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This is not a discussion topic on whether you think women should run separate tournaments. This is a thread for the NESL Iron Lady events.
If you would like to sign up or wish them well or offer aid and support, this is the place. If you want to complain about the work they've put in or their message, don't. This is your warning. - Jibba 16:18PM EST / 05:18 KST |
On June 10 2011 18:18 Harmonious wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 16:50 Dalaii wrote:
oh, and its just hot to see a girl kick some sc2 ass
. This is precisely the problem. As long as they are in a significant minority, this attitude from males is keeping them away. You mean well, but it is annoying to girls to basically be told that we just think they are hot, we don't care about your skills.
but its directly how it is in real life.. why would it be any different in sc2? that is the main problem that im trying to discus here, but i lack the social skills to get my mind on paper.
girls will be girls, boys will be boys, and boys think with their penis when it comes to girls. This is something the Female athletics community even has no control over it.
so my point is, as long as there are girls, a good portion of the viewers will watch the stream "with their penis"
example: do u think sharapova would have had an even amount of succes if she was buttugly?
i think not, and that is how at this moment the world works. wether we like it or not
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On June 10 2011 19:03 Dalaii wrote:
but its directly how it is in real life.. why would it be any different in sc2? that is the main problem that im trying to discus here, but i lack the social skills to get my mind on paper.
girls will be girls, boys will be boys, and boys think with their penis when it comes to girls. This is something the Female athletics community even has no control over it.
so my point is, as long as there are girls, a good portion of the viewers will watch the stream "with their penis"
So you think that is just life and girls should not try to create an environment for themselves where they can escape it? This is girls taking responsibility for their own enjoyment of the game. I do not understand why this is a problem.
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On June 10 2011 19:06 Harmonious wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 19:03 Dalaii wrote:
but its directly how it is in real life.. why would it be any different in sc2? that is the main problem that im trying to discus here, but i lack the social skills to get my mind on paper.
girls will be girls, boys will be boys, and boys think with their penis when it comes to girls. This is something the Female athletics community even has no control over it.
so my point is, as long as there are girls, a good portion of the viewers will watch the stream "with their penis" So you think that is just life and girls should not try to create an environment for themselves where they can escape it? This is girls taking responsibility for their own enjoyment of the game. I do not understand why this is a problem.
its not a problem, ill just stop talking now, because everything i say somehow gets the reaction opposite of what i ment.
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I Think that a requirement should be webcam or cellphone recording of atleast 1 win. Behind every good starcraft 2 female player, there's a boyfriend that showed em the game. i dont think its much to ask for to say in finals for example, record 1 game with monitor and her showing with a cellphone or webcam. I watched some other tournament and a surtain female protoss became very good all off a sudden and apm increased drastictly also decision making became very good, i wasn't buying that at all. Even if they do have a mic, the risk that someone is sitting next to them playing is just as big.
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On June 10 2011 18:18 Harmonious wrote:
This is precisely the problem. As long as they are in a significant minority, this attitude from males is keeping them away. You mean well, but it is annoying to girls to basically be told that we just think they are hot, we don't care about your skills.
Um, he didn't say that. He basically said the exact opposite - that girls are hot to him BECAUSE of their skills. Just like some girls/guys have a "thing" for musicians, athletes, etc. A person can be attractive to someone for reasons other than their looks.
Ontopic: great idea, makes me sad that our society is still male-centric and socially unevolved in many ways, but as long as that fixes itself, female-only leagues are basically a requirement. GLHF to everyone involved 
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I fully support this. Best of luck for the tournament and all the ladies out there!
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On June 10 2011 16:02 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 15:24 Savreth wrote:On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you. I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. If you're a good player you're a good player regardless of gender. The more you put yourself as different because you happen to be female, the more you'll be looked upon as pretty-faces by a massive majority of the male demographic. Note, I do not support this behaviour either ,but that's the way it is. Only way to change that is to show people you're better with them on equal terms. Mark ourselves as different? Reality to you -- we are different. Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars. (I have no idea what that book espouses, but I think you get the point) Give this a gander: http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/garp/articles/eccles91e.pdf
Hit and miss.
You seem to miss my point that I am not looking at the fact that one is physically different than another. I am looking at the fact that we're humans, we're equal in all ways and this should be the way things go from my perspective.
Gender should not matter in the eSports scene. You're standing out because you're a good player and if you feel the need to join a specific league for women only to get more attention to females playing games, then in my eyes anyone loses credibility to say "we're constant victims of harrass". Instead of showing that YOU as a female gamer are better or equal skilled to male gamers, you let them put you in the corner "Oh they need their own league as they can't compete with us.
This kind of ignorance bothers me, especially because "most" women who think like this end up crying the most when people do treat them as different people instead of being one of the community.
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There are separate men and women leagues for almost any sport out there, even in sports that do not require a considerable amount of physcial strength (i.e. Pool, bowling, etc.) and yes, I feel that E-sports to a degree meets those parallels.
In general, men and women also view competition differently from each other, but this has been covered to death in previous posts, so I won't re-hash.
in my opinion, this is a huge step forward. period.
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On June 10 2011 20:10 Micro[TN] wrote:
I Think that a requirement should be webcam or cellphone recording of atleast 1 win. Behind every good starcraft 2 female player, there's a boyfriend that showed em the game. .
I believe they said they will ask everyone to get on vent/skype and answer some SC2 related questions ... and anyway, lots of us are regularly talking and playing together, so we kinda know each other ... If some dude would be that persistent to pretend to be female for months, just to be able to participate in a female tournament with symbolic money prizes, they need to get their head checked =p
This tournament has not even happened yet, but already has brought many female SC2 players together and has created a nice little community.
It's easy for a guy to just go to the local LAN place and meet lots of other individuals with the same interests. I can honestly admit that I have been too intimidated to do that, and I know many others are feeling the same. It's not easy to try to be part of the "boy's club" (obviously I'm talking about girls that genuinely have passion for the game itself, not just a different kind of interest in the male players >.>). And while I do know a lot of gamer girls in my city, no one of them is really into SC2. So discovering them online has been totally amazing.
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There's a 5th page of people talking out their ass now. This is incredible. I hope you're all satisfied that in every thread about women in the SC2 community, there's an embarrassingly stupid discussion proving absolutely nothing other than the individual user's ignorance.
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On June 10 2011 21:32 NaviListen wrote:
There's a 5th page of people talking out their ass now. This is incredible. I hope you're all satisfied that in every thread about women in the SC2 community, there's an embarrassingly stupid discussion proving absolutely nothing other than the individual user's ignorance.
I'd gladly discuss this in a specific topic. It's a very loaded subject, and it's something that is actual.
However, calling people out like that is uncalled for. No matter what gender you are or how good you play. Maybe reactions like this, avoiding the discussion and calling it "talking out of their ass" is what causes the problems which makes YOU feel the need for a ladies-only league.
Think outside the box.
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Awesome to see this getting established! Hope it goes well!
On June 10 2011 22:13 Savreth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 21:32 NaviListen wrote:
There's a 5th page of people talking out their ass now. This is incredible. I hope you're all satisfied that in every thread about women in the SC2 community, there's an embarrassingly stupid discussion proving absolutely nothing other than the individual user's ignorance. I'd gladly discuss this in a specific topic. It's a very loaded subject, and it's something that is actual. However, calling people out like that is uncalled for. No matter what gender you are or how good you play. Maybe reactions like this, avoiding the discussion and calling it "talking out of their ass" is what causes the problems which makes YOU feel the need for a ladies-only league. Think outside the box.
I don't think Navi is saying "don't discuss this", Navi is probably frustrated because every single time someone posts something about a ladies tournament, a few people bring up the same old tired arguments (e.g. "I don't see why this is necessary", etc.), and the thread ends up getting hijacked by very negative people.
And there is already a specific topic for the discussion Savreth want to have:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170298
This thread is about Iron Lady. If you want to harp on about the more general topic of women in SC2, take it to that other thread; but honestly, it has been discussed to death already.
Frankly, I think we should all support people working hard to grow e-sports.
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Perhaps you missed my contribution earlier that everybody seems to have skipped over in favor of arguing about "equality" like you are.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote:
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
And thank you thunderflesh, exactly my point.
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On June 10 2011 22:13 Savreth wrote:
Think outside the box.
Indeed, why don't you?
There are tournaments for people going to a certain school, or living in a certain city, or working for a certain enterprise (Blizzard had an internal one, didn't they). So what's the big deal with the women's tournament all of a sudden? I could understand if the main prize was a code S spot or something, but as it is now, some people are getting way too worked up over this one =p
If I organize an internal tournament in my workplace, I don't think anyone will come screaming that they want to participate too ...
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Good luck with your tournament! Hopefully enough of these tournaments can encourage the closet Starcraft girls to come out of their hiding places, and show that competing in Starcraft 2 is just as normal for girls as tennis, volleyball, handball etc. has been until now.
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On June 10 2011 22:57 Railin wrote:Indeed, why don't you? There are tournaments for people going to a certain school, or living in a certain city, or working for a certain enterprise (Blizzard had an internal one, didn't they). So what's the big deal with the women's tournament all of a sudden? I could understand if the main prize was a code S spot or something, but as it is now, some people are getting way too worked up over this one =p If I organize an internal tournament in my workplace, I don't think anyone will come screaming that they want to participate too ...
Simply put, the problem is that quite commonly women who enter such leagues, complain they get treated inequally. I have nothing against leagues itself, but I disapprove of the following in the original statement :
To start off, some may be wondering, why a section only for girls? The vision behind the Iron Lady section is to provide a place for female gamers to thrive in a male dominated sport. The goal will be to provide the highest quality tournaments and leagues, so that the top female gamers can finally shine just as much as the top male gamers do with no intimidation.
You don't take away the intimidation of the sad majority of men, by separating yourself from their scene. That's the wrong reasons to make such a league from my perspective.
Edit:
GENERAL NOTE: I do not disagree on leagues for women to have them compete. I disagree on the mindset behind leagues if they are made to stop "intimidation". That's a very important difference with a very very fine line in between. You're welcome to make female-only tournaments. Just don't come complaining about inequality or how you're treated. To quote a tweet I got from one of my followers :
By @commanderlovely
@aelonius Women wanna be equal but not be treated equally.
@aelonius Exactly, we deal with it all the time in the fighting game community as well.
@aelonius "Treat us equally!" "Okay, I'll just treat you like you're one of us then" "OMG YOURE SUCH A JERK STOP TREATING ME LIKE THIS"
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FESPORTS FIGHTING!!
Can't wait to see some sick female protoss to have an ecrush on.
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Realy nice idea, I totaly hope that this will give some female gamers the opportunity to get some attention and to show that they probably are as good as any other progamer.
Also I don't really see the point in this discussion, if you guys dont like the effort other people put into growing esports in every aspect it has to offer then just don't read/watch/talk/think about it. But don't use these threads to talk something down in which other people probably put a lot of thought and effort into!
Keep up the good work pHaRSiDE! Those haters may be pretty "loud" but they are only a minority who just don't seem to have anything constructive to add to esports like you do.
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Personally, I don't understand it... If I see a girl at a LAN, I'm not going to harass her or anything; she's just another player. At worst, she might get a second glance because you practically never see a girl at a LAN, but that's pretty much the same reaction anything out-of-the-ordinary would garner.
I think the key point is that everyone wants esports to grow but the perspective on this type of tournament is different. Some view this as willful segregation of the community, which is obviously bad. The other side views this as growing a small demographic into something bigger, which is good. Those 2 are not mutually exclusive though. I've known a few girls that "joined" because of something like this but then never ventured out to actually join the community, preferring to stick to the girls-only club.
The simple (yet nigh-impossible) solution is just to stop caring about gender online. I've actually gotten yelled at when my reaction was along the lines of "so?" to the revelation that someone was a girl in a game where gender absolutely didn't matter at all...
Guys: Treat the girls like people instead of a pair of boobs or inferior or whatever. Your "go back to the kitchen" jokes aren't funny and they just make you look like a tool. Harassing women is counterproductive both to having them join the community and to you getting laid.
Girls: You shouldn't even feel the need to advertise that you're a girl. It's completely irrelevant in this game. I realize there's idiots that drive you away from the scene but there's bad mannered idiots everywhere, regardless of gender. You just get a different type of vitriol than we do...
Until both genders grow up and stop treating the girls like they're special solely for their gender, these kinds of tourneys will be good to help enlarge the community, even if it does generate some separation as well. Overall, it still results in a bigger community...
I don't know why I felt the urge to write that out... Good luck with the tournament!
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EPT
