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Forum Index > The Shopkeeper′s Inn
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AsmodeusXI
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States15536 Posts
October 25 2017 15:28 GMT
#35521
On October 25 2017 23:51 phyvo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:47 jcarlsoniv wrote:
D&D quotes are always great

From last night - "If the world was dreaming, this is the dream it would have of its physical self."


Hah, I that's a good one. You guys kind of make me envious. Everything I touched here at LL died horribly and I'm kind of nervous about trying to join an online group (so far I haven't met any IRL friends who do any tabletop stuff). It's fun to think about characters and stuff but at this point maybe I should just start writing fiction.

Regardless though I'm glad that you guys have kept it up for all this time.


My favorite from recent Iris so far is "I'm pretty sure that the world has a pretty high Constitution score."

But yeah, we were just remarking on the miracle that it is that Iris has continued for how long it has. Most groups would be SO dead at this point. We're just still managing to make it happen, even though we have month long breaks with some frequency because everyone has lives it turns out.

Adam Koebel talks a bit about this on one of this Office Hours shows: people don't usually feel allowed to make time for "play" in their lives. Understandable sometimes because there's a lot that takes precedence over free time, but also, there's no shame in making time to get together and play a game. It's just hard to get folks to commit to that sometimes.

You could always try a West Marches style thing if you're up for GMing! At least that DEMANDS player flexibility and buy-in!

http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/
WriterTL > RL. BNet: Asmodeus#1187 - LoL: DJForeclosure - Steam: asmodeusxi | www.n3rddimension.com
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
October 25 2017 17:27 GMT
#35522
I was going to make a post on this but I've been wanting to try my hand at DM-ing for some time now.

I already have a list of people who are interested in a one-shot, so if anyone else here is interested I'll add Y'all to the list, we can try to find a time and date that works for 5 people, we'll do a character creation session and then a one shot, probably 5e and set in the world of iris since that's what I know.

The sooner I try to or ginseng this the sooner I'll be forced to actually come up with a decent story event or whatever.


In other news, I logged onto HS last night but I didn't see any free arena or anything particularly different about things. What is this spooky arena?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 25 2017 17:30 GMT
#35523
I am 100% down to play a Wave-DMed game.
Moderator
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
October 25 2017 17:43 GMT
#35524
Hmmm.
Just read this west marches thing---correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that sort of thing be perfect for TLers?

Variable groups, variable schedules, play with whoever and when you can, no exclusion if a lot of people want to try...

I wonder if we could make that work too.
I think I still want to do a one shot so I can get used to DMing but if there's interest maybe we can throw something together? I think overall I prefer the RP and storytelling side of DND to the straight combat/adventure/tactics (or a healthy mix of both) so I'm not sure that I'd want to DM it or not
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
AsmodeusXI
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States15536 Posts
October 25 2017 18:47 GMT
#35525
I'll say this.

If I were starting a TL D&D game today, it'd ABSOLUTELY be West Marches style. That would make shit SO MUCH EASIER and include SO MANY MORE PEOPLE.
WriterTL > RL. BNet: Asmodeus#1187 - LoL: DJForeclosure - Steam: asmodeusxi | www.n3rddimension.com
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
October 25 2017 20:19 GMT
#35526
Does one shot mean "one evening and that's it"? Because I would totally be down to play a red shirt.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
October 25 2017 20:29 GMT
#35527
Ideally.
If it's not a super shitshow I could consider a campaign if the time and want is there but that's probably a ways off.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 25 2017 20:35 GMT
#35528
There's nothing stopping people from re-using characters from previous one shots either, or weaving a campaign around a very large cast that mixes-and-matches, or just comes across one another for various reasons. You just build it up as you go without an end goal in mind, and it links your one-shots together.

Or you do a string of unrelated games just for the heck of it. o/
And the bored GM will pick up the fun characters you came up with to make them appear as NPCs in some unrelated one-shot years down the line.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 21:03:27
October 25 2017 21:03 GMT
#35529
See, here's what I'm thinking:

+ Show Spoiler +
In some isolated area there's a village which, through a mix of cruel necessity and centuries thereof, has thrived by offering yearly sacrifices to ward off their destruction at the hands of a threat which, it turns out, died out long ago anyway. Unfortunately the need to sacrifice themselves has essentially been both bred into them through selection and drilled into them through culture.

Well meaning holy pilgrims who chanced upon them attempted to change their ways, but only succeeded in redirecting the sacrifices to their own god, who wasn't exactly pleased. Fearful that they might accidentally direct them to a god who enjoyed that sort of thing if they didn't handle things gingerly, the pilgrims very carefully and slowly convinced the villagers to redirect their sacrifice to a more practical purpose.

Enter Derrin Sweetblood. Through a fairly simple, if legally dubious, arrangement he has been hired to serve as the most expendable member of your party. He will test any traps, taste foods for poison, and generally undertake all your most suicidal actions for you. It's okay, he's literally born for this job, and would gladly run into a horde of goblins carrying the world's largest "firework", lit. When he finally goes, and he will, all that's required is that any leftovers of his payment be sent home.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 21:42:25
October 25 2017 21:41 GMT
#35530
On October 26 2017 06:03 Seuss wrote:
See, here's what I'm thinking:

+ Show Spoiler +
In some isolated area there's a village which, through a mix of cruel necessity and centuries thereof, has thrived by offering yearly sacrifices to ward off their destruction at the hands of a threat which, it turns out, died out long ago anyway. Unfortunately the need to sacrifice themselves has essentially been both bred into them through selection and drilled into them through culture.

Well meaning holy pilgrims who chanced upon them attempted to change their ways, but only succeeded in redirecting the sacrifices to their own god, who wasn't exactly pleased. Fearful that they might accidentally direct them to a god who enjoyed that sort of thing if they didn't handle things gingerly, the pilgrims very carefully and slowly convinced the villagers to redirect their sacrifice to a more practical purpose.

Enter Derrin Sweetblood. Through a fairly simple, if legally dubious, arrangement he has been hired to serve as the most expendable member of your party. He will test any traps, taste foods for poison, and generally undertake all your most suicidal actions for you. It's okay, he's literally born for this job, and would gladly run into a horde of goblins carrying the world's largest "firework", lit. When he finally goes, and he will, all that's required is that any leftovers of his payment be sent home.

+ Show Spoiler +
Only if you call the village "OT", the sacrifices ketara temps, threat "LL moderation and rejuvination", and the pilgrims are people who "attempt to revive strat section."

Can the first dungeon be an LR thread
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 25 2017 21:50 GMT
#35531
+ Show Spoiler +
I was thinking you'd segue into a werewolf (as in, the mafia rip-off) situation at first.

But now I'm stealing that if I'm asked to short notice host again (especially for a black plague variant—when there are no scum, but an epidemy killing people chosen by the host each night, until the town decide to "quarantine themselves" (by calling out the plague and not lynching that day).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
October 26 2017 00:56 GMT
#35532
Only mildly related but Alaric if you hate all the recent draft formats all this week they're running triple innistrad which is considered one of the best of all time.

It'll challenge you and if you hate it it means you're bad
:D
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 01:44:16
October 26 2017 01:41 GMT
#35533
It's on MTGO, I'm not there. I'm watching streams tho but not that many people seem to play it, and my ISP is terrible with Twitch (read: they refused to get an agreement to pay for better routing when they're overloaded, so in the evenings which is when NA streamers get on and most French people get back from work I have a choice between auto quality and swapping every 5s or constant 360p) so I can't read the cards quite effectively. Not gonna stop me!

For the record, my favourite draft formats so far is SOI (dunno if CN2 is favourite or 2nd favourite, but it's more about the mechanics than the content) so obviously I'm intrigued and want to see it in action.
I also liked 3x AKH because it challenged drafting heuristics and rewarded people for knowing how to change their priorities (which also means I think it's a bad beginner format, just like 3x XLN is unless everyone's a beginner and they go for Timmy tribal stuff). I've disliked how punishing 3x KLD can be and the "automated" games it can produce, HOU because while everyone loves it having 5c as the best archetype is degenerate and the fixing warped the draft portion into a frustrating shitshow, and I could warm up to 3x XLN if I get to draft it some more outside the usual place to see what stems from the local meta.

Speaking of which, I got in touch with the organiser for my old school's club. I don't think I'd go to draft there too much if they did it regularly because even the more seasoned players of the pod were below the club/shop's regulars, and I'd feel bad in a clearly mismatched pod instead of fostering growth, but they've got a bunch of beginners they initiated to the game to whom I'd gladly give all my chaff for their casual decks, instead of having it go to the bin. Plus maybe they'll be more interesting in Conspiracy drafts which I've been unable to get going at the shop.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 03:28:20
October 26 2017 03:16 GMT
#35534
I'm so fucking confused Alaric because the think you like AKH for is true of XLN, and the thing you hate KLD for is true of AKH.

You hate KLD games for being automatic but AKH was literally the most non-interactive "attacking-past-each-other" format we've had since you even started playing Magic in the first place.

Also, you're vastly overstating how much AKH challenged draft norms. It's just an aggressive non-interactive format that plays like an aggressive non-interactive format. It looked like a slow grindy format because Cycling and Embalm are slow grindy mechanics and people didn't realize how broken the Exert cards were at the outset, but that only took like 2 weeks to figure out.

You keep harping on 5c being the best deck in HOU when that's basically just the week-one understanding of the format and people kind of got past that by the time of the Pro Tour. A good version of other decks like UR Spells were better than the average 5c deck, the 5c deck just happened to be a safe fallback if you were open going into pack 2 and opened an off-color bomb. Finding an open good archetype was still rewarded over just forcing 5c "pick all the bombs".

Ixalan does a lot more challenging heuristics/draft norms given that Goblin War Paint is an actual playable card.
Moderator
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 04:02:57
October 26 2017 04:00 GMT
#35535
On October 26 2017 03:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:
I'll say this.

If I were starting a TL D&D game today, it'd ABSOLUTELY be West Marches style. That would make shit SO MUCH EASIER and include SO MANY MORE PEOPLE.

this is what i was doing with pacelena but everything in my life collapsed all at once and i couldnt continue.


On October 26 2017 05:29 WaveofShadow wrote:
Ideally.
If it's not a super shitshow I could consider a campaign if the time and want is there but that's probably a ways off.



One of the more fun groups i'd been a part of was kind of like the expendables. it was a series of one shots we did whenever we had time, and the premise was always like the gang gets back together to save the world one last time or whatever. lol intentionally a little over the top/cheesy. but its all we had time for, so we got some continuity between sessions but stuff was always different.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 13:23:03
October 26 2017 13:11 GMT
#35536
On October 26 2017 12:16 TheYango wrote:

Uh... I'm going to try and sum it up (which means I'm diving for 30 minutes and still gonna fail orz).

KLD:
I probably overstate it a bit, as it was the first time the heuristics changed so much for me and the speed difference between it and the previous format is bigger than we had with AKH or XLN.
Drafting 2-drops over "good cards" was paramount and some colours only had one (like B) so it dictated your picks a lot.
It was a "be creative, do nonsense"-advertised theme park, but with a "you must be this tall to compete" bar at the ride's entrance that was pretty darn high and the dissonance from the ad gave this a bad feeling.
It didn't prevent blocking, but it made it chumping, and energy-related creatures could get bigger and bigger, while a vehicle would often (always, for the crew 1 like Freighter) upgrade your worst creature into them; you didn't immediatly lost if you skipped a beat, but the snowball forbade stabilising anyway.
How crucial having action on curve was made it a 16-lands format, along with mana sinks turned into energy sinks.


AKH:
I'm talking about post-"damn, we actually can't block." And the fact that at that point R-based aggro decks were known enough that draft was self-correcting (wouldn't be objective before that as I knew from the start Cartouche of Zeal was very strong in its specific deck and punished people left and right; later turned out that the "specific deck" was a full archetype and the best thing to do).
You couldn't block, but since in 80%+ of cases you shouldn't block early in KLD I kinda think "it's the same, but they spell it out this time so you know."
Compared to KLD the interaction was cheap/more powerful, though, and most colours had a better choice of early drops (with the exception of B which suffered from it a lot). The nuts openings from great decks would not interact with you, but since they relied on uncommons in the most contested colour they weren't as frequent as KLD's Freighter/energy curveout openers.
The format doesn't go as deep as KLD where nonsense is concerned either (Embalmer's Tools not being playable for example, and BG ended up more as a pile than a synergy deck), so there's less feeling of "squandered potential" when it ends up fast and forcing the synergy decks to spend half their picks to survive, which softens my evaluation.
I still wish U was a bit better, you'd never have to fight for it, but you still need to see that the solid cards were opened before you can move into it. That and BG/UG suffering from few ways to stabilise (B gets the removal, higher drops and synergy payoffs, but relies on the other colour to provide the early meat which G wasn't that great at).


HOU:
As I've said, it may have been a local meta thing. And it's a heck of a bitch to keep "short". But here's how it went for me:
+ Show Spoiler +
UR didn't punish 5c bombs so much as it punished UGx ramp, which it did very well.
X/4s walled most aggro which was neutered this set, greediness went over the top of midrange:
RW was easy to wall, GW bland boardstall.dec w/o the key uncommons, BW could only support one person on average, BG had even less support than in AKH.
B in general had little going on and was a support colour outside of zombies, so it was usually feast or famine because of people cutting/splashing the good cards in your other colour (especially true of UB and BR).

More than 5c performing, it was people forcing/being greedy with 5c and its effect on the draft that made me mad:
People picked Ambuscade/Ritualist/Sifter Wurm super high, then bombs and strong cards, passing most G until mid-late pack 2 where either they started gobbling up all G or had a second colour and consolidated on the pair with several splashes. If you were G you could never be sure whether it was truly open or would randomly disappear in pack 3, if you weren't G finding an open pair was hard due to few good cards going late and/or you'd randomly get your payoff/good cards cut by goodstuff drafters.
Switching after opening a bomb pack 2 (or even 3!) or getting passed a strong unco P2P2 was very common, and done regardless of signals. + Show Spoiler +
I remember a pod with 5 people in white. The 5th one received no white and knew it was cut pack 1, but opened Angel of Condemnation pack 2 and decided to make the switch. Pod was a trainwreck.
Trying to make sense of what was happening during the draft, your neighbours's colours, etc. was a chore, often useless, and goodstuff drafters regularly made finding the "open" pair at one's seat a gamble.
You mentioned that a good "deck x" beat an average 5c, but for a lot of decks there being one or more 5c drafters at the table (on top of all the splashes that already happened) made the good versions of these decks less likely to come together as more pieces would be picked away from their seats.

The gameplay itself was neutered aggro + free fixing = very lenient, hard to punish misplays or mediocre builds (be it a goodstuff pile with low support, or a lot of bad filler praying for bombs). Hail Mary until someone's went unanswered were frequent (at some point the norm).

Actually, now that Ixalan is out and that people complain that it's a "high variance format" that lets "lesser skilled players beat better ones more often", it kind of puts into perspective how I felt about HOU (again, based on how it played out locally):
A shitshow of a draft format with little rhyme or reason, that encouraged greediness and resulted into high variance games, which were often decided on lucky topdecks or having that one splashed bomb + a piece of fixing in your starting hand.
Also I enjoy synergy and making goodstuff the best deck of the format shat on that.


XLN:
Initially I thought the lack of playables and kinda "on rails" drafting with your tribe being dictated by your seat gave you very little agency, and removed a lot of the small hedges you could get (Vampire's Zeal doesn't wheel because it's actually a high pick now; at the start of the format it didn't wheel because pirate drafters cut it over Spell Pierce/Duress/Demolish packs).
You still have very little agency in your colours, and we're in another "play gas on turns 2-3 or lose" format, but I like that this one embraces tempo and gives tool for it (notably with all the bounce, treasures for multi-spells turns, and the cheap tricks), and a different approach to control decks (GW dinos is basically control in this format).
Blue looks like a very interesting colour, and the fact that it's virtually never open in our local meta certainly colours my view. It's been awhile since we've had a grindy deck like BW vampires too (I'd say BW fabricate in KLD, zombies in AKH could be it but as a second thought) and it brings diversity to a mostly aggro/tempo-driven format. On the other hand Green is very shallow and that limits the number of good archetypes.
With regards to heuristics, I think it's less that the new formats make us use different ones, and more that our "norms" haven't evolved with the game and became obsolete. XLN doesn't challenge mine as much because after KLD and AKH did, I half came to expect that from new formats and now it's just "the usual."
Objectively, these norms are more punishing than the old ones though, and I acknowledged the similarities between AKH heuristics and XLN's when I said it's a bad format for beginners.
I also expected more synergy stuff from a set advertised as tribal: dinos' are just stat boosts, vampires' show more in draft priorities and deck building than actual gameplay (I like watching my pieces come together but really they don't add more decisions for me), I haven't had a chance to draft Merfolk yet and pirates' are mostly at uncommon+ (they have plenty of synergies but few tribal ones). And people keep drafting blue dammit :f
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 19:54:20
October 26 2017 19:49 GMT
#35537
One of these days Alaric I will convince you to draft so that Yango and I can see what it is the hell you do

Can you get your store to stream or record a draft or something? That seems somehow more reasonable than to ask you to try drafting once on mtgo which you seem pretty hellbent against
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 26 2017 20:00 GMT
#35538
Lets be real Wave, you're enough in the positive on MtGO at this point that you could actually let Alaric backseat draft for you once and still be fine even if he trainwrecks your draft.
Moderator
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 20:09:52
October 26 2017 20:06 GMT
#35539
On October 27 2017 05:00 TheYango wrote:
Lets be real Wave, you're enough in the positive on MtGO at this point that you could actually let Alaric backseat draft for you once and still be fine even if he trainwrecks your draft.

You know, that's not the WORST idea. I mean I'd have to decide if throwing away 10+$ is worth maybe getting to the bottom of everything that is Alaric.

Maybe we see how innistrad goes this week?

It would be kind of annoying to be the one playing though if I want to sit back and comment later. Maybe I just lend him my account info?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
October 26 2017 21:16 GMT
#35540
Just signed off on the technical side paperwork on a four party deal that utilizing 4 separate currencies... the sound of the gong is still making my ears ring.

The next 6 months will be interesting. I don't really stick my neck into the business side of things but I can't help but imagine that there ought to be a simpler way to handle things.
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