EPTIm not a massive sc2 expert in modern days, but i think serral went for wrong builds in first 3 games, totally throwing the games when he tried to beat marine only army with ravagers. When he switched to ling/baneling strat in the later maps, the games became instantly much closer. Anyways despite being swept, kinda crazy that serral still pushes casually all the way to the finals in this type of tournament, while doing military service full time. I wonder if he is opting out for 6 months service as most people do in finland, so he should be out in a month or two i guess.
Esports World Cup 2024! - Page 72
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tankmage
2 Posts
Im not a massive sc2 expert in modern days, but i think serral went for wrong builds in first 3 games, totally throwing the games when he tried to beat marine only army with ravagers. When he switched to ling/baneling strat in the later maps, the games became instantly much closer. Anyways despite being swept, kinda crazy that serral still pushes casually all the way to the finals in this type of tournament, while doing military service full time. I wonder if he is opting out for 6 months service as most people do in finland, so he should be out in a month or two i guess. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9082 Posts
On August 19 2024 03:56 kajtarp wrote: Unfortunately the level of GSL is very far from its former self. Now with Dark starting military service aswell, even more so. Nevertheless, i'd be sad to see it's gone. Rogue is back, he can push the level up. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On August 19 2024 03:23 JJH777 wrote: If the ghost has been so OP for 4+ years why has Zerg still won the vast majority of events during that time? Many of the event wins weren't even Serral. I’d wager this is less a case of having an issue with actual balance for many, and one of ‘I don’t like how this interaction feels’. The Ghost in TvZ especially is just so damn good against basically everything, it’s reminiscent of older iterations of the infestor. One main difference is it’s only really Maru or Clem who really consistently get to those phases of the game and execute well, versus well, basically every half-decent Zerg. I think many concede that Terran need certain late game tools. Plus it’s not really a pure Ghost issue IMO. They fit into the puzzle of course. They cover some holes, who in turn cover their holes and voila. Vipers are excellent, also arguably too good against things like tanks, but they get zoned out by EMP and snipe. In turn it becomes a real gamble to even try to break a dug-in position They also come in a phase where one of their big weaknesses is pretty mitigated. When being aggressive they are vulnerable to a flank of things like crackings and especially banes getting on top of them. Except this rarely happens to the best because they have so many scans to burn. And if shit hits the fan, you may be able to cloak and escape if overseers aren’t around or get sniped. There’s also a history in SC2’s design, whether devs outright admit it or not (IiRC this is on-record) where units are absolutely designed to counter other specific units or compositions. Unless you’re very lucky, or your game is very simplistic, I think this creates a damn high chance of you ending up with some composition that counters basically anything conceivable another faction can utilise. Vipers are anti-mech units in all but name, albeit they’ve other utility. Unless they’re mispositioned, or you can zone them effectively, they don’t have a great set of counter play. Enter the Ghost, who’s an incredibly effective counter unit to that. But then, what’s the Zerg’s next shuffle of the deck? There really isn’t one in terms of compositions. You can win the eco battle of attrition and find holes where the Terran isn’t, but you’ve not got much in your toolkit to fight remotely cost-effectively. I dunno what the answer is, but it’s patently obvious that vipers are too strong against tanks, which is balanced out by Ghosts, but then those compositions become too strong. It’s the natural culmination of x unit counters y unit. To clarify, it’s less a pure balance issue as a feel issue and I’m not taking away from Clem’s win at all. I have few ideas, most of them bad :p I wonder if their anti-caster ability should be single-target rather than AoE. EMP can remain as a Protoss shield destroyer. Makes it slightly harder to wipe casters energy, but still something that is doable. I think without further balance changes elsewhere the Ghost kinda vaguely needs to do what it currently does, absolutely. | ||
hexhaven
Finland899 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
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Pandain
United States12980 Posts
On August 19 2024 04:18 hexhaven wrote: Hey this new upcoming kid Clem seems pretty good. He's not too good now but could be promising in a few years! | ||
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stilt
France2720 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On August 19 2024 03:27 Balnazza wrote: If this was a 5-4, you could make some arguments and excuses. Bracket-luck? Military service vs. Bootcamping in Korea? Balance or mappool? Luck? But with a 5-0, it is as clear as it was with Serral/Maru before: The better player just won and even as a Zerg-lover, Serral-Fan and avid Terran-hater I can more than accept that and congratulate Clem! Kind of feels like this was his destiny, coming into the scene as "the choosen one", the one player who could make trouble for Serral (when Reynor stopped being able to do that consistently). Really thought Serral had him figured out by know, but Clem truely came back with a vengence. Btw coming back: I really hope that wasn't the last hurrah and we get more. The scene has shown that we still have something to over. So lets do it again, ESL! As a little history bit: Clem might be the first player in the history of gaming (not just SC2) who technically won three titles with one final: 1)He succeeded Oliveira as the reigning World Champion of the EPT Circuit 2)He succeeded Reynor as the reigning Gamers8 Champion 3)Since the Saudis just bought up the company, he technically is also the successor to MaNa, the reigning E(S)WC Champion Interesting factoid, I’m still counting Serral winning Katowice last time out as a WC though even if it’s unofficial :p Like it was daft people still calling Oliveira the world champion after Serral won the next Katowice in extremely dominant fashion. Among many other things I dislike surrounding this admittedly fine SC2 tournament, downgrading Katowice was definitely one. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On August 19 2024 04:00 tankmage wrote: Clem deserved to win he was the best in this tourney. Also the prize money kinda is deserved for him, as he has been close to win big tourneys for long time and polishing his game slowly but surely. Im not a massive sc2 expert in modern days, but i think serral went for wrong builds in first 3 games, totally throwing the games when he tried to beat marine only army with ravagers. When he switched to ling/baneling strat in the later maps, the games became instantly much closer. Anyways despite being swept, kinda crazy that serral still pushes casually all the way to the finals in this type of tournament, while doing military service full time. I wonder if he is opting out for 6 months service as most people do in finland, so he should be out in a month or two i guess. Welcome to TL! His Roach/Rav games and his ling/bling games were reasonably equivalent IMO, apart from one. The difference is that Roach/Rav falls off faster, so you got that ‘oh shit he’s behind’ moment sooner. With ling/bling he was also keeping it even, until one second he just wasn’t, and often that tipping point just comes a bit later. One of those ‘you will die, how fast do you want it to be?’ moments | ||
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PremoBeats
246 Posts
On August 19 2024 04:19 WombaT wrote: Interesting factoid, I’m still counting Serral winning Katowice last time out as a WC though even if it’s unofficial :p Like it was daft people still calling Oliveira the world champion after Serral won the next Katowice in extremely dominant fashion. Among many other things I dislike surrounding this admittedly fine SC2 tournament, downgrading Katowice was definitely one. Yeah, I do too. The setup including all qualifiers was that of a WC and the announcement of the re-scheduling was shortly before IEM iirc. So everyone prepared for it as a WC. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15828 Posts
On August 19 2024 04:44 PremoBeats wrote: Yeah, I do too. The setup including all qualifiers was that of a WC and the announcement of the re-scheduling was shortly before IEM iirc. So everyone prepared for it as a WC. Qualifiers weren't that of a WC iirc, it had 5 seeds for winners of the regionals and GSL, while the majority (19) went through a qualifier. In a proper WC the majority of seeds are determined through the year-long standings with auto-seeds for winning specific events. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for calling every IEM Katowice a 'proper' world cup because it had everything (back then) Blizzcon also had except this specific qualifying structure. But you have to be consistent, if this years Katowice was a real world championship then the ones pre-2020 must have been real world championships too | ||
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PremoBeats
246 Posts
On August 19 2024 04:57 Charoisaur wrote: Qualifiers weren't that of a WC iirc, it had 5 seeds for winners of the regionals and GSL, while the majority (19) went through a qualifier. In a proper WC the majority of seeds are determined through the year-long standings with auto-seeds for winning specific events. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for calling every IEM Katowice a 'proper' world cup because it had everything (back then) Blizzcon also had except this specific qualifying structure. But you have to be consistent, if this years Katowice was a real world championship then the ones pre-2020 must have been real world championships too True. But isn't IEM 2018 counted as one of Rogue's WC titles anyway? I also think this year made it more obvious as the official announcement of EWC was so close to IEM (iirc early February, which means only a couple of days befoe the actual event). | ||
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geokilla
Canada8216 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On August 19 2024 05:32 geokilla wrote: Damn the celebration for the winner of IEM Cologne right now is so much more exciting than the celebration for eSports World Cup. Sad to see. It’s almost like holding an event away from traditional hotbeds doesn’t lend itself to in-venue hype. I do miss those old MLGs and early Blizzcons. Sure production wasn’t quite as polished, but you had this bleed through in the audio of the crowd going mental and I feel it really added to things. They’ve kinda isolated that out in production in recent years and I think the events suffer a little for it | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15828 Posts
On August 19 2024 05:15 PremoBeats wrote: True. But isn't IEM 2018 counted as one of Rogue's WC titles anyway? I also think this year made it more obvious as the official announcement of EWC was so close to IEM (iirc early February, which means only a couple of days befoe the actual event). you're correct for the official announcement but inofficially it was already known long before that. When the ESL season was announced they left open if IEM Katowice would be the year-end tournament and shortly after that I think 'rumors' started that the world championship would be at the Saudi tournament (rumors in quotation mark as casters, players etc had all but confirmed it). But IEM Katowice was definitely never announced to be the world championship | ||
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Locutos
Brazil248 Posts
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Perceivere
131 Posts
Kudos to Clem, nonethless. He's probably the nicest guy to have ever touched SC2, a true sweetheart. Yet, he also works extremely hard, participating in any open weekly that he can. He finally got his, and it was well deserved. That said, I honestly don't know what Serral (or any other zerg) can do heretofore against a peak-condition Clem. Probably hope for some crazy luck with BO + maps advantage, and pray they never make a significant mistake. | ||
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ZeroByte13
744 Posts
On August 19 2024 06:25 Perceivere wrote: Exactly the same was said many times about Serral when he was at his peak.That said, I honestly don't know what Serral (or any other zerg) can do heretofore against a peak-condition Clem. Probably hope for some crazy luck with BO + maps advantage, and pray they never make a significant mistake. Super-strong players at their peak make their race look unfair. Who could do anything against Oliveira on that single day when he won his WC? But it was just one day. We'll see if today's performance was one-off or a sign of new era with Clem's domination. I like Clem a lot and I'm very happy he won but I'd bet on the former. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15828 Posts
On August 19 2024 06:30 ZeroByte13 wrote: Exactly the same has been said many times about Serral when he was at his peak. Super-strong players at their peak make their race look unfair. Who could do anything against Oliveira on that single day when he won his WC? But it was just one day. We'll see if today's performance was one-off or a sign of new era with Clem's domination. I like Clem a lot and I'm very happy he won but I'd bet on the former. Exactly, after IEM Katowice people said Zerg played like that is 100% unbeatable, now it's suddenly terran. Feel like people always just remember the most recent tournament and forget everything else | ||
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