training and he said he knows you from a parkour forum eshlow!

I am going to buy your book at start doing some of it in the mornings since I need to get stronger.


Got a name for me?

I know a couple of people from Rutgers :p

Sounds good though.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
AndyJay
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 11:14:34
March 08 2012 11:11 GMT
#146
Woo huge progress session today, first muscle up (on wide chin up bars, needed a big swing) and first decent set of wall handstand pushups. Only thing I'm really disappointed in is my L sit progress, not even close to getting my legs horizontal on dip bars for even a second. I can hold my legs with a 90 deg bend on dip bars for 30 seconds but can't seem to get them up straight more then 45 deg, really annoying. I can hold a tuck L sit on the ground for around 5 seconds. Not sure what to focus on, my choices are

leg raises with back support
leg raises on dip bar/hanging
bent knee hold on dip bar/hanging
straight leg hold at angle
L sit tuck practise on ground

or maybe something else or just all of the above?

Really want that L sit godamnit!

Oh yeah found another thing it seems I'm actually good at, weighted chin ups. I'm up to 20kg 5x3. For some reason these are easier for me than the dips which I struggle to get 2 sets out. Going for 25 5x3 next week.
StuartLove
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany267 Posts
March 08 2012 12:00 GMT
#147
you`re good
We Love ...
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
March 08 2012 13:29 GMT
#148
On March 08 2012 20:11 AndyJay wrote:
Woo huge progress session today, first muscle up (on wide chin up bars, needed a big swing) and first decent set of wall handstand pushups. Only thing I'm really disappointed in is my L sit progress, not even close to getting my legs horizontal on dip bars for even a second. I can hold my legs with a 90 deg bend on dip bars for 30 seconds but can't seem to get them up straight more then 45 deg, really annoying. I can hold a tuck L sit on the ground for around 5 seconds. Not sure what to focus on, my choices are

leg raises with back support
leg raises on dip bar/hanging
bent knee hold on dip bar/hanging
straight leg hold at angle
L sit tuck practise on ground

or maybe something else or just all of the above?

Really want that L sit godamnit!

Oh yeah found another thing it seems I'm actually good at, weighted chin ups. I'm up to 20kg 5x3. For some reason these are easier for me than the dips which I struggle to get 2 sets out. Going for 25 5x3 next week.


Does it feel like a strength issue, or flexibility issue, or both?

My choice for strengthening is either hanging leg raises, or compression work

flexibility obviously you gotta work on your hammies
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 15:31:13
March 08 2012 15:30 GMT
#149
On March 01 2012 02:43 eshlow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 11:32 AoN.DimSum wrote:
btw i was talking with a trainer at rutgers who does bodyweight training and he said he knows you from a parkour forum eshlow!

I am going to buy your book at start doing some of it in the mornings since I need to get stronger.


Got a name for me?

I know a couple of people from Rutgers :p

Sounds good though.



Chris, i dont really know his last name. But he recently got usaw certified so he can be a trainer in the olympic weightlifting gym.

btw who else do you know at rutgers?
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
March 08 2012 17:04 GMT
#150
On March 09 2012 00:30 AoN.DimSum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2012 02:43 eshlow wrote:
On February 29 2012 11:32 AoN.DimSum wrote:
btw i was talking with a trainer at rutgers who does bodyweight training and he said he knows you from a parkour forum eshlow!

I am going to buy your book at start doing some of it in the mornings since I need to get stronger.


Got a name for me?

I know a couple of people from Rutgers :p

Sounds good though.



Chris, i dont really know his last name. But he recently got usaw certified so he can be a trainer in the olympic weightlifting gym.

btw who else do you know at rutgers?


Ah... Chris Moran perhaps?

I know a couple people from the PK community there who I've met maybe once or twice.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
AndyJay
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 22:32:43
March 08 2012 21:18 GMT
#151
On March 08 2012 22:29 eshlow wrote:
Does it feel like a strength issue, or flexibility issue, or both?

My choice for strengthening is either hanging leg raises, or compression work

flexibility obviously you gotta work on your hammies


I do have poor flexibility, although it is definitely improving, but I don't think it's my limiting factor. I can raise my legs up to horizontal fine on this piece of equipment.

[image loading]

I'm guessing my inability to do it with out the back support means I'm lacking core (mainly abdominal) strength? In support of this hypothesis is my completely shitty ability to do situps. I really struggle doing 15 normal un weighted situps.

What's an example of compression work? I'm not familiar with the term.

Also I put an order in for your book Eshlow! Hopefully I won't have to ask so many questions through a forum after it comes.
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 02:38:02
March 09 2012 02:37 GMT
#152
I talk about compression work in this article:

http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2010/03/the-fundamentals-of-bodyweight-strength-training/

It's basically the way to work core like you would for L-sit then V-sit then manna except not actually bringing the arms positioning into the equation

If your abs/hip flexors are weak this will help you improve that.

But yeah, I talk about it in the book too.... and much more!
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-13 19:47:58
March 13 2012 19:46 GMT
#153
Has anyone here got any experience in incorporating bodyweight training into a standard SL type schedule?

I've just started SL from what I was doing before, and wondering what bodyweight exercises people have done on what days. Raw strength is my main focus, but there's something attractive about being able to master your own bodyweight. Seems like there's some good core focused stuff there too (that's not just lower back from squats/deadlift).
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
March 14 2012 00:07 GMT
#154
On March 14 2012 04:46 Deadeight wrote:
Has anyone here got any experience in incorporating bodyweight training into a standard SL type schedule?

I've just started SL from what I was doing before, and wondering what bodyweight exercises people have done on what days. Raw strength is my main focus, but there's something attractive about being able to master your own bodyweight. Seems like there's some good core focused stuff there too (that's not just lower back from squats/deadlift).


Writing an article on bodyweight integrated with weights in the near future.

It pretty much boils down on what you want to learn though.... if there's specific skills or strength moves like handstands, handstand pushups, planche, front lever, etc then you can focus on those...
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 08:04:50
March 14 2012 08:04 GMT
#155
I read the two first chapters of your book Eshlow and so far I am very impressed. Quite a few of the things you can read on your sites and the guides on TL, but nonetheless it's really good. Im setting some goals but haven't gotten to point of constructing the workout plan yet. Nonetheless I really like your systematic method of explaining the things to the newbie and then using it. Looking forward to your piece on integrating bodyweight with SS stuff.
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 14:00:05
March 14 2012 13:56 GMT
#156
On March 14 2012 09:07 eshlow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2012 04:46 Deadeight wrote:
Has anyone here got any experience in incorporating bodyweight training into a standard SL type schedule?

I've just started SL from what I was doing before, and wondering what bodyweight exercises people have done on what days. Raw strength is my main focus, but there's something attractive about being able to master your own bodyweight. Seems like there's some good core focused stuff there too (that's not just lower back from squats/deadlift).


Writing an article on bodyweight integrated with weights in the near future.

It pretty much boils down on what you want to learn though.... if there's specific skills or strength moves like handstands, handstand pushups, planche, front lever, etc then you can focus on those...



A handstand pushup was actually what I was thinking of, I've never even managed close to a handstand before. I'm 6ft2 and I want to focus on getting a big squat/DL, so maybe it's not a realistic goal for the near future, but I want to build up to it.

I'm guessing your book covers this? Is US amazon the only way to purchase it?
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 23:05:09
March 17 2012 23:04 GMT
#157
On March 14 2012 17:04 Advocado wrote:
I read the two first chapters of your book Eshlow and so far I am very impressed. Quite a few of the things you can read on your sites and the guides on TL, but nonetheless it's really good. Im setting some goals but haven't gotten to point of constructing the workout plan yet. Nonetheless I really like your systematic method of explaining the things to the newbie and then using it. Looking forward to your piece on integrating bodyweight with SS stuff.


Excellent.

On March 14 2012 22:56 Deadeight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2012 09:07 eshlow wrote:
On March 14 2012 04:46 Deadeight wrote:
Has anyone here got any experience in incorporating bodyweight training into a standard SL type schedule?

I've just started SL from what I was doing before, and wondering what bodyweight exercises people have done on what days. Raw strength is my main focus, but there's something attractive about being able to master your own bodyweight. Seems like there's some good core focused stuff there too (that's not just lower back from squats/deadlift).


Writing an article on bodyweight integrated with weights in the near future.

It pretty much boils down on what you want to learn though.... if there's specific skills or strength moves like handstands, handstand pushups, planche, front lever, etc then you can focus on those...



A handstand pushup was actually what I was thinking of, I've never even managed close to a handstand before. I'm 6ft2 and I want to focus on getting a big squat/DL, so maybe it's not a realistic goal for the near future, but I want to build up to it.

I'm guessing your book covers this? Is US amazon the only way to purchase it?


Yeah, Amazon.com is the only way to purchase it at the moment... I'm trying to look at some other options for European customers though. :\
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
KOVU
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark708 Posts
March 18 2012 08:54 GMT
#158
On March 18 2012 08:04 eshlow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2012 17:04 Advocado wrote:
I read the two first chapters of your book Eshlow and so far I am very impressed. Quite a few of the things you can read on your sites and the guides on TL, but nonetheless it's really good. Im setting some goals but haven't gotten to point of constructing the workout plan yet. Nonetheless I really like your systematic method of explaining the things to the newbie and then using it. Looking forward to your piece on integrating bodyweight with SS stuff.


Excellent.

Show nested quote +
On March 14 2012 22:56 Deadeight wrote:
On March 14 2012 09:07 eshlow wrote:
On March 14 2012 04:46 Deadeight wrote:
Has anyone here got any experience in incorporating bodyweight training into a standard SL type schedule?

I've just started SL from what I was doing before, and wondering what bodyweight exercises people have done on what days. Raw strength is my main focus, but there's something attractive about being able to master your own bodyweight. Seems like there's some good core focused stuff there too (that's not just lower back from squats/deadlift).


Writing an article on bodyweight integrated with weights in the near future.

It pretty much boils down on what you want to learn though.... if there's specific skills or strength moves like handstands, handstand pushups, planche, front lever, etc then you can focus on those...



A handstand pushup was actually what I was thinking of, I've never even managed close to a handstand before. I'm 6ft2 and I want to focus on getting a big squat/DL, so maybe it's not a realistic goal for the near future, but I want to build up to it.

I'm guessing your book covers this? Is US amazon the only way to purchase it?


Yeah, Amazon.com is the only way to purchase it at the moment... I'm trying to look at some other options for European customers though. :\

You could try amazon.co.uk? They ship to all of Europe, I'm sure you though about this option tho
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 18:21:32
March 19 2012 17:40 GMT
#159
Does this routine make any sense at all? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqFnprZP1vIhdDI0WjBfR29lcHhJWnA2TGpuTS1GZlE

Flag is put there as an afterthought because I want to able to do it, but don't quite know where it belongs.

I got access to a gym, should I mix in squats?
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
AndyJay
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia833 Posts
March 20 2012 06:38 GMT
#160
Just received my copy of Overcoming Gravity... there is a hell of a lot of words in this book. Gonna keep me busy for a while.
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