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United States24680 Posts
On July 04 2013 05:09 L_Master wrote:Well, if that is the case I would say do one of two things: 1) Don't do "cardio". Go do strength training, or get involved with a sports league, or whatever I am doing other training as well, but I need to improve my running time specifically for a fitness test in the future.
2) Change your mindset. Stop telling yourself you hate it and instead embrace it. This is essentially what I did...as when I started I HATED running. But after a little bit I said "okay, this is dumb". I switched up where I ran and decided I liked running. After I had a few really great runs just in the groove I realized that I REALLY like running. Cognitive restructuring can work, but it's not easy to convince yourself you like something you don't.
Oh, do yourself a favor and get off the treadmill. It really is self-imposed torture, and it constrains you. You can't naturally let your body fluctuate as it wants to pace wise, nor can you start doing things like natural progression runs. I wouldn't use it other than to dodge totally garbage weather. Find some nice trails, or at least a decent road, and just go cruise. It has been the rainiest couple of months in my memory. Also, I combine strength training with running at the gym, so logistically it is convenient. Furthermore, it is easier for me to control my pace on the treadmill. My plan is to start moving away from the treadmill though. Hopefully that will help me appreciate the 'joy' of running more. I am not sure where I will go though. I do have a track at a local high school that I can use when assessing my progress, but I don't think that is where I would go for more 'recreational' running. Most of the roads around here have too many cars for me to really want to run (especially if I want to listen to music). Some places I know of that are good for running aren't nearby.
The other thing you should consider doing now that you are used to running is go hop in a local 5k, and see what you can do. It's quite possible you'll suprise yourself. Well when I get a little better I'll look into it. At least I should be able to jog continuously for 5k now, which I couldn't do when I started.
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Cognitive restructuring can work, but it's not easy to convince yourself you like something you don't.
Yea, this is probably true. I imagine I'm a little jaded in this aspect, as for me it's never been particularly difficult
It has been the rainiest couple of months in my memory. Also, I combine strength training with running at the gym, so logistically it is convenient. Furthermore, it is easier for me to control my pace on the treadmill. My plan is to start moving away from the treadmill though. Hopefully that will help me appreciate the 'joy' of running more. I am not sure where I will go though. I do have a track at a local high school that I can use when assessing my progress, but I don't think that is where I would go for more 'recreational' running. Most of the roads around here have too many cars for me to really want to run (especially if I want to listen to music). Some places I know of that are good for running aren't nearby.
Most of what you have here makes good sense. I will say for roads I'm pretty much 100% comfortable on just about any roads with headphones. I always run against oncoming traffic (i.e. on the left side of the road from my perspective) so I could see if anyone did something stupid, and am prepared to leap out of the way in the event of something really ridiculous. In my case, I will move of the road about 5-10 seconds before the car reaches me, then get back on after. Only time I don't like roads is if they are very curvy/hilly with fast moving traffic, such that a car could come around a bend and leave me little time to react.
As far as the bolded part...that is the one thing I would disagree with. You don't need to be controlling your pace anymore, and if anything that keeps you from realizing improvement. Just go out, run at a non-suicidal clip, and let the chips fall where they will. Some days you might run (in treadmill terms) 5.0, and others days 5.5 might be totally cruising.
Stay of the track as well, unless you are going there to do measured workouts. General aerobic running is best done in an "organic" matter. Just go out and let your body do whatever feels reasonable without hammering every run.
Show nested quote +The other thing you should consider doing now that you are used to running is go hop in a local 5k, and see what you can do. It's quite possible you'll suprise yourself. Well when I get a little better I'll look into it. At least I should be able to jog continuously for 5k now, which I couldn't do when I started.
This is something of a chicken and egg type thing. The racing will help you get faster. As you are now you will likely finish higher than half the field, so if you're concerned about being a straggler and/or last place finish type of stuff...not gonna happen.
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United States24680 Posts
Might be a silly question, but how do I look into what runs/events are in my area? I've never given it any thought before haha
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I'm interested in what you mean by "should not be uncomfortable". If I really just wanted to be comfortable, I could walk 5k and feel fine and have a conversation the entire time. Obviously I have to be pushing myself at least to some extent, right?
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On July 03 2013 23:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:
At what point do you start to "enjoy" running?
I finished C25K and am going on to 10K (and made way more progress than I ever expected!), but I still don't look forward to my runs.
FWIW, I've always liked running, and the more I do the more I enjoy it. I'd be lying if I said I love every run I do, especially these days when I'm at peak volume for the season, but overall the juice is worth the squeeze. The most important thing with exercise is to do an activity you enjoy. If you feel like you've given running a fair shake and still endure it more than revel in it, maybe try something else. There are lots of ways of burning calories.
But, you know, they call it "runner's high" for a reason. Endorphins are pretty great.
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On July 04 2013 05:46 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I'm interested in what you mean by "should not be uncomfortable". If I really just wanted to be comfortable, I could walk 5k and feel fine and have a conversation the entire time. Obviously I have to be pushing myself at least to some extent, right?
Yea, I guess walking would definitely fall under the category of comfortable. xD
Basically most runs, nearly all runs if you are new, should be "easy". I guess their are two ways to define easy. One is find a moderate pace, one that isn't what you would call easy, but also one that wouldn't start to hurt/burn/heavy legs/etc. if you were going several miles or more at that pace, then back down from there until it doesn't feel difficult and you are reaching a point where you could feel like you wouldn't be stressed at all aerobically running that pace for several hours and could be conversational.
The second way is to start off at a pace that feels like you are being lazy, almost like you are not trying, and subtly go faster from their until it feels "easy", but not so easy it feels like you aren't getting any sort of a workout.
If you really don't have any idea what easy is coming from the side of "what is too easy?" (most new runners have a problem with running too hard) then there are some other measure you can use to give you an idea:
1)Heart Rate - A good easy run pace should be around 60-75% of max HR. 60% being a very, relaxed pace almost to the point where you feel you are being lazy, and 70-75% being a pace where you cruising.
2)Breathing Rhythm - Easy pace tends to correlate with a 3-3 breathing rhythm (i.e. one breath for every 3 steps)
3)Conversation - It should be possible to say two or three sentences with gasping and spluttering for air at the end, but you shouldn't be able to sing a phrase or something.
4**)Run a race. Just to the track and rip out a mile as faster as you can (this should NOT feel good, especially after 1-2 laps). Add about 2:30 min/mile to your mile pace and you'll have a good easy pace. For a 5k add about 1:30-2:00 min/mile.
** Best way imo
Those above are all just guides though, to give you some centering on what "easy" is when you are totally new. None of these are truisms though, as ultimately easy is...what feels easy. Your body knows if something is easy the same as it knows if you are hungry or tired or thirsty. Generally if you are asking yourself "is this easy" the answer is probably no.
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United States24680 Posts
I'm thinking about your #4. I ran a mile in 10:15 (as I explained earlier in the thread, it was kinda hot though and it was a couple of weeks back so it may not truly be my current state; I'll round it to 10 minutes). Adding 2.5 minutes gives 12:30. This corresponds to a speed of 4.8 mph which is a bit too slow for me to jog (I like to jog at at least 5 mph).
Adding 1:45 min/mile gives a time of 11:45 which corresponds to a speed of about 5.1 mph. This is roughly the speed I'm doing it at (was doing 5, now doing 5.2) and I feel quite exhausted for most of it (those first 2-3 minutes are dynamite though).
I just don't get how you can run comfortably when you are starting. When my maximum pace for a 5k is 7.5 mph then 6 mph will feel great. For new runners however, the only pace where you aren't quickly feeling exhausted is one so slow that you can't even jog properly (for me, sub 5mph).
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On July 04 2013 05:37 micronesia wrote:
Might be a silly question, but how do I look into what runs/events are in my area? I've never given it any thought before haha
http://beta.active.com/
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United States24680 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:44 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:37 micronesia wrote:
Might be a silly question, but how do I look into what runs/events are in my area? I've never given it any thought before haha http://beta.active.com/
I don't know how good the reputation for that website is, but I cannot find any relevant races near me. I found some stuff that's too far away to be worth going to, and one race that's apparently meant for moms. Also there is some stuff in like 5 months.
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This week I started running regularly after 2 months of very little exercise. Prior to that was my first season of track (as a junior in HS). The training consisted of 3 long runs per week (usually 45-65 minutes) and 2 track workouts per week (2-3 miles of repeats) and I was able to improve my mile PR to 5:14.
Anyway, now that I'm on my own, I've decided to train in a different way: by doing a combination of fast runs (shorter than 3 miles) and track workouts consisting of less than 2 miles of repeats. As long as I'm not injured, I'll try to run 8-9 times per week. I'm not sure whether I'll have as much success with this strategy, but it will definitely be much more enjoyable. I really don't like going on hour long runs at a slow pace, partly because they're boring IMO, and partly because they're so exhausting.
I'm not training for anything in the immediate future, however I might do a couple of 5Ks this fall, and I'll try to break my mile PR after I've trained for a while. Anyway, I'll keep you guys posted on my progress. It will be interesting to see how much I can improve while only running 15-20 miles per week. By the way, I've trained in a similar way before (although with fewer runs per week than I expect to do,) and it didn't cause any major injuries. In contrast, I had a lot of trouble with my leg during the last few weeks of track.
Here's my log:
http://www.runningahead.com/logs/4977037d6a674b3996cc9338428cb969
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On July 04 2013 16:00 airtown wrote:This week I started running regularly after 2 months of very little exercise. Prior to that was my first season of track (as a junior in HS). The training consisted of 3 long runs per week (usually 45-65 minutes) and 2 track workouts per week (2-3 miles of repeats) and I was able to improve my mile PR to 5:14. Anyway, now that I'm on my own, I've decided to train in a different way: by doing a combination of fast runs (shorter than 3 miles) and track workouts consisting of less than 2 miles of repeats. As long as I'm not injured, I'll try to run 8-9 times per week. I'm not sure whether I'll have as much success with this strategy, but it will definitely be much more enjoyable. I really don't like going on hour long runs at a slow pace, partly because they're boring IMO, and partly because they're so exhausting. I'm not training for anything in the immediate future, however I might do a couple of 5Ks this fall, and I'll try to break my mile PR after I've trained for a while. Anyway, I'll keep you guys posted on my progress. It will be interesting to see how much I can improve while only running 15-20 miles per week. By the way, I've trained in a similar way before (although with fewer runs per week than I expect to do,) and it didn't cause any major injuries. In contrast, I had a lot of trouble with my leg during the last few weeks of track. Here's my log: http://www.runningahead.com/logs/4977037d6a674b3996cc9338428cb969
If you are actually trying to PR then you should reevaluate your training plan and consider logical periodization, weekly mileage, and workouts. I'm not sure if you're more interested in setting a new PR or just trying out your method of running less so I'm not going to get too much into anything.
If you are just set on doing what you already laid out then I hope you enjoy it and do keep us updated.
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On July 04 2013 16:00 airtown wrote:It will be interesting to see how much I can improve while only running 15-20 miles per week. By the way, I've trained in a similar way before (although with fewer runs per week than I expect to do,) and it didn't cause any major injuries. In contrast, I had a lot of trouble with my leg during the last few weeks of track. Here's my log: http://www.runningahead.com/logs/4977037d6a674b3996cc9338428cb969
I would make sure that you are doing enough warmup/cooldown before and after your speed work. My wife did X Country in college and if they were doing 10x1600s or something like that they would usually do 30-45 min warm up and a 30-45 min cooldown. Now if you just want to get ripped and be in overall good shape then 15-20 miles is the perfect target. If you want to make speed gains though I would do some more mileage.
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On July 04 2013 13:30 micronesia wrote:
I'm thinking about your #4. I ran a mile in 10:15 (as I explained earlier in the thread, it was kinda hot though and it was a couple of weeks back so it may not truly be my current state; I'll round it to 10 minutes). Adding 2.5 minutes gives 12:30. This corresponds to a speed of 4.8 mph which is a bit too slow for me to jog (I like to jog at at least 5 mph).
Adding 1:45 min/mile gives a time of 11:45 which corresponds to a speed of about 5.1 mph. This is roughly the speed I'm doing it at (was doing 5, now doing 5.2) and I feel quite exhausted for most of it (those first 2-3 minutes are dynamite though).
I just don't get how you can run comfortably when you are starting. When my maximum pace for a 5k is 7.5 mph then 6 mph will feel great. For new runners however, the only pace where you aren't quickly feeling exhausted is one so slow that you can't even jog properly (for me, sub 5mph).
Two thoughts here:
1) You do say you are running at mile + 1:45, which usually corresponds to roughly marathon pace. This isn't a pace that usually would be considered easy, but it should be "hurting" after 30-60. The difference between 4.8 and 5.2 isn't negligable and it's quite possible you would feel alot better at the slower speed.
2) The runners those pace numbers are recommended for are generally elites and or good rec runners running anywhere between 4-6 minutes for the mile. It works pretty well in those ranges. However, as you get a little slower paces change dramatically for smaller variations in speed (going from an 11 to a 10 minute mile requires going like 0.4 mph faster, going from a 5 to 4 minute mile requires a full 3 mph faster). Using a .7 conversion instead of a flat pace deduction gives about 4.2 mph for an easy pace, however, I don't believe 10:00 is your actual mile fitness. Probably more like 9-9:30 pace is possible, which gives something like 4.3-4.5 being easy.
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United States24680 Posts
I think I'l go to the track at a cool time and try running a mile again, and focus on trying to get the best time I can. Then I can continue these calculations based off of that.
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Well, race went okay today all things considered.
Ran 26:11 for 4 miles (4.04 GPS). For basically no running in the last 8 months I'll take it, and it confirms what I thought about just needing to get back to former weight to reach my previous fitness.
I still need to figure out this racing thing though as I ran the last 400 in about 74, and last 200 in 30-31s. The problem here is that I'm able to do that means I'm too fresh. I definitely need to work on that aspect of racing, especially at longer distances. Only in the mile do I feel as if I really attack the race. In longer races I always feel very fresh in the legs, so it's probably just a matter of committing to the fact that this is going to start hurting good from a long way out.
Splits were 6:32 (slight uphill), 6:28, 6:43, 6:28. So basically first two miles were good, and then I probably got lazy/weak in the third mile and the fourth, only saving the last with a hard kick.
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On July 04 2013 16:00 airtown wrote:
Anyway, now that I'm on my own, I've decided to train in a different way: by doing a combination of fast runs (shorter than 3 miles) and track workouts consisting of less than 2 miles of repeats. As long as I'm not injured, I'll try to run 8-9 times per week. I'm not sure whether I'll have as much success with this strategy, but it will definitely be much more enjoyable. I really don't like going on hour long runs at a slow pace, partly because they're boring IMO, and partly because they're so exhausting.
You won't. Or rather you probably will see some success in your first season or two training like this, especially at the shorter distances, and even more so if you have good wheels. If you can run say 52-54 for 400m I could easily see you running something like 2:00 for 800m, 4:40 1600m, and 17:00-18:00 5k after a season or three.
The important note: training like this will ensure you don't have good aerobic development, which results in two things
1) Handicapping Long Term Development - training this way is a terrible way to get good if your interested at all in being the best you can be in 4, 6, or 10 years. The general consensus and evidence is that lots of this training ends up curtailing your ultimate potential.
2) Weakness at longer stuff - Notice the times I outlined for you, as those are very typical for a HS athlete as many don't run too much mileage and attack lots of intervals. It looks good at 800, decent at the mile, and then pretty mediocre at 5k. Put another way, if you intend to race anything much longer than a mile you are really going to struggle. To give some idea, a well trained college athlete with good aerobic development would be running something like 2:00 / 4:20-4:25 / 15:00 / 31:00
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On July 05 2013 00:05 micronesia wrote:
I think I'l go to the track at a cool time and try running a mile again, and focus on trying to get the best time I can. Then I can continue these calculations based off of that.
Yea, the reason why I say 10:00 probably isn't indicative of your fitness is two reasons. The first is that most newer runners have poor pacing. I can't tell you how many people I see that run splits that look like 85, 100, 2:00, 2:20 to run like 7:40 for the mile. Perhaps more importantly, most newer runners aren't good at pushing themselves in races. If you are running a mile correctly it goes something like this
End of lap 1 - this feels pretty intense and quick
End of lap 2 - my legs are heavy and my chest is on fire + "oh my god two more laps to go?!"
End of lap 3 - holy shit this sucks why am I doing this again?
Lap 4 - hopefully now the finish is in sight, maintain till back curve, then on back curve pour everything left into it
If you don't have the beginning of heavy legs and some burning in your chest by the end of lap two...you probably too relaxed getting there. Assuming you get to lap 2 where you want to be, most runners lose it on the third lap in one of two ways. They either ran suicide splits early and die, or they lose focus on the third lap (say a runner is going for sub 5, loss of focus in third lap usually looks like 74, 75, 79, 74).
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United States24680 Posts
Yeah I definitely will need to push myself to get my best time. As for the first reason, I was watching out for that last time I timed myself on the track. I checked my time after each lap; the first three laps were all within a couple of seconds of each other amazingly. The fourth lap I lost like 10-15 seconds, but as I said the heat was probably getting to me.
This is why I said I was trying to use the treadmill to teach me running pace. I didn't mean that it will teach me how to choose what speed to run and when... just that I can make myself run at approximately the speed I want, and maintain that speed. If I did all of my initial training running through he park this would be very difficult for me, most likely.
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Whoop whoop, just back from a very encouraging interval workout. It was buildup workout #1 from This McMillan 10k plan, and it had scared the crap out of me and defeated me twice before. Not today though! Managed all six mile reps between 5:09 and 5:13 with 4mins of active recovery, which apparently puts me right on pace for my 10k goal race on August 24. Feeling encouraged and enthused for the first time in about two weeks. 32:30 seems within reach with some more work.
On July 05 2013 00:15 L_Master wrote:
Well, race went okay today all things considered.
Glad to hear you're still swingin' away. Is the injury totally resolved at this point? How long do you anticipate it will take you to regain your form?
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EPT
