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content warning: srs "what is culture" discussion
re holyflare:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 22 2015 08:53 Holyflare wrote:
Yes but that is the whole conversation. Those problems will never stop. Ever. There will always be a new form of orientalism due to the fact that the globe is so vast and people are also inherently lazy. Everything will always be misinterpreted, bastardised and then the original meaning will eventually be lost or misconstrued to negatively effect the original people.
This is the basis of culture. People get fucked and the culture evolves to a new form. You can take the individual person moral ground if you want but the topic itself is an amoral one about inherent human desires and adaption. Ok. To be blunt in my opinion, I think you have a really shitty understanding of culture, although you're welcome to have your own amateur theorywork and I won't stop you from it. To speak in a very broad sense, you're making broad claims that run contradictory to the vast majority of theory work in social sciences, particularly the academically popular ones, and there is no shortage of examples from those fields that substantiate their own theories while providing clear evidence that your theory does not reflect reality particularly consistently (though it may apply in several cases). It's a bit like saying "Here's my alternative theory of gravity: everything moves towards the surface of the earth". While this theory is occasionally correct in the sense that many things will move towards the surface of the earth, there are many cases where this doesn't happen that this theory can't account for, and there are much better theories that explain much more.
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THS is honestly a lot better at arguing this than I am. I am agreeing with everything he is saying.
This is not a discussion that I've ever really needed to have before. Most of the people I surround myself with have the same opinion/understanding as me on this topic.
I'm still waiting for Scip to wake up and be like "you guys I just meant that people who do yoga are gay LOL"
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On October 22 2015 09:15 Ketara wrote:
THS is honestly a lot better at arguing this than I am. I am agreeing with everything he is saying.
This is not a discussion that I've ever really needed to have before. Most of the people I surround myself with have the same opinion/understanding as me on this topic.
I'm still waiting for Scip to wake up and be like "you guys I just meant that people who do yoga are gay LOL"
Well, it's a discussion that spawned in response to something I said, where the thing that I said was a [overly academic response]-joke, so it's intuitive that the discussion would be within my areas of expertise (in this case, anthropology and "activism" focused community organizing). I mean, I'm sure if I tried arguing with you about something lux or thailand related in response to some lux math or a harem adventures blog post, then of course I'd be walking right into your areas of expertise and you would likely know what you're talking about more than I would.
I wish Teut was here, personally.
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Why is my area of expertise anime girls and not getting laid wtf.
+ Show Spoiler +I think I laughed so hard I need a doctor
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On October 22 2015 09:29 Ketara wrote:Why is my area of expertise anime girls and not getting laid wtf. + Show Spoiler +I think I laughed so hard I need a doctor
Ah, that's Wave's area of expertise.
+ Show Spoiler +the doctor part, not the getting laid part
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Blargh, this month needs to go faster, I just want to not be stressed out and angry/annoyed all the time...
Make me laugh, give me suggestions for something that's funny please. Or I guess I could watch the new Gundam I guess or go back to watching 8th MS team...
On October 22 2015 09:37 Ketara wrote:
Wave.
How I get girl?
The freight cost shouldn't be that high considering your location.
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On October 22 2015 08:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 08:09 Eppa! wrote:
Wtf what your talking about economic exploitation and has nothing to with orientalism or exoticism. Uh, no, these things are definitely related in many but not all cases. For easy references, there is a long history of people who made their living as anthropologists creating Orientalist ethnographies, "japonaise" art (which refers to a specific time/period of French oreitnalism) is still commonly displayed in museums and such, and orientalist operas like Madame Butterfly are still common (within opera, which is uncommon as a whole I guess). In all of these cases, the people profiting from their production/display/recreation are not the group they negatively effect, and they are rarely used in a manner that creates serious discussion about contemporary orientalism within a given context (aka doing it for good reasons). The art your talking is an interpretation of other cultures, older art is a historic view of an interpretation of other cultures, its still is questionable to say a play is negative in what it gives and still not showing the bad things about modern orientalism.Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 08:09 Eppa! wrote:
The example of asking where your from is very common as is more about curiosity rather than racist
at worst it's ignorance and if its ignorance; its ignorance that is the problem not a common social construct. Er, I'm not sure I understand your example. What exactly is the ignorant person choosing to ignore in this example? And why is this example reducible to only a singular problem (aka why can't it be both)? I understand the phenomena you're describing and have regular experience with it. I think you're somewhat oversimplifying the phenomena when you say it's "more about curiosity [than racism]". I do agree with you that the intent certainly aligns with that statement and while it may be more about curiousity than racism it's certainly a racialized example and there are many factors at play, here, many of which are social constructs. It's racial it's not racism, being of Asian descent isn't negative in any way. It very common in every part of the world.
The ignorant part is only that you don't want to talk about it and they keep talking about it. Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 08:10 Holyflare wrote:This is an amoral position on the matter, which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It's not as though maintaining cultural purity is an objectively good thing - it's that in some cases these misinterpretations, often created intentionally for profit of various kinds, have negative effects on the lives of real people. This is the core problem of orientalism, and discussion regarding it should centre people rather than cultures. Of course it's amoral because culture is not a thing based on morals. Of course when something changes some people are less fortunate than others and in this case the bias of one culture influences another and what you and Ketara are saying is that it impacts some people super negatively. Well that's what culture does, it fucks people over to adapt to the rich and powerful, that has been the way for eternity. Tough titties. 1.) You misunderstood my point - the argument I'm proposing (orientalism is bad) is a fundamentally a moral argument. Your counterpoint (culture is constantly changing) was amoral. Your counterpoint is true, but it's not relevant to a moral argument in the same way that my jeans being made of denim isn't relevant here. I'm not saying that culture is intrinsically moral, which is what you seem to be responding to. 1.5) unless I misunderstand you and you mean to also posit that "culture is changing => everything cultural is ok morally" (aka cultural relativism). 2.) That's a terrible interpretation of culture. Not terrible as in depressing, but terrible as in I'm not sure how you came to this interpretation. It sounds like you're actually describing capitalism, or some other system of economic exchange, or maybe even social power, but you're using the name "culture" to refer to the wrong phenomena. Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 08:10 Holyflare wrote:
In all honesty Ketara is arguing for the standpoint of maintaining cultural purity which is about as great as saving pandas (useless) while you're saying he's not. That's fine, I may in fact be misinterpreting Ketara. I'm open to that idea. If so, my bad.
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On October 22 2015 09:37 Ketara wrote:
Wave.
How I get girl?
Get a job you slacker !!!
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On October 22 2015 09:15 Ketara wrote:
THS is honestly a lot better at arguing this than I am. I am agreeing with everything he is saying.
This is not a discussion that I've ever really needed to have before. Most of the people I surround myself with have the same opinion/understanding as me on this topic.
I'm still waiting for Scip to wake up and be like "you guys I just meant that people who do yoga are gay LOL"
Why do you need a girl when you have circlejerk.
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On October 22 2015 09:43 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Get a job you slacker !!!
Please.
Getting a job is so 2010.
NEET4life IMO.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
I actually think THS has no idea what he's talking about tbh. He said orientalism is bad, I agree but think it's futile to discuss since culture constantly adapts and fucks people over. He somehow says that that interpretation of culture is wrong and not founded in social science despite that being possibly the most prevalent argument in social science ever.
The facts.
Culture exists.
People misconstrue culture and it negatively impacts those people that are discriminated against (see stereotypes and inherent lazyness that stems from basic brain function below)
Other people exploit the misinformation for personal gain. (see numerous articles on greed for self gain and satisfaction)
Insert migration and adaption and tourism.
People join the bandwagon and it starts to become a cultural norm, culture evolves to fit this. (There are several theories of cultural adaptions really so it's silly that you say there is one that is agreed upon. Either culture follows capitalism or capitalism follows culture (weber/marx/durkheim are all basis for modern social science) , in either case it leads to a change in culture which resorts back to the initial PYSHCOLOGICAL argument that people are lazy and will discriminate)
New culture is born and people have been fucked over in the process.
Yes it's social sciences but the basis of this all is so heavily weighted in psychology that it's surprising you poo-poo very well known phenomenon that people are inherently lazy (Inherently lazy/stereotypes) and greedy (insert random million journals here about greed and personal gain).
Finally, you can't change the human psyche and the pattern will happen all over again with a new victimised group or society.
See: the entirety of history
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On October 22 2015 09:37 Crusnik wrote:Blargh, this month needs to go faster, I just want to not be stressed out and angry/annoyed all the time... Make me laugh, give me suggestions for something that's funny please. Or I guess I could watch the new Gundam I guess or go back to watching 8th MS team... The freight cost shouldn't be that high considering your location.
And may or may not involve Orientalism.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
Honestly i have no idea what anyone is arguing for. Nobody disagrees that discrimination is bad.
Comparing the bastardisation of yoga and the treatment of people is a bit of a huge stretch though since scip just said it was too oriental but ignored most of the actual benefits of it. The fact it's subject to orientalism is irrelevant when comparing the health benefits as Soniv stated (meditation etc).
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You guys better read my Myanmar writeup when I post it.
Since their big deal election is soon I'm actually trying for that one.
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United States15536 Posts
Hey guys, we've gotten 2~ pages into this discussion and nothing's moving forward, so let's quit this. It's clear that the conversation is being dominated by only a few people at this point and because that's the case it'd be better for it to head to PMs or another medium.
Thanks.
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Wait what?
Why is it a bad discussion?
Nobody is being hostile, and I disagree that it's not moving anywhere.
Just because only a few people are actively engaging in it? That doesn't mean others aren't reading it.
By the same reasoning you could ban people from talking about D&D or Magic.
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I for one, fully support not reading any more of it.
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Asmo want his dank maymays alright?
With this DnD, HearthStone, Magic, Smash, Dota2, CS and Overwatch are all banned topics.
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On October 22 2015 10:53 Dandel Ion wrote:
I for one, fully support not reading any more of it.
I mean, that's fine. I don't like it when you guys talk about hearthstone. I don't bitch about it or try to get the topic shut down.
I'd understand if we were being toxic and insulting each other but we aren't, we are having a reasonable, adult conversation about something that I find very interesting.
"Not enough people like this" is a pretty scary precedent to set for censorship.
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EPT
