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United States47024 Posts
I don't think Skyrim's anything amazing, but it's also not frustratingly terrible like Oblivion and FO3 unmodded.
Maybe wei2coolman thinks otherwise, but I wouldn't call someone a tasteless hack for liking it, as much of a nostalgia-fag as I am.
On June 18 2015 10:16 Gahlo wrote:
In my opinion, a game doesn't have to be good to be fun and enjoyable. Because when I say "good" I mean from a design aspect. As such, if I were to have to mod a game to make it enjoyable then I don't consider it a good game. I, for instance, love KOTOR2 despite all its bugs, crashes, and the awful pacing nightmare that is the Peragus Mining Facility. I enjoy it, but I know it's a bad game.
To be fair, that's partly because you know that without any of those 3 things, it actually would be a good game. Don't really like that example.
In fact, if your criteria is "good" from a design standpoint, then KotOR 2 actually is good, lol. Because everything wrong with it is in it's execution/implementation, not it's design.
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On June 18 2015 10:14 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 10:09 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Maybe I'm just a tasteless hack but I've sunk hundreds of hours into Skyrim without ever modding it, and it's still one of my favorite games ever. Mine is also not an especially rare opinion. I think, while the game is absolutely broken, it's not nearly as bad as to be considered unplayable (at least on the PS3 version, the only one I've played). It's okay Ghandi. If people call you a tasteless hack for liking Skyrim, then I too, am a tasteless hack. You are not alone. Skyrim was the bee's knees.
This is the way I put it. 80's-90's actions films were fun as fuck, but cinematographic excellence they are not.
On June 18 2015 10:17 TheYango wrote:
I don't think Skyrim's anything amazing, but it's also not frustratingly terrible like Oblivion and FO3 unmodded.
Maybe wei2coolman thinks otherwise, but I wouldn't call someone a tasteless hack for liking it, as much of a nostalgia-fag as I am.
I got my money's worth out of skyrim, fun stuff. But, in no way did it give any new experiences that I felt were meaningful. Just felt like a "oh hey, there's this huge world of stuff rendered in 3d, go check it out.", but none of the quests feel like real adventures. Just didn't feel that epic.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 18 2015 10:15 wei2coolman wrote:
hl2 probably has some of the best pacing for a first person shooter single player I've ever played, it's amazing how iconic and seamless valve made the singleplayer.
TBH I felt like the single-player experience of HL2 was outshined by both HL1 and by the 2 episodes.
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Okay moonbear,
So when you go to gp london. I'm gunna need you to pick up the praise Allah playmat for me. Because reasons.
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On June 18 2015 10:21 Cixah wrote:
Okay moonbear,
So when you go to gp london. I'm gunna need you to pick up the praise Allah playmat for me. Because reasons.
You're looking to get shot, aren't you. [/jokeabouttexanstereotypes]
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On June 18 2015 10:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 10:15 wei2coolman wrote:
hl2 probably has some of the best pacing for a first person shooter single player I've ever played, it's amazing how iconic and seamless valve made the singleplayer. TBH I felt like the single-player experience of HL2 was outshined by both HL1 and by the 2 episodes.
HL1 is based on how frustrated you got regarding the tri-tentacle level. I played HL1 when I was still a kid, so it was sort of frustrating. but looking back at it, it was a beautifully designed level.
As far as episodes were concerned, I sort of just packaged them with HL2 as a whole, even though it's probably more fair to count them as their separate experiences.
Episode 2 was probably my favorite, then HL2, then episode 1. But not by a large margin between HL2 and episode 1.
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The thing that Oblivion had that is lacking in every other ES game is actual good characters.
Also Bioshock infinite is vastly superior to HL2 when it comes to pacing.
Never bothered with ep 1 and 2 though.
On June 18 2015 10:15 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 09:31 Eppa! wrote:On June 18 2015 09:26 Crusnik wrote:On June 18 2015 09:14 Sufficiency wrote:
Ah, another Steam Sale, another round of contemplation on deciding to buy Oblivion or not. The only good part of Oblivion is Shivering Isles, everything else is ass. And I'm home now...still need to shower, but I'm finally home... Ass guild had an amazing story. Main quest is lol. Mage and Fighter guild was decent I think. The glaring problems with Oblivion can be moded away anyway. Yeah, buy this brand new honda s2k and sink in 100k under the hood it'll perform almost like a decent sports car.
Probably this years dumbest comment. Its more that the idea is that you buy this GOAT gear box and then build the rest of the car because driving it will give a totally new amazing experience.
Shivering Isles is danker but worse than most parts of Oblivion.
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On June 18 2015 10:30 Eppa! wrote:The thing that Oblivion had that is lacking in every other ES game is actual good characters. Also Bioshock infinite is vastly superior to HL2 when it comes to pacing. Never bothered with ep 1 and 2 though. Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 10:15 wei2coolman wrote:On June 18 2015 09:31 Eppa! wrote:On June 18 2015 09:26 Crusnik wrote:On June 18 2015 09:14 Sufficiency wrote:
Ah, another Steam Sale, another round of contemplation on deciding to buy Oblivion or not. The only good part of Oblivion is Shivering Isles, everything else is ass. And I'm home now...still need to shower, but I'm finally home... Ass guild had an amazing story. Main quest is lol. Mage and Fighter guild was decent I think. The glaring problems with Oblivion can be moded away anyway. Yeah, buy this brand new honda s2k and sink in 100k under the hood it'll perform almost like a decent sports car. Probably this years dumbest comment. Its more that the idea is that you buy this GOAT gear box and then build the rest of the car because driving it will give a totally new amazing experience. Shivering Isles is danker but worse than most parts of Oblivion.
except, the whole point of a triple A title is to give you a complete experience right out of the box.
if you want goat gear box, buy/get a developer license for the graphics engine.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 18 2015 10:30 Eppa! wrote:
The thing that Oblivion had that is lacking in every other ES game is actual good characters.
Probably this years dumbest comment. Its more that the idea is that you buy this GOAT gear box and then build the rest of the car because driving it will give a totally new amazing experience.
That's way overselling Oblivion lol.
And really, I've still only met a very small number of people who've even played the full quadfecta of PST + FO1/2 + BG1/2 + Arcanum (yes I know, not everyone will enjoy these 6 games, but it's just an example, so bear with it). So it's hard to recommend an Oblivion modded experience when they haven't exhausted the list of CRPGs that are better out of the box (well OK, Arcanum is shit out of the box, but the mod list is like 1 fixpack + a high-qual music mod + a high-res cutscene mod).
The CRPG genre at this point is too prolific for me to justify telling someone to spend a large # of hours modding a game to get an experience that's at *best* equal to a lot of good games out of the box.
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On June 18 2015 10:16 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 10:09 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Maybe I'm just a tasteless hack but I've sunk hundreds of hours into Skyrim without ever modding it, and it's still one of my favorite games ever. Mine is also not an especially rare opinion. I think, while the game is absolutely broken, it's not nearly as bad as to be considered unplayable (at least on the PS3 version, the only one I've played). In my opinion, a game doesn't have to be good to be fun and enjoyable. Because when I say "good" I mean from a design aspect. As such, if I were to have to mod a game to make it enjoyable then I don't consider it a good game. I, for instance, love KOTOR2 despite all its bugs, crashes, and the awful pacing nightmare that is the Peragus Mining Facility. I enjoy it, but I know it's a bad game.
First of all, I want to say I get where you're coming from.
But I just feel like a "good" game is a game that you have fun playing. But let's say that you're playing a poorly designed game but you have a blast doing so. The way I see it, if you had fun playing that game then it was designed well. Or at least, designed well enough that one could have fun.
To have a poorly designed game that is fun seems a little contradictory to me. That being said, "good" to you is good design, where "good" for me is "is it fun?". So really I'm trying to compare apples and oranges haha.
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United States47024 Posts
Well the distinction is that enjoying a game is subject to a lot of subjective preferences, based on how important particular gameplay elements are to you. Whereas "good design" tends to ascribe some objective value based on aggregate opinions or objective metrics.
For example, if a game has shit combat, but a good story, that doesn't necessarily mean the game was good as a whole if you're a story kind of person who enjoyed it--it just means that you happen to have a particular preference that biased you toward the things the game did well.
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On June 18 2015 10:49 TheYango wrote:
Well the distinction is that enjoying a game is subject to a lot of subjective preferences, based on how important particular gameplay elements are to you. Whereas "good design" tends to ascribe some objective value based on aggregate opinions or objective metrics.
For example, if a game has shit combat, but a good story, that doesn't necessarily mean the game was good as a whole if you're a story kind of person who enjoyed it--it just means that you happen to have a particular preference that biased you toward the things the game did well.
I think this is absolutely fair.
All I want to add on though, how well a game is designed is based upon what it was designed to do. So if I designed a game to be fun and people have fun playing it, then I would think I could reasonably conclude that my game was well designed. Of course, you could judge my game's design under different aspects, which is totally fair, and relates to what you are saying.
And of course, if I designed my game to be an e-sports game but it isn't played at all at a competitive level, then I would think that my game's design is poor because it didn't do what I wanted it to do. Of course people could still have fun playing my game, but because it isn't an e-sports game it's poorly designed.
I think it's similar to real life, really. If I design, say, a purple jello that douses fires and then this purple jello does douse fire then I would think that's good design. Likewise, if it fails to douse fire it's poorly designed.
And of course, my way of thinking might be flawed so feel free to tell me so! I'm just thinking aloud right now.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, I would hope every game is designed to be fun and for people to have fun playing with it. The medium isn't mature enough for anything other than that yet (I imagined some snooty guy saying "my game isn't meant to be *fun*--it's more sophisticated than that!").
Even with e-sports games, only the ones that people actually have fun playing have really taken off.
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On June 18 2015 10:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 10:30 Eppa! wrote:
The thing that Oblivion had that is lacking in every other ES game is actual good characters.
Probably this years dumbest comment. Its more that the idea is that you buy this GOAT gear box and then build the rest of the car because driving it will give a totally new amazing experience. That's way overselling Oblivion lol. And really, I've still only met a very small number of people who've even played the full quadfecta of PST + FO1/2 + BG1/2 + Arcanum (yes I know, not everyone will enjoy these 6 games, but it's just an example, so bear with it). So it's hard to recommend an Oblivion modded experience when they haven't exhausted the list of CRPGs that are better out of the box (well OK, Arcanum is shit out of the box, but the mod list is like 1 fixpack + a high-qual music mod + a high-res cutscene mod). The CRPG genre at this point is too prolific for me to justify telling someone to spend a large # of hours modding a game to get an experience that's at *best* equal to a lot of good games out of the box.
I never said that Oblivion is amazing in a lot of ways. I said that it has amazing characters (unlike every other rpg) and good story. If you enjoy that, Oblivion is worth it to play/buy. Modding doesn't really change that its just that modding makes the other parts of the game passable.
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United States47024 Posts
It's been too long for me to judge Oblivion's characters relative to the rest of TES, but compared to the CRPG genre as a whole, it's nothing special.
The story's pretty bland too, IMO--just the same drivel as a lot of fantasy RPGs.
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United States23745 Posts
On June 18 2015 11:02 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I would hope every game is designed to be fun and for people to have fun playing with it. The medium isn't mature enough for anything other than that yet (I imagined some snooty guy saying "my game isn't meant to be *fun*--it's more sophisticated than that!").
Even with e-sports games, only the ones that people actually have fun playing have really taken off.
Papers, Please is probably the best example to counteract that point.
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United States47024 Posts
I still felt like that game was designed to be fun, despite the fact that people might not necessarily have found it to be so.
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On June 18 2015 11:02 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I would hope every game is designed to be fun and for people to have fun playing with it. The medium isn't mature enough for anything other than that yet (I imagined some snooty guy saying "my game isn't meant to be *fun*--it's more sophisticated than that!").
Even with e-sports games, only the ones that people actually have fun playing have really taken off.
This War of Mine isn't incredibly fun, but it's enjoyable. It about the message in that game.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, it still uses the gameplay formula of a genre that is fun without any of the message attached to it (2d survival games), so I don't know if you can say being fun wasn't a goal of the design when games of the same mold are fun without delivering a message.
EDIT: Part of why the message is so powerful is because of how the game being inherently fun draws you into it before it presents you the philosophical challenges. It would not be as powerful without the engagement of being fun. Without the game first getting you fundamentally invested in the outcome of your group of survivors, you wouldn't have any more attachment to these scenarios than you do seeing them on the news. The game has to engage you viscerally before it does philosophically/emotionally and the only way it can do that still is by being fun to play.
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I didn't find Myst particularly fun, but I'm not really a huge puzzle gamer.
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EPT
