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China6330 Posts
 World Team League/2024/SummerStreams SCBoy WardiTV | SteadfastSC | RotterdaM | CranKy Ducklings Legendk |  IntoTheiNu | Crank
BracketSC: Evo Showmatches
Match-upFriday, Aug 30 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)Match 1PsiStorm x NaVi vs Platinum Heroes x R8 Match 2Team Liquid vs Match 1 Winner Saturday, Aug 31 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)Match 3Shopify Rebellion vs Match 2 Winner Match 4Weibo Gaming vs Match 3 Winner Sunday, Sep 01 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)Match 5Basilisk vs Match 4 Winner Grand FinalTeam Vitality vs Match 5 Winner
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United States33586 Posts
hoping for the the maxpax god-run to create maximum chaos in the SC2 scene
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According to Aligulac, Gerald is my nemesis, so I'm going to have to root against him!!!
Just kidding, I'm not really rooting for any team in particular. I just want to see some good games!
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
Proper slugfest games from Gerald and Kelazhur
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Nicoract deciding that his SCVs can defend themselves from Stalker harassment and sending his whole army across the map to counter-attack was really decisive play.
EDIT:
MaxPax makes a frankly ridiculous hold because of course he does!
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Canada8989 Posts
Ouff MaxPax schooled Goblin
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On August 30 2024 22:14 Nakajin wrote:
Ouff MaxPax schooled Goblin
... and he's going to get a chance to do it again.
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Canada8989 Posts
On August 30 2024 22:25 MJG wrote:... and he's going to get a chance to do it again.
And he did! (In a better game tbh)
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The predictions for TL vs. PSISTORM are pretty evenly split.
I think it's going to come down to an ESL EU Weekly final ace match between MaxPax and Clem.
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Canada8989 Posts
Dogo clearly dosen't belive the Clem hangover will be a thing. No doubt in his pick.
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Spirit is playing really sloppy. Siege your tanks!
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Top Protoss refuse to mix in Storm in PvT is just killing me, especially against larger Viking/Libs count.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
Clem didn't look great against Spirit but ooh la la he brought it for MaxPax
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30k vs 62k resources lost in Clem vs Maxpax
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United States33586 Posts
Casual 19 game winning streak across all competitions for Clem
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
Easy series for Clem vs Psistorm Navi
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Shopify desperately hoping Clems tvt not currently like his tvp tvz lol. 7-0 hero/maxpax and 8-0 serral
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Liquid terrans in the summertime, man. Hell of a thing.
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China6330 Posts
If I have a penny each time a newly crowned Terran world champion led his team through a tear in WTL playoffs, I'd have two pennies. It's not much, but it's also not weird this is happening again.
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Byun first? Very surprising to me - now Cure and Skillous can try and snipe him and then Clem is unstoppable...
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On August 31 2024 20:25 VladSlymor wrote:
Byun first? Very surprising to me - now Cure and Skillous can try and snipe him and then Clem is unstoppable...
yea idk about this
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China6330 Posts
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SR always fall short in the playoff because they dont have the top level talent outside of Byun, should try to get Rogue next season.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On August 31 2024 22:55 tigera6 wrote:
SR always fall short in the playoff because they dont have the top level talent outside of Byun, should try to get Rogue next season.
I guess the format tends to necessitate the flip where teams with super aces really get an advantage at this stage of the competition.
Assuming Rogue returns to being something like his old self of course. I quite like a bunch of reasonably balanced teams then really stacked one, or ones where a super ace can hard carry
Incidentally does the Chinese client have different music or is that just a choice of the broadcaster?
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Canada8989 Posts
Booo no fun allowed 
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On August 31 2024 22:33 digmouse wrote:
This kid is invincible.
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Canada8989 Posts
HerO over Olivera on the revive is certainly a choice.
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Cant wait to See If we get a repeat of clem being invincible until He faces ryung.
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Canada8989 Posts
Man, Clem will all kill every team all by himself, isn't he? What a monster.
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On September 01 2024 00:47 Nakajin wrote:
HerO over Olivera on the revive is certainly a choice.
and Shopify opened with Byun for some reason, both feel like bad choices
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Since his loss vs Reynor on Oceanborn, Clem is on a casual 28-0 streak.
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Reynor’s form will be crucial. He matches well with Clem, but he has been all over the place in recent months.
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Both SR and Weibo sending out their best player against Clem first to get sniped early is completely clueless. I can understand SR case because Cure might just sweep through their entire lineup minus Byun anyway, but Weibo must know their best player against Clem is Oliveira, right? Send herO out first so that he can clean up as many as he can, and have Oliveira against Clem would be the best choice.
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While I don't really want Vitality to threepeat, I can't deny it would be hilarious if Clem rampages through the entire world only to get stopped by Ryung again.
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Inb4 Clem stomps Reynor, Serral, Maru & Solar only to get sniped by Ryung.
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And Ryung gets the playoff MVP award right after of course 
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I really don't like using Cure first here
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On September 01 2024 20:27 Die4Ever wrote:
I really don't like using Cure first here
First map of the next bo2 is Ghost River, so Liquid probably wanted Clem vs one of the Basilisk Zergs there and Cure is a sacrifice.
At the same time, sending out Elazer and rolling the dice in ZvZ would work just as well. I like Elazer's odds of stealing a map off Serral more than Cure's. (Or if Elazer isn't available send a pure sacrifice like Skillous)
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Cure would be ok against Reynor. 1-1 is doable.
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China6330 Posts
Huge huge picking from Cure.
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On September 01 2024 20:27 Die4Ever wrote:
I really don't like using Cure first here
I like it
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On September 01 2024 21:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 20:27 Die4Ever wrote:
I really don't like using Cure first here I like it
well I like it now I guess lol
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Canada8989 Posts
Serral already out, I have to imagine Skillous-Showtime next, but we'll see.
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Hopefully 1-1 Reynor is not playing 😛
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Showtime will take a map from Clem if they play.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
big pressure on Showtime to find a map after that first series
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Canada8989 Posts
Clem as the world champ aura now, Showtime was too hesitant to push his lead.
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Clem had no business winning this game, wow
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On September 01 2024 21:29 Nakajin wrote:
Clem as the world champ aura now, Showtime was too hesitant to push his lead.
Swhowtime has always needed s personal MC to just tell him: kill-time!
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On September 01 2024 21:35 HeroSandro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 21:29 Nakajin wrote:
Clem as the world champ aura now, Showtime was too hesitant to push his lead. Swhowtime has always needed s personal MC to just yesl him: kill-time!
Pretty much He Had some more aggression some time this year when He did Well i think but has lost it again.
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On September 01 2024 21:29 Nakajin wrote:
Clem as the world champ aura now, Showtime was too hesitant to push his lead.
This is Showtime we're talking about 
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On September 01 2024 21:38 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 21:29 Nakajin wrote:
Clem as the world champ aura now, Showtime was too hesitant to push his lead. This is Showtime we're talking about
Sad Thing is that there Just isnt a good lategame Style vs a Terran Like clem and showtimes Style is about getting to the lategame :/
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Spirit and Showtime are kinda similar players. Really good macro-players, but not hood enough to take down the very best. Showtime should have kept up the momentum. Longer the game, worst it gets. Still wp from Showtime.
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Least Comeback Potential Race vs Most Comeback Potential Race still clem obv better Here.
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Showtime really had a good chance to take this. Some hesitancy and bad excetution really cost him.
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Can protoss have a good Backbone unit that doesnt Just get invalidated by Ghost Viking?
Edit: the disruptor is Not a Backbone unit and i would trade it in instantly.
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Whatever the result i Love reynor for giving us muta Ling Bling again.
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Reynor really is the only one matching clems Speed it feels Like.
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Canada8989 Posts
The streak is over, long live the streak!
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What a great game. Well played to both Reynor and Clem.
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great game! i was missing muta ling bane
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Finally, the streak has been broken. Look likes the budget Serral is till daunting player for Clem to play with.
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Hahaha, Reynor! Fun series.
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I loved to see Clem's rage face when he lost the streak. It must be so meaningful that he felt so frustrated.
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Get one map, Skillious! Otherwise Clem cannot be revived.
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On September 01 2024 22:48 swarminfestor wrote:
Get one map, Skillious! Otherwise Clem cannot be revived.
Why? Basilisk is going to revive Reynor anyway
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I have a hard time understanding this format - why did Clem stay on but not Serral after 1-1 in the first match?
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On September 01 2024 22:52 Miles_Edgeworth wrote:
I have a hard time understanding this format - why did Clem stay on but not Serral after 1-1 in the first match?
You stay alive if you win 2:0
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So cheesy. I hope Basilisk lose the finals to Vitality
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Reviving Clem for revenge or getting Cure instead?
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On September 01 2024 22:52 Miles_Edgeworth wrote:
I have a hard time understanding this format - why did Clem stay on but not Serral after 1-1 in the first match?
The WTL is best explained around the "losing condition". Your team loses if you lose four "lifes" (three players + revive). If your player loses 0-2, one life is lost. If your player ties 1-1, both sides lose a life.
Or in easier terms: To stay on, you need to win 2-0
They will probably revive Clem, since he has the best shot at 4-0ing or atleast 3-1ing Reynor. Ace-Map is Ghost River, so that helps for Cure vs. Serral
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On September 01 2024 23:06 swarminfestor wrote:
Reviving Clem for revenge or getting Cure instead?
No way in hell you get Cure to play against 2 top Zerg in a row. He did his job in taking down Serral once, now Clem has to carry the rest.
Edit: Reynor job is to beat Clem once in the next 4 maps as I assume Basilisk will revive him.
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On September 01 2024 23:10 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 23:06 swarminfestor wrote:
Reviving Clem for revenge or getting Cure instead? No way in hell you get Cure to play against 2 top Zerg in a row. He did his job in taking down Serral once, now Clem has to carry the rest. Edit: Reynor job is to beat Clem once in the next 4 maps as I assume Basilisk will revive him.
I thought ace match was best of 1? So Clem has to win 3 maps in a row for TL to advance afaik.
Edit: Oh I'm wrong, forgot that Basilisk still hasn't revived a player.
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On September 01 2024 23:13 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 23:10 tigera6 wrote:On September 01 2024 23:06 swarminfestor wrote:
Reviving Clem for revenge or getting Cure instead? No way in hell you get Cure to play against 2 top Zerg in a row. He did his job in taking down Serral once, now Clem has to carry the rest. Edit: Reynor job is to beat Clem once in the next 4 maps as I assume Basilisk will revive him. I thought ace match was best of 1? So Clem has to win 3 maps in a row for TL to advance afaik.
Clem has to win all 4 maps imo, as I doubt TL can win the Ace match against Serral without Clem. Cure aint going to pull out another proxy build like he did.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 01 2024 23:13 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 23:10 tigera6 wrote:On September 01 2024 23:06 swarminfestor wrote:
Reviving Clem for revenge or getting Cure instead? No way in hell you get Cure to play against 2 top Zerg in a row. He did his job in taking down Serral once, now Clem has to carry the rest. Edit: Reynor job is to beat Clem once in the next 4 maps as I assume Basilisk will revive him. I thought ace match was best of 1? So Clem has to win 3 maps in a row for TL to advance afaik. Edit: Oh I'm wrong, forgot that Basilisk still hasn't revived a player.
If Clem loses a map in the first BO2 it's over, but if he loses a map in the second BO2 they go to the ace.
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Canada8989 Posts
That's how Clem loses!?!? Wtf was he thinking lol.
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On September 01 2024 23:18 Nakajin wrote:
That's how Clem loses!?!? Wtf was he thinking lol.
Idk why but it felt Like the First loss vs reynor sent him on tilt (which is weird imo 1 loss shouldnt tilt you Like that).
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 01 2024 23:19 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 23:18 Nakajin wrote:
That's how Clem loses!?!? Wtf was he thinking lol. Idk why but it felt Like the First loss vs reynor sent him on tilt (which is weird imo 1 loss shouldnt tilt you Like that).
He might still win tbh, but still, seeing those drones and not reacting was a real brain fart moment.
Edit: Lol, ok Clem if you can do that, who cares I guess.
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On September 01 2024 23:15 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 23:13 EquilasH wrote:On September 01 2024 23:10 tigera6 wrote:On September 01 2024 23:06 swarminfestor wrote:
Reviving Clem for revenge or getting Cure instead? No way in hell you get Cure to play against 2 top Zerg in a row. He did his job in taking down Serral once, now Clem has to carry the rest. Edit: Reynor job is to beat Clem once in the next 4 maps as I assume Basilisk will revive him. I thought ace match was best of 1? So Clem has to win 3 maps in a row for TL to advance afaik. Clem has to win all 4 maps imo, as I doubt TL can win the Ace match against Serral without Clem. Cure aint going to pull out another proxy build like he did.
Yeah, I have a hard time seeing TL win the ace match without Clem.
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Clown-Reynor is the best Reynor 😛
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Reynor living up to his 50/50 name.
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Reviving Reynor is better than reviving Serral against Clem. But, Reynor should should change gameplay a bit.
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Bad thing about the playoffs is that not many players actually play in the playoffs.
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Clem looked unpolished against LingbaneMuta, picking too many fight at the same time against the better mobility Zerg army.
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Reeeeeeeeynor! gg. Happy to see muta/bling/ling in action.
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Being able to pick Crimson Court in every match must feel good as terran (70% winrate in tvz)
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Canada8989 Posts
50/50 addiction is not a joke. If you or someone you know suffers from 50/50 addiction, call 1-800-RORO today.
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So, Basilisk will send Serral for ace match?
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Canada8989 Posts
It feels like Covid, having Korean play until 4 AM
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On September 02 2024 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
It feels like Covid, having Korean play until 4 AM
Send Solar for the first game against any of Serral or Cure.
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Was the final day always this long? Or is it because of the TvZ?
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 02 2024 01:12 tigera6 wrote:
Was the final day always this long? Or is it because of the TvZ?
The tvz were long, but playoff matches can go on for an eternity or end fairly quick, there's a lot of variances. Last season was also crazy long.
They should do 1 series a day, I expect a lot of the Chinese audience won't watch the grand final, it's already past 1 AM.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 02 2024 01:22 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 01:12 tigera6 wrote:
Was the final day always this long? Or is it because of the TvZ? The tvz were long, but playoff matches can go on for an eternity or end fairly quick, there's a lot of variances. Last season was also crazy long. They should do 1 series a day, I expect a lot of the Chinese audience won't watch the grand final, it's already past 1 AM.
It’s a tricky one. 1 for me kinda spreads it thin, there is something to be said for getting the popcorn out and one’s investment builds.
But alternatively you can end up with a gauntlet that’s a huge time commitment to sit through, or overruns into bad hours for various locales
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On September 02 2024 01:22 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 01:12 tigera6 wrote:
Was the final day always this long? Or is it because of the TvZ? The tvz were long, but playoff matches can go on for an eternity or end fairly quick, there's a lot of variances. Last season was also crazy long. They should do 1 series a day, I expect a lot of the Chinese audience won't watch the grand final, it's already past 1 AM.
We don't have summer time here, we are just past 1am now
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Maru is a weird choice, he's definitely capable of taking a map off of Serral but saving him for Reynor seems much wiser? Especially when Crimson court is the 1st map of the 3rd bo3
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 02 2024 02:22 dysenterymd wrote:
Maru is a weird choice, he's definitely capable of taking a map off of Serral but saving him for Reynor seems much wiser?
Maybe Maru feels confident against Serral? After all, he might be an idiot.
But, I guess he just isn't a fan of Crimson Court.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 02 2024 02:22 dysenterymd wrote:
Maru is a weird choice, he's definitely capable of taking a map off of Serral but saving him for Reynor seems much wiser? Especially when Crimson court is the 1st map of the 3rd bo3
He’s gotta break the streak sometime I suppose!
I suppose unlike other teams running the gauntlet they’ve got a little extra time to strategise a fiendish plan or two, interested to see how it goes
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maru still doing the classic of: i wont do anything really and then just die.
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Maru keep playing the same old shit of macro up to 4-5 bases and large worker count is getting boring.
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Fun prediction: TL vs. BASILISK was an exciting and hard-fought clan war, and now Serral just rolls through in the grand final.
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Idk im starting to dread serral vs maru at this point, it usually aint even a good series anymore.
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China6330 Posts
Serral is just toying with him at this point.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
Does anyone have a theory why I’ve seen more Mutas in high level TvZ in the last couple of days versus the last 6 months?
Genuinely curious!
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Why did Ryung look better against Serral than Maru?
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On September 02 2024 02:46 darklycid wrote:
Idk im starting to dread serral vs maru at this point, it usually aint even a good series anymore.
Game 2 was brutal even by the standards of Serral vs. Maru.
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On September 02 2024 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:
Why did Ryung look better against Serral than Maru?
Eh, I think that's sort of an illusion. Serral felt no sense of urgency to kill Ryung so it was a long game that looked deceptively close at times. Against Maru Serral does have urgency (he can still lose the super late game), so he piles on the pressure.
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The saddest Thing is that Maru never seems to have prepared anything for serral at all at any of the Times they Played. Just Always the Same stuff into dying.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
As per my muta question, I wonder if Reynor and Serral have been workshopping in prep for this, in a way they obviously couldn’t being direct competitors for EWC?
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It really is a bit concerning that there was zero fightback from Maru. He basically surrendered in the loading screen, from there it was just two ten+ minutes death animations
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This has been Maru of the past few years. So much is made of match preparation but he clearly doesn't do his homework the way that other top players do.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem
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On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem
I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins.
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On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem
Maru plays a style that Serral is more than comfortable to destroy every time. Clem is the opposite of Maru. Not sure if Maru has any believe in himself against Serral at this point.
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On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins.
Well explained.
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Well this is boring. On the bright side the koreans can go to sleep since it's already 3am there
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Yea this final is shit, but was to be expected as the semis were a banger.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins.
Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure
The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while
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I miss proleague and GSTL... even ATC was alright
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On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while
At this point I think Serral is just in Marus head, there's no way this is the best he's capable of in the matchup.
In general, Maru seems like a player with a rather weak mindset who tilts easily if he isn't confident, as we have seen time and time again against sOs, Rogue, Oliveira and others
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Both Solar and Maru didnt look great in the EWC, so its not that shocking to see how their form continues.
As for the question of Maru vs Serral, Maru TvZ has taken a hit lately, thats not just against Serral but also against Dark and he didnt look dominant against lesser Zerg neither. Soo could have beaten him in GSL recently as well iirc. He seems to be playing the "campaign" mode where he will do the exact same thing over and over, with little variation and just trying to win the game in one-way. Meanwhile Serral can just throw whatever he want against Maru because he knew Maru aint changing his own plan, down to the timing and build order.
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On September 02 2024 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while At this point I think Serral is just in Marus head, there's no way this is the best he's capable of in the matchup. In general, Maru seems like a player with a rather weak mindset who tilts easily if he isn't confident, as we have seen time and time again against sOs, Rogue and others
Yeah there's definitely a mental component too. Serral matches up well with Maru stylistically, but Serral being 13-1 vs Maru from Katowice onwards is just insane and doesn't really reflect how their series "should" go.
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this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format
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On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while
To add another point, I think Serral and Clem are in a constant cycle of developing their matchup against each other. Clem had the upper hand at the end of 2023, then Serral reworked his ZvT and was ahead the first half of 2024, and now Clem has the answer to Serral's current style once again.
But in Serral vs. Maru, it's only Serral who is evolving.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 02 2024 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while At this point I think Serral is just in Marus head, there's no way this is the best he's capable of in the matchup. In general, Maru seems like a player with a rather weak mindset who tilts easily if he isn't confident, as we have seen time and time again against sOs, Rogue, Oliveira and others
I dunno if his mindset is weak, he’s pulled a lot out of the fire over the years too.
I think he has tended to succeed at this level simply by being better at StarCraft than other players. When he isn’t, maybe he struggles to figure it out
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On September 02 2024 03:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while At this point I think Serral is just in Marus head, there's no way this is the best he's capable of in the matchup. In general, Maru seems like a player with a rather weak mindset who tilts easily if he isn't confident, as we have seen time and time again against sOs, Rogue, Oliveira and others I dunno if his mindset is weak, he’s pulled a lot out of the fire over the years too. I think he has tended to succeed at this level simply by being better at StarCraft than other players. When he isn’t, maybe he struggles to figure it out
I'm a huge Maru fan but he's had more mental collapses than any other player at the top of sc2.
Maybe calling his mentality "weak" is too harsh but it's definitely the #1 factor holding him back imo.
In terms of skill he's second to none bar maybe Serral, that's why he has still been able to win so many tournaments
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On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while
I mean, it's pretty clear if you actually watch the games...
Maru does literally the same exact builds 5-6 times in a row. Serral doesn't even have to scout particularly well, he just needs to identify how soon he needs to go hive
90% of the time it's 3cc hellion banshee then early 4th base 2nd factory
10% of the time when he tries something "different", it's just a straight up 8 rax and die just after 2-2...
There's no in between, even if it's suboptimal or off meta
No consideration of hitting an awkward timing or going for a different all-in once in a while
Serral just figure out which one of the two things he is doing, and then he knows how many drones to build and how to cut corners. So he builds a lead for himself just off that, and the late game needs to be obscenely lopsided for maru to even stand a chance e.g. when serral took 20 bad trades in a row and dropped a map in EWC
Cure decided to proxy 3 rax and won a map. Oliveira was messing around with some slightly different 8 rax recently and took maps. Clem has been winning maps left and right, although he is clearly just faster at this point
Maru's plans are just extremely predictable for someone like Serral, simple as that. And Maru doesn't see it within him to change his plans or to give himself a better chance of winning. I'm not saying he should do dumb hellbat marauder builds that don't work or other meme builds, but he should probably stop sentencing himself to death every single game. 10% chance of winning is better than 0%. But it looks like he just doesn't understand why players who are arguably inferior to him can win maps against serral while he is just struggling to even win one
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On September 02 2024 03:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while At this point I think Serral is just in Marus head, there's no way this is the best he's capable of in the matchup. In general, Maru seems like a player with a rather weak mindset who tilts easily if he isn't confident, as we have seen time and time again against sOs, Rogue, Oliveira and others I dunno if his mindset is weak, he’s pulled a lot out of the fire over the years too. I think he has tended to succeed at this level simply by being better at StarCraft than other players. When he isn’t, maybe he struggles to figure it out
Imo, hes just not mixing it up enough in TvZ. He hasnt played anything new outside of the most standard 3CC Bio Tank into Ghost forever. In IEM he showed a good build with the pre-nerfed Cyclone and looking good with it, could have beaten Serral if he could stop the ling run-by. But he hasnt done any Mech, Proxy, 2-3 base timing that can throw the opponent out of the rhythm.
I thought he could have something up his sleeve for the EWC but nope, just the same old build and hoping to survive into lategame.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format
Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least.
GG Basilisk and Serral!
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Holy fuck this final was depressing.
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On the bright side, we didn't need to watch any protoss dying along the way aside from showtime. That is a stark improvement
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Curious who gets playoffs MVP, I think Clem, Reynor, and Serral all have claims to it (even though Reynor "only" went 5-3 taking out Clem was vital.)
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
Serral’s pretty good at this game
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On September 02 2024 02:46 darklycid wrote:
Idk im starting to dread serral vs maru at this point, it usually aint even a good series anymore.
Maru was never a rival to Serral. Serral has been dominating Maru for years now. It’s all hype with no real substance
Serral true rivals has always been reynor and Clem.
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On September 02 2024 03:25 dysenterymd wrote:
Curious who gets playoffs MVP, I think Clem, Reynor, and Serral all have claims to it (even though Reynor "only" went 5-3 taking out Clem was vital.)
Based on last year, it seems to be heavily driven by the final match so I'd guess Serral. Though personally I fully agree that Clem and Reynor have a strong claim.
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On September 02 2024 03:18 sudete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:05 WombaT wrote:On September 02 2024 03:01 dysenterymd wrote:On September 02 2024 02:58 WombaT wrote:
It’s really odd. Despite Clem’s recent god mode I still think over a pretty long span Maru’s been the clear #2 player
Serral can struggle the odd time against players clearly worse than Maru in the matchup, Maru usually beats other Zergs, Clem isn’t a lock against worse Zergs
But Maru seemingly can’t lay a glove on Serral, who very recently can’t lay a glove on Clem I don't think it's that odd. Serral has the best decision making/reactions in the business, but isn't the absolute fastest player in the world. So Clem can outplay Serral in a way that Clem can't outplay Reynor, while Reynor's somewhat worse decision making has him headbutt into Maru while Serral picks his fights well and wins. Aye that makes sense in terms of relative H2Hs for sure The curiosity for me isn’t that Maru has a bad record, he seemingly can’t beat Serral at all for the last wee while I mean, it's pretty clear if you actually watch the games... Maru does literally the same exact builds 5-6 times in a row. Serral doesn't even have to scout particularly well, he just needs to identify how soon he needs to go hive 90% of the time it's 3cc hellion banshee then early 4th base 2nd factory 10% of the time when he tries something "different", it's just a straight up 8 rax and die just after 2-2... There's no in between, even if it's suboptimal or off meta No consideration of hitting an awkward timing or going for a different all-in once in a while Serral just figure out which one of the two things he is doing, and then he knows how many drones to build and how to cut corners. So he builds a lead for himself just off that, and the late game needs to be obscenely lopsided for maru to even stand a chance e.g. when serral took 20 bad trades in a row and dropped a map in EWC Cure decided to proxy 3 rax and won a map. Oliveira was messing around with some slightly different 8 rax recently and took maps. Clem has been winning maps left and right, although he is clearly just faster at this point Maru's plans are just extremely predictable for someone like Serral, simple as that. And Maru doesn't see it within him to change his plans or to give himself a better chance of winning. I'm not saying he should do dumb hellbat marauder builds that don't work or other meme builds, but he should probably stop sentencing himself to death every single game. 10% chance of winning is better than 0%. But it looks like he just doesn't understand why players who are arguably inferior to him can win maps against serral while he is just struggling to even win one
Serral these days try to play a lower econ but packing a bigger punch in the army supply, and Maru style of massing out worker while going for early 4th CC and double upgrade is just terrible against that. And when I watch the replay, most of the time when Serral hit, Maru was not even at max supply, he was keeping it to transition into higher tech, and completely oblivious to the incoming hit. Like I said, the guy just plays it like a single campaign mission and not prepping at all for who he plays against. Look to me he doesnt give a damn anymore, and just try to see how far he can get while making some money.
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Reynor is the MVP. GG Basilisk!
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On September 02 2024 02:42 Antithesis wrote:
Fun prediction: TL vs. BASILISK was an exciting and hard-fought clan war, and now Serral just rolls through in the grand final.
GG to BASILISK and Serral.
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"I beat the guy who beats everyone else three times, sooo..." - Reynor
This guy :D
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Serral/Maru rivalry is a bit like Kobe/Lebron rivalry. People hyped it up when they were in their prime but they never faced off each other in that duration (except that showmatch in GvW 2018). Only difference is Kobe never got to face Lebron later on while Serral got to play against Maru when the latter has already fallen off massively.
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United States33586 Posts
On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral!
nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win.
if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it
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On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it
Sc2 doesn't have enough player depth anymore for real teamleague formats anyway
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On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it
Bo7 is a terrible format if we judge it based on GSL-finals 🙃
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Haha, Serral having to return to the barracks right after sweeping Vitality.
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On September 02 2024 03:39 Antithesis wrote:
Haha, Serral having to return to the barracks right after sweeping Vitality.
Weekend leave usually ends at 21.00. Hope he had that sorted out 😄
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Allkill is just a great format for Playoffs, because it is so frustrating to lose a Grand Final and you didn't even had the chance to play for your team. That sucks. WTL has found a good compromise with the Bo2.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 02 2024 03:38 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it Sc2 doesn't have enough player depth anymore for real teamleague formats anyway
I disagree (obviously), the WTL is a great league, it create parity. The playoff format can produce banger (like it did in the semi or last season), but it can also produce duds. I'm just affraid it is a bit too much ace-centric.
Anyway Basilisk beat Vitality in both format, so at least it's clear 
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Basilisk vs Vitsly always had a high cahnce for Serral to all-kill Vitality, because of Maru’s terrible history with Serral. I think the format is a good compromise.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 02 2024 03:50 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:38 Durnuu wrote:On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it Sc2 doesn't have enough player depth anymore for real teamleague formats anyway I disagree (obviously), the WTL is a great league, it create parity. The playoff format can produce banger (like it did in the semi or last season), but it can also produce duds. I'm just affraid it is a bit too much ace-centric. Anyway Basilisk beat Vitality in both format, so at least it's clear
I quite like it for the likes of Nation’s League, it gives a bunch of weaker nations a shot to compete on that stage.
Less so for a pro competition where one can alter their roster
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On September 02 2024 03:34 ktll4c91 wrote:
Serral/Maru rivalry is a bit like Kobe/Lebron rivalry. People hyped it up when they were in their prime but they never faced off each other in that duration (except that showmatch in GvW 2018). Only difference is Kobe never got to face Lebron later on while Serral got to play against Maru when the latter has already fallen off massively.
They played 3 times in 2018 and twice in 2020. I don't know what you consider Maru prime, but I agree that a big semi or final between the two in these years would have been much more interesting.
I really like that back and forth between Serral and Clem in the past months/years. There was really no one who challenged him consistently that much since Reynor in his peak year.
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On September 02 2024 04:25 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:34 ktll4c91 wrote:
Serral/Maru rivalry is a bit like Kobe/Lebron rivalry. People hyped it up when they were in their prime but they never faced off each other in that duration (except that showmatch in GvW 2018). Only difference is Kobe never got to face Lebron later on while Serral got to play against Maru when the latter has already fallen off massively. They played 3 times in 2018 and twice in 2020. I don't know what you consider Maru prime, but I agree that a big semi or final between the two in these years would have been much more interesting.
Like at WESG?
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 02 2024 05:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 04:25 PremoBeats wrote:On September 02 2024 03:34 ktll4c91 wrote:
Serral/Maru rivalry is a bit like Kobe/Lebron rivalry. People hyped it up when they were in their prime but they never faced off each other in that duration (except that showmatch in GvW 2018). Only difference is Kobe never got to face Lebron later on while Serral got to play against Maru when the latter has already fallen off massively. They played 3 times in 2018 and twice in 2020. I don't know what you consider Maru prime, but I agree that a big semi or final between the two in these years would have been much more interesting. Like at WESG?
How long ago was that?
I can only assume what they meant was it would have been nice to have more Maru/Serral showdowns between the period where Maru was top dog, and Serral was
I think most would echo that. Serral was still a relative newcomer as a top tier pro in 2017/18, Maru has had a longer span as a top player than anyone coming into 23/24
That they didn’t really play much between these dates is a real pity.
I’ll happily wear my Serral #1 GOAT hat any day of the week, equally I don’t think him continually smacking Maru around now after years of the two of them not meeting really is all that representative
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On September 02 2024 03:50 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:38 Durnuu wrote:On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it Sc2 doesn't have enough player depth anymore for real teamleague formats anyway I disagree (obviously), the WTL is a great league, it create parity. The playoff format can produce banger (like it did in the semi or last season), but it can also produce duds. I'm just affraid it is a bit too much ace-centric. Anyway Basilisk beat Vitality in both format, so at least it's clear
I didn't mean it as a jab to WTL's format, although I can see why it reads that way.
All I meant is by "real teamleague format" are the old Proleague bo7 format, with 6 different players on each team, and ace players only getting to play two bo1 at most. That took team depth that just doesn't exist and can't exist anymore. Even the lesser bo5 format still took at least 4 players.
Imagine if you had 6 players on one team, you'd get almost half of code S players
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On September 02 2024 05:53 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:50 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:38 Durnuu wrote:On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it Sc2 doesn't have enough player depth anymore for real teamleague formats anyway I disagree (obviously), the WTL is a great league, it create parity. The playoff format can produce banger (like it did in the semi or last season), but it can also produce duds. I'm just affraid it is a bit too much ace-centric. Anyway Basilisk beat Vitality in both format, so at least it's clear I didn't mean it as a jab to WTL's format, although I can see why it reads that way. All I meant is by "real teamleague format" are the old Proleague bo7 format, with 6 different players on each team, and ace players only getting to play two bo1 at most. That took team depth that just doesn't exist and can't exist anymore. Even the lesser bo5 format still took at least 4 players. Imagine if you had 6 players on one team, you'd get almost half of code S players
Honestly, I would love it if WTL went to the bo5 with 4 players format. With the partnership rules most teams could manage it. Vitality would need a partnership and Psistrom would probably pick up one more player, but it would absolutely be doable. WTL is great as is though, of course.
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Clem and Reynor provided the vast majority of the entertainment, while Serral provided the usual dominating streak that bores the sore losers and fanboys who hate to see him win. That's a win-win for me. Thanks to Showtime for his excellent contributions!
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On September 02 2024 03:36 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 03:22 Nakajin wrote:On September 02 2024 03:09 Die4Ever wrote:
this is the problem with the all kill format lol
I prefer a team effort like the proleague format Yeah, I'd like more of a hybrid format at least. GG Basilisk and Serral! nah this format is proven over 4 years to be a good balance between individual strength and team depth when you look at who wins and HOW they win. if ppl are all killing in this format, it's cause they really earned it
Exactly! I'd have an issue with the format if it wasn't loser-picks-next-map, but with that thrown in it really feels like you have to dominate your opponent to get any 2-0s
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United States33586 Posts
2012 Team TaeJa vs 2024 Team Clem: who wins?
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On September 03 2024 02:45 Waxangel wrote:
2012 Team TaeJa vs 2024 Team Clem: who wins?
During the summer?
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On September 03 2024 02:45 Waxangel wrote:
2012 Team TaeJa vs 2024 Team Clem: who wins?
LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe was pretty good as well
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Mm, missed this. Very interesting. Was feeling a bit cold on Serral after EWC, but damn... the final result. As if the Serral v Maru wedge couldn't be driven any deeper. o_o
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/M51IXm1.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gVa6GsI.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gCXPxa8.jpeg)
