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On September 15 2013 04:41 Flakes wrote:
I mean jungle Leona isn't that different from Nautilus, right? High cc/utility, low damage, builds tank/cdr/support items
*flame shield on*
Pretty much. Also with mobility boots, zooming down the lane with that long range engage is pretty terror, though that could honestly be J4 or Lee or pretty much any jungler at that point. Mobo boot lane ganks are terror ;(
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So about my last game as Zed. Neo asked me why I was trolling so I guess I should kind of explain why I did what I did.
At some point (the 2v2 top) I noticed that Gragas can ult me whenever he wanted. We didn't seem to have enough threats to justify him using his ult on anyone but me. I felt like I wouldn't accomplish anything in team fights because Gragas and Vlad could just AoE me down while peeling, so I tried to avoid them and split push.
But my split push was retarded because:
1. You guys had vision everywhere.
2. Blitz and Udyr run stupid fast.
3. You guys could initiate fights 5v4 any time with Blitz+Gragas.
So I just ended up running around everywhere trying to delay the game hoping we could eventually farm up to 6 items.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On September 15 2013 04:57 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 04:41 Flakes wrote:
I mean jungle Leona isn't that different from Nautilus, right? High cc/utility, low damage, builds tank/cdr/support items
*flame shield on* triforce leona can actually dish it out pretty well, and if you add zekes on top of that it's really not that bad given the amount of hard cc and tankyness she also brings. Not that I know anything, I'm B1 and jungle leona works because her ult is like a massive homing beacon to show your otherwise uncoordinated team where to focus, hit the enemy carry -> gg.
No, she can't, because you won't get triforce until like 28 minutes into the game because her waveclear is pretty pathetic, although not as pathetic as her jungling is.
As someone mentioned, she is kinda like Nautilus, except worse at almost every single thing.
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On September 15 2013 05:50 silencefc wrote:
So about my last game as Zed. Neo asked me why I was trolling so I guess I should kind of explain why I did what I did.
At some point (the 2v2 top) I noticed that Gragas can ult me whenever he wanted. We didn't seem to have enough threats to justify him using his ult on anyone but me. I felt like I wouldn't accomplish anything in team fights because Gragas and Vlad could just AoE me down while peeling, so I tried to avoid them and split push.
But my split push was retarded because:
1. You guys had vision everywhere.
2. Blitz and Udyr run stupid fast.
3. You guys could initiate fights 5v4 any time with Blitz+Gragas.
So I just ended up running around everywhere trying to delay the game hoping we could eventually farm up to 6 items.
I actually didn't think you were trolling (though it may have looked bad tbh) as it looked pretty obvious you were split pushing to me. However, I do think we should've tried to team fight at least once because I was actually pretty beefy already and I picked Nocturne because if I ult, malphite ults and you dive, Gragas actually has very little vision to make his ult work as a good peel depending on where we fight. We also had a comp that was pretty strong for a 5v5 but not so much for a 4v4 IMO (and definitely not for a 4v5).
Personally I think your god juke mid redeemed everything  Though there was that one time I gave you blue and you died with it immediately after ...
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I dunno I think jungle leona is really strong after seeing it in games and I feel like she does certain things better than Nautilus like gank through creeps without ulting
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Red and I talked about it pretty in depth when we were watching Roffles, and what we thought was that Leona is basically like Jarvan (or Nautilus), only worse.
She does good damage up to level 6, her clear speed is poor, she has a lot of CC, decent initiation. But unlike Jarvan she can't jump over walls, and she can't use her gapcloser just to close distance (has to hit a champion with it.) What she gets in return is a higher damage level 3 gank and more CC if everything lands perfectly. However, after that level 3 she's just not going to be as good as Jarvan.
I don't want to say that she can't jungle. She's just not an A tier jungler like Jarvan is. She's B tier.
Roffles makes it work because he is a good jungler and knows how to be at the right place at the right time, and that's more important than champion choice when jungling. But that doesn't mean Leona is some secret OP jungler. She's passable, but not great.
It's just the same as Jarvan support. It's not like Jarvan can't support, he can. But he's B tier at supporting while Leona is A tier. Leona brings more to the table in situations where you don't need to jump over walls or close long distances, and works better on zero income. Jarvan brings more to the table in situations where you do need to jump over walls, close long distances, and are getting more gold.
I remember Roffles agreeing a week ago or so that Jarvan support was not acceptable because Leona did everything better in the support role and that whoever it was shouldn't be allowed to run Jarvan support in inhouses, so realistically if Jarvan isn't banned I don't think he should be jungling Leona over Jarvan. Just my opinion though.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Disagree.
Leona has the ability to engage from long range with the ultimate. Jarvan has to go in, therefore making him a worthless support because he can't do anything without being blown up instantly if he's not tanky and has little farm.
I have reasonable clear speeds on Leona with good ganks at any level and can still be a nuisance because of how tanky I am due to actually getting some farm.
It does fine in this meta where your goal is to go buff to buff and be an ass looking for ganks. Level six you can set up and play like Amumu, looking for free doubles bot all the time when your ult is up. Leona's ult is on a super short CD too, so you can rinse and repeat really easily.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I feel like Leona has a much better chance of turning a gank bot into a doublekill than jarvan does. Jarvan can trap and kill someone if their escape is on cooldown or they don't have one, Leona's gank at 6 is a little more severe
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On September 15 2013 05:29 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 03:50 kainzero wrote:On September 15 2013 02:42 Kiett wrote:
Sorry if we were giving you a hard time. It's always just more frustrating at the exact moment when we're all sitting there dead and looking at which things we could have done better, especially the longer the game goes. I hope it didn't sound like I was placing all the blame on you, because that's far from true, and everyone made mistakes. I know my getting caught near the end was pretty retarded. It's just that it felt like a game we could have won within 20 minutes if we could have just forced fights. Your ult + eve flank was just about the only decent initiate we had, and we were really relying on you. The fact that the game started late, dragged out to 45 minutes (plus the 20 minute pause -_-) just got really annoying and frustrating, so outbursts were bound to happen. But those are not objective analyses of your play, so don't take it too seriously. Overall, you did fine, but having more confidence in your abilities is always good. For me the concern was that I would start second guessing myself in the middle of the game and throw a bad tidal wave (which did happen in some of my earlier Nami games). I also don't like arguing during a game so I defer to the higher ranked players. After the game is a different story when I can objectively look at things. I'm not really offended or mad or whatever, just trying to get better and think about the advice given to me. Also I don't like losing to StorrZerg, lol I think a lot of the ult requests were Dusty noticing fights we could take that players of lesser caliber like myself don't really notice. Overall, I think it's less about worrying about bad Nami ults and instead looking for places you can use it to make plays. Personally I actually suck with them myself because I'm more used to using it as a counter initiating tool but I thought the last nami ult catching Zyra and Katarina was definitely the game closer we were looking for. Don't take it too personally imo, I don't think anyone was actually saying you were "throwing".
I'm not taking it personally, I just felt that people were making mistakes and then blaming me, and in terms of the game and communication, it made me play just a little bit on edge. It didn't feel like people were accepting the mistakes that they were making and thus we couldn't make better calls next time.
I don't feel slighted or angry or any of that, I just think that it incorrectly placed more pressure on me and that blame was shifted to me instead of people taking responsibility for their mistakes, so it led us to make some bad calls and not fix our prior mistakes, that's all.
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you guys are crazy
if you don't think jarvan ganks are guaranteed kills then you're not playing him right
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This whole dont play B tier champs is crap. WW would be considered a "low tier jungler." But simply because he doesnt fit anywhere else in the meta people cant say anything. Leona jungle is fine. Its stronger in some situations I believe. I have heard of a diamond player that mains Veigar support. Is it trolling or does he just practice a champ well and can make it work. If we have to over analyze everything to see if its top tier. I think this is going to get ridiculous.
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On September 15 2013 08:57 tobi9999 wrote:
you guys are crazy
if you don't think jarvan ganks are guaranteed kills then you're not playing him right
A Zed can get away from J4 ganks ez pz.
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I keep forgetting how short level 1 Leona's ult is. There was one time I recall very specifically we went to set up a counter gank because we saw you burn your ult bot like 40-50 seconds earlier and then you ulted again. We were all "WTF?". Didn't go well =(
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To be completely frank I think that Leona is stronger in the jungle than Nautilus is straight up. Her ult is way stronger than Nautilus' ult is at basically every point and their clears are about the same. She's definitely better at fighting in/near creeps than Nautilus and she can initiate over walls/from a distance. Arguably she's more vulnerable to counterjungling and has weaker escapes but I don't think she's bad.
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On September 15 2013 08:57 tobi9999 wrote:
you guys are crazy
if you don't think jarvan ganks are guaranteed kills then you're not playing him right
Vayne would like a word with you
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Vayne is just a bullshit anti Jarvan champ since she can Tumble out of Cataclysm and knock him away in the middle of his gapcloser if she times Condemn right. It's dumb.
I would be perfectly fine with a Tumble change that made her unable to Tumble out of Cataclysm. Do it in the same patch where they make it so Jarvan can't pull to his flag while snared.
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On September 15 2013 07:04 Roffles wrote:
rinse and repeat really easily.
This is. so frustrating. Like even when im like "theres leona again" and totally 100% aware of it, its still hard to deal with.
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On September 15 2013 09:32 Ketara wrote:
Vayne is just a bullshit anti Jarvan champ since she can Tumble out of Cataclysm and knock him away in the middle of his gapcloser if she times Condemn right. It's dumb.
I would be perfectly fine with a Tumble change that made her unable to Tumble out of Cataclysm. Do it in the same patch where they make it so Jarvan can't pull to his flag while snared.
Well J4 ult is coded as minions. I don't think they have a way to code it as temporary terrain without changing the engine.
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On September 15 2013 09:25 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
To be completely frank I think that Leona is stronger in the jungle than Nautilus is straight up. Her ult is way stronger than Nautilus' ult is at basically every point and their clears are about the same. She's definitely better at fighting in/near creeps than Nautilus and she can initiate over walls/from a distance. Arguably she's more vulnerable to counterjungling and has weaker escapes but I don't think she's bad.
You really need a team of strong duelers to counter jungle Leona. I recall the game Roffles picked Leona, I could never find the opening to counterjungle her because of how damn tanky she is and that she can lock you up forever for her team to collapse on you. Lee Sin, Udyr and such can probably do it but I couldn't do it with Eve without mid/bot lane winning hard because leona team fights better at lvl 3 than Eve does.
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On September 15 2013 09:26 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 08:57 tobi9999 wrote:
you guys are crazy
if you don't think jarvan ganks are guaranteed kills then you're not playing him right Vayne would like a word with you
if you've ever seen me play Jarvan in inhouses I don't even need eq or ulti to get kills, i can go 10+ - 0 by just walking up to people and bursting them with abilities at point blank range.
if the enemy ever gets low in lane or is too far from their tower you just can't mess it up.
lets not talk zed or vayne, i ganked atrioc playing fizz (who took flash and can literally walk through j4 ult without doing anything) in mid lane and got like 6 kills off him in under 20 minutes.
edit: Jarvan is simply OP, and strictly better than a lot of junglers hence why he's picked so much competitively
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