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On July 07 2013 05:33 micronesia wrote:
I don't have a timetable yet, but I'll let you know when/if I do. I realize the answer to my question will vary from person to person and situation to situation, but I was just wondering how big of a jump in performance it is.
Probably not that big. If you had been running 70mpw with workouts for 4 years it would be a different situation.
How tough was that 14:00 for you? Basically how much did it hurt and how were you feeling at different points? I really wouldn't be too surprised if you already could scare sub 13 minutes, given your recent treadmill run as well as doing a half hour tolerably at 5.2 pace. Learning to race takes some time, but you can "improve" significantly just from that.
We'll have to see how you progress, but my very rough guess (and really there is no way to know) is that a good 6-8 month goal for you would be something like sub 7 mile.
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Ah damn, that Komei dude got himself nuked. Wanted to continue that conversation with him a little more. 
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For me at least his novelty wore out very fast.
Edit: It looks like he pissed people off in the general nutrition recommendation thread too. His hatred for eggs and love for argument is what ultimately led to his downfall. And apparently he was a previously banned user anyway who still could return sooner or later with different name.
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On July 07 2013 10:34 AirbladeOrange wrote:
For me at least his novelty wore out very fast.
Edit: It looks like he pissed people off in the general nutrition recommendation thread too. His hatred for eggs and love for argument is what ultimately led to his downfall. And apparently he was a previously banned user anyway who still could return sooner or later with different name.
Yea, in one sense he didn't seem to offer much, in that he didn't back up many of his statements, though he was starting to more in the end. I still can't tell if he understood the relationship between speed and distance running. From his comments about running being almost entirely about oxygen transport I got the impression he believed that you could take a runner capable of only running 75s in 400m, and have them run good times, when in reality they would be lucky to break 5:45 in the mile and mid 19s in the 5k...after many years of training.
It's not so much that he was wrong, just that his understanding if running was overly simplified.
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I tried a couple of different approaches and examples to counter his claims but it just got frustrating so I just ignored him after he still couldn't carry a reasonable discussion then threw a few insults out at people.
He definitely seemed well informed and educated on running and running related science. Which makes some of those over simplified and questionable at best statements all the more baffling, including the oxygen transport thing.
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United States24799 Posts
On July 07 2013 05:44 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 05:33 micronesia wrote:
I don't have a timetable yet, but I'll let you know when/if I do. I realize the answer to my question will vary from person to person and situation to situation, but I was just wondering how big of a jump in performance it is. Probably not that big. If you had been running 70mpw with workouts for 4 years it would be a different situation. How tough was that 14:00 for you? Basically how much did it hurt and how were you feeling at different points? I really wouldn't be too surprised if you already could scare sub 13 minutes, given your recent treadmill run as well as doing a half hour tolerably at 5.2 pace. Learning to race takes some time, but you can "improve" significantly just from that. We'll have to see how you progress, but my very rough guess (and really there is no way to know) is that a good 6-8 month goal for you would be something like sub 7 mile.
I felt pretty beat after the 14 minutes. I was able to do a cooldown, though. I don't think I'm ready for 13 minutes yet.
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What are peoples' opinions on cooldowns? It just seems like one of those myths like the 2 lap warmup or static stretching before running that has little to no scientific research to support it being worthwhile. People say it helps promote recovery but I have only seen research that says there is no evidence it has any effect whatsoever on recovery.
Personally I tend to like cooldowns only if I have had a really good workout or race but otherwise I just don't feel like running any more for the day and would rather spend my time and energy refocusing. They just seem to be junk miles you're putting in after your legs are jello.
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On July 07 2013 14:15 AirbladeOrange wrote:
What are peoples' opinions on cooldowns? It just seems like one of those myths like the 2 lap warmup or static stretching before running that has little to no scientific research to support it being worthwhile. People say it helps promote recovery but I have only seen research that says there is no evidence it has any effect whatsoever on recovery.
Personally I tend to like cooldowns only if I have had a really good workout or race but otherwise I just don't feel like running any more for the day and would rather spend my time and energy refocusing. They just seem to be junk miles you're putting in after your legs are jello.
Not sure what the evidence is from a scientific standpoint. Most athletes find they feel better the next day after a cooldown run, and I know I certainly do.
Only scientific side theory I have heard is that they get extra blood-flow and circulation to bring nutrients and clean out metabolites.
On July 07 2013 13:02 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 05:44 L_Master wrote:On July 07 2013 05:33 micronesia wrote:
I don't have a timetable yet, but I'll let you know when/if I do. I realize the answer to my question will vary from person to person and situation to situation, but I was just wondering how big of a jump in performance it is. Probably not that big. If you had been running 70mpw with workouts for 4 years it would be a different situation. How tough was that 14:00 for you? Basically how much did it hurt and how were you feeling at different points? I really wouldn't be too surprised if you already could scare sub 13 minutes, given your recent treadmill run as well as doing a half hour tolerably at 5.2 pace. Learning to race takes some time, but you can "improve" significantly just from that. We'll have to see how you progress, but my very rough guess (and really there is no way to know) is that a good 6-8 month goal for you would be something like sub 7 mile. I felt pretty beat after the 14 minutes. I was able to do a cooldown, though. I don't think I'm ready for 13 minutes yet.
The feeling I'd be worried about isn't afterwords. It's how you felt at halfway and at three quarters type stuff. 13 might be be a stretch, but at the same time it wouldn't entirely shock me. Just the other day you mentioned how you struggled to do a mile in 10:15, and now a few days later you got through 1.5 in almost the same pace. If you are not used to racing, and how to push hard, you can save ALOT of time from your races.
I've seen lots of newer runners that might run say, 3 miles in 25:30, and then go out and run a mile race in 7:50 when in reality someone running 3 miles in 25:30 is capable of anywhere between 6:10-7:30, depending on just how hard that "standard" run is given that most beginners run way to hard. Bottom line...there is frequently alot of improvement to be made just from learning how to push yourself.
As a different note, that 5.2 pace is now probably somewhere around marathon pace type effort for you.
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United States24799 Posts
Cool, thanks for the thoughts. I start to feel pretty bad towards the middle, and then get a little better when the end is in sight. Here might be my thoughts for a 30 minute run:
Minute: Thought
0-3: I feel great
4-7: Ah, there it is. I'm starting to feel tired
8-12: Wow, I still have a long ways to go and I'm already pretty damn tired
13-16: I'm gonna focus on the music until I'm past halfway, or else I won't make it
17-20: Just gotta make it to two thirds. I still feel quite bad, but not really worse than the 12 minute mark; if it stays like this I should be able to make it.
21-25: Ugh, I need this to end. I hope I make it. WTF am I doing; breathe you moron.
26-30: Just one more song! If I made it this far I can do it! This sucks though. Oh crap that was a short song. Okay, one more song NOW! This song will probably take me halfway through the cooldown so I'm really close.
31: Just gotta jog at 4.5 for a minute, then I can switch to a brisk walk
32: Now that I'm walking, there's no reason why I have to stop, but damn this feels harder than it does normally
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I agree with L_Master and I would even go a bit further. The body has so much more potential and extra power that most people don't learn to utilize. Unless you go exercising with the mindset of staking your life on it, you won't realize your full potential (and you won't improve as fast either).
I remember once when running my usual 3 laps (6km) and on the beginning of the last lap when my legs were like spaghetti and my pulse was definitely at or near max a big tree fell down on my left side. This was in the middle of the night and I thought it was a bear for sure. I sprinted almost that whole lap (probably about double of my usual jogging speed) and with all the adrenaline/fear I didn't even feel exhausted when it was over.
A pretty silly example, but yeah... What (for me) helps to utilize your max is to NOT think actively about what you think you can do or how far you can keep on going, because that way your mind will limit your potential. Just try to be more like an animal and run with instincts.
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Decided that I can't find enough time to train just purely by running, so today I tried commuting to work via bike, was not bad, its a fair distance of 23 km each way with 2 valleys, and I am not using a road bike because who has 1000$ to spend on a bike anyways. Hopefully the combination of commuting to work 2-3 times a week + running on off days will help boost my endurance a bit.
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On July 08 2013 11:09 LagLovah wrote:
Decided that I can't find enough time to train just purely by running, so today I tried commuting to work via bike, was not bad, its a fair distance of 23 km each way with 2 valleys, and I am not using a road bike because who has 1000$ to spend on a bike anyways. Hopefully the combination of commuting to work 2-3 times a week + running on off days will help boost my endurance a bit.
It will. Quite a bit I imagine.
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On July 08 2013 11:09 LagLovah wrote:
Decided that I can't find enough time to train just purely by running, so today I tried commuting to work via bike, was not bad, its a fair distance of 23 km each way with 2 valleys, and I am not using a road bike because who has 1000$ to spend on a bike anyways. Hopefully the combination of commuting to work 2-3 times a week + running on off days will help boost my endurance a bit.
Also started bicycling to work, exact same distance, how long does it usually take you?
I prefer running because i can't seem to get my pulse up with the bike, my legs give way long before max pulse. I can't run with my injury though and so bicycling is the only option to keep conditioning in decent shape. ..
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Takes me around an hour, I try not to push to hard since I work 12 hour days though
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On July 08 2013 21:15 LagLovah wrote:
Takes me around an hour, I try not to push to hard since I work 12 hour days though
Then it's about same for me, I usually do 50 minutes but that's because I'm in a hurry, and I get really weak legs and can barely walk at work for a while. I was just wondering because the tempo seems so different between cyclists... A lot of elites swoosh past me quickly on their special bikes, but others do around half the pace. Google estimates 1 and a half hour for 23km too, it seems a bit much.
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United States24799 Posts
I did another 30 minutes at 5.2 mph, and it felt easier than it had in the past. Definitely, I'm seeing improvement. I might give 5.4 mph a shot next time.
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On July 09 2013 04:10 micronesia wrote:
I did another 30 minutes at 5.2 mph, and it felt easier than it had in the past. Definitely, I'm seeing improvement. I might give 5.4 mph a shot next time.
I wish I could still make that level of progress!
I know it can be a little discouraging when it feels like you are still behind everyone else, but keep at it at and you'll close that gap. I had a friend that when he started he struggled to get through a mile, broken into 4 quarters, at a 13-15 min pace, and now two and a half years later he has a good shot to crack 20min 5k this summer.
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United States24799 Posts
I found a couple of running clubs that have useful websites with events in my area. There is one less than ten minutes away in a couple of weeks. It is a USATF sanctioned 5k. Entry is $20 if you pre-register (25 the day of) and you get a t-shirt as well as refreshments and raffles after the race. The course is flat and controlled by local police. At check-in there is 'packet pickup.' Any idea what that means?
I'm going to try running 2.7 miles in 30 minutes tomorrow. A 5k is 3.1 miles. I'm going to try to get my 30 minute running speed up as much as possible between now and the event, but I don't know if I will be able to complete the course in 30 minutes. Should I enter the event?
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On July 09 2013 09:51 micronesia wrote:
I found a couple of running clubs that have useful websites with events in my area. There is one less than ten minutes away in a couple of weeks. It is a USATF sanctioned 5k. Entry is $20 if you pre-register (25 the day of) and you get a t-shirt as well as refreshments and raffles after the race. The course is flat and controlled by local police. At check-in there is 'packet pickup.' Any idea what that means?
I'm going to try running 2.7 miles in 30 minutes tomorrow. A 5k is 3.1 miles. I'm going to try to get my 30 minute running speed up as much as possible between now and the event, but I don't know if I will be able to complete the course in 30 minutes. Should I enter the event?
No reason not to enter, and it will give you a feeling of the race atmosphere and of competition. Packet pick-up is where you get your bag which has your race t-shirt (don't put this on till AFTER the race), bib number, pins, and chip if it is electronically timed, and sometimes random other coupons and such. USATF sanctioned means that the course is properly wheel measured and will not be short (it will be at least 5m long using ideal tangents).
You can definitely do 5.4 right now. What I might suggest is to do one light progression, a light interval session,and one slightly longer, but easier run. For the progression start at 5.2 and go .3, .4, .5, .6 increasing every half mile and if you are still feeling okay you could go up to say 6.0 to finish out 3 miles if you aren't totally wiped.
For the interval workout, do 5x3min @ 6.2 pace, walking 2 minutes in between. That will give you an idea to remember the feeling of running that speed, as well as how that intensity should feel. The last 60-90s of each of those faster workbouts should feel somewhere between slightly and very uncomfortable. If it doesn't...you can set the speed higher than 6.2.
The longer run could be something like 45 minutes, but at an easier pace, maybe starting high 4's and working your way up to low 5's by the end if you feel good enough.
30 minutes is possibly a bit aggressive as that is 6.2 pace for 5k. I would think you would need to be capable of 8:20/13:15 to go for 30:00, which I know you haven't done but I still think you may be in that sort of shape.
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United States24799 Posts
On July 09 2013 12:07 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 09:51 micronesia wrote:
I found a couple of running clubs that have useful websites with events in my area. There is one less than ten minutes away in a couple of weeks. It is a USATF sanctioned 5k. Entry is $20 if you pre-register (25 the day of) and you get a t-shirt as well as refreshments and raffles after the race. The course is flat and controlled by local police. At check-in there is 'packet pickup.' Any idea what that means?
I'm going to try running 2.7 miles in 30 minutes tomorrow. A 5k is 3.1 miles. I'm going to try to get my 30 minute running speed up as much as possible between now and the event, but I don't know if I will be able to complete the course in 30 minutes. Should I enter the event? No reason not to enter, and it will give you a feeling of the race atmosphere and of competition. Packet pick-up is where you get your bag which has your race t-shirt (don't put this on till AFTER the race), bib number, pins, and chip if it is electronically timed, and sometimes random other coupons and such.
What do you do with this stuff? Go back to your car and put it in? I can't imagine you want to run a 5k carrying a t-shirt, or that you just leave your stuff sitting in a pile near the start line.
I will try out those other runs you suggested.
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EPT
