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This is not a discussion topic on whether you think women should run separate tournaments. This is a thread for the NESL Iron Lady events.
If you would like to sign up or wish them well or offer aid and support, this is the place. If you want to complain about the work they've put in or their message, don't. This is your warning. - Jibba 16:18PM EST / 05:18 KST |
On June 10 2011 13:25 L3g3nd_ wrote:
Ive always wondered, why arent girls as good at gaming as guys? there are girls that play this game to be good, evident by the tournaments, but lets be honest, ive NEVER seen a top pro girl. Toss girl is prob the closest?
And its not like football where physical superiority is a huge factor, sc2 is all about thinking, strategy, and attention to detail. (the latter of which is even a trait that is more prominent in females)
Im not being sexist by any means, just curious
I'm assuming it's because of the small number of women that play. Out of all tens of thousands of SC2 male players, there are only a special few that have the dedication and determination to make it to pro status. Now given Navi's statistic, we know that there is a very very small number of women that play. Thus the chances of a seeing a pro female gamer is low. Also, take a look at the gender stereotypes that are in effect in our society. Women are tacitly encouraged by their families to pursue other activities, rather than gaming. This gender reinforcement begins the day an expecting couple wallpapers the baby's room pink.
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On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group. I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly. And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
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On June 10 2011 14:33 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you. This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group. I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly. And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
You attempted to counter her argument with one of the weakest counter arguments I have seen. Lets pick you apart sentence by sentence:
"This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group."
Except the fact that most males go crazy and immature at the sight of a girl playing sc2. Hence they want to have a group for themselves to avoid that.
" I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. "
This has nothing to do with anyting, and I'm not even sure why you said it. You trying to imply that there is actually a huge base of female players and the facebook group does not show the real numbers? you can't be that clueless..
" You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly."
Right, because gender is an absolute irrelevant minority. That makes no sense. This isn't a cup for people who like to wear sandals <- that is irrelevant minority. In what world is gender irrelevant minority?
"And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out."
We need more gamers period, and the purpose of this is cup is to build a new base of gamers that otherwise find it intimidating or difficult to gain notice or spotlight. FYI, fans of SC2 can be girls too, I know it may come as a shock to you..
"Affirmative action does not belong in esports."
Now you just show your true colors of what type of person you are period with this statement..
Haters gonna Hate though..
tl;dr you are selfish as the 1912109283901 cups and leagues amounting to well over $100k dominated by males is still not enough for you to give some leeway for some other competitions to highlight other people. Sorry you feel this way.
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Do all women have easy access to starcraft in the kitchen?
But seriously, I don't see why there needs to be a female league, there should be no difference in ability between genders...
Or am I completely missing the rule that specifically says only men can compete in MLG, GSL etc.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 10 2011 08:51 pHaRSiDE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 08:44 TheOne85 wrote:
Why is having this necessary?
It's not a physical attribute that keeps female gamers from participating at the higher levels...
I really don't think this is good for the whole of esports.
Playing against/with the best makes you better and that is common consensus between every pro player in every competitive scene. Yes its not good to promote for females to play on a tournament level. You know how rediculous you sound man? Not every player starts off playing against the best, that is intimidating. It begins with casual play, and small scale tournaments. Our function is the stepping stone to bring more females into the scene which will obviously transition over to the open cups. It pains me you find an event promoting the growth of a scene is not good for the whole of esports. Its making you sound pretty selfish. Please read the vision before posting a statement like that.
Discrimination and segregation is bad for any community. I guess I did not make that clear enough.
If the female gamers want to be singled out and play in a tournament of their own, sure have fun... I will still have the opinion that it's most likely distasteful and offending to female gamers. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they want to fit in rather than stick out.
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On June 10 2011 14:33 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you. This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group. I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly. And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
It's a perfectly valid argument, if you're not a complete idiot. How you read her post and got to affirmative action, I have no idea - the very idea that you would equate the two with a straight face blows my fucking mind. How is a system that gives hiring preference to certain minorities so as to create a more diverse workplace even remotely fucking comparable to creating a facebook/reddit group for just female gamers, or a tournament only for female gamers? They have literally nothing to do with one another in any conceivable way, shape or form. In fact, creating a female-oriented site, facebook group, tournament, etc. is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're calling 'affirmative action', because the goal in those spaces is NOT diversity - it's creating a separate space for female sc2 gamers so that the larger male sc2 gamer community doesn't overshadow them completely.
Look at it this way- by creating this site they're trying to increase the number of women who are interested in SC2. To do that, you might want to appeal to female gamers using a different website layout, a different tournament scene, different language, different social networking groups, etc. Do you speak to women the same way that you speak to men? Do you advertise to women in the same way that you do to men? So why would you think that you'd spark interest in SC2 within the female gamer community by using the same methods, language, websites, community role models etc. that you would with the male gamer community? It's just common sense.
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On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. If you're a good player you're a good player regardless of gender. The more you put yourself as different because you happen to be female, the more you'll be looked upon as pretty-faces by a massive majority of the male demographic. Note, I do not support this behaviour either ,but that's the way it is. Only way to change that is to show people you're better with them on equal terms.
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By having a place to showcase their talent with no interference. Kinda like what we are doing.
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On June 10 2011 15:24 Savreth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you. I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. If you're a good player you're a good player regardless of gender. The more you put yourself as different because you happen to be female, the more you'll be looked upon as pretty-faces by a massive majority of the male demographic. Note, I do not support this behaviour either ,but that's the way it is. Only way to change that is to show people you're better with them on equal terms.
Mark ourselves as different? Reality to you -- we are different. Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars. (I have no idea what that book espouses, but I think you get the point)
Give this a gander: http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/garp/articles/eccles91e.pdf
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As to why having women actively involved in esports is beneficial: http://www.nextnc.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=17575
excerpt
Peter Roby, director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University in Boston, said he thought the increasing number of female fans helped explain football's growing popularity.
"The thing that has contributed in the last 20 years to the NFL's growth is the number of females who are passionate about football," he said. "It seems to me that the females are as passionate as the men."
...
Marti Barletta, author of "Marketing to Women" and founder of the TrendSight Group, a consulting firm based in Winnetka, Ill., said other major sports would do well to learn from the NFL's example.
"I think it's essential for the big sports to be making friends with women, because women buy the majority of sports merchandise," she said. "So if nothing else, it's just good business."
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i get the need for an female esports league, a friend of mine was in a "high level" cs1.6 female team. Back in those days, there werent that many girls around.
this is just like athletics, man are just doing it for so much longer then females, History shows that men have these abilities by practising since the stoneage.
Woman would cook and care for the children, sitting on there butt. While men were running around getting chased by a sabletoothtiger because they missed the crucial shot (accuracy was a also a bitch back then  )
hope u guys get my point
then there is also the thing about confirming once identity, are the competitors really girls? how do u confirm something like that? get them on webcam to show them there boobs midgame? It WOULD give the livestream some amazing viewcount, but thats about it
oh, and its just hot to see a girl kick some sc2 ass
User was warned for this post
erm, ok, u dont get my point.
my point was: FEsports is a really good thing, but there are some things different then with regular esports...
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After reading this thread (and similar threads) ,i came to a conclusion that most of the guys in this community are so insecure about anything related to girls.
Seriously ,just mention the words "female" ,"girl" or woman" and "esports" or "sports" in one sentence and everything explodes.It's like kindergarten ,where all the boys starts giggling when they see a girl.For fucks sake...This is getting embarrassing.
I really hope ,that such female tournaments will open up some eyes around the community and we'll start seeing a more diverse gender distribution (aka not 100% guys and 0% girls) in tournaments.
Also ,to the guy who tried to use "history" as a basis to explain why there shouldn't be/there aren't any girls in e-sports and etc...You should REALLY get your facts straight ,before making such arguments.
I really see no reason why girls can't compete in high-end tournaments (NASL,MLG,dreamhack and etc).What.Does using a keyboard/mouse require a huge amount of muscle mass?Stamina?Give me a break.All you need is willpower to not break to mind games and pressure.And basic knowledge of mechanics.Lots of practice and experience.Girls are just as good at micro/macro/multitasking/decision making as guys.The only difference is ,that the already small female community is being chopped up into pieces ,because of the ridicule they get if they TRY to get into the e-sports scene.
This thread is a great example.
I suppose it's the internet.Can't expect much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck with your tournament.
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On June 10 2011 05:19 cheetahlol wrote:
Is it just me, or am I the only one who doesn't understand the purpose of having a female gaming league?
Can you please explain what problem this causes. Girls do not participate in e-sports. this gives them an opportunity. Why is that bad? Why isn't it good? I think it is a very good thing.
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On June 10 2011 14:33 Odal wrote:
And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
We don't need them, but if they want to play, who are you to say how they should go about it?
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I think also the bulk of girls that would play SC2 wouldn't play to be competetive unless a special field was arranged for them. My girlfriend for example played WoW, but never ever went near PvP. The whole idea of competition after all is largely an ego-driven thing i.e "I want to show this guy I am better than him." Don't try and deny it, we've all felt that little thrill over grinding someone into the dust.
There are always exceptions of course. But I would suggest that the vast majority of female gamers aren't in it for the competition because they lack that abstract idea of 'oh yeah I am so much better than you little nerdy guy, give me your damn ladder points'.
kellymilkies you are an exception
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On June 10 2011 15:24 Savreth wrote:
I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. .
It's the guys that mark them as different. They do not treat them the same way they treat girls. And that is the point.
You try going to a gay convention or club and you'll see exactly what problem straight women have with groups of straight men. Most people have good intentions, but it is annoying.
Women will not participate until THAT changes. And it won't until females are more established. This is one way to do it.
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On June 10 2011 18:08 Sernyl wrote:
After reading this thread (and similar threads) ,i came to a conclusion that most of the guys in this community are so insecure about anything related to girls.
Seriously ,just mention the words "female" ,"girl" or woman" and "esports" or "sports" in one sentence and everything explodes.It's like kindergarten ,where all the boys starts giggling when they see a girl.For fucks sake...This is getting embarrassing.
I really hope ,that such female tournaments will open up some eyes around the community and we'll start seeing a more diverse gender distribution (aka not 100% guys and 0% girls) in tournaments.
Also ,to the guy who tried to use "history" as a basis to explain why there shouldn't be/there aren't any girls in e-sports and etc...You should REALLY get your facts straight ,before making such arguments.
I really see no reason why girls can't compete in high-end tournaments (NASL,MLG,dreamhack and etc).What.Does using a keyboard/mouse require a huge amount of muscle mass?Stamina?Give me a break.All you need is willpower to not break to mind games and pressure.And basic knowledge of mechanics.Lots of practice and experience.Girls are just as good at micro/macro/multitasking/decision making as guys.The only difference is ,that the already small female community is being chopped up into pieces ,because of the ridicule they get if they TRY to get into the e-sports scene.
This thread is a great example.
I suppose it's the internet.Can't expect much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck with your tournament.
i think u are referring to me, but erm, with my "history" part, i just ment that girls have a disadvantage on men, not that there shouldnt be/arent any girls in e-sports.
on the contrary, i would LOVE to see some girl SC2 action, girls tend to be very creative.
and with my "boobs" line i ment what u say. Loads of people will only see the "boobies" and not the skill of the girls
im sorry if my replies are offending people in some way, they are not ment to do that.
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On June 10 2011 16:50 Dalaii wrote:
oh, and its just hot to see a girl kick some sc2 ass
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This is precisely the problem. As long as they are in a significant minority, this attitude from males is keeping them away. You mean well, but it is annoying to girls to basically be told that we just think they are hot, we don't care about your skills.
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I have some experience coaching both girls and guys in RL sports, and girls simply have different motivations than boys. Put simply, I would say that males in general want to succeed individually, and females are more driven by the team aspect, and the social part of being in a team. This is a generalisation of course, but does anyone think that a female team league might have more success attracting players for the above reason?
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EPT
