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On August 26 2013 05:39 ostekongen wrote:
Hey guys. I'm looking for a bit of advise from some experienced runners. I started running regularly about a year ago, and now im really starting to get into it. I want to see how low i can get my 5km time. Last friday i set a new PR at 18:53. But I wonder what it takes to get it further. I feal like I might have to make my training more regular, Ideally I'd like to be able to run every day, but by now my legs definately can't deal with that amount of training.
Thanks in advance =)
L_Master gives pretty sound advice. The single biggest key to improving your running speed is general aerobic conditioning, and this comes from putting in miles. Building up your mileage is a delicate and long-term task.
On August 26 2013 05:39 ostekongen wrote:
I see some of you post some impressive times for 5 and 10 km. How much do you run and how? Is it better to maybe run for instance 500 meters really fast then walk a bit to get more speed into the legs, or should I just run at a steady pace?
Thanks in advance =)
My biggest week this summer was about 185km, and I was hitting 155-170km consistently for about two months. Of that, about 60-70 per cent would be easy miles, running as fast I feel I can go without working hard. The remainder is either tempo runs, which are running faster and generally for shorter distances, and intervals, which are the kind of running you describe above. Both of these are generally referred to as "speed work." There are many kinds of speed work, and they should be tailored to your specific race.
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On August 25 2013 15:38 L_Master wrote:I would be curious on the splits if you have those, but sometimes thing's just don't go as planned, even if you are feeling good. The workouts sounded good, especially if the tempo's were run controlled and smooth. If you were having to work on those to get those times, then perhaps the 32:30 was a little ambitious. The only thing I saw was that most of your workouts had very long recovery times. I'd have personally liked to see more stuff with 1-3 min rest, as it is more race specific...but there are different ways to attack the goal. Either way, its a massive PR, and from what you say it sounds like your fitness is likely better than the time you posted. You definitely didn't let anyone down. Dude there is SO much money in your local races. Seriously, Colorado is known as a running place, and it's rare for races to have 100, even 50 in prize money. One of the largest races, that often attracts guys with 28:xx or 29:xx track PRs offers a first prize of like 200 or 300. http://www.ccrtiming.com/events-results/2012-results/classic-10k.htm#ovr malesI guess the conclusion is that C-Springs is not the place to be if you want prize money and race wins. Compete for scraps against guys that are 14:xx or even 13:xx runners on occassion. However, it's nice for seeing badass runners. I think I've run into Shalane, Kara, Jenny S (actually ran with her on two occassions), Emma Coburn, Tegenkamp, Lomong, Jager, and Webb. That part is cool 
Yeah, C-Springs sounds like a bitch to run races in, though I imagine seeing Jager or whoever when you're out running is kind of inspiring. When and how did you run with Simpson?
Thanks for your kind words about the race. A bit of reflection and time has really helped my perspective, though I'm still slightly torn up about it. This makes no sense at all, since my goal time was wholly arbitrary, and it was still a pretty solid PR, but feelings are seldom rational.
Anyway, I've decided to get at least a few more races in before the snow comes. My next one is the previously mentioned 10k in early September with the $300 prize pool. I'm planning on (A) running to have fun, first and foremost, and (B) sitting 10m behind whoever goes out in front, if I can match his strength, and then kicking for all I'm worth with 400m to go. Should be entertaining, no matter what happens.
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How quick is your closing speed?
That strategy was always too risky for me. If there was anyone I was trying to beat I would always try to get far enough in front of them so that they wouldn't have the guts to try to run me down by the last stretch. Like I'd kick early and slower because I don't trust my top end speed. The further the distance the earlier I'd try to kick. So during a 10k I'd try to really pick it up with all I had with around 800m to go so I was completely spent and running on fumes and heart during the last 200 daring them to have bigger balls than me and run me down.
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When and how did you run with Simpson?
She actually was living in Monument before returning to Wetmore, and did a ton of her runs on the Santa Fe Trail where I run 95% of the time. First time I got passed...on a 10k pace repeat...and was like damn this girl is moving FAST. Caught up to her a little while later when she was stopping from finishing her run doing some cooldown and was like "HOLY SHIT GOLD MEDALIST WTF!!!!" and had to confirm, chatted briefly, and she invited me to run the last couple miles of her cool down with her since we were headed to the same place.
Second time was a week later, just both out doing easy runs and basically I was starting right as she came by and joined her.
Great gal.
That strategy was always too risky for me. If there was anyone I was trying to beat I would always try to get far enough in front of them so that they wouldn't have the guts to try to run me down by the last stretch. Like I'd kick early and slower because I don't trust my top end speed.
Didn't you have like 59s speed? That's not horrific, then again racing against 16:xx HSers is probably quite a bit different than racing against 35 year old high 17/low 18 guys.
he further the distance the earlier I'd try to kick. So during a 10k I'd try to really pick it up with all I had with around 800m to go so I was completely spent and running on fumes and heart during the last 200 daring them to have bigger balls than me and run me down.
Truth be told, that doesn't really work. 800m is nowhere near far enough to get strength > speed advantage. If you were winning off that strategy you were just a good deal more fit. The problem is that 800m is still deep in speed territory, if you have similar 10000 fitness, and the guy is way faster, he will have a much better 800 also. Not to mention the fact that by being the one driving hard from out, he just gets to camp behind you and blow by you on the bend, where he is more rested from having you do all the work.
To win with strength you really either have to run hard from gun to tape, or do a very aggressive surge starting around or a little before halfway (10000m). This is why you don't see any runners trying that tactic against Farah. Most of them are happy to just get a medal since the financial benefits are so great, and aren't going to take the risk of a massive blow-up with a risky strategy.
I will say though in road racing it is something of a different ballgame, as people can't just sit on you as easily, and uneven terrain makes for different advantages that you can play to your strengths. For instance, if you know there is a big hill 1000m for the finish, and hills are your forte, you can begin an aggressive strike there to gap the field.
if I can match his strength, and then kicking for all I'm worth with 400m to go. Should be entertaining, no matter what happens.
The danger here is that you don't know the other guys speed. If he is faster than you then you'll just get your doors blown off. Especially if he is confident as a kicker, he will potentially be happy to run a little back off his best, and then just pummel you.
I know you have mentioned your fastest 400s being like 68 or something in workouts, but obviously you can run much faster than that. The question is how fast? If you can run 55 or under, likely you can go for a kicking strategy, 55-60 speed is getting iffy, and 60+ no chance. Same thing, you ought to be looking at sub 2 for 800 to seriously consider kicking...unless of course you know the ability of the other guys as kickers.
What I said above also applies. If you know what terrain you are good at, and there is some of that near to the finish, you can use that to create some separation as part of a big move.
If you do opt to play sit and kick...make SURE you practice kicking while tired. Run a couple sessions of things like 10x1k @ 10k, or 5-6 x 1k @ 5k, and kick for all its worth on the last lap. Rest briefly, then all out 400 again. Running fast tired is a little different than running fast fresh, and if you aren't used to it...you won't know how to access it. These kicks at workouts for final 400's you should be able to get with 1-3s of your 400m ability...if you aren't there is work to do.
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Yeah, I know my strategy would not be ideal against more experienced and intelligent runners like the pros. It was just a way to compensate for my speed which was generally not up to par with my peers. And it would help me run an overall faster time with that mindset. I would always think of it as "I dare you to try to run with me this fast before the finish line is in sight." It was more during cross country when 400 splits don't matter with the terrain like you mentioned with road races.
Your point made me smile. Maybe you watch the pros too much. Many of the people I raced against didn't have a clue what they were doing. It's easy for amateurs kick when the finish line is 100m away and clearly in sight.
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I don't have a great sense of my raw 400 speed. The fastest I've clocked this year is a 66, but that was the final rep of a 16x400 session w/200m recovery.
I won't have any sense of the field's speed in relationship to mine, so it's entirely possible the plan will blow up in my face. It's also possible I won't be able to hang near the leaders and whole thing will be a moot point. But I still like the plan for no other reason than it will keep things interesting.
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I've just finished my first 2.5 miles run, and I have to thank you guys. Last summer, I decided to start from scratch (I was always awful at PE). I was overweight (29 BMI) and had big problems running half a mile. I quit running after 1 month or so, when the weather got bad. In december, I decided my life is not going the way I wanted it to go, and started putting some order into it. I managed to organize my schedule better, got better results in college and changed my diet. As a result, I lost 18 kilos (around 35-40 pounds I guess) and started running again in June. I hit the wall several times, but I got some great advice from this subforum and soldiered on. Being slim and running with ease has made me extremely happy and cheerful, and I hope to keep going like this for the rest of my life ( I'm 21 btw). So, I'd like to say a big Thank You to everyone that ever offered advice to anyone on this forum or a similar one, and hopefully we'll meet one day at a marathon!
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OKAY SO I HAVE A WORRYING FUCKING INJURY, Also first hey again glad to see long time posters like airblade and L_master are still here i forget the quality of the teamliquid community.
Okay so my injury, i dont know whether this is a running specific injury but i think thats where its come from, okay so every now and then my knee will just pop out....it happens when bend it full and put any pressure on it like, think i kneel down to do my shoe laces and i feel my knee click the fuck out.....i realised i could push it back in by fully straightening my leg through the pain til it reclicked and then it just felt tender in sore but when it pops out im in true true fucking agony like i cant stand up and have to shove it immediately because its so awful, like this first happened a few months back, i dont know exactly what it is but after it happens my knee feels dodgy for a couple weeks after, it has happened like 4 times in 2 months...i havent had any problems when running with this but it is kind of deeply concerning because my grandad had serious knee problems in his career as a professional football player and my dad also has really dodgy knees.
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On August 30 2013 05:34 matthewfoulkes wrote:
OKAY SO I HAVE A WORRYING FUCKING INJURY, Also first hey again glad to see long time posters like airblade and L_master are still here i forget the quality of the teamliquid community.
Okay so my injury, i dont know whether this is a running specific injury but i think thats where its come from, okay so every now and then my knee will just pop out....it happens when bend it full and put any pressure on it like, think i kneel down to do my shoe laces and i feel my knee click the fuck out.....i realised i could push it back in by fully straightening my leg through the pain til it reclicked and then it just felt tender in sore but when it pops out im in true true fucking agony like i cant stand up and have to shove it immediately because its so awful, like this first happened a few months back, i dont know exactly what it is but after it happens my knee feels dodgy for a couple weeks after, it has happened like 4 times in 2 months...i havent had any problems when running with this but it is kind of deeply concerning because my grandad had serious knee problems in his career as a professional football player and my dad also has really dodgy knees.
That sounds bad. I hope you have scheduled a doctor's appointment.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2013 04:25 Kinon wrote:
I've just finished my first 2.5 miles run, and I have to thank you guys. Last summer, I decided to start from scratch (I was always awful at PE). I was overweight (29 BMI) and had big problems running half a mile. I quit running after 1 month or so, when the weather got bad. In december, I decided my life is not going the way I wanted it to go, and started putting some order into it. I managed to organize my schedule better, got better results in college and changed my diet. As a result, I lost 18 kilos (around 35-40 pounds I guess) and started running again in June. I hit the wall several times, but I got some great advice from this subforum and soldiered on. Being slim and running with ease has made me extremely happy and cheerful, and I hope to keep going like this for the rest of my life ( I'm 21 btw). So, I'd like to say a big Thank You to everyone that ever offered advice to anyone on this forum or a similar one, and hopefully we'll meet one day at a marathon!
Sounds great! =)
@ Bonham. Thanks, guess I have some work ahead of me... =) I guess it takes some patience to really improve. I still find it a bit weird though that you're supposed to improve when it doesnt really feel like your system is being challenged :S Is there some easy-explained logic to this or is it advanced physiology?? =) Gl on the 10 K race!!
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On August 30 2013 06:45 ostekongen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2013 04:25 Kinon wrote:
I've just finished my first 2.5 miles run, and I have to thank you guys. Last summer, I decided to start from scratch (I was always awful at PE). I was overweight (29 BMI) and had big problems running half a mile. I quit running after 1 month or so, when the weather got bad. In december, I decided my life is not going the way I wanted it to go, and started putting some order into it. I managed to organize my schedule better, got better results in college and changed my diet. As a result, I lost 18 kilos (around 35-40 pounds I guess) and started running again in June. I hit the wall several times, but I got some great advice from this subforum and soldiered on. Being slim and running with ease has made me extremely happy and cheerful, and I hope to keep going like this for the rest of my life ( I'm 21 btw). So, I'd like to say a big Thank You to everyone that ever offered advice to anyone on this forum or a similar one, and hopefully we'll meet one day at a marathon! Sounds great! =) @ Bonham. Thanks, guess I have some work ahead of me... =) I guess it takes some patience to really improve. I still find it a bit weird though that you're supposed to improve when it doesnt really feel like your system is being challenged :S Is there some easy-explained logic to this or is it advanced physiology?? =) Gl on the 10 K race!!
It is being challenged. Easy runs still put stress on the body. Even if the run doesn't feel difficult, that doesn't mean there isn't stimulus. Go run easy for 60 min and tell me you don't feel at least a little different at the end. Another way of looking at this is that if you went and ran for 8 hours a day, at an easy pace, you would obviously not take long before having a rough go of it. If these easy runs weren't putting any stress on the body at all then you could easily go 8 hours no problem.
That is also part of the purpose of the mileage. At some point, if you just kept running XX miles per week you would keep seeing diminishing returns, as your body becomes adapted and the stress so minimal that no real adaptation occurs. When you increase the mileage you are going to feel a little bit tired, a little more fatigued, etc.
The physiologic concept is that when you go out for a run, even an easy one, you get a hormonal stimulus which results in various adaptations such as increased red blood cell count, thickening and strengthening of the left ventricle, increased lung elasticity, increased mitochondrial density etc.
Additionally, all that running helps make you a more efficient runner, allowing you to use less oxygen to cover a certain pace or distance, which lets you go faster. In other words, there is a mechanical side to it as well that allows for improvements in running economy as well as strengthening of bones, ligaments, and tendons to allow for more running and greater tolerance to more intense running.
Your point made me smile. Maybe you watch the pros too much. Many of the people I raced against didn't have a clue what they were doing. It's easy for amateurs kick when the finish line is 100m away and clearly in sight.
No doubt.
Though at Bonham's level you start to get to the point where guys start to know what they are doing a little better and are more prepared to kick.
I don't have a great sense of my raw 400 speed. The fastest I've clocked this year is a 66, but that was the final rep of a 16x400 session w/200m recovery.
I won't have any sense of the field's speed in relationship to mine, so it's entirely possible the plan will blow up in my face. It's also possible I won't be able to hang near the leaders and whole thing will be a moot point. But I still like the plan for no other reason than it will keep things interesting.
Good that you are keeping it fun.
I know it would be fun for me anyway, but if you get the chance practicing some faster running and kicking off pace pays BIG dividends. I know I went from struggling to break 70 at the end of workouts to being able to run 63-64 just from a few sessions of working on kicking when a little fatigued.
Obviously don't need to go full NOP and start sprint training and bio-mechanic work and everything, but just practicing it really does help.
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Matthew - That sounds really serious. Don't think the new is supposed to that. Popping/clicking isn't uncommon, but a knee clearly out of track and causing large pain is certainly a cause for concern. Get to a doctor ASAP.
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So wednesday I said fuck it and downloaded the Couch to 5k app.
"ran" (lol  ) Day1 yesterday, and though the first 3 intervals were somehow grueling (i'm far from having the weight i want, 20kg from were I was when I thought myself "normal" looking) after a while it wasnt even that bad and i'm quite eager to tomorrows run.
I really want to stick with it, and as pathetic as it may be, having an app that reminds me to do this every other day, plus regulating how much and for how long to run is really a big help.
So yeah, while I cant see myself running for 30 minutes straight even with all my imagination (i've never had any endurance, though i was always pretty quick on the 100m distance), i really want to try to make it work.
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United States24777 Posts
Mattes I basically just went from couch potato to a 30 minute 5k over the past three months, so it definitely can be done barring any unusual health problems!
Unrelated, but I'm still having problems with my leg. A week ago I noticed the front/top of the thigh bothering me, so I rested for two days. Then I did another session and it bothered me part of the time, so I rested it for three days. Today I tried jogging for like just 5 minute and still noticed it felt a bit funny, although not as much as the previous sessions. I have one week now until my 5k so I'm not sure how to schedule myself. Tomorrow I am going to be busy at the US Open so my first chance to run is Sunday.
I have suspended all leg strength training for the time being.
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On August 31 2013 02:44 micronesia wrote:
Mattes I basically just went from couch potato to a 30 minute 5k over the past three months, so it definitely can be done barring any unusual health problems!
Unrelated, but I'm still having problems with my leg. A week ago I noticed the front/top of the thigh bothering me, so I rested for two days. Then I did another session and it bothered me part of the time, so I rested it for three days. Today I tried jogging for like just 5 minute and still noticed it felt a bit funny, although not as much as the previous sessions. I have one week now until my 5k so I'm not sure how to schedule myself. Tomorrow I am going to be busy at the US Open so my first chance to run is Sunday.
I have suspended all leg strength training for the time being.
Wait what?
That was like two months ago. Or is there another US Open for a different sport?
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On August 31 2013 06:29 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 02:44 micronesia wrote:
Mattes I basically just went from couch potato to a 30 minute 5k over the past three months, so it definitely can be done barring any unusual health problems!
Unrelated, but I'm still having problems with my leg. A week ago I noticed the front/top of the thigh bothering me, so I rested for two days. Then I did another session and it bothered me part of the time, so I rested it for three days. Today I tried jogging for like just 5 minute and still noticed it felt a bit funny, although not as much as the previous sessions. I have one week now until my 5k so I'm not sure how to schedule myself. Tomorrow I am going to be busy at the US Open so my first chance to run is Sunday.
I have suspended all leg strength training for the time being. Wait what? That was like two months ago. Or is there another US Open for a different sport?
Tennis i assume?
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United States24777 Posts
Yes I am referring to the tennis US Open which is held in NYC every year.
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On August 31 2013 06:42 micronesia wrote:
Yes I am referring to the tennis US Open which is held in NYC every year.
The event that's going on now is the main tournament at the end of several smaller tournaments throughout the U.S. if I'm not mistaken.
And I'm really jealous about you being there. I really want to go to a major some day.
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On August 31 2013 06:42 micronesia wrote:
Yes I am referring to the tennis US Open which is held in NYC every year.
lol
durrrrrrrrrrrrr
Shoulda known that one.
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On August 31 2013 02:44 micronesia wrote:
Mattes I basically just went from couch potato to a 30 minute 5k over the past three months, so it definitely can be done barring any unusual health problems!.
Thats really encouraging to hear.
Just got done with day2 of the same interval, went pretty good - got a better ratio than on the first day - still think that my breathing is really wrong, are there general tips how to approach that as someone who never really thought about it?
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