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On May 15 2012 18:33 Nazarene wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:31 L_Master wrote:On May 15 2012 05:14 Nazarene wrote:
Fuck, just did 3x8 intervals of 30 sec sprint:180 sec pause. We'd set markers up after the 1st run to set a distance that we should try to get to in the following intervals.
I'm already sore, brutal. Hmm, this doesn't sound brutal at all to me. 6:1 ratio of rest to work is tons of rest, and even if you ran these at 400m pace it doesn't sound all that hard. If your not used to running fast I have no doubts you'll feel good and sore though. EDIT: Wait, what the heck kind of pace was this at? 400m? 800m? mile? I just noticed you said 3x8...4000-4800 meters is a good bit of work, even if it's mile pace work (I'm assuming it's this pace or faster since you referred to it as "sprinting"). I have no idea why I wrote 3x8, as we only did 8 intervals  but I'm talking all out sprinting for 30 secs. I haven't run for quite a while, my daily training consists of lots of heavy lifting. My plan is to run these intervals once a week and lift the rest of the week.
What is the goal of these intervals?
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On May 16 2012 13:53 L_Master wrote:
What is the goal of these intervals?
Get better cardio :p I CrossFit, so I need to be able to lift weights at a high intensity.
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On May 16 2012 21:06 Nazarene wrote:Get better cardio :p I CrossFit, so I need to be able to lift weights at a high intensity.
I was worried this might be the response.
That 30 second sprint w/3 min recovery is really more of a sprint workout if anything. Your working more on power and lactate clearance if anything with a workout like this. I'm trying to decide if it's even a good workout for a sprinter to do. An 800m runner might do a workout like this, but it won't be done sprinting; more like 800m pace which is a couple notches below an all out sprint. Workouts like that, very short workbouts w/long rest at relatively high intensity (400-1500m pace) are generally designed for efficiency/economy/relaxation at pace and developing turnover in the legs and do not, nor are intended, to do anything for aerobic development.
Doing 8x200 (roughly) at all out doesn't seem like a good workout to me. It's too far to actually sprint, which means by the end your form is falling apart and your teaching yourself bad habits, and if you want to do all out sprints for top end speed you want shorter distance with MUCH longer recovery (like 5-10+ min). If your going for development of aerobic capacity/endurance the workout your doing has recoveries that are way too long. You don't end up taxing your aerobic system but rather your creatine-phosphate and glycolytic/anaerobic capacity.
If you want better cardio you need to do aerobic running, not sprinting. Sprinting utilizes completely different energy systems than does anything requiring endurance. If you want endurance you need a steady diet of light aerobic running (easy effort, 70-75% of max HR if you pay attention to that), higher end aerobic running ("comfortably hard" effort, usually 85-90% of max HR), and your intense aerobic intervals (5x1k @ 3K race pace w/ recovery time same as running time, 5-8x1k @ 5K pace w/2:00 recovery, 6xmile @ 10K pace w/1:00 recovery).
That's what gets you strong endurance and good aerobic capacity.
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If you wanna be relatively fast and dont have the time to log insane miles just do it like the decathletes. 2-3 times running a weak, 1-2 times a week hard intervals in range from 300-1000 and the rest of your runs as an easy jog.
With this you will be faster and have better shape than any recreational runner doing 80 miles per week in super slow pace. Trust me, i know such people.
With the rest, l_master was right. 200m is maybe a little bit too short of this is your only sorce of running. BUT you can do it with 45 seconds rest. This will slow you down a little bit and make it some good workout to get in shape. 
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On May 17 2012 04:49 Occultus wrote:If you wanna be relatively fast and dont have the time to log insane miles just do it like the decathletes. 2-3 times running a weak, 1-2 times a week hard intervals in range from 300-1000 and the rest of your runs as an easy jog. With this you will be faster and have better shape than any recreational runner doing 80 miles per week in super slow pace. Trust me, i know such people. With the rest, l_master was right. 200m is maybe a little bit too short of this is your only sorce of running. BUT you can do it with 45 seconds rest. This will slow you down a little bit and make it some good workout to get in shape.
I have had a good amount of success at the 5kish distance with low mileage. I would run around 30 miles a week and cross train the equivalent of about 10 miles more a week. I focused on having one quality long run at a brisk pace and one or two quality workouts (interval, speedish, or tempo) each week.
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On May 17 2012 04:49 Occultus wrote:If you wanna be relatively fast and dont have the time to log insane miles just do it like the decathletes. 2-3 times running a weak, 1-2 times a week hard intervals in range from 300-1000 and the rest of your runs as an easy jog. With this you will be faster and have better shape than any recreational runner doing 80 miles per week in super slow pace. Trust me, i know such people. With the rest, l_master was right. 200m is maybe a little bit too short of this is your only sorce of running. BUT you can do it with 45 seconds rest. This will slow you down a little bit and make it some good workout to get in shape.
Yea, you just have to look at what your trying to do with your intervals. Intervals with long rest tend to be the least aerobic, because you can go hard (but usually only a short while) but you rely mostly on anerobic power and don't go long enough to spend lots of time at VO2 max.
Basically once you hit about 3K-5K pace your maxed out aerobically. There is no real extra aerobic stress to going faster, your HR is maxed, breathing is high, and your working at maximum oxygen uptake and delivery. So intervals faster than this, while they can have aerobic component, are necessarily slower and w/longer recovery so you spend less total time working at that maxed out aerobic level (workouts a 400-1500m aren't useless though, they just target different aspects needed to run fast).
It takes about 30-90s to even get up to maximal aerobic level so in your 8x30s intervals if you do hit this it's in the last couple seconds of your interval and maybe your still at that level for 10-20s after the interval. Your recovery is long enough that your fully recovered by the start of the next one. So in this workout your spending at best 20-30s at VO2 (max oxygen uptake) each interval for a total time of 2-4 minutes at VO2.
Contrast this to something like 8x1k at 5K race pace. That might be 3-4 min workbouts w/2 min recovery. So first repeat you spend maybe 2-3 min at VO2, then because the recovery time is shorter relative to the interval time there isn't complete recovery and you go into the next repeat already at elevated oxygen consumption, meaning the next workbout you might spend 2.25-3.25 min at VO2. So in a workout like this you end up spending like 20-30+ minutes at VO2; over 10x as much as in the workout you did.
than any recreational runner doing 80 miles per week in super slow pace.
I'd be pretty amused if I actually found someone that did this. But the premise is right, you need the mileage if you want to be really good, but mileage alone (especially plodding mileage alone) won't make you fast. If your new though you will still improve quite a bit from just easy running. Eventually you do start to need faster stuff though.
On May 17 2012 05:27 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 04:49 Occultus wrote:If you wanna be relatively fast and dont have the time to log insane miles just do it like the decathletes. 2-3 times running a weak, 1-2 times a week hard intervals in range from 300-1000 and the rest of your runs as an easy jog. With this you will be faster and have better shape than any recreational runner doing 80 miles per week in super slow pace. Trust me, i know such people. With the rest, l_master was right. 200m is maybe a little bit too short of this is your only sorce of running. BUT you can do it with 45 seconds rest. This will slow you down a little bit and make it some good workout to get in shape. I have had a good amount of success at the 5kish distance with low mileage. I would run around 30 miles a week and cross train the equivalent of about 10 miles more a week. I focused on having one quality long run at a brisk pace and one or two quality workouts (interval, speedish, or tempo) each week.
I'd certainly say so. 16:38 (i think?) is nothing to scoff at.
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Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 05:27 AirbladeOrange wrote:On May 17 2012 04:49 Occultus wrote:If you wanna be relatively fast and dont have the time to log insane miles just do it like the decathletes. 2-3 times running a weak, 1-2 times a week hard intervals in range from 300-1000 and the rest of your runs as an easy jog. With this you will be faster and have better shape than any recreational runner doing 80 miles per week in super slow pace. Trust me, i know such people. With the rest, l_master was right. 200m is maybe a little bit too short of this is your only sorce of running. BUT you can do it with 45 seconds rest. This will slow you down a little bit and make it some good workout to get in shape. I have had a good amount of success at the 5kish distance with low mileage. I would run around 30 miles a week and cross train the equivalent of about 10 miles more a week. I focused on having one quality long run at a brisk pace and one or two quality workouts (interval, speedish, or tempo) each week. I'd certainly say so. 16:38 (i think?) is nothing to scoff at.
Thanks but I ran 16:38 before I got a stress fracture. Two years later was when I was doing much lower mileage with more cross training so my shins wouldn't break. I think I got under 16:50 with that training.
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I am running a marathon in just over a week and I was wondering what clothing I should be wearing? I hear, "water wicking materials" I was wondering where I can get these?
I do not want to go to the running store because the stuff there is really expensive. Where should I go and what should I be looking for? I already have socks from the running store because he told me I can not wear cotton while running.
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On May 18 2012 22:52 shtdisturbance wrote:
I am running a marathon in just over a week and I was wondering what clothing I should be wearing? I hear, "water wicking materials" I was wondering where I can get these?
I do not want to go to the running store because the stuff there is really expensive. Where should I go and what should I be looking for? I already have socks from the running store because he told me I can not wear cotton while running.
First off, be ready for any type of weather that could happen. Bring more clothes than you need.
Run whatever you're most comfortable in. Whatever you have been wearing for your longer runs should will work if it feels comfortable. You have been running, right?
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On May 18 2012 23:10 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 22:52 shtdisturbance wrote:
I am running a marathon in just over a week and I was wondering what clothing I should be wearing? I hear, "water wicking materials" I was wondering where I can get these?
I do not want to go to the running store because the stuff there is really expensive. Where should I go and what should I be looking for? I already have socks from the running store because he told me I can not wear cotton while running.
First off, be ready for any type of weather that could happen. Bring more clothes than you need. Run whatever you're most comfortable in. Whatever you have been wearing for your longer runs should will work if it feels comfortable. You have been running, right?
I have been wearing whatever shorts or shirt I see first when running nothing really specific which is why I was wondering if I should have or buy some specific running cloths. I have this rebok 100% polyester shirt that I am about to try for a run now but is poly a bad material?
I have not been running what I should be, no. I have been getting weird recurring minor shin splints but I don't want to back out now.
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On May 18 2012 23:10 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 22:52 shtdisturbance wrote:
I am running a marathon in just over a week and I was wondering what clothing I should be wearing? I hear, "water wicking materials" I was wondering where I can get these?
I do not want to go to the running store because the stuff there is really expensive. Where should I go and what should I be looking for? I already have socks from the running store because he told me I can not wear cotton while running.
First off, be ready for any type of weather that could happen. Bring more clothes than you need. Run whatever you're most comfortable in. Whatever you have been wearing for your longer runs should will work if it feels comfortable. You have been running, right?
This.
And yes, polyester is generally better than cotton but really it's all about whatever feels best. If certain clothing has been working fine for your longer runs in conditions similar to what you'll be seeing on race day you'll be ready to rock!
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OXY TRACK MEET HOLY SHIT WTFBBQ!!!!!
Okay so we had Mo Farah (boss on the track last year and WC 5000m gold medalist and 10000m silver medalist) and Galen Rupp (American running beast who just keeps getting better every year) headlining the 1500m at this meet. Both were stepping down as both are much better in the 5000/10,000. There were many other notable names in the field including Miles Batty (NCAA 1500m champion), Robby Andrews, Alan Webb (American Recordholder in the mile in 3:46), Leo Manzano, etc.
The 1500m itself was a sweet race with Mo and Rupp hanging in and Robby Andrews and Manzano right near them with 400m to go. Coming into the back turn Farah, Rupp, and Andrews take off and ditch Manzano. With 100m to go its Farah and Andrews battling for first with Rupp a couple meters behind. With about 40m to go Rupp seemed to say "fuck this, I'm tired of just losing to [training buddy] Farah and turns it up another notch NEARLY closing the gap to Farah and nipping ahead of Andrews. With another 10m he probably would have beaten Farah as he was moving damn good.
VOD:
Mens 1500m
Really good race for both Farah and Rupp, who both PRed in the 1500m, and Rupp's was pretty significant, at least several seconds. If you had any doubts about whether Rupp can be a medal contender....I think that question has been answered.
Later in the night though things took a turn for the awesome. After about 200m the announcers spot something suprising...Rupp and Farah are in the race, neither with numbers on their leg meaning they are rabbiting. They aren't in the front though and it's quickly realized that they are in the race to pace teammate Dathan Ritzenhein to the Olympic "A" of 13:20. Race goes out right around pace with the primary rabbit leading the pack. Soon though, the rabbit drops out and the pack fragments, leaving Ritz towards the back well behind the lead.
Rupp/Farah get right to work and over the next 6 laps creep Ritz right up to the front with the leaders. A little over 4000m in Rupp drops out, presumably because the work is done and Ritz is back with the leaders. Farah however, is having none of it. He is up there in the front and seems to have done his job well. He pulls Ritz completely into the lead with 400m to go. With about 200m to go it's Farah a couple meters in front of Ritz and Chelanga, and over the next 50m Chelanga moves up onto Farah's shoulder. Immediately Farah's racing instincts kick in and he is having none of that; his eyes focus in and he BLASTS ahead of Chelanga to win in 13:12...resulting in that awkward moment when you realize....the rabbit just beat you!
Adding to the fun was that it was noticed after the fact that neither Galen or Mo were wearing spikes. So essentially Farah, just 45 min removed from a 1500m PR, rabbits his way to victory (2nd fastest time this year) in the 5000m (in flats) and a nifty little 3:34/13:12 double.
VOD:
INSANELY Epic 5000m
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Wow 13:12 in flats after a very quick 1500m. Seems like a nice tempo day for Mo. :D
Oh and i have to make a confession. Going a little bit faster on your easy days is, excuse me, bullsht [for me]. Instead of my usual 8 mile pace on my 50-70 minute easy runs i was going faster and faster and ended up running 7mile pace on ALL of my easy days (for me thats at about 80% heart rate). Add 1 fast workout and 1 race per week and youre done.
I mean it feels really great when youre going like that and there is no lactic acid giving you pain but really, i did only my warmup on a pace which is 70% heart rate for me. Maybe 1 recovery jog here and there BUT atleast 70% of my training was at 80% heart rate and above including races which are at nearly maximum.
my right leg is completely messed up now. Side of my calf hurts, quads hurt, even my butt hurts. Im slightly limping and even slow running exhausts me very quickly because im feeling so stiff and its hard to maintain an upright and proper form.
I learned my lesson and will switch back to an 8 mile plus pace, even tho it feels horribly slow. My orthodics cant be that bad. I should be able to handle a 35 mile week...
What do you think? I am that fragile or is it just wrong training and should it change with more volume and slower paces?
//I am using heart rates despite disliking them to visualize intensity. This data may not be 100% correct and trustworthy but they give an overview.
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On May 20 2012 03:24 Occultus wrote:
Wow 13:12 in flats after a very quick 1500m. Seems like a nice tempo day for Mo. :D
Oh and i have to make a confession. Going a little bit faster on your easy days is, excuse me, bullsht [for me]. Instead of my usual 8 mile pace on my 50-70 minute easy runs i was going faster and faster and ended up running 7mile pace on ALL of my easy days (for me thats at about 80% heart rate). Add 1 fast workout and 1 race per week and youre done.
I mean it feels really great when youre going like that and there is no lactic acid giving you pain but really, i did only my warmup on a pace which is 70% heart rate for me. Maybe 1 recovery jog here and there BUT atleast 70% of my training was at 80% heart rate and above including races which are at nearly maximum.
my right leg is completely messed up now. Side of my calf hurts, quads hurt, even my butt hurts. Im slightly limping and even slow running exhausts me very quickly because im feeling so stiff and its hard to maintain an upright and proper form.
I learned my lesson and will switch back to an 8 mile plus pace, even tho it feels horribly slow. My orthodics cant be that bad. I should be able to handle a 35 mile week...
What do you think? I am that fragile or is it just wrong training and should it change with more volume and slower paces?
//I am using heart rates despite disliking them to visualize intensity. This data may not be 100% correct and trustworthy but they give an overview.
Yea, 7:00 pace all the time for a 17:50 guy is a little bit aggressive. If you look at most of the online pace recommendations you get things like VDOT/Daniels giving 7:45 pace, and McMillan giving a range of like 7:10-7:40 (I personally find the middle to back end of McMillan to work for me, if I am near the front end I am usually pushing what I would call easy). 7:00 pace for the majority of your easy running is usually reserved for with a "16" at the front of their 5K PR.
I guess the bottom line is other than it being nice to feel fast on all your runs their is very, very marginal training benefit to be gained running 7:00 pace vs 7:30 or even 7:50 pace. Easy days are usually meant for recovery/blood flow or light aerobic stimulation and the advantage of going a little faster than easy but not being around upper aerobic limit (roughly MP) is generally minimal. The obvious downside is that it can become tough to recover, both in the physical sense of tissue/joint/ligament strain and the physiologic sense of enzyme levels, H+ concentration, etc.
I am not sure you need to do the majority of your easy runs at 8:00+, but they should be easy and I'd argue for very easy when your in the middle of your season putting in the more intense aerobic intervals and anaerobic speedwork. I really like the metaphor to think of your easy runs as "storing up" oxygen for the next days runs. It doesn't have to feel molasses slow, but you should have this feeling that it is light enough that you are storing up energy.
What do you think? I am that fragile or is it just wrong training and should it change with more volume and slower paces?
I'm not sure I'd chalk it up to frailty yet. If I remember correctly both of us have been running for only a year or so now seriously. Tons and tons of development remains. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, you just talked about doing alot of runs at a faster than easy pace clip...sometimes you get away with this in base training but when your doing a bunch of hard workouts it often comes back home to bite. Basically I think most people are "frail" if they don't give themselves a chance to recover, or do too much too soon.
I know I've been doing great injury wise with decent mileage (65-75 wk/avg). Back before I started seriously I had run on and off a few times but would always get injured within a few months. I am not going strong at a little over a year with no injuries, and I think 2 or 3 days total where I have even had any sort of discomfort (that isn't soreness). For me the keys have been:
- Orthotics - I overpronate a little and getting proper arch supports definitely helps keep me from stressing the medial malleolus and the posterior tibial tendon.
- Preventative Maintenence - I seem to be prone to achilles tendonitis so I generally stretch the area regularly and have found Eccentric Calf Drops to be insanely helpful. The takeaway here is if you have common injuries...see what you can do from a rehab standpoint to prevent them
- Soft Surfaces - I run probably 80% of my mileage on dirt/grass/trails, and I really think this helps alot. 70mpw on concrete would be brutal.
- Listening to Body - I work alot on running by feel and interpreting those feelings of effort to what I should be doing. I probably have like 8+ different variations of "easy pace" that I can use to describe how I am feeling. Basically the key here is I am always dialed in to how I feel to make sure I am running at an effort I want to be running. I also try to listen to overall day-to-day patterns, and if I feel particularly tired I almost always go very light easy. If I get out there and feel great and didn't just have, or have upcoming, a workout I am happy to push the pace sometimes working down to MP and finishing even faster the last minute or two (without straining). For me, spontaneous training based off how I feel during the run seems to be very effective.
- Rest/Diet - Good diet is important, though I can often get away with being a little sloppy. Sleep on the other hand...no chance. If I don't get decent (8+ hrs) sleep for a couple days in a row or more I start feeling bad on runs pretty soon.
EDIT: I should have pointed this out more when I noticed it but this was a bit of a red flag for me:
March went supercool at all. Did a one week training camp with 120km, was able to fasten the pace on my easy runs (its about 4:45/km now) and did some nice workouts.
This makes it sound to me like to was an intentional thing and I don't think there is ever a reason to consciously try and increase the pace of your easy runs. Easy runs are not pace runs, they are easy runs, and easy is a feel; not a pace.
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Today's workout was really good for me. Came at a good time to, as I had been feeling pretty flat the last few weeks, probably due to shitty sleep and mediocre quality calorie restricted diet.
7x800m in (2:58, 2:56, 2:55, 2:53, 2:51, 2:49, 2:46) w/1:45-1:50 jog recovery between them. First one was effortless, almost felt like tempoing. 5th one I started to work a little, and last one was definitely working but not dying. I started out pretty conservative since I didn't know exactly where my fitness would be but apparently it's there.
I think I could do this workout at around 2:45-2:50 pace off 1:30-2:00 recovery so that will probably be what I shoot for next time I do this one. I definitely feel like I have the strength and general aerobic fitness, now I just need to get the speed and intense aerobic/anaerobic stuff up to par and get ready for some summer racin!
Probable 10k the Monday after this (probably will, but entry fee is $57), then probably a 5k sometime mid-June, then 4th of July 4 Miler, then Classic 10k will be my "goal" race on 21st July. Good chance I'l race one more time in July, but we'll see how that fits into the schedule.
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Ran my first half marathon today, unfortunately with minimal training. Finished 2:03 which I'm quite happy about. I also have crazy chaffing in the armpit/tricep area. What to do about it?
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On May 28 2012 02:31 kaisr wrote:
Ran my first half marathon today, unfortunately with minimal training. Finished 2:03 which I'm quite happy about. I also have crazy chaffing in the armpit/tricep area. What to do about it?
Congrats on the half marathon :D
Are your arms rubbing against your body too much I take it? Maybe angle out your elbows just a tad.
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On May 28 2012 04:11 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 02:31 kaisr wrote:
Ran my first half marathon today, unfortunately with minimal training. Finished 2:03 which I'm quite happy about. I also have crazy chaffing in the armpit/tricep area. What to do about it? Congrats on the half marathon :D Are your arms rubbing against your body too much I take it? Maybe angle out your elbows just a tad.
Probably just not used to running for that long and getting a little chafing from rubbing.
As far as dealing with it there are three things I like:
1)Vasoline/Lotion/Body Glide - Put a good amount if that type of stuff on and the friction is drastically reduced.
2)Gear Change - Sometimes certain shirts/fabric rub worse than others, so you can try different shirts and/or shirtless
3)Duct Tape - Slap a little duct tape over the offending area and....BAM. No more friction = no more chafing. Duct type is my number one go to solution for blisters and chafing unless it's extremely large scale.
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I ran my first marathon yesterday and it was some sort of crazy experience.
I decided to run a marathon 2 months before it started. I knew the training should be at least 4 months but at that point all the other races were full and I felt like I needed something to motivate me to get off my ass. I started my training with 8 weeks to go, starting with a light 5km run. I felt fine so I stepped it up to 8 km. I still felt fine so I ran a 10km. This was all within a week. I thought I felt fine so I could continue running but from this first week I got minor shin splints.
After I got shin splints my training was horrible. I could only run rarely and never for great distance. In total training I ran about 5 5km runs, 4 10km runs, and one 14km run.
The marathon was now a few days ahead and the most I had ever run in my life was 14km.
The run started great I felt good. At 10km I was at 55min and still feeling great. Then 21.1km hit at 1h 56m and I was still feeling ok. I then got to 24 km and my legs would just not work any more. From 24km on I would have to walk half run one until I got to 30km.
After 30 km it was a whole different experience every km was like running another 21km it felt like an eternity. The pain was crazy!
I eventually got to the finish line in what felt like forever and could barely walk.
The time of finish was 4:45.
Today I still have to waddle around in a lot of pain. I would recommend listening to all the runners who say to have a 4month plan and however easy it feels follow it and stretch to avoid over training.
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is it wierd that I love to run only during the winter and I cant force myself to do so in summer ?
I think that I do only 70% of my best while working out.
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EPT
