ESL Masters Spring will conclude this weekend (May 31 - June 2nd) at DreamHack Dallas! StarCraft II's top competitors will contend for the final seasonal championship of the 2023/24 EPT Circuit, and look to lock in their spots at August's EPT World Championship which will be hosted at the Esports World Cup.
Read our regionals recap for more information about how the seeded players obtained their spots.
1: Coffee declined his seed to the Winners Stage and was replaced by Nice. 2: MaxPax declined his seed to the Winners Stage and was replaced by Reynor.
Schedule and Format
Players are initially split into the Winners Stage (16 players) and Open Stage (32 players), depending on whether or not they obtained a high seed from regional competition (see player list above). Winners Stage and Open Stage results decide which players advance to the final knockout + playoff bracket, and their starting position in those brackets (while separate in name, the knockout and playoff brackets are effectively part of a single, complicated, elimination bracket*).
All 16 players from the Winners Stage advance to the knockout + playoff bracket, but their starting positions/seeding differ depending on their performance in the Winners Stage. Of the 32 Open Stage players, the top 8 players advance to the knockout + playoff bracket and start at the lowest position/seed.
For help understanding the format, check out our all-in one megachart or the ESL explainer video posted below.
Day 1 (May 31): Winners Stage + Open Stage
Start time: 15:00 GMT (+00:00)
Winners (Seeding) Stage
16 players: Top players from regional qualifiers + EPT point standings
2x eight-player double elimination brackets
Top two players from each bracket (four total) qualify directly for the RO8 playoffs
3rd-8th place players (12 total) are seeded into the knockout bracket according to their placement
Winners Stage bracket #1
Winners Stage bracket #2
Open Stage
32 players: From open sign-ups (selected in order of EPT points)
4x eight-player double elimination brackets
Top two players from each bracket (eight total) advance to the knockout bracket (seeded into lowest round of knockout bracket)
Open Stage bracket #1
Open Stage bracket #2
Open Stage bracket #3
Open Stage bracket #4
Day 2 (June 1): Knockout Stage + Playoffs RO8
Start time: 15:00 GMT (+00:00)
Knockout Stage
20 players: 12 from the Seeding Stage + 8 from the Open Stage
4x King of the hill/gauntlet style brackets
Winner of each gauntlet bracket (four total) advances to the playoffs
Gauntlet brackets seeded according to the results from day 1, with open stage winners starting at the bottom of the bracket
Some interesting choices for the talents. I thought Rachel was doing a great job and it's weird to see State and Nathanias instead of Steadfast or Catz. At the same time, I welcome the rotation of casters to give everyone opportunities.
Very excited to see the event nevertheless, let's hope also for a surprise champion! (but not a military service serral type of surprise)
On May 31 2024 06:21 Telephone wrote: I guess I decided last second that I'm going. Hope to see some great games! I wonder whether there will be any time to get player autographs.
There's official signing sessions scheduled.
There's also usually some decent opportunities to find a player between matches and ask for an autograph, as long as you're polite about it.
YES NATHANIAS IS BACK!!! TIME TO GET HIM ON THE MAIN STAGE!!!!! also very happy about state, i've really enjoyed him in GSL and it's nice to see Maru get an easy coast into the playoffs
OMG I didnt realized how PACKED this tournament is, what an amazing weekend of SC2 is starting in 7 hours.
I think Serral will dominate tho, he is free of the pressures that caused him to lost to other zergs in the past (He is a bit emotional).
Right now is like, if he does well, he does well despite of being in the military service. Huge props! If he does bad, no worries, understandable, he is doing his military service.
Btw the finish military service is quite mild no? Like he is allowed to take days off and flight to another country to compite. I mean compared with the korean military service.
On May 31 2024 16:48 Argonauta wrote: OMG I didnt realized how PACKED this tournament is, what an amazing weekend of SC2 is starting in 7 hours.
I think Serral will dominate tho, he is free of the pressures that caused him to lost to other zergs in the past (He is a bit emotional).
Right now is like, if he does well, he does well despite of being in the military service. Huge props! If he does bad, no worries, understandable, he is doing his military service.
Btw the finish military service is quite mild no? Like he is allowed to take days off and flight to another country to compite. I mean compared with the korean military service.
He is in a special unit for athletes apparently, so this is why he still can get time off for these kind of things. I assume he wouldn't be able to do that if he was in the regular service.
Those double force fields were really good for disruptors' ball to hit. Should utilize these some more when Clem kept making vikings instead of liberators.
On June 01 2024 00:20 swarminfestor wrote: Those double force fields were really good for disruptors' ball to hit. Should utilize these some more when Clem kept making vikings instead of liberators.
On June 01 2024 00:20 swarminfestor wrote: Those double force fields were really good for disruptors' ball to hit. Should utilize these some more when Clem kept making vikings instead of liberators.
it was beautiful protoss micro
Stats looked really good in g1, but not so much in g2
On June 01 2024 00:20 swarminfestor wrote: Those double force fields were really good for disruptors' ball to hit. Should utilize these some more when Clem kept making vikings instead of liberators.
it was beautiful protoss micro
Stats looked really good in g1, but not so much in g2
hoenstly he did until Clem did the maru drop on top on the colossi and it kinda snowballed.
On June 01 2024 00:20 swarminfestor wrote: Those double force fields were really good for disruptors' ball to hit. Should utilize these some more when Clem kept making vikings instead of liberators.
it was beautiful protoss micro
Stats looked really good in g1, but not so much in g2
hoenstly he did until Clem did the maru drop on top on the colossi and it kinda snowballed.
Looks like Stats should sharpen multitasking ability a bit and should warp in more pylons near the locations to detect the impeding drops
I live in Dallas. Power was out for 600,000 people earlier this week due to a massive storm taking down the power distribution lines. There were more storms yesterday, and there are going to be more this week. There is a real chance the power at the venue goes out and doesn't come back on for a day or more.
On June 01 2024 00:20 swarminfestor wrote: Those double force fields were really good for disruptors' ball to hit. Should utilize these some more when Clem kept making vikings instead of liberators.
it was beautiful protoss micro
Stats looked really good in g1, but not so much in g2
hoenstly he did until Clem did the maru drop on top on the colossi and it kinda snowballed.
Looks like Stats should sharpen multitasking ability a bit and should warp in more pylons near the locations to detect the impeding drops
True, but in the early game is hard to place buildings covering all the blind spots on the main base, and in ghost river, its a big main.
I honestly think libs are better than viking in these fights, like unsiged libs destroy interceptros and the bio can kill 2 colossi and some gateway stuff easily.
On June 01 2024 00:47 darklycid wrote: I honestly think libs are better than viking in these fights, like unsiged libs destroy interceptros and the bio can kill 2 colossi and some gateway stuff easily.
Libs are very situation dependent vs carriers. You need a LOT of them for thfm to kill interceptors efficiently and they have low range, therefore easily die to stalker/archon/storm. As a result they don't really work vs carriers when toss also has a big ground army (but are essential for zoning out the ground army). The only situation where Libs really shine is when like 80-90% of the Protoss army consists of air
On June 01 2024 00:47 darklycid wrote: I honestly think libs are better than viking in these fights, like unsiged libs destroy interceptros and the bio can kill 2 colossi and some gateway stuff easily.
Libs are very situation dependent vs carriers. You need a LOT of them for thfm to kill interceptors efficiently and they have low range, therefore easily die to stalker/archon/storm. As a result they don't really work vs carriers when toss also has a big ground army (but are essential for zoning out the ground army). The only situation where Libs really shine is when like 80-90% of the Protoss army consists of air
Hm maybe still the Fight clem took was absolutely atrocious.
On June 01 2024 00:47 darklycid wrote: I honestly think libs are better than viking in these fights, like unsiged libs destroy interceptros and the bio can kill 2 colossi and some gateway stuff easily.
Libs are very situation dependent vs carriers. You need a LOT of them for thfm to kill interceptors efficiently and they have low range, therefore easily die to stalker/archon/storm. As a result they don't really work vs carriers when toss also has a big ground army (but are essential for zoning out the ground army). The only situation where Libs really shine is when like 80-90% of the Protoss army consists of air
Hm maybe still the Fight clem took was absolutely atrocious.
Actually a lot of vikings will do. Just that Clem has not anticipated protoss transitioning to air units so fast that he can react by making a bunch of vikings instead of excessive ghosts and marauders.
On June 01 2024 00:48 tigera6 wrote: I am surprised Clem didnt see the SG transition coming. Maru would have put down extra double Starport Viking 2-3 minutes before this.
I figure it's more a matter of execution that strategy. It's an incredibly predictable style that Classic and Stats like to play on Alcyone, and Clem probably thinks he has windows to win with Ghost-Viking before critical mass Skytoss if he just executes properly.
It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Serral and Maru
More seriously, I think Maru vs Cure lately is the more baffling match-up, cause Cure is an elite TvT player anyway you cut it, but he just seems to have the dumbest mental block vs Maru that makes him throw games.
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Serral and Maru
More seriously, I think Maru vs Cure lately is the more baffling match-up, cause Cure is an elite TvT player anyway you cut it, but he just seems to have the dumbest mental block vs Maru that makes him throw games.
Maru vs Cure actually makes sense to me because I feel like Cure is just a straightforward TvT player, which Maru is always going to be better at, while other players like Gumiho/Byun will do more crazy things and therefore take some series from time to time.
Like Cure doesn't have any strengths over Maru, while Gumiho/Byun honestly do have some unique edges to their play that can lead them to a victory.
To be fair, I guess this exact logic applies to Ragnarok, because Ragnarok's unique traits (can cook up some goofy/off-brand stuff) does not apply to ZvT
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Serral and Maru
More seriously, I think Maru vs Cure lately is the more baffling match-up, cause Cure is an elite TvT player anyway you cut it, but he just seems to have the dumbest mental block vs Maru that makes him throw games.
Maru vs Cure actually makes sense to me because I feel like Cure is just a straightforward TvT player, which Maru is always going to be better at, while other players like Gumiho/Byun will do more crazy things and therefore take some series from time to time.
Like Cure doesn't have any strengths over Maru, while Gumiho/Byun honestly do have some unique edges to their play that can lead them to a victory.
Cure has the same problem against Serral: too straightforward, just not good enough to make it count.
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Honestly i think it speaks a lot about the decay of SC2 scene. SHIN has obviously improved from the days he was extremely mid, but he doesnt really have any elite player qualities.
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Honestly i think it speaks a lot about the decay of SC2 scene. SHIN has obviously improved from the days he was extremely mid, but he doesnt really have any elite player qualities.
He just knocked Serral off the IEM last year, also has taken series from top players like Dark, Reynor and Clem before. Its literally Maru is his bane of existence, I think he would rather play Serral than Maru.
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Honestly i think it speaks a lot about the decay of SC2 scene. SHIN has obviously improved from the days he was extremely mid, but he doesnt really have any elite player qualities.
He just knocked Serral off the IEM last year, also has taken series from top players like Dark, Reynor and Clem before. Its literally Maru is his bane of existence, I think he would rather play Serral than Maru.
Shin can take huge leads and then play 0-0 roaches the next 40min in ZvT. In ZvZ he is quite wild, which makes hin dangerous on a good day.
On June 01 2024 01:31 Pandain wrote: It's kind of crazy how much Maru dominates Ragnarok - especially since Ragnarok is an extremely legitimate player who regularly makes Ro8s, can make Ro4s, and made a GSL finals. Is there any other parallel in SC2 history to one very top player being absolutely smashed by another to this extent?
Honestly i think it speaks a lot about the decay of SC2 scene. SHIN has obviously improved from the days he was extremely mid, but he doesnt really have any elite player qualities.
He just knocked Serral off the IEM last year, also has taken series from top players like Dark, Reynor and Clem before. Its literally Maru is his bane of existence, I think he would rather play Serral than Maru.
Yeah he looked monstrous at last Katowice topping a group with Clem and Cure
Creator had a freewin if he sent his first two DTs into Kelazhur's natural. Instead he morphs them into an archon for a drop and gets no damage. Very masterfully shooting his own foot.
Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
Nightmares miracle run they were just referencing was all the way back in 2022 and was only possible because of the old format. Will never happen in this format.
On June 01 2024 04:57 JJH777 wrote: Nightmares miracle run they were just referencing was all the way back in 2022 and was only possible because of the old format. Will never happen in this format.
If you mean that it was even harder then (at least in # of matches played; not neccessarily the average quality of opponent in each match), then yes
The desk talks about the clashes in the winners stage as if they were definitive, they merely dictate the place within the final bracket no? Or I am missing something? Do they actually get knock out of the tournament if they lose twice?
On June 01 2024 05:07 Argonauta wrote: The desk talks about the clashes in the winners stage as if they were definitive, they merely dictate the place within the final bracket no? Or I am missing something? Do they actually get knock out of the tournament if they lose twice?
Top 2 players of each bracket (2 from UB) advance to the Playoffs Quarterfinals. Players who take 3rd-4th place in each bracket drop to the Knockout Bracket Round 3. Players who take 5th-8th place in each bracket drop to the Knockout Bracket Round 1.
On June 01 2024 05:07 Argonauta wrote: The desk talks about the clashes in the winners stage as if they were definitive, they merely dictate the place within the final bracket no? Or I am missing something? Do they actually get knock out of the tournament if they lose twice?
Top 2 players of each bracket (2 from UB) advance to the Playoffs Quarterfinals. Players who take 3rd-4th place in each bracket drop to the Knockout Bracket Round 3. Players who take 5th-8th place in each bracket drop to the Knockout Bracket Round 1.
On June 01 2024 04:57 JJH777 wrote: Nightmares miracle run they were just referencing was all the way back in 2022 and was only possible because of the old format. Will never happen in this format.
If you mean that it was even harder then (at least in # of matches played; not neccessarily the average quality of opponent in each match), then yes
Fair I misremembered Nightmares specific run. That was a really crazy run. It was only like that because he lost his initial open bracket group though, which would just be a straight up elimination in the current format, open bracket players still had a much better time back then because if you won 4 matches in the open bracket groups you were in the same exact position as the winners stage equivalent players.
On June 01 2024 06:07 tigera6 wrote: How come Solar getting from one of the best ZvZ in the world (3-0 Serral and Dark) into getting played like a fiddle by Rogue TWICE in a day.
Rogue was just better at mindgames even lacking in micromanaging and multitasking. If he played a couple of games against Elazer right after finishing military service, I think he might win the match.
On June 01 2024 06:07 tigera6 wrote: How come Solar getting from one of the best ZvZ in the world (3-0 Serral and Dark) into getting played like a fiddle by Rogue TWICE in a day.
There are two things Rogue is better at than any other SC2 player: 1) Turning a series into a poker match, 2) Winning said poker match.
I have no real hopes for his chances in any upcoming tournament, but he is built different.
Reynor needs to build 2 spores quickly like Serral does. Even if 1 spore until later is enough in theory, I feel like human error always makes it worse than just ponying up for the second spore.
On May 31 2024 06:21 Telephone wrote: I guess I decided last second that I'm going. Hope to see some great games! I wonder whether there will be any time to get player autographs.
There's official signing sessions scheduled.
There's also usually some decent opportunities to find a player between matches and ask for an autograph, as long as you're polite about it.
Whoops, I'm not going to be there until tomorrow (taking a loooong drive today on a whim), and while I will be thrilled to meet most of the players and talent, I have something GSL branded that would benefit from Maru's signature.
I would never hope to distract a player from a championship run but it would be nice if I find a chance.
On June 01 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Awww how did Stats lose 2-0 to Shin?
I really want Stats to regain his old form, and he looks so close to it sometimes, and then he doesn't.
Shin is top2 zerg in korea tho, i feel like we often underestimate how good he is
I think you could argue he is top 4 pretty easily, but to say he is consistently top 2 I don’t think has much merit.
He can finish top 4 in GSL on any given run if he is in form. He is definitely one of the best and most consistent Zergs in the world (even going out in the top 16 of GSL is better than all zergs on the planet can hope to achieve except maybe 6-7 players).
But I would not be able to make a logical argument that he is better than Rogue or Solar on a consistent basis. Definitely a higher tier than soO and DRG right now though.
On June 01 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Awww how did Stats lose 2-0 to Shin?
I really want Stats to regain his old form, and he looks so close to it sometimes, and then he doesn't.
Shin is top2 zerg in korea tho, i feel like we often underestimate how good he is
I think you could argue he is top 4 pretty easily, but to say he is consistently top 2 I don’t think has much merit.
He can finish top 4 in GSL on any given run if he is in form. He is definitely one of the best and most consistent Zergs in the world (even going out in the top 16 of GSL is better than all zergs on the planet can hope to achieve except maybe 6-7 players).
But I would not be able to make a logical argument that he is better than Rogue or Solar on a consistent basis. Definitely a higher tier than soO and DRG right now though.
I've watched a lot of herO PvZ lately, during both games in this series in around 7-9 mins mark I was thinking that I've seen herO killing all those Zergs (Dark, Reynor, Solar, Rogue etc).with the same style he played here, constant pressure, greedy expansion and impeccable micro. And he did exactly that here, not even making his usual backdoor mistake. But still Serral just made seems completely hopeless and not even fair. Damn.
On June 01 2024 07:37 Nasigil1 wrote: I've watched a lot of herO PvZ lately, during both games in this series in around 7-9 mins mark I was thinking that I've seen herO killing all those Zergs (Dark, Reynor, Solar, Rogue etc).with the same style he played here, constant pressure, greedy expansion and impeccable micro. And he did exactly that here, not even making his usual backdoor mistake. But still Serral just made seems completely hopeless. Damn.
Yeah. SC2 looks like a very different game without Serral.
On June 01 2024 07:37 Nasigil1 wrote: I've watched a lot of herO PvZ lately, during both games in this series in around 7-9 mins mark I was thinking that I've seen herO killing all those Zergs (Dark, Reynor, Solar, Rogue etc).with the same style he played here, constant pressure, greedy expansion and impeccable micro. And he did exactly that here, not even making his usual backdoor mistake. But still Serral just made seems completely hopeless and not even fair. Damn.
Serral Just didnt succumb to Classic zerg greed and tried to defend Bad positions but Just calmly went for Units and let herO kill himself.
On June 01 2024 07:37 Nasigil1 wrote: I've watched a lot of herO PvZ lately, during both games in this series in around 7-9 mins mark I was thinking that I've seen herO killing all those Zergs (Dark, Reynor, Solar, Rogue etc).with the same style he played here, constant pressure, greedy expansion and impeccable micro. And he did exactly that here, not even making his usual backdoor mistake. But still Serral just made seems completely hopeless and not even fair. Damn.
Serral Just didnt succumb to Classic zerg greed and tried to defend Bad positions but Just calmly went for Units and let herO kill himself.
Serral is also always fishing for surrounds/flanks/good engagements, especially in protracted battles against blink stalkers. He'll always have a few lings or even a bit of roach sharking around and will never fully commit unless it's 100% necessary or he has a great arc/surround.
On June 01 2024 07:37 Nasigil1 wrote: I've watched a lot of herO PvZ lately, during both games in this series in around 7-9 mins mark I was thinking that I've seen herO killing all those Zergs (Dark, Reynor, Solar, Rogue etc).with the same style he played here, constant pressure, greedy expansion and impeccable micro. And he did exactly that here, not even making his usual backdoor mistake. But still Serral just made seems completely hopeless and not even fair. Damn.
Serral Just didnt succumb to Classic zerg greed and tried to defend Bad positions but Just calmly went for Units and let herO kill himself.
He also maintained a perfect army split for multiple back and forth minutes in both games, and every time the armies moved on the map he gained space / caught reinforcements / set up a pincer. No one else moves their units like that, and without it those games look a lot closer.
On June 01 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Awww how did Stats lose 2-0 to Shin?
I really want Stats to regain his old form, and he looks so close to it sometimes, and then he doesn't.
Shin is top2 zerg in korea tho, i feel like we often underestimate how good he is
I think you could argue he is top 4 pretty easily, but to say he is consistently top 2 I don’t think has much merit.
He can finish top 4 in GSL on any given run if he is in form. He is definitely one of the best and most consistent Zergs in the world (even going out in the top 16 of GSL is better than all zergs on the planet can hope to achieve except maybe 6-7 players).
But I would not be able to make a logical argument that he is better than Rogue or Solar on a consistent basis. Definitely a higher tier than soO and DRG right now though.
Pretty sure you mean Dark and Solar.
I do not. I’m counting Dark as the clear number 1.
I’m referring to 2-4. I think a month ago Rogue was closer to soO and DRG than to Solar and SHIN. But the way he is progressing and based on his championship pedigree - you can clearly see from his games today he deserves to be in that discussion.
On June 01 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Awww how did Stats lose 2-0 to Shin?
I really want Stats to regain his old form, and he looks so close to it sometimes, and then he doesn't.
Shin is top2 zerg in korea tho, i feel like we often underestimate how good he is
I think you could argue he is top 4 pretty easily, but to say he is consistently top 2 I don’t think has much merit.
He can finish top 4 in GSL on any given run if he is in form. He is definitely one of the best and most consistent Zergs in the world (even going out in the top 16 of GSL is better than all zergs on the planet can hope to achieve except maybe 6-7 players).
But I would not be able to make a logical argument that he is better than Rogue or Solar on a consistent basis. Definitely a higher tier than soO and DRG right now though.
Pretty sure you mean Dark and Solar.
I do not. I’m counting Dark as the clear number 1.
I’m referring to 2-4. I think a month ago Rogue was closer to soO and DRG than to Solar and SHIN. But the way he is progressing and based on his championship pedigree - you can clearly see from his games today he deserves to be in that discussion.
It's hard to say. If we look at the past 1-2 years in their totality, Solar is the clear #2, but he hasn't been playing well in 2024. soO and DRG often have surprisingly good results in GSL, but very few results outside of GSL. Then SHIN has never won anything but often makes good runs.
Rogue is clearly dangerous, but I'm also not sure if he's capable of stringing together a great run right now. With his big brain and base skill he can obviously beat good players though.
On June 01 2024 09:46 swarminfestor wrote: Looks like Zerg are doing alright in this tournament.
Balance has looked good, I think in most matches the person who "should" win has won. Upsets have also gone both ways (Stats beating Clem, Oliveira advancing in first, etc.) Beyond the map ppool things really haven't changed that much for Z since last patch.
On June 01 2024 09:55 Pandain wrote: how is cure reynor still going on? I turned if off 10 minutes ago when Cure lost his 4th/5th and was down 80 supply
As we speak, Cure has 7 SCVs, but 168 army supply.
On June 01 2024 09:55 Pandain wrote: how is cure reynor still going on? I turned if off 10 minutes ago when Cure lost his 4th/5th and was down 80 supply
As we speak, Cure has 7 SCVs, but 168 army supply.
This is crazy. Cure should be so dead but if he somehow maxes out and has 50 army supply more than who knows
On June 01 2024 09:55 Pandain wrote: how is cure reynor still going on? I turned if off 10 minutes ago when Cure lost his 4th/5th and was down 80 supply
As we speak, Cure has 7 SCVs, but 168 army supply.
This is crazy. Cure should be so dead but if he somehow maxes out and has 50 army supply more than who knows
Finally gg for Reynor.
Happy for him, given his recent results. He had 10k minerals in the bank when Cure tapped out.
Reynor finally improved his late game ZvT a little bit. He knows when to pull back the punch and turtle it up a little when the situation calls for it, instead of constantly charging into siege line until bled dry like he used to. Nice to see.
On June 01 2024 10:11 Nasigil1 wrote: Reynor finally improved his late game ZvT a little bit. He knows when to pull back the punch and turtle it up a little when the situation calls for it, instead of constantly charging into siege line until bled dry like he used to. Nice to see.
Yeah, at one point I was worried the game might end in this way, when Reynor depleted his whole bank for another ling/ultra remax. Be then he did a good job of taking additional bases and switching tech appropriately.
Much love for TLO bringing over the Liquid-Curse to SR. Casually having three out of the four Shopify-player in one group, having to eliminate each other in the two final matches...
On June 01 2024 12:41 tigera6 wrote: Knockout bracket is announced on X. Clem/Rogue into Gumiho into herO is just brutal. Meanwhile Reynor and Shin got very managable bracket.
Yeah, I don't think Rogue can go to playoff unless herO is slumping very hard and Clem's TvZ just not in form. Man that is just too tough road for Rogue to qualify EWC by reaching at least a semifinal of the tournament.
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
Just watched the Serral vs. herO game, LOL what did I say about lurkers? Zerg has a way-too-powerful AOE arsenal including lurkers and infestors that can be tech-switched quickly. Put them in the hands of someone like Serral and you have armageddon for everyone else.
On June 01 2024 15:13 goldensail wrote: Just watched the Serral vs. herO game, LOL what did I say about lurkers? Zerg has a way-too-powerful AOE arsenal including lurkers and infestors that can be tech-switched quickly. Put them in the hands of someone like Serral and you have armageddon for everyone else.
I really don't think balance should enter in the conversation about hero Vs serral. For months hero has destroyed zergs not named serral (and all of them could just build infestor and lurker to win if it was that easy). If just a player can do something the problem is not balance, it's just that player very good.
On June 01 2024 15:13 goldensail wrote: Just watched the Serral vs. herO game, LOL what did I say about lurkers? Zerg has a way-too-powerful AOE arsenal including lurkers and infestors that can be tech-switched quickly. Put them in the hands of someone like Serral and you have armageddon for everyone else.
I really don't think balance should enter in the conversation about hero Vs serral. For months hero has destroyed zergs not named serral (and all of them could just build infestor and lurker to win if it was that easy). If just a player can do something the problem is not balance, it's just that player very good.
Sure it's the combination of the arsenal and the player skill that makes it lethal. Just remember with Byun's reapers and Maru's libs and ravens they did say "it's balance" and nerfed the units.
Tech superiority was the way Serral chose to play that game, while herO expanded faster than Serral and had superior eco. Serral was on a timer. His mass lurkers was a good choice though because herO was behind on tech and was mostly using gateway units with high eco.
So Reynor has a really good shot to qualify for EWC then, his bracket all the way to Oliveira are very do-able. And assuming that Maru/Dark/Serral taking care of their business, there will be 3 added spots from the global ranking.
On June 01 2024 16:58 tigera6 wrote: So Reynor has a really good shot to qualify for EWC then, his bracket all the way to Oliveira are very do-able. And assuming that Maru/Dark/Serral taking care of their business, there will be 3 added spots from the global ranking.
Pretty sure Reynor qualified even if he scored 0 points at this tournament. But him taking a direct seed would be good for his confidence.
On June 01 2024 15:13 goldensail wrote: Just watched the Serral vs. herO game, LOL what did I say about lurkers? Zerg has a way-too-powerful AOE arsenal including lurkers and infestors that can be tech-switched quickly. Put them in the hands of someone like Serral and you have armageddon for everyone else.
Serral won that game with his ridiculous army management more than anything else. Lurkers should look strong when you've been able to perfectly defend and manage the game against an opponent whose playing a lower-tech momentum style.
But hey yeah lets nerf lurkers, maybe we can get Zerg to 15% GM and have 70% protoss at the lower pro level. That could be really cool.
Really rough road for Rogue - literally any other bracket section and I think he has a real shot.
PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
On June 01 2024 03:00 JJH777 wrote: Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
I completely agree. It's actually kind of insane. It's less problematic to me that the open bracket players needing to win 3 bo3 + 3 bo5 to make ro8 than that a player can win just two bo3s and make playoffs.
Also, the choice to do only three matches on Sunday is equally bad. Should have done Ro8 onwards.
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
From my understanding it should be yeah
Could very well be a remarkably bad tournament for Protoss, again. Decent chance we don't get even one Protoss in Ro8 and then if this is the case Maru will likely bop herO.
In other news, I really thought Serral was going to take a hit with military service. Clearly not haha.
On June 01 2024 03:00 JJH777 wrote: Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
I completely agree. It's actually kind of insane. It's less problematic to me that the open bracket players needing to win 3 bo3 + 3 bo5 to make ro8 than that a player can win just two bo3s and make playoffs.
Also, the choice to do only three matches on Sunday is equally bad. Should have done Ro8 onwards.
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
From my understanding it should be yeah
Could very well be a remarkably bad tournament for Protoss, again. Decent chance we don't get even one Protoss in Ro8 and then if this is the case Maru will likely bop herO.
In other news, I really thought Serral was going to take a hit with military service. Clearly not haha.
Of course Finish military service is different from Korean military service. But looks like he may get the support or at least a relief from the government to spend hours practising for programming career instead of fully focus on military training, not like what the Koreans did, right?
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Serral's ZvP is just above everyone else. No other Zerg player can beat him in that matchup as highly confident as he was.
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Yeah think so Too its Just funny when people (i guess zergs) recently tried to yap about zvp being toss favored now and at this Event its 23-9 for zergs so far
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Yeah think so Too its Just funny when people (i guess zergs) recently tried to yap about zvp being toss favored now and at this Event its 23-9 for zergs so far
They'll just say it's serral skewing the stats (while he played one zvp) or that one tournament is too small of a sample size
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Yeah think so Too its Just funny when people (i guess zergs) recently tried to yap about zvp being toss favored now and at this Event its 23-9 for zergs so far
They'll just say it's serral skewing the stats (while he played one zvp) or that one tournament is too small of a sample size
He Played 2 zvps so He won 4 Maps, and If we Take him Out of Winner Stage zvps its at 7-7. I dont even think zvp is zerg favored rn (we'll have to wait more imo to See Trends Patch is still somewhat fresh), but when some ppl came in to declare protoss the favorite in the mu because after a Patch zerg struggled a Bit (Like they usually Always do) was quite fun.
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Yeah think so Too its Just funny when people (i guess zergs) recently tried to yap about zvp being toss favored now and at this Event its 23-9 for zergs so far
They'll just say it's serral skewing the stats (while he played one zvp) or that one tournament is too small of a sample size
I mean to be fair tournies with open brackets do tend to have a fair few mismatches as well. Or even a Katowice where some regions are clearly stronger than others.
To the eye test it’s in a better spot than some of the nadirs we’ve seen in the past anyway.
Good players can somewhat trade quite well, the best PvZer seems to win a decent chunk, and the best ZvPer beats him.
Certainly not perfect but a damn sight better than times where you’d favour the upper echelons of Zergs against basically any Toss
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Yeah think so Too its Just funny when people (i guess zergs) recently tried to yap about zvp being toss favored now and at this Event its 23-9 for zergs so far
TBF, a LOT of that is simply matchup logic. Dark stomping Trigger, Reynor and Serral stomping Nice. Rogue and Solar stomped some protoss in the total PvZvPvZ bracket. Scarlett smacked around Holden. The only obvious reverse example of that was Mixu vs Shadown, and I would generally not be anywhere near as confident about calling that in advance, and say it's balanced by Mixu stomping Zain. So that's about 8 of those matches where balance would have to be very far gone for the protoss to stand a chance. Meanwhile the zerg walkovers either got knocked out by terran or in mirrors.
On June 01 2024 03:00 JJH777 wrote: Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
I completely agree. It's actually kind of insane. It's less problematic to me that the open bracket players needing to win 3 bo3 + 3 bo5 to make ro8 than that a player can win just two bo3s and make playoffs.
Also, the choice to do only three matches on Sunday is equally bad. Should have done Ro8 onwards.
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
From my understanding it should be yeah
Could very well be a remarkably bad tournament for Protoss, again. Decent chance we don't get even one Protoss in Ro8 and then if this is the case Maru will likely bop herO.
In other news, I really thought Serral was going to take a hit with military service. Clearly not haha.
It’s a pretty brutal format, there should be some balance between circuit qualification and the open bracket that is a little less skewed.
Honestly I don’t think anyone except maybe Serral close to his best could conceivably navigate this format to win a tournament, and even then it would be a tall order.
Isn't it cool that we didn't have much balance-discussions in the last few weeks, but the second Serral is "back" suddenly Zerg is OP again? Fascinating
On June 01 2024 22:00 Balnazza wrote: Isn't it cool that we didn't have much balance-discussions in the last few weeks, but the second Serral is "back" suddenly Zerg is OP again? Fascinating
Either that or TvP still Terran favored, considering we might have only 1 Protoss end up in the Ro8.
On June 01 2024 03:00 JJH777 wrote: Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
I completely agree. It's actually kind of insane. It's less problematic to me that the open bracket players needing to win 3 bo3 + 3 bo5 to make ro8 than that a player can win just two bo3s and make playoffs.
Also, the choice to do only three matches on Sunday is equally bad. Should have done Ro8 onwards.
On June 01 2024 14:40 Kreuger wrote:
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
From my understanding it should be yeah
Could very well be a remarkably bad tournament for Protoss, again. Decent chance we don't get even one Protoss in Ro8 and then if this is the case Maru will likely bop herO.
In other news, I really thought Serral was going to take a hit with military service. Clearly not haha.
It’s a pretty brutal format, there should be some balance between circuit qualification and the open bracket that is a little less skewed.
Honestly I don’t think anyone except maybe Serral close to his best could conceivably navigate this format to win a tournament, and even then it would be a tall order.
How is it worse than the Katowice open bracket that has been there for years and some notable winners got through it (albeit rarely)
On June 01 2024 18:03 WombaT wrote: PvZ has been in a decent spot for quite a while now, Serral’s just got a ZvP on a whole other level entirely. Possibly the strongest single matchup we’ve seen in SC2’s time
Yeah think so Too its Just funny when people (i guess zergs) recently tried to yap about zvp being toss favored now and at this Event its 23-9 for zergs so far
TBF, a LOT of that is simply matchup logic. Dark stomping Trigger, Reynor and Serral stomping Nice. Rogue and Solar stomped some protoss in the total PvZvPvZ bracket. Scarlett smacked around Holden. The only obvious reverse example of that was Mixu vs Shadown, and I would generally not be anywhere near as confident about calling that in advance, and say it's balanced by Mixu stomping Zain. So that's about 8 of those matches where balance would have to be very far gone for the protoss to stand a chance. Meanwhile the zerg walkovers either got knocked out by terran or in mirrors.
Shhh...you're supposed to let them believe their delusions and pet narratives.
This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think so. That why the bracket does not work in favor of Rogue. Eventhough he beat Clem, he still has to meet herO and Maru later. Less than 5 percent chance to qualify.
On June 02 2024 00:50 Argonauta wrote: I'm surprised Rogue didn't try lurker, given how good they worked vs Cure. Still very impressive that Rogue looks this good after 2 months.
He wasn't given any time or room to transition to lurkers. Clem suffocated him from start to finish.
On June 02 2024 00:50 Argonauta wrote: I'm surprised Rogue didn't try lurker, given how good they worked vs Cure. Still very impressive that Rogue looks this good after 2 months.
It is because he kept messing with the defense, losing unnecessary drones to multi-prong harass so he cannot tech up. fast to lurkers. Maybe it will take like a couple of months before he can keep the pace with Clem today, or if he can't keep up because of the age issue, he can use old tricks in his playbooks as long as he familiarizes with the opponents' build order or gameplans prior to the match just like a game versus Solar yesterday.
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think the qualifier will have 2 spots, he has a chance there if he continues improving. Most of best players will already qualify for ESW before that.
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think the qualifier will have 2 spots, he has a chance there if he continues improving. Most of best players will already qualify for ESW before that.
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think the qualifier will have 2 spots, he has a chance there if he continues improving. Most of best players will already qualify for ESW before that.
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think the qualifier will have 2 spots, he has a chance there if he continues improving. Most of best players will already qualify for ESW before that.
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think the qualifier will have 2 spots, he has a chance there if he continues improving. Most of best players will already qualify for ESW before that.
On June 01 2024 03:00 JJH777 wrote: Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
I completely agree. It's actually kind of insane. It's less problematic to me that the open bracket players needing to win 3 bo3 + 3 bo5 to make ro8 than that a player can win just two bo3s and make playoffs.
Also, the choice to do only three matches on Sunday is equally bad. Should have done Ro8 onwards.
On June 01 2024 14:40 Kreuger wrote:
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
From my understanding it should be yeah
Could very well be a remarkably bad tournament for Protoss, again. Decent chance we don't get even one Protoss in Ro8 and then if this is the case Maru will likely bop herO.
In other news, I really thought Serral was going to take a hit with military service. Clearly not haha.
It’s a pretty brutal format, there should be some balance between circuit qualification and the open bracket that is a little less skewed.
Honestly I don’t think anyone except maybe Serral close to his best could conceivably navigate this format to win a tournament, and even then it would be a tall order.
How is it worse than the Katowice open bracket that has been there for years and some notable winners got through it (albeit rarely)
I don’t think that’s ideal either but it’s not quite as skewed as this format.
Clem’s already dropped 2 series and he’s still alive, the likes of Serral et al have won 2 and are in playoffs already. Whereas open bracket players it’s considerably less forgiving.
At least in Katowice yeah it’s a slog to get into the group stage or w/e but once you’re there it’s pretty much an even playing field.
On June 02 2024 00:24 Swisslink wrote: This should be Rogue's last chance to qualify for the Esports World Cup, right (aside from the qualifier with a single spot on the line, where I doubt he has a chance to win)?
I think the qualifier will have 2 spots, he has a chance there if he continues improving. Most of best players will already qualify for ESW before that.
On June 01 2024 03:00 JJH777 wrote: Too bad for Stats. Also I really wish they would actually take the negative feedback into account and revert back the old Dreamhack Open format from 2022 and earlier or create a new format altogether. Winning 2 bo3s to go to ro8 while Open Bracket players have to go through like 10+ rounds of bo5 play to get to an equal point is just anti competition. We could run 100 of these and I doubt an open bracket player would win one.
I completely agree. It's actually kind of insane. It's less problematic to me that the open bracket players needing to win 3 bo3 + 3 bo5 to make ro8 than that a player can win just two bo3s and make playoffs.
Also, the choice to do only three matches on Sunday is equally bad. Should have done Ro8 onwards.
On June 01 2024 14:40 Kreuger wrote:
On June 01 2024 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Does that mean we'll get the winner of herO/Clem/Gumi vs Maru? That'd be sad was hoping for a 3rd herO vs Maru finals.
From my understanding it should be yeah
Could very well be a remarkably bad tournament for Protoss, again. Decent chance we don't get even one Protoss in Ro8 and then if this is the case Maru will likely bop herO.
In other news, I really thought Serral was going to take a hit with military service. Clearly not haha.
It’s a pretty brutal format, there should be some balance between circuit qualification and the open bracket that is a little less skewed.
Honestly I don’t think anyone except maybe Serral close to his best could conceivably navigate this format to win a tournament, and even then it would be a tall order.
How is it worse than the Katowice open bracket that has been there for years and some notable winners got through it (albeit rarely)
I don’t think that’s ideal either but it’s not quite as skewed as this format.
Clem’s already dropped 2 series and he’s still alive, the likes of Serral et al have won 2 and are in playoffs already. Whereas open bracket players it’s considerably less forgiving.
At least in Katowice yeah it’s a slog to get into the group stage or w/e but once you’re there it’s pretty much an even playing field.
I think it's a bit weird that Serral and Dark got a pass from playing the regionals. It makes it a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy that the top of the global standings stay at the top. But I don't mind the rest: do well at the regionals and you get a seed into the group stage, and thus at a bare minimum, the knockout stage, do badly/don't compete at the regionals and you have a brutal slog through the open bracket. Group stage should probably be Bo5, but I'm guessing they want to rotate as much as possible on the main stage, and doing Bo5s would allow for fewer matches there.
The bottom half of this bracket is so much weaker than the top half it's crazy.. with the exception of Serral there are at least 7 players (Maru, Dark, herO, Byun, Stats, Gumiho, Clem) in the top half I would consider straight up favorites or 50-50 vs everyone on the bottom. Guys like Rogue, Solar, Creator would also have had very solid shots in either of the bottom half brackets. Wish we could get a bracket that isn't completely lopsided for once.
It's also a joke that they've never done a single pre-determined bracket where we know where each placement from each group will wind up in advance. Always has to be behind closed doors. As if players throwing matches to avoid certain brackets is that big of an issue... Pre-determined brackets have worked for GSL for the games entire life.
Even if Clem wins vs herO, by the time he plays Maru he will have already played 12-14 maps almost non-stop. This must be exhausting - and then he will have to play a TvT expert. Just brutal.
But it's his own fault - losing to Stats and Big Gabe should have be avoidable for Clem.
On June 02 2024 04:14 Antithesis wrote: So far, 5 out 5 TvPs in the knockout stage have been won by the Terran. herO and Astrea are the two Protosses remaining.
Edit: The Terrans were the higher-tier players for the most part, though.
I'd say in every case, i.e. it would be an upset otherwise.
On June 02 2024 04:14 Antithesis wrote: So far, 5 out 5 TvPs in the knockout stage have been won by the Terran. herO and Astrea are the two Protosses remaining.
Edit: The Terrans were the higher-tier players for the most part, though.
I'd say in every case, i.e. it would be an upset otherwise.
On June 02 2024 04:14 Antithesis wrote: So far, 5 out 5 TvPs in the knockout stage have been won by the Terran. herO and Astrea are the two Protosses remaining.
Edit: The Terrans were the higher-tier players for the most part, though.
I'd say in every case, i.e. it would be an upset otherwise.
Idk classic winning wouldnt have been an upset imo neither with Stats i dont se byun as a tier higher.
Wow herO vs Clem g1, that's like 4 straight minutes of non stop tug of war TvP frontline battle with and reinforcements streaming in from both sides. How often do you see that?
50 minute game 2 between Sprit and Astrea. Wonder how much Spirit will be able to hold up the tournament this time. If he wins and plays Reynor, it could be a long long night.
I love how herO can make diamond league mistakes (losing all probes in a base to a liberator, the "flanking collosi" in game one) and still beat the best players in the world. Truly a one of a kind player.
On June 02 2024 04:22 darklycid wrote: Idk classic winning wouldnt have been an upset imo neither with Stats i dont se byun as a tier higher.
According to Aligulac, this is recent form for these players: Classic PvT - 48%, Cure TvP - 62% Stats PvT - 47%, ByuN TvP - 63%
Stat's recent overall winrate - 50%, ByuN's is 66%. How is this not a tier higher?
If i look at byuns winrate since the patch mid march it is 60% but massively bolstered up by famring tosses in NA open cups. Stats is ar 55% slightly bolstered by NA open cups and sincem id march stats was 3-1 vs byun so i lett yourself figure that out.
On June 02 2024 04:32 Topin wrote: is hero vs clem a close series? i just got home
Missed the first half of G1 but it ended with a giant constant battle that had Clem on the defensive the whole time. HerO ground him down with mass units and an econ advantage until Clem tapped out
G2 HerO proxied a gateway while Clem built his CC on his natural. Good micro by HerO plus bad bunker placement from Clem meant GG
G3 Clem had a great start with lots of probe kills from early reaper/hellion/liberator dives. He got overeager though and tried to end the game early with a marine tank push, but storm finished before combat shields and medivacs were out and lost his entire army in the middle of the map. He still had econ advantage and saved himself from instant death with a razor's edge bunker save at his natural, but HerO went all-in and kept forcing lifts on Clem's third. He forced trade after trade until Clem ran out of minerals at his nat and main and that was the end.
herO is definitely at EWC no matter what happens in this match. Anyone in top 15 of global points is basically guaranteed to make it without some really weird scenarios happening.
I'd call Dark the hardest opponent for Serral. I agree Shin is somewhat tough for him but Cure is probably the easiest person he could realistically get.
On June 02 2024 04:59 ekojs wrote: Maru winning would effectively qualifies herO too, no? That would add 1 more spots for the Global Standings and herO is pretty up there in points.
Yea re-reading Popy breakdown he's pretty much guaranteed because of double/triple qualification.
They really need to streamline the qualification process lol.
Edit: Oh wow, that's a quick turnaround for herO. I wish they gave him at least an hour to go gather himself and go back over some replays.
On June 02 2024 04:59 ekojs wrote: Maru winning would effectively qualifies herO too, no? That would add 1 more spots for the Global Standings and herO is pretty up there in points.
Yea re-reading Popy breakdown he's pretty much guaranteed because of double/triple qualification.
They really need to streamline the qualification process lol.
I liked the WCS system where most spots were from the standings.
Imo something like you instantly qualify for winning an ESL Masters/being a Kato finalist and otherwise need points would be ideal.
On June 02 2024 04:59 ekojs wrote: Maru winning would effectively qualifies herO too, no? That would add 1 more spots for the Global Standings and herO is pretty up there in points.
Yea re-reading Popy breakdown he's pretty much guaranteed because of double/triple qualification.
They really need to streamline the qualification process lol.
Edit: Oh wow, that's a quick turnaround for herO. I wish they gave him at least an hour to go gather himself and go back over some replays.
Yeah, blame Spirit Astrea, they are taking a while to finish their series, I think the OG plan was Reynor vs the winner.
On June 02 2024 04:51 Argonauta wrote: Serral got the easier bracket again
The easiest bracket for Serral would be playing against Maru.
That is true. Maru is easy work for Serral
Speaking of easy bracket, Maru has the easiest road to the final as usual. Gets the heavily T favoured TVp matchup. Follow up with Papa Dark or usual punching bag big Gabe
On June 02 2024 05:06 Argonauta wrote: Yeah, blame Spirit Astrea, they are taking a while to finish their series, I think the OG plan was Reynor vs the winner.
I think we all know which player out of thes two is the reason for "taking a while".
On June 02 2024 04:51 Argonauta wrote: Serral got the easier bracket again
The easiest bracket for Serral would be playing against Maru.
That is true. Maru is easy work for Serral
Speaking of easy bracket, Maru has the easiest road to the final as usual. Gets the heavily T favoured TVp matchup. Follow up with Papa Dark or usual punching bag big Gabe
herO just 3-0'd the guy EU fans have been saying is the actual best Terran for years right after he won the EU regional. Apparently he's too hard for any EU player besides Serral.
On June 02 2024 05:19 Telephone wrote: Hope for a sick series between herO and Maru, extremely hype, but shouldn't herO have been given a little more time in between series?
Agree, it was like 10 min break or smt. At least I hope he was pump af
On June 02 2024 04:51 Argonauta wrote: Serral got the easier bracket again
The easiest bracket for Serral would be playing against Maru.
That is true. Maru is easy work for Serral
Speaking of easy bracket, Maru has the easiest road to the final as usual. Gets the heavily T favoured TVp matchup. Follow up with Papa Dark or usual punching bag big Gabe
herO just 3-0'd the guy EU fans have been saying is the actual best Terran for years right after he won the EU regional. Apparently he's too hard for any EU player besides Serral.
Yes, cause one result over a struggling clem means a lot right?
Not to mention herO is the only Protoss who won a tvp while all the other tosses are getting knocked out by terrans. It’s obvious toss are struggling hard due to this current terran favoured patches / maps
Maru has always struggled against foreigners on the international level. Losing to cyan, time, reynor, Serral, Clem, meow, etc. the list is actually quite long lol
On June 02 2024 04:51 Argonauta wrote: Serral got the easier bracket again
The easiest bracket for Serral would be playing against Maru.
That is true. Maru is easy work for Serral
Speaking of easy bracket, Maru has the easiest road to the final as usual. Gets the heavily T favoured TVp matchup. Follow up with Papa Dark or usual punching bag big Gabe
herO just 3-0'd the guy EU fans have been saying is the actual best Terran for years right after he won the EU regional. Apparently he's too hard for any EU player besides Serral.
Yes, cause one result over a struggling clem means a lot right?
Not to mention herO is the only Protoss who won a tvp while all the other tosses are getting knocked out by terrans. It’s obvious toss are struggling hard due to this current terran favoured patches / maps
Maru has always struggled against foreigners on the international level. Losing to cyan, time, reynor, Serral, Clem, meow, etc. the list is actually quite long lol
Maru has a favored match history vs all of those players besides Serral. Maru's winrate vs Clem and Reynor is a lot higher than his winrate vs herO.
On June 02 2024 04:51 Argonauta wrote: Serral got the easier bracket again
The easiest bracket for Serral would be playing against Maru.
That is true. Maru is easy work for Serral
Speaking of easy bracket, Maru has the easiest road to the final as usual. Gets the heavily T favoured TVp matchup. Follow up with Papa Dark or usual punching bag big Gabe
herO just 3-0'd the guy EU fans have been saying is the actual best Terran for years right after he won the EU regional. Apparently he's too hard for any EU player besides Serral.
Yes, cause one result over a struggling clem means a lot right?
Not to mention herO is the only Protoss who won a tvp while all the other tosses are getting knocked out by terrans. It’s obvious toss are struggling hard due to this current terran favoured patches / maps
Maru has always struggled against foreigners on the international level. Losing to cyan, time, reynor, Serral, Clem, meow, etc. the list is actually quite long lol
Maru has a favored match history vs all of those players besides Serral. Maru's winrate vs Clem and Reynor is a lot higher than his winrate vs herO.
Yeah Maru vs herO seems the more dicey match for Maru
Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
Looks to me like herO, Maru, and Serral are pretty clearly the best players of each race, and if they are playing anyone else than each other, they will probably win.
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
herO is giving me some of that Bisu vibe. Absolutely godlike in first 15 mins with aggression and micros but once it gets to late game he started to look a little lost.
Maru and Serral are only two players in the world that felt like they always have a very clear game plan on how to win no matter what kind of situation they are in and how long the game has been going. When Maru threw down 20 turrets the second he scouts the Carriers I knew he had this one.
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
Look at how Clem has been dominating online for years but his offline record is still shaky to this day. Took him 4 years since his first online premier to win the first offline premier.
Even if MaxPax do decide to play offline, he will likely underperform for quite a long time before finally able to play up to his usual online level. It could take months, even years.
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
Look at how Clem has been dominating online for years but his offline record is still shaky to this day. Took him 4 years since his first online premier to win the first offline premier.
Even if MaxPax do decide to play offline, he will likely underperform for quite a long time before finally able to play up to his usual online level. It could take months, even years.
To be fair, some players are naturally good at playing offline vs online. It doesn't take everyone a long time to adjust to offline play.
Of course, whatever issue is stopping Maxpax from playing offline would probably continue to haunt him even if he decides to show up in person. I seriously doubt he'd be a natural on-stage player.
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
Look at how Clem has been dominating online for years but his offline record is still shaky to this day. Took him 4 years since his first online premier to win the first offline premier.
Even if MaxPax do decide to play offline, he will likely underperform for quite a long time before finally able to play up to his usual online level. It could take months, even years.
Plus Maxpax hasn't even won an online premier either. And he's played in 20 of them. Granted a chunk of those 20 event were during COVID era before Maxpax really took off but that still doesn't point to him being a true contender in offline events.
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
Look at how Clem has been dominating online for years but his offline record is still shaky to this day. Took him 4 years since his first online premier to win the first offline premier.
Even if MaxPax do decide to play offline, he will likely underperform for quite a long time before finally able to play up to his usual online level. It could take months, even years.
Plus Maxpax hasn't even won an online premier either. And he's played in 20 of them. Granted a chunk of those 20 event were during COVID era before Maxpax really took off but that still doesn't point to him being a true contender in offline events.
Yeah that's what those "MaxPax will save Protoss" crowd confuses me the most. MaxPax hasn't even showing any dominance in online tournament either. He just played well in weekly cups, his performance in online premiers are nothing special so far. He has potential, that's it.
Clem in 2020 and 2021 was regularly beating Serral and Reynor in bo7 series on biggest online tournaments. MaxPax is not on that level yet.
On June 02 2024 06:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote: In the Ro8:
4 players directly seeded from Winner's Stage (obviously) Serral, Maru, Oliveira, Dark
1 player from Open Bracket: ByuN
3 players from Winner's Stage, who won one Bo5 in the Knockout Bracket: herO, Reynor, SHIN
So basically the entire Open Bracket and Knockout Bracket ended up mostly pointless.
There are only a couple of players from the Open Bracket that is capable of going through the whole Knockout Bracket and get into the playoff, Byun, Solar and maybe Creator, depending on the bracket luck as well. Thats why some of us doesnt like the format.
On June 02 2024 06:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote: So basically the entire Open Bracket and Knockout Bracket ended up mostly pointless.
It's just too brutal. ByuN had to play 19 maps to get into Ro8. Maru and Serral had to play just 4, Dark 5, Oliveira 6. Cure played 22 maps and barely didn't get into Ro8.
On June 02 2024 06:19 Tsubbi wrote: Hero had this game in the bag. Transitions to carriers and then decides to throw away his whole army while being up a base for no reason at all.
The current best protosses really seem to lack this little bit of game intelligence to go all the way. It always feels like they could easily win their games with some tiny adjustments.
We need the "best" Protoss player in the world but it never plays offline. Thinking he's some sort of advanced AI and not actually a human...
Look at how Clem has been dominating online for years but his offline record is still shaky to this day. Took him 4 years since his first online premier to win the first offline premier.
Even if MaxPax do decide to play offline, he will likely underperform for quite a long time before finally able to play up to his usual online level. It could take months, even years.
Plus Maxpax hasn't even won an online premier either. And he's played in 20 of them. Granted a chunk of those 20 event were during COVID era before Maxpax really took off but that still doesn't point to him being a true contender in offline events.
Yeah that's what those "MaxPax will save Protoss" crowd confuses me the most. MaxPax hasn't even showing any dominance in online tournament either. He just played well in weekly cups, his performance in online premiers are nothing special so far. He has potential, that's it.
Clem in 2020 and 2021 was regularly beating Serral and Reynor in bo7 series on biggest online tournaments. MaxPax is not on that level yet.
On June 02 2024 06:37 TheLordofAwesome wrote: The schedule is moving along nicely, I must say. Not a lot of dead airtime.
Is Ro4 a Bo7 or Bo5?
BO5
I think Dark's mechanics have gotten worse since he became a dad. Having a few Elazer macro moments in the early game throughout this tournament. Can hardly blame the guy, infants are a ton of work.
On June 02 2024 06:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote: So basically the entire Open Bracket and Knockout Bracket ended up mostly pointless.
It's just too brutal. ByuN had to play 19 maps to get into Ro8. Maru and Serral had to play just 4, Dark 5, Oliveira 6. Cure played 22 maps and barely didn't get into Ro8.
I agree completely.
EDIT: Has Rogue popularized early Burrow in ZvT just 2 months after his return?
I just realized we have the perfect setup for a repetition of Kato'23: Shin vs. Serral in the quarterfinals, Maru already advanced to the semifinals, and Oliveira still in the tournament.
On June 02 2024 06:50 Antithesis wrote: I just realized we have the perfect setup for a repetition of Kato'23: Shin vs. Serral in the quarterfinals, Maru already advanced to the semifinals, and Oliveira still in the tournament.
Nice move from Dark to recognize that Byun wasn't making Tanks anymore and wasn't interested in making Ghosts, so he adds in Hydralisks as the final kill move.
On June 02 2024 06:50 Antithesis wrote: I just realized we have the perfect setup for a repetition of Kato'23: Shin vs. Serral in the quarterfinals, Maru already advanced to the semifinals, and Oliveira still in the tournament.
Oliveira miracle story, part 2 incoming?
I seriously doubt Oliveira will ever play that well again in his life. Also, he'll probably have to play Serral in the Ro4, assuming he beats Reynor. No way he takes down Serral. He didn't have to play Serral in his Kato 23 run.
This has been Byun story since coming back from military for the most part, capable of playing great games but keep falling short against the top tier guys like Maru Dark herO Serral.
On June 02 2024 07:50 tigera6 wrote: This has been Byun story since coming back from military for the most part, capable of playing great games but keep falling short against the top tier guys like Maru Dark herO Serral.
Byun is committed to not playing late game against Zerg. He will kill them in the midgame or he will die trying.
Whether he is so committed to not playing late game because of his injury history (even Maru abandons playing late game with Zerg when he is suffering from injury issues) or because of some mental block, that's the reason he can't get to the next level against the top players.
When they know he's afraid to go late game and that he will always be ultra aggressive against them, it makes him easier to deal with. Byun can only get so far overwhelming opponents in the early and midgame. Against the tip top he needs to not be so predictable.
On June 02 2024 07:48 dysenterymd wrote: Poor Byun, he looks like he has the skill to pick off these top players like Dark in the games, but it just never comes together for him.
If Oliveira beats Reynor will a spot go to the #2 in the Asia rankings? Or will it just be another spot in the global rankings?
I believe the extra slot will go to the Regional ranking, either EU or Asia.
On June 02 2024 07:50 tigera6 wrote: This has been Byun story since coming back from military for the most part, capable of playing great games but keep falling short against the top tier guys like Maru Dark herO Serral.
Also before military except for the short stint in late 2016
On June 02 2024 07:55 Vindicare605 wrote: afraid to go late game and that he will always be ultra aggressive against them, it makes him easier to deal with. Byun can only get so far overwhelming opponents in the early and midgame. Against the tip top he needs to not be so predictable.
Disclaimer - it's not a balance whine post, just an observation. But the same happens when one faction is more favored in late game - even if the other faction might be more favored in mid-game, it usually still tilts the overall balance towards the late-game favored faction. Unless that other faction's mid-game power spike is overwhelming. Knowing that your opponent will most probably really try to end the game before minute X makes it easier to survive until that minute X as you know what to expect.
On June 02 2024 07:48 dysenterymd wrote: Poor Byun, he looks like he has the skill to pick off these top players like Dark in the games, but it just never comes together for him.
If Oliveira beats Reynor will a spot go to the #2 in the Asia rankings? Or will it just be another spot in the global rankings?
I believe the extra slot will go to the Regional ranking, either EU or Asia.
Oh really, I thought others had said any extra slots from double qualifications go to the global standings? So with Maru and Dark double qualifying those slots go to Korea not global?
On June 02 2024 07:55 Vindicare605 wrote: afraid to go late game and that he will always be ultra aggressive against them, it makes him easier to deal with. Byun can only get so far overwhelming opponents in the early and midgame. Against the tip top he needs to not be so predictable.
Disclaimer - it's not a balance whine post, just an observation. But the same happens when one faction is more favored in late game - even if the other faction might be more favored in mid-game, it usually still tilts the overall balance towards the late-game favored faction. If player A knows that player B will most probably really try to end the game before 15th minute, it makes it easier to survive until that 15th minute as they know what will happen.
Byun's style is not a balance thing. He plays the same way vs Maru in TvT. Also, he's literally always played this way, pretty much.
On June 02 2024 07:55 Vindicare605 wrote: afraid to go late game and that he will always be ultra aggressive against them, it makes him easier to deal with. Byun can only get so far overwhelming opponents in the early and midgame. Against the tip top he needs to not be so predictable.
Disclaimer - it's not a balance whine post, just an observation. But the same happens when one faction is more favored in late game - even if the other faction might be more favored in mid-game, it usually still tilts the overall balance towards the late-game favored faction. If player A knows that player B will most probably really try to end the game before 15th minute, it makes it easier to survive until that 15th minute as they know what will happen.
But lategame is not just reaching a certain mark in the clock, its certain level of income, infrastructure and tech. If you prep for lategame, you may be vulnerable to midgame pushes, hence is not as simple as you make it sound.
On June 02 2024 08:10 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Byun's style is not a balance thing. He plays the same way vs Maru in TvT. Also, he's literally always played this way, pretty much.
Didn't I say in the first line that this is just a pretty obvious observation that knowing what your opponent will do makes it easier to counter it? I never said ByuN's loss had anything to do with balance. Only with him being predictable.
On June 02 2024 08:10 Argonauta wrote: But lategame is not just reaching a certain mark in the clock, its certain level of income, infrastructure and tech. If you prep for lategame, you may be vulnerable to midgame pushes, hence is not as simple as you make it sound.
Of course it's not a certain mark on the clock. And of course it's not simple. But if you know that your opponent most probably will go for early or mid-game all-in - because they really don't want to play late-game - doesn't this make your life quite a bit easier compared to the situation when you don't know it? Knowing what your opponent will do is a huge benefit.
On June 02 2024 08:10 Argonauta wrote: But lategame is not just reaching a certain mark in the clock, its certain level of income, infrastructure and tech. If you prep for lategame, you may be vulnerable to midgame pushes, hence is not as simple as you make it sound.
Of course it's not a certain mark on the clock. And of course it's not simple. But if you know that your opponent most probably will go for early or mid-game all-in - because they really don't want to play late-game - doesn't this make your life quite a bit easier compared to the situation when you don't know it? Knowing what your opponent will do is a huge benefit.
And if you know your opponent wants to play lategame, you can counter it by eco cheese, its not necessarily always an all in the way one can deal with it.
On June 02 2024 08:21 Argonauta wrote: And if you know your opponent wants to play lategame, you can counter it by eco cheese, its not necessarily always an all in the way one can deal with it.
And your opponent can scout it and punish your greed. As they know it's also an option for you. In the end, one of you is on a timer, another one isn't. I think this always benefits the guy who is fine - and even happy - with going to the late game. But this is offtopic here anyway, sorry. I shouldn't have started this, probably.
On June 02 2024 08:21 Argonauta wrote: And if you know your opponent wants to play lategame, you can counter it by eco cheese, its not necessarily always an all in the way one can deal with it.
And your opponent can scout it and punish your greed. As they know it's also an option for you. In the end, one of you is on a timer, another one isn't. I think this always benefits the guy who is fine - and even happy - with going to the late game. But this is offtopic here anyway, sorry. I shouldn't have started this, probably.
In the end I would say it's a dance between how much I invest in defense/attack and ecco.
To say the mid favored faction is on a timer, but if the player is better he finishes the game in time or he increases the time window with his advantage in the mid game.
Holy shit, this is the best I've seen Oliveira played since his miracle run last year. Absolutely flawless G1. Defended like 20 nydus attempts perfectly.
On June 02 2024 07:48 dysenterymd wrote: Poor Byun, he looks like he has the skill to pick off these top players like Dark in the games, but it just never comes together for him.
If Oliveira beats Reynor will a spot go to the #2 in the Asia rankings? Or will it just be another spot in the global rankings?
I believe the extra slot will go to the Regional ranking, either EU or Asia.
Oh really, I thought others had said any extra slots from double qualifications go to the global standings? So with Maru and Dark double qualifying those slots go to Korea not global?
Maru and Dark already qualified through IEM, so their spots in ESL Spring got pushed to Global ranking. Reynor and Oliveira hast qualified, so whoever win here got the spot and the spot for Regional ranking go to the next player.
TIME going from being a pure timing attack Terran like Byun to being someone who is brazenly saying "we're going late game bro" 5 minutes into the game is such a flex. Dude keeps evolving his play.
On June 02 2024 08:55 Vindicare605 wrote: I didn't like that from the beginning when Oliveira was pushing into loads of Hydralisks without any tank support but he was making it work.
But eventually Reynor just got too cost effective. Ghosts alone won't do it, you need the full arsenal to really seal the deal.
After Clem won DH Atlanta with ghost/lib and no tanks, that style got a lot more popular. I still think tanks are good though.
Really curious if we see some aggression from Reynor in g3
On June 02 2024 06:50 Antithesis wrote: I just realized we have the perfect setup for a repetition of Kato'23: Shin vs. Serral in the quarterfinals, Maru already advanced to the semifinals, and Oliveira still in the tournament.
On June 02 2024 06:50 Antithesis wrote: I just realized we have the perfect setup for a repetition of Kato'23: Shin vs. Serral in the quarterfinals, Maru already advanced to the semifinals, and Oliveira still in the tournament.
On June 02 2024 09:23 Pandain wrote: What did he say about playing Serral? He was going 50-50 or something?
He was talking about Reynor. That he thought that if he played as well against Reynor as he did in practice against Serral, it was a 50/50 chance to win the series.
On June 02 2024 09:24 Pandain wrote: Holy fuck lol did anyone else hear that like life wisdom part by Oliveira at the end - is this guy reading philosophy?
Literally never heard anything like that in a SC2 interview haha
On June 02 2024 09:20 tigera6 wrote: Serral will just crush Oliveira, no disrespect. Reynor played too greedy against an incoming all-in.
And this is why Byun is stuck where he is. Oliveira made Reynor play that greedy when he beat him in the first game with his late game build.
When Byun plays the same way every single time, it means the Zerg never gets put out of their comfort zone and they know exactly what kind of tempo to play with every single game.
On June 02 2024 06:50 Antithesis wrote: I just realized we have the perfect setup for a repetition of Kato'23: Shin vs. Serral in the quarterfinals, Maru already advanced to the semifinals, and Oliveira still in the tournament.
Oliveira miracle story, part 2 incoming?
Is it coming together?
But first, Shin now has to beat Serral.
Haha good one!
Now sorry, I'm off to buy an enormous amount of the cheapest alcohol I can find in prevision for tomorrow.
On June 02 2024 09:23 Pandain wrote: What did he say about playing Serral? He was going 50-50 or something?
I think he said that he practiced a lot with Reynor and Serral and went 50-50 with Reynor? Maybe someone who speaks mandarin will correct me though.
I speak Mandarin. Oliveira said he's usually 50/50 with Reynor in practice, but he also practiced a lot with Serral recently, he felt if he played as well here as he did when he played with Serral, he could beat Reynor.
subtext here: "Serral is much harder to beat than Reynor“
damn it took us about 8 years but we finally got a Chinese translator at a WCS/DH/ESL event again (i don't know exactly how many years but that's in the right range)
On June 02 2024 09:30 Waxangel wrote: damn it took us about 8 years but we finally got a Chinese translator at a WCS/DH/ESL event again (i don't know exactly how many years but that's in the right range)
and for someone who speaks proper English too :D amazing
On June 02 2024 09:23 Pandain wrote: What did he say about playing Serral? He was going 50-50 or something?
I think he said that he practiced a lot with Reynor and Serral and went 50-50 with Reynor? Maybe someone who speaks mandarin will correct me though.
I speak Mandarin. Oliveira said he's usually 50/50 with Reynor in practice, but he also practiced a lot with Serral recently, he felt if he played as well here as he did when he played with Serral, he could beat Reynor.
subtext here: "Serral is much harder to beat than Reynor“
On June 02 2024 09:55 Acrofales wrote: Masterclass? I think that was about as close as it can be. Serral was so late on the +1, and it very very nearly cost him the game.
Serral might have been able to pull drones and been fine if the fight went a little worse, so maybe it wasn't as close as it looked. He could've lost 10 or so and still been up a hatch and even on drones.
On June 02 2024 09:55 Acrofales wrote: Masterclass? I think that was about as close as it can be. Serral was so late on the +1, and it very very nearly cost him the game.
Serral didn't need to pull drones. That was a very easy hold.
The transfuses on the ravagers at the start of the fight there when Shin tried to snipe them were class and made Shin throw away a bunch of roaches for nothing. Add that to the bile dodging, and that fight looked so easy.
Serral seems on fire, Oliveira too, we got to see what might have happened at Katowice 2023! Overall a great day of StarCraft 2 I am curious to see the replays of ByuN vs Dark, he kinda got bamboozled by Dark’s ability to create chaos
With the 4 additional spots from Global Ranking, I think 3 will go to KR, and 1 will go to EU based on the current ranking. Shin probably missed the cut behind HM/Spirit.
Serral literally showing everyone there are levels at this stage. Literally stomped both hero and shin so far while doing military. Honorable mention to stomping Maru couple months ago as well
On June 02 2024 11:00 Nasigil1 wrote: Can anyone educate me on whether we can still see herO on EWC? Is there still hope for him to get there with points?
herO needs 4 spaces to open up since Reynor, Byun, Solar and Gumiho are all ahead of him in points. herO got 350 points from this tournament, but he also has a chance to win more in GSL.
If he straight up wins GSL he should get a direct seed (I think). So there's a chance he makes it in still. Either with points from GSL or from enough spots opening up above him.
On June 02 2024 11:00 Nasigil1 wrote: Can anyone educate me on whether we can still see herO on EWC? Is there still hope for him to get there with points?
herO needs 4 spaces to open up since Reynor, Byun, Solar and Gumiho are all ahead of him in points. herO got 350 points from this tournament, but he also has a chance to win more in GSL.
If he straight up wins GSL he should get a direct seed (I think). So there's a chance he makes it in still. Either with points from GSL or from enough spots opening up above him.
Nah he's 99.999999% in.
Reynor is 100% from Europe, two of ByuN/Solar/GuMiho are in from Korea, and three spots rolled down to global standings from this tournament. He's safe by a huge margin.
As said in the article, there was like actually very little EWC drama around this tournament because the point structure basically 99% locked in most of the players.
We can pretty much conclude the qualifying spot as follow: Direct Invitation: Serral Clem Maru Dark Cure Oliveira EU EPT Ranking: MaxPax Reynor (Heromarine to replace if MaxPax decline) KR EPT Ranking: Gumiho Byun (herO taking Byun place if he win GSL S2) Asia EPT Ranking: Coffee (10pts ahead of Cyan currently) AM EPT Ranking: Astrea Global EPT Ranking: Solar herO(Byun if herO win GSL S2) Classic Heromarine (Spirit if MaxPax declines)
So herO is through in by either KR or Global ranking no matter what, Spirit can qualify if MaxPax declines
Notable players yet to qualify and will have to fight through the qualifier (2 spots): Shin Bunny Scarlett Lambo Creator Showtime Skillous Stats Kelazhur Nightmare DRG Rogue Trap Firefly Soo Ryung
Isn't it kinda typical for him to trade periods of bad and great performance? Maybe there's something in other aspects of his life that distracts him, who know. He's a young lad.
On June 02 2024 21:47 Pandain wrote: Can't believe Oliveira is actually in the round of 4 - what a legend
The greatest foreigner Terran ever?
Clem would still get my vote, although when Oliveira is hot he’s very hot indeed.
To be blunt if Oliveira also won here it would actually be getting kind of hard to put Clem over him. But that's getting way ahead of ourselves.
Oliveira didn’t really do all that much when WCS was region amalgamated, whereas Clem was going toe-to-toe with Serral and Reynor for quite some time (albeit much of that when WCS split back to regionals)
His career is somewhat reminiscent of what Heromarine’s would look like if you added a World Champ to it, which isn’t meant as a diss to anyone involved. Pretty consistent placement, almost always loses to folks like Serral or Reynor when it counted.
I mean Clem won the last one of these, a bunch of regionals ofc and he’s had some pretty decent placements in WC tier events. Oliveira of course has won one of the latter which is huge.
Realistically I think he has to win this/have a big EWC and Clem have a bad one and then maybe that might nudge him ahead. At present he’s got a big weekend over Clem, but Clem’s general body of work eclipses his IMO
On June 02 2024 21:47 Pandain wrote: Can't believe Oliveira is actually in the round of 4 - what a legend
The greatest foreigner Terran ever?
Clem would still get my vote, although when Oliveira is hot he’s very hot indeed.
To be blunt if Oliveira also won here it would actually be getting kind of hard to put Clem over him. But that's getting way ahead of ourselves.
Oliveira didn’t really do all that much when WCS was region amalgamated, whereas Clem was going toe-to-toe with Serral and Reynor for quite some time (albeit much of that when WCS split back to regionals)
His career is somewhat reminiscent of what Heromarine’s would look like if you added a World Champ to it, which isn’t meant as a diss to anyone involved. Pretty consistent placement, almost always loses to folks like Serral or Reynor when it counted.
I mean Clem won the last one of these, a bunch of regionals ofc and he’s had some pretty decent placements in WC tier events. Oliveira of course has won one of the latter which is huge.
Realistically I think he has to win this/have a big EWC and Clem have a bad one and then maybe that might nudge him ahead. At present he’s got a big weekend over Clem, but Clem’s general body of work eclipses his IMO
Mentally, they're different. Oli repeatedly through interviews shows that he still has that competitive hunger and fire underneath him, whereas HM has resigned himself to just being the highest-skilled prolific streamer of EU, for the steady income. I think that's the difference that let Oliveira enter his "final form" which snatched him the IEM trophy, and crushing Maru in the process.
I wouldn't put Oliveira ahead of Clem yet, but I do think people underestimate him even after his world championship (look at his player card and how low the scores are).
It’s one tournament, Serral has a 100% match win rate against Oliveira after 13, Reynor 72% after 18
Clem’s 34% after 47 matches and 49.5% after 105 matches against the same respective opponents.
Of course there are other opponents out there, and Oliveira’s an incredible talent but I just don’t think there’s anything much besides his WC to put him above Clem
In the same sense I have a hard time putting Byun above Cure. Yeah Byun had a miracle year but Cure’s probably accumulated more over the length of his career
On June 02 2024 21:47 Pandain wrote: Can't believe Oliveira is actually in the round of 4 - what a legend
The greatest foreigner Terran ever?
Clem would still get my vote, although when Oliveira is hot he’s very hot indeed.
To be blunt if Oliveira also won here it would actually be getting kind of hard to put Clem over him. But that's getting way ahead of ourselves.
Oliveira didn’t really do all that much when WCS was region amalgamated, whereas Clem was going toe-to-toe with Serral and Reynor for quite some time (albeit much of that when WCS split back to regionals)
His career is somewhat reminiscent of what Heromarine’s would look like if you added a World Champ to it, which isn’t meant as a diss to anyone involved. Pretty consistent placement, almost always loses to folks like Serral or Reynor when it counted.
I mean Clem won the last one of these, a bunch of regionals ofc and he’s had some pretty decent placements in WC tier events. Oliveira of course has won one of the latter which is huge.
Realistically I think he has to win this/have a big EWC and Clem have a bad one and then maybe that might nudge him ahead. At present he’s got a big weekend over Clem, but Clem’s general body of work eclipses his IMO
Mentally, they're different. Oli repeatedly through interviews shows that he still has that competitive hunger and fire underneath him, whereas HM has resigned himself to just being the highest-skilled prolific streamer of EU, for the steady income. I think that's the difference that let Oliveira enter his "final form" which snatched him the IEM trophy, and crushing Maru in the process.
I also think it's easier to "punch above your weight" as an aggressive player. Not to say that Oliveira is one-dimensional (he's won some amazing macro games, both in this tournament and in Katowice), but being able to pick up some wins with super sharp timings and a bit of momentum makes upsets much easier.
If we think of someone like Showtime, who's clearly very skilled and dedicated, a premier win would require him to win 3-4 bo5 straight against better players in macro games. At his best Showtime wins one of those series, but that's a much taller order than winning some macro games but also nailing some timings. On the flipside, if your aggression falls flat you'll have a much higher variance in your results.
As for Clem vs Oli, I think it still goes to Clem. Katowice > ESL Masters of course, but Clem's total body of online work puts him a bit ahead, even if online results count for less.
On June 02 2024 21:47 Pandain wrote: Can't believe Oliveira is actually in the round of 4 - what a legend
The greatest foreigner Terran ever?
Clem would still get my vote, although when Oliveira is hot he’s very hot indeed.
To be blunt if Oliveira also won here it would actually be getting kind of hard to put Clem over him. But that's getting way ahead of ourselves.
Oliveira didn’t really do all that much when WCS was region amalgamated, whereas Clem was going toe-to-toe with Serral and Reynor for quite some time (albeit much of that when WCS split back to regionals)
His career is somewhat reminiscent of what Heromarine’s would look like if you added a World Champ to it, which isn’t meant as a diss to anyone involved. Pretty consistent placement, almost always loses to folks like Serral or Reynor when it counted.
I mean Clem won the last one of these, a bunch of regionals ofc and he’s had some pretty decent placements in WC tier events. Oliveira of course has won one of the latter which is huge.
Realistically I think he has to win this/have a big EWC and Clem have a bad one and then maybe that might nudge him ahead. At present he’s got a big weekend over Clem, but Clem’s general body of work eclipses his IMO
Mentally, they're different. Oli repeatedly through interviews shows that he still has that competitive hunger and fire underneath him, whereas HM has resigned himself to just being the highest-skilled prolific streamer of EU, for the steady income. I think that's the difference that let Oliveira enter his "final form" which snatched him the IEM trophy, and crushing Maru in the process.
I also think it's easier to "punch above your weight" as an aggressive player. Not to say that Oliveira is one-dimensional (he's won some amazing macro games, both in this tournament and in Katowice), but being able to pick up some wins with super sharp timings and a bit of momentum makes upsets much easier.
If we think of someone like Showtime, who's clearly very skilled and dedicated, a premier win would require him to win 3-4 bo5 straight against better players in macro games. At his best Showtime wins one of those series, but that's a much taller order than winning some macro games but also nailing some timings. On the flipside, if your aggression falls flat you'll have a much higher variance in your results.
As for Clem vs Oli, I think it still goes to Clem. Katowice > ESL Masters of course, but Clem's total body of online work puts him a bit ahead, even if online results count for less.
Showtime’s approach is great if you wanna be consistent but it’s not going to win him tournaments.
He’s clearly an excellent player but he’s not going to run a Ro8+ gauntlet beating players straight up who are just better at that style.
Pretty much every tournament he looks bloody good and he rarely embarrasses himself but he just runs into that brick wall. But, on the flipside he also does rather well against the players he’s just better than, bit like Heromarine in that betting on them is considerably easier than most players. More often than not they’ll beat who they should beat on paper, and more often and not the inverse, there’s not a huge amount of variance
On June 02 2024 23:47 Sent. wrote: You can argue Oliveira's peak potential is higher (I'm not sure) but Clem is clearly a better player on average.
I'm not even sure if that's an arguable point, since he's only pulled it off once. However, seeing how motivated he is, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen again. And if it does, especially in the Saudi cup, it will be a very complicated comparison between him and Clem.
Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility.
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall.
On June 03 2024 00:12 Nakajin wrote: I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility.
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall.
When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special
He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results.
On June 02 2024 21:47 Pandain wrote: Can't believe Oliveira is actually in the round of 4 - what a legend
The greatest foreigner Terran ever?
Clem would still get my vote, although when Oliveira is hot he’s very hot indeed.
To be blunt if Oliveira also won here it would actually be getting kind of hard to put Clem over him. But that's getting way ahead of ourselves.
Oliveira didn’t really do all that much when WCS was region amalgamated, whereas Clem was going toe-to-toe with Serral and Reynor for quite some time (albeit much of that when WCS split back to regionals)
His career is somewhat reminiscent of what Heromarine’s would look like if you added a World Champ to it, which isn’t meant as a diss to anyone involved. Pretty consistent placement, almost always loses to folks like Serral or Reynor when it counted.
I mean Clem won the last one of these, a bunch of regionals ofc and he’s had some pretty decent placements in WC tier events. Oliveira of course has won one of the latter which is huge.
Realistically I think he has to win this/have a big EWC and Clem have a bad one and then maybe that might nudge him ahead. At present he’s got a big weekend over Clem, but Clem’s general body of work eclipses his IMO
Mentally, they're different. Oli repeatedly through interviews shows that he still has that competitive hunger and fire underneath him, whereas HM has resigned himself to just being the highest-skilled prolific streamer of EU, for the steady income. I think that's the difference that let Oliveira enter his "final form" which snatched him the IEM trophy, and crushing Maru in the process.
I also think it's easier to "punch above your weight" as an aggressive player. Not to say that Oliveira is one-dimensional (he's won some amazing macro games, both in this tournament and in Katowice), but being able to pick up some wins with super sharp timings and a bit of momentum makes upsets much easier.
If we think of someone like Showtime, who's clearly very skilled and dedicated, a premier win would require him to win 3-4 bo5 straight against better players in macro games. At his best Showtime wins one of those series, but that's a much taller order than winning some macro games but also nailing some timings. On the flipside, if your aggression falls flat you'll have a much higher variance in your results.
As for Clem vs Oli, I think it still goes to Clem. Katowice > ESL Masters of course, but Clem's total body of online work puts him a bit ahead, even if online results count for less.
The example you made about Showtime. His style is good to have a long career “in the middle of the pack”. He will never win or be a threat due to his play style. It’s a honest macro build EVERY single game. His opponents don’t need to worry about sharp timings or cheese because showtime doesn’t have that in his bag of tricks.
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory.
On June 03 2024 00:12 Nakajin wrote: I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility.
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall.
When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special
He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results.
Well, the more he plays him the higher the chances would be he beats him at least once, even Heromarine managed to beat him once in a bo5 given enough tries. And also there's a decent chance he wouldn't need to beat Serral because Clem/Reynor took him down first (happened more often than not). Oliveira probably wouldn't be able to win 5 but I think there's a decent chance he could've taken like 2-3 if he participated in every one
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory.
Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that.
On June 03 2024 00:12 Nakajin wrote: I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility.
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall.
When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special
He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results.
Well, the more he plays him the higher the chances would be he beats him at least once, even Heromarine managed to beat him once in a bo5 given enough tries. And also there's a decent chance he wouldn't need to beat Serral because Clem/Reynor took him down first (happened more often than not). Oliveira probably wouldn't be able to win 5 but I think there's a decent chance he could've taken like 2-3 if he participated in every one
I seldom agree with you, but this is quite true. Oliveira IMO has been heavily stagnated by his region. He would benefit from traveling abroad to practice more than any other player. He's said in interviews that he goes 50/50 against Reynor, and feels hopeless against Serral, but I would reckon that with a longterm practice schedule, he can definitely get the better of Reynor, while giving Serral a series loss from time to time. I think Oliveira has one of the best attitude and mindset in the East. He's humble and hardworking, and most of all hungry to become stronger even though he already has a big win under his belt.
On June 02 2024 22:13 ZeroByte13 wrote: Isn't it kinda typical for him to trade periods of bad and great performance? Maybe there's something in other aspects of his life that distracts him, who know. He's a young lad.
To be honest, he has had more valleys than peaks in recent performance. And its not like he doesnt take the game seriously, which is a pretty dumb take by some people, it looks to me that Reynor hitting a wall in term of playstyle. He likes to play fast and out-micro his opponent, but the current meta doesnt allow for those strategy to work anymore. The best way to play Zerg now is like Serral, getting the defense lock up, smash the attack and then counter for the win, but Reynor doesnt want to just defend, nor his defense setup is as great as Serral.
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory.
Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that.
Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over.
There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear.
On June 03 2024 00:12 Nakajin wrote: I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility.
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall.
When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special
He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results.
Well, the more he plays him the higher the chances would be he beats him at least once, even Heromarine managed to beat him once in a bo5 given enough tries. And also there's a decent chance he wouldn't need to beat Serral because Clem/Reynor took him down first (happened more often than not). Oliveira probably wouldn't be able to win 5 but I think there's a decent chance he could've taken like 2-3 if he participated in every one
This is a great point, especially since Oliveira has always had great TvT and I find it very likely he would have taken out Clem a couple times or more in the regionals, and had a fair amount of success against Reynor.
I mean I think Clem is still clearly ahead because Oliveira still hasn't shown anything amazing beyond that one IEM win. If he won here that would change but I mean he's going to have to go through Serral/Maru/dark and I don't believe in that.
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory.
Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that.
Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over.
There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear.
6 online tournaments, with less competitive player pool overall, and has double elimination format with an extra live. Yeah I do think winning IEM is more valuable than that. And Scarlett has accomplished more than Clem in her overall career, but he has far outweighed her achievement in the last 3-4 years. And while Clem has dominated Serral and Reynor, I doubt he could beat Maru 4-1 in any Grand Final.
On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote: the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
I feel like the way Dark played vs Byun yesterday Maru shouldn't really struggle but Dark seems to over perform vs Maru compared to his performances vs other Terrans.
On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote: the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
What are you talking about?
State is casting, awesome
the panel section they had few minutes ago to warm up Dark vs Maru
On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote: the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
What shade?
Wardi definitely threw shade to the GOAT list for not including Dark but when did we do that to Maru
Oh I mentioned history doesn't look good for Maru-Serral matches, does that really count as "the amount of shade is something else"?
On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote: the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
What shade?
Wardi definitely threw shade to the GOAT list for not including Dark but when did we do that to Maru
I asked the same thing lol. I have no idea what he thinks he saw. Wardi literally predicted Maru to win lmao.
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory.
Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that.
Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over.
There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear.
6 online tournaments, with less competitive player pool overall, and has double elimination format with an extra live. Yeah I do think winning IEM is more valuable than that. And Scarlett has accomplished more than Clem in her overall career, but he has far outweighed her achievement in the last 3-4 years. And while Clem has dominated Serral and Reynor, I doubt he could beat Maru 4-1 in any Grand Final.
Online or offline, they all count for something. Dismissing online completely is just silly. Why have any online tournaments, if they don't count at all to a player's legacy? If they're meant to be just qualifiers for big offline tournaments, then what's the point of assigning them premiere status with a large prize pool? Coming from the bottom bracket to win a tournament is far more impressive to me, so I don't know why you think double elim is a mark against his record. That's some mental gymnastics there.
Clem's TvT in the past year or so has shown vast improvements. I don't think he would ever be favored against Maru, but Oliveira wasn't ever favored against Maru before or after that tournament, either; and yet managed a 4-0 win, so I don't know why you're counting Clem out so easily. Furthermore, if this community accepts that zerg has been op our the last half-decade or so, then that only makes Clem's dominating wins against Serral and Reynor all the more impressive. He's been dominating the Korea zergs in the past year as well. (I personally don't buy into the zerg op narrative) Do you think Clem has a lesser chance of beating Maru 4-1 than Oliveira has of beating Serral 4-1? Give me a break. Clem has actually won several series against Maru, online (click "Match history" to reveal). Oliveira hasn't won one against Serral.
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo.
One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory.
Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that.
Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over.
There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear.
6 online tournaments, with less competitive player pool overall, and has double elimination format with an extra live. Yeah I do think winning IEM is more valuable than that. And Scarlett has accomplished more than Clem in her overall career, but he has far outweighed her achievement in the last 3-4 years. And while Clem has dominated Serral and Reynor, I doubt he could beat Maru 4-1 in any Grand Final.
While I'd have Clem above Oliveira as well due to his body of work, it's noteworthy that the only thing Clem has above Oli are tournaments Oli wasn't allowed to compete in. If Oli wins one more offline event he'd pull ahead for sure.
On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote: the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
What shade?
Wardi definitely threw shade to the GOAT list for not including Dark but when did we do that to Maru
Oh I mentioned history doesn't look good for Maru-Serral matches, does that really count as "the amount of shade is something else"?
Yeah I meant that and the "scrappy road" I think for anyone else getting a 3-2 over herO it would have been defined somewhat differently. Anyways great casting as always, dont read too much in cheeky threads.
If Dark didn't lose 3 overlords and a bunch of drones I feel that all-in might have worked. First OV loss was pretty excusable, but his harass defense is not looking up to par.
If he didn't get two medivacs with biles he might have just died.
Super sloppy play vs Maru, he was playing 30% slower this game than the other two. I think mine play would have been waay better choice vs the mass lings
So used to lurkers looking silly against good Ghost players (to be fair, that's just Maru, Clem, and Oliveira on a good day.) Guess all you need to do is make the game super scrappy and kill most orbitals!
You cannot find a more typical Dark game than this one.
Sloppy mechanics. Supply blocked multiple times. Low drone count in mid game. Not enough lava. Looked dead in the water. Suddenly pull a massive counter attach out of nowhere. Creating chaos everywhere. Turned a standard macro game into a extremely scrappy disaster. Somehow win the game against the best TvZ player in the world.
On June 03 2024 02:56 Nasigil1 wrote: You cannot find a more typical Dark game than this one.
Sloppy mechanics. Supply blocked multiple times. Low drone count in mid game. Not enough lava. Looked dead in the water. Suddenly pull a massive counter attach out of nowhere. Creating chaos everywhere. Somehow win a game against the best TvZ player in the world.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
Agreed 100%. Any T or P building 7 depots/pylons gets laughed at as "not good enough to hang with the best."
Maru and Serral (well, I guess he could lose to Oliveira?) are just so much better than everyone else in the world, it's not even close.
Dark is still scary, but I feel like he needs to tighten his play a bit if he wants to be winning championships. He doesn't have to have the best mechanics in the world, but he needs to do better than that.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
Dark got supply blocked on 58 over and over this tournament. Both vs Byun and Maru, he ends up building 7 overlords at once in early game.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
Dark got supply blocked on 58 over and over this tournament. Both vs Byun and Maru, he ends up building 7 overlords at once in early game.
Elazer overlords at 140 supply aren't game-ending, but Elazer overlords at 58 supply is ???? unless you're about to flood roaches.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
It annoys me how Dark never seems to improve on his mechanic and only gets worse. I understand being a dad means he has less time to play but doesn't his friends or coach call him out for this? It's such a simple thing to work on.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
Dark got supply blocked on 58 over and over this tournament. Both vs Byun and Maru, he ends up building 7 overlords at once in early game.
Elazer overlords at 140 supply aren't game-ending, but Elazer overlords at 58 supply is ????
Dark BEAT Byun building Elazer ovies at 58 supply, which is even crazier. Shows how good other aspects of Dark's game really are.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
It annoys me how Dark never seems to improve on his mechanic and only gets worse. I understand being a dad means he has less time to play but doesn't his friends or coach call him out for this? It's such a simple thing to work on.
I can't fault Dark for his mechanics getting worse since he has a son just a few months old. Mechanics take a lot of practice to fix, and nobody has as much time to devote to anything when there's a 3 month old infant at home.
EDIT: I enjoy seeing real analysis going on at the analysis desk! Props to ZG!
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
It annoys me how Dark never seems to improve on his mechanic and only gets worse. I understand being a dad means he has less time to play but doesn't his friends or coach call him out for this? It's such a simple thing to work on.
Imagine the chores he would have gotten in a team house... He needs to get baby night shifts for every supply block, he will learn very quickly
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
Dark got supply blocked on 58 over and over this tournament. Both vs Byun and Maru, he ends up building 7 overlords at once in early game.
Elazer overlords at 140 supply aren't game-ending, but Elazer overlords at 58 supply is ????
Dark BEAT Byun building Elazer ovies at 58 supply, which is even crazier. Shows how good other aspects of Dark's game really are.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
It annoys me how Dark never seems to improve on his mechanic and only gets worse. I understand being a dad means he has less time to play but doesn't his friends or coach call him out for this? It's such a simple thing to work on.
I can't fault Dark for his mechanics getting worse since he has a son just a few months old. Mechanics take a lot of practice to fix, and nobody has as much time to devote to anything when there's a 3 month old infant at home.
EDIT: I enjoy seeing real analysis going on at the analysis desk! Props to ZG!
I partially agree - late game larva issues/supply issues would take a lot of effort to fix, and Dark is probably busy + on the verge of military anyways. By the time he's much better mechanically he might be gone, even if he had the time.
On the other hand, 58 supply supply blocks are a build order issue more than anything else. Yes, Dark dropped a few OVs in some of the games, but throughout all the early games he's played in his life Dark has certainly seen those situations hundreds of times.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
Dark got supply blocked on 58 over and over this tournament. Both vs Byun and Maru, he ends up building 7 overlords at once in early game.
Elazer overlords at 140 supply aren't game-ending, but Elazer overlords at 58 supply is ????
Dark BEAT Byun building Elazer ovies at 58 supply, which is even crazier. Shows how good other aspects of Dark's game really are.
On June 03 2024 03:10 geokilla wrote:
On June 03 2024 03:07 Tsubbi wrote:
On June 03 2024 03:05 MJG wrote:
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
It annoys me how Dark never seems to improve on his mechanic and only gets worse. I understand being a dad means he has less time to play but doesn't his friends or coach call him out for this? It's such a simple thing to work on.
I can't fault Dark for his mechanics getting worse since he has a son just a few months old. Mechanics take a lot of practice to fix, and nobody has as much time to devote to anything when there's a 3 month old infant at home.
EDIT: I enjoy seeing real analysis going on at the analysis desk! Props to ZG!
I partially agree - late game larva issues/supply issues would take a lot of effort to fix, and Dark is probably busy + on the verge of military anyways. By the time he's much better mechanically he might be gone, even if he had the time.
On the other hand, 58 supply supply blocks are a build order issue more than anything else. Yes, Dark dropped a few OVs in some of the games, but throughout all the early games he's played in his life Dark has certainly seen those situations hundreds of times.
I agree that getting supply blocked at 58 is particularly bad.
On June 03 2024 03:04 Tsubbi wrote: 7 overlords in production when the push arrives, peak dark performance
It's actually great to see this get punished for once.
Terran and Protoss players don't get away with making 7 supply buildings at once so early in the game, and I'm kinda sick of hearing casters laugh it off as if it's not a massive flaw.
It's just dark, had a long 52 one as well during the droning phase. It really hurts to watch this messy play
Dark got supply blocked on 58 over and over this tournament. Both vs Byun and Maru, he ends up building 7 overlords at once in early game.
Elazer overlords at 140 supply aren't game-ending, but Elazer overlords at 58 supply is ????
Dark BEAT Byun building Elazer ovies at 58 supply, which is even crazier. Shows how good other aspects of Dark's game really are.
I think this is true, but I think there's also a gap in that stage of the game were T/P are spending those ~700 minerals on additional Barracks/Gateways, and so Z can kinda get away with it...
On June 03 2024 02:56 Nasigil1 wrote: You cannot find a more typical Dark game than this one.
Sloppy mechanics. Supply blocked multiple times. Low drone count in mid game. Not enough lava. Looked dead in the water. Suddenly pull a massive counter attach out of nowhere. Creating chaos everywhere. Turned a standard macro game into a extremely scrappy disaster. Somehow win the game against the best TvZ player in the world.
Never change Dark.
Haha, yeah. That's Dark in a nutshell.
I genuinely find it somewhat baffling, though, that it still works so frequently, and even against the best players. Like, at this point, it's pretty much a given that once or twice a series, when Dark finds himself behind, he will try to derail the game into chaos and go for some wonky base-trade. He did the same thing against Cure, if I remember correctly. I'm not quite certain why his opponents so often do not have a proper response prepared. I'm not saying I know what that response is, but there must be one and it will doubtlessly be of use against Dark.
I have to say it's a bit disappointing that there are only 2 matches left already. It's such a better experience to have a full day of Starcraft with the quarters on the finals day. Unexpected as well after Katowice getting it right this year finally I thought that lesson was learned. Maybe there's some reason that it couldn't be helped in which case no hatin' but that doesn't change the sense of anti climax you get (or at least I do) when only having 3 matches.
On June 03 2024 03:31 TheLordofAwesome wrote: What do people think about TvZ on this map? Seems very T favored in lategame, but what about earlier?
Did anyone see what Serral vetoed? Vetoes were only shown for a very short time on stream earlier.
Playing it feels very good for terran at least (as a low level player), not quite sure about pro players, but the third is relatively open so maybe it's not as bad for zerg as it seems at first glance.
On June 03 2024 03:30 Penev wrote: I have to say it's a bit disappointing that there are only 2 matches left already. It's such a better experience to have a full day of Starcraft with the quarters on the finals day. Unexpected as well after Katowice getting it right this year finally I thought that lesson was learned. Maybe there's some reason that it couldn't be helped in which case no hatin' but that doesn't change the sense of anti climax you get (or at least I do) when only having 3 matches.
Having long final days benefits more defensive players and factions,as after 2 series both players might be somewhat tired and shown most of their builds / strategies. And then final series become "who will make fewer mistakes" compeition instead of "who will make more cool plays or prepare more cool strategies". I know which one I personally prefer.
On June 03 2024 03:27 BluemoonSC wrote: Lord please grant us a serral Maru finals so I can enjoy the GOAT thread discussion for several more weeks
I think the maximum controversial outcome is Oliveira beats Serral, then loses to Maru in the finals. So that will probably be what happens.
I was gonna say Maru 4-0 over Serral would grant us debates for months on end, but you are right, Oliveira 3-0 over Serral, and then Maru 4-0 over Oliveira would bless us with the still greater collective meltdown.
On June 03 2024 03:30 Penev wrote: I have to say it's a bit disappointing that there are only 2 matches left already. It's such a better experience to have a full day of Starcraft with the quarters on the finals day. Unexpected as well after Katowice getting it right this year finally I thought that lesson was learned. Maybe there's some reason that it couldn't be helped in which case no hatin' but that doesn't change the sense of anti climax you get (or at least I do) when only having 3 matches.
If they start from quarter-final on the final day
1) It's going to be a very long day, especially for the player coming from quarter-final #1 2) You can't really prepare for the potential grand final opponent
Having long final days benefits more defensive players and factions,as after 2 series both players might be somewhat tired and shown most of their builds / strategies. And then final series become "who will make fewer mistakes" compeition instead of "who will make more cool plays or prepare more cool strategies". I know which one I personally prefer.
It's just one BO5 more for the players. Besides you really only get true preparation when there's a week between matches like in GSL, Which is great to watch, I agree with that.
Holy fuck Serral vs Oliveira G1... some mindblowing stuff from Serral. Now you know why Chinese fans call him "Overmind' He truly plays like he's controlling every unit with psychic energy.
On June 03 2024 03:49 stilt wrote: It's been a while since I watched some sc2 and holy shit, this map seems so hard for z
Dynasty may be worse for Z ( there's an in base gold with an exposed mineral line that Terran can take but Z can't.)
I do wonder if Serral would veto differently against Maru though. If you expect the game to go long the gold becomes less impactful (and once it gets mined out it offers an attack path.) Oliveira on the other hand probably has some filthy marine push taking advantage of the gold.
Anyways having 1-2 maps in the pool that sucks for a race is fine, especially with 9 maps. Do wish vetos were veto veto veto veto in bo5 though
On June 03 2024 03:30 Penev wrote: I have to say it's a bit disappointing that there are only 2 matches left already. It's such a better experience to have a full day of Starcraft with the quarters on the finals day. Unexpected as well after Katowice getting it right this year finally I thought that lesson was learned. Maybe there's some reason that it couldn't be helped in which case no hatin' but that doesn't change the sense of anti climax you get (or at least I do) when only having 3 matches.
Having long final days benefits more defensive players and factions,as after 2 series both players might be somewhat tired and shown most of their builds / strategies. And then final series become "who will make fewer mistakes" compeition instead of "who will make more cool plays or prepare more cool strategies". I know which one I personally prefer.
It's just one BO5 more for the players. Besides you really only get true preparation when there's a week between matches like in GSL, Which is great to watch, I agree with that.
This might become reminiscent of Kato'24 where Serral also played mainly ling/bane against Clem and reserved his other strategies for the grand final against Maru.
On June 03 2024 04:01 WombaT wrote: Nice game from Oliveira but he almost threw the big advantage he’d earned away, I’m not sure he can get away with that again this series
I think the pullback was likely because Oliveira's played Serral enough to know Serral likes to do ling backstabs. Turned out to be the right call probably, since he was able to deflect the runby.
On June 03 2024 04:29 Pandain wrote: what happened in the last three minutes? Went AFK, Oliveira seemed in perfect shape and now Serral looks like he has a monstrous lead
I think it was still pretty close, Serral was only about ~8k behind on resources lost (last time they checked at least) and had mined a lot from contested bases
On June 03 2024 04:29 Pandain wrote: what happened in the last three minutes? Went AFK, Oliveira seemed in perfect shape and now Serral looks like he has a monstrous lead
He took a bad fight on creep, probably underestimating the number of corrupter.
It's interesting how when late game starts, Reynor seems in denial and keeps head butting, but Serral immediately starts trying to mine peripheral bases.
Terran still probably wins late game with perfect play, but Serral's approach looks much better.
On June 03 2024 04:29 Pandain wrote: what happened in the last three minutes? Went AFK, Oliveira seemed in perfect shape and now Serral looks like he has a monstrous lead
I think it was still pretty close, Serral was only about ~8k behind on resources lost (last time they checked at least) and had mined a lot from contested bases
But yeah Oli threw by going on creep.
I think the resources lost gap grew a lot in the minute leading up to the big fight, it was 7k after the fight but it was a terrible fight for Oli
On June 03 2024 04:33 Die4Ever wrote: I wanna know why the stage behind us has much higher volume than ours, someone tell the sound guy to turn up our speakers here
CS2 stage is at least 5X larger than SC2 stage according to to the audience shots on stream. Naturally the sound from CS2 will be louder than SC2. Just on YouTube alone, I saw a high of 100k viewers for CS2 finals right now. Combined viewers on Twitch + YouTube for SC2 isn't even 25% of the amount of viewers watching YouTube.
On June 03 2024 04:33 Die4Ever wrote: I wanna know why the stage behind us has much higher volume than ours, someone tell the sound guy to turn up our speakers here
CS2 stage is at least 5X larger than SC2 stage according to to the audience shots on stream. Naturally the sound from CS2 will be louder than SC2. Just on YouTube alone, I saw a high of 100k viewers for CS2 finals right now. Combined viewers on Twitch + YouTube for SC2 isn't even 25% of the amount of viewers watching YouTube.
On June 03 2024 04:33 Die4Ever wrote: I wanna know why the stage behind us has much higher volume than ours, someone tell the sound guy to turn up our speakers here
CS2 stage is at least 5X larger than SC2 stage according to to the audience shots on stream. Naturally the sound from CS2 will be louder than SC2. Just on YouTube alone, I saw a high of 100k viewers for CS2 finals right now. Combined viewers on Twitch + YouTube for SC2 isn't even 25% of the amount of viewers watching YouTube.
I'm not talking about CS2, they're in their own separate arena so I can't hear them from here. I don't even know what's behind us, I don't see a game right now. EDIT: I think it's just fighting games in general, Tekken is starting next back there
I did visit the CS2 arena yesterday and it's really awesome, rivaling Blizzcon's arena. But yeah they're not the issue here.
On June 03 2024 05:03 TentativePanda wrote: There can only be one winner (Maru, because if Serral "wins" it doesnt count)
I’d say it’s the opposite here, Serral’s coming off being more inactive and has done better than many expected, so if he wins it’s a big bonus and if he loses people will say he isn’t in his peak shape
On June 03 2024 05:03 TentativePanda wrote: There can only be one winner (Maru, because if Serral "wins" it doesnt count)
what? Serral is in a perfect situation. If he wins: OMG he wins despite being doing his military service. If he loses: nvm boys doesnt really count cuz Serral is just part time.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
On June 03 2024 05:02 Brutaxilos wrote: Serral not going to go and shake Oliveira's hand? lol
I think Serral is the only player who walks over to his opponents to give the handshake mostly when he himself loses. See, for example, him congratulating Shin at Kato'23 and Clem at Atlanta'23.
On June 03 2024 05:03 TentativePanda wrote: There can only be one winner (Maru, because if Serral "wins" it doesnt count)
what? Serral is in a perfect situation. If he wins: OMG he wins despite being doing his military service. If he loses: nvm boys doesnt really count cuz Serral is just part time.
I believe he's referring to that goat thread where it appeared as though serral's latest "WC" win didn't count.
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Maru is better at micro/macro than Oli for sure, but I think Oli has a bit more killer instinct? I don't see Maru stimmingg on creep like Oli does, for example, and if Oli hadn't done that some of the pushes against Reynor/Serral wouldn't have worked.
Either way, I think the games will look very different between Serral and Maru.
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Either way, I think the games will look very different between Serral and Maru.
Yeah. I also suspect Serral has deliberately shown somewhat different styles against Oliveira than what he will play against Maru, as he did at Kato'24 against Clem and Maru on the same day.
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Maru is better at micro/macro than Oli for sure, but I think Oli has a bit more killer instinct? I don't see Maru stimmingg on creep like Oli does, for example, and if Oli hadn't done that some of the pushes against Reynor/Serral wouldn't have worked.
Either way, I think the games will look very different between Serral and Maru.
I find the players with the best luck against Serral are those that seem like they have super fast response times, so Clem, Reynor, MaxPax, and now Oliveira.
Imagine which players would be on top of responding to like multi-prong baneling drops in the mineral lines in the middle of a big fight.
Maru's strengths aren't so much that he has as fast responses, he's just got more mature control and decision making.
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Maru is better at micro/macro than Oli for sure, but I think Oli has a bit more killer instinct? I don't see Maru stimmingg on creep like Oli does, for example, and if Oli hadn't done that some of the pushes against Reynor/Serral wouldn't have worked.
Either way, I think the games will look very different between Serral and Maru.
3 of the games, including the 2 wins from Oliv, were 8-racks timing. So if Maru choose to do that build, he will hit the same way with aggressiveness. However, the the concern would be Serral just went for an Roach all-in and kill Maru earlier .
I think Maru is gonna have a better time against Serral with this map pool than the WC finals. He also seems really on form this time around; his games against an on-form herO yesterday were super impressive.
Either way, I feel spoiled getting to watch another SvM grand finals in such short order after we all waited so long for the first one to happen
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/Clem/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
100%. I also think that though the top player pool is smaller, a lot of the players who stuck around did so because they were really good (people like Creator/Shin/Bunny may be exceptions, I respect them a lot and hope they win tournaments before they have to retire though.)
At the same time, there were a lot more scary players back in the day who probably wouldn't win tournaments but could snipe top players, so I think tournaments in the past were harder to win.
Also GOAT vs BOAT (best of all time) are different debates, winning against people who have played SC2 as long as you is impressive no matter the objective skill level. I have no doubts that Serral is the BOAT, but he Rogue and Maru all have claims to GOAT.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
That's not really even an opinion. That's the absolute truth and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Well, that first 8 rax was pretty much picture-perfect. It was Clem-level of terran perfection. Maru hasn't quite matched that, tbh. What Maru is better at is lategame. Really shows Oli has been practicing very hard.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
That's not really even an opinion. That's the absolute truth and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
Noone is denying absolute skill going up, the thing is mostly about relative skill and competitiveness of the scene.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
Are there people still arguing this point?
current low GM ladder player will dominate kespa era, now imagine a pro going back in time..
Wol and kespa gave us some nice memories but in terms of skills, it’s relatively low compare to current games
No offense to wol players but if I time travel back in time. I would literally win everything in WOL and be the undisputed goat
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
Are there people still arguing this point?
current low GM ladder player will dominate kespa era, now imagine a pro going back in time..
Wol and kespa gave us some nice memories but in terms of skills, it’s relatively low compare to current games
No offense to wol players but if I time travel back in time. I would literally win everything in WOL and be the undisputed goat
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/Clem/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
On the other hand Dark for example is definitely playing more sloppy and makes more mistakes than his 2019 version, but he's still probably a top 5 player. Maru and Serral may indeed have reached a skill level no one before has, but the rest of the player field is weaker imo, both in absolute and relative skill.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/Clem/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
On the other hand Dark for example is definitely playing more sloppy and makes more mistakes than his 2019 version, but he's still probably a top 5 player. Maru and Serral may indeed have reached a skill level no one before has, but the rest of the player field is weaker imo, both in absolute and relative skill.
This is so profoundly wrong. Jesus Christ. The current era has players with APMs and eAPMs that the pre-2016 boys could only dream of. Back then when good splits happened, they were repeatedly highlighted as epic micro. Today, those splits are standard. Clem is splitting/microing his marines while macroing, even, which is stupidly hard and insane to even try to pull off. Levels of creep spread are miles apart, and it's harder to spread creep today than back then. Players have invented, and perfected so many strategies and builds. I don't think you've been going back to watch the old games, dude. Those guys were so much slower in comparison. Today's top players are doing multitasking that observers sometimes have a hard time keeping up with. That didn't use to happen.
If anyone thinks Jinro, early Scarlett, and Stephano had anything on today's top 4 Europeans, minus Serral, they are pretty ignorant...and Jinro and Scarlett both had deep runs in GSL.
On June 03 2024 05:56 dysenterymd wrote: Wild to see Serral veto Dynasty vs Oliveira and then Maru veto Dynasty against Serral (unless liquipedia is wrong.)
That's very interesting. Maybe he thinks Dynasty is a bad for late game starvation turtling.
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/Clem/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
On the other hand Dark for example is definitely playing more sloppy and makes more mistakes than his 2019 version, but he's still probably a top 5 player. Maru and Serral may indeed have reached a skill level no one before has, but the rest of the player field is weaker imo, both in absolute and relative skill.
This is so profoundly wrong. Jesus Christ. The current era has players with APMs and eAPMs that the pre-2016 boys could only dream of. Back then when good splits happened, they were repeatedly highlighted as epic micro. Today, those splits are standard. Clem is splitting/microing his marines while macroing, even, which is stupidly hard and insane to even try to pull off. Levels of creep spread are miles apart, and it's harder to spread creep today than back then. Players have invented, and perfected so many strategies and builds. I don't think you've been going back to watch the old games, dude. Those guys were so much slower in comparison. Today's top players are doing multitasking that observers sometimes have a hard time keeping up with. That didn't use to happen.
If anyone thinks Jinro, early Scarlett, and Stephano had anything on today's top 4 Europeans, minus Serral, they are pretty ignorant...and Jinro and Scarlett both had deep runs in GSL.
I'm honestly amazed that you put this much effort into replying to a post you didn't even read
Great mind game, Serral thought that Maru would chill and go for late game because Ghost River is great for split map, so insane greed on a tiny map worked?
Feels like Serral can just do whatever he wants vs Maru.. makes no sense. Maru is the best Terran vs every other Zerg but does worse than other Terrans vs Serral.
On June 03 2024 06:15 dysenterymd wrote: Great mind game, Serral thought that Maru would chill and go for late game because Ghost River is great for split map, so insane greed on a tiny map worked?
At this point Serral can go pee in the middle of the map because Maru will crumble as soon as Serral looks at him
Maru keep doing insane macro build with lots of building and CC, but cutting army production and tech is just plain stupid. Who told him Serral would let him get up to full 5 bases mining and techout?
On June 03 2024 05:05 Pandain wrote: It's crazy how much better Serral/Maru are than everyone else right now, although Olli put up an absolute hell of a tournament
If everyone peaks at ESWC (big if) it could be super exciting, Serral/Maru/Clem/Reynor/herO/Dark/Oliverira all playing at their best could make for one of the best tournaments ever.
I will always hold the opinion that, even if the whole pro scene of sc2 is a shell of its past glory, the top level players (Serral/Maru/herO/Clem/and probably Oliveira when he's on fire like this) are better than anyone in the history. Drop them back into KeSPA days via time machine and give them some time to adapt to the meta and they will crush everybody.
Winning a tournament is still an big achievement today because you still have to go through all these monsters.
On the other hand Dark for example is definitely playing more sloppy and makes more mistakes than his 2019 version, but he's still probably a top 5 player. Maru and Serral may indeed have reached a skill level no one before has, but the rest of the player field is weaker imo, both in absolute and relative skill.
This is so profoundly wrong. Jesus Christ. The current era has players with APMs and eAPMs that the pre-2016 boys could only dream of. Back then when good splits happened, they were repeatedly highlighted as epic micro. Today, those splits are standard. Clem is splitting/microing his marines while macroing, even, which is stupidly hard and insane to even try to pull off. Levels of creep spread are miles apart, and it's harder to spread creep today than back then. Players have invented, and perfected so many strategies and builds. I don't think you've been going back to watch the old games, dude. Those guys were so much slower in comparison. Today's top players are doing multitasking that observers sometimes have a hard time keeping up with. That didn't use to happen.
If anyone thinks Jinro, early Scarlett, and Stephano had anything on today's top 4 Europeans, minus Serral, they are pretty ignorant...and Jinro and Scarlett both had deep runs in GSL.
I'm honestly amazed that you put this much effort into replying to a post you didn't even read
"Maru and Serral may indeed have reached a skill level no one before has, but the rest of the player field is weaker imo, both in absolute and relative skill."
I was obviously replying to this assertion. The rest of the field has definitely gotten better, Dark included, even if he doesn't think so. Are you going to keep pretending I can't read, or will you actually have something that isn't blatantly clueless to add?
Maru has had a few good series against Serral, but he seems to just absolutely white flag most of the time. Feels like a mental thing, cuz there was a brief time where he just demoralized Serral with ghost-mech/air
On June 03 2024 06:27 mintyminmus wrote: I think Maru's macro is just slower. He is just naturally down 20-30 supply by minute 8-10 and auto lose to any aggression Serral does.
On June 03 2024 06:27 mintyminmus wrote: I think Maru's macro is just slower. He is just naturally down 20-30 supply by minute 8-10 and auto lose to any aggression Serral does.
Yeah I think the same thing.
yeah it feels like Serral's macro is a bit faster than Maru is used to. but also Serral's defense is stronger so the things that Maru usually does to slow Zergs down aren't working, which contributes to the macro gap
On June 03 2024 06:27 mintyminmus wrote: I think Maru's macro is just slower. He is just naturally down 20-30 supply by minute 8-10 and auto lose to any aggression Serral does.
Yeah I think the same thing.
I think maru is quite gimmicky (I know hes won 8 GSLs lol) but serral just has really good scouting and just spots maru coming all the time. I've seen so many other players get "caught out" by maru and serral just doesn't.
Did they just give a special GOAT trophy to Serral
Edit: okay it's the special one for 10 ESL. They mentioned multiple times "how can anyone doubt this man to be the greatest of all time", they are taking the TL series personally lol
I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
maybe he can go to europe for some weeks in vitality bootcamp and practise with eu zergs
Seriously Maru need to look at his own build order at this point, the fact that hes ALWAYS die to a max-out army push while being down 30-40 army supply is just stupid. Hes trying to get more workers, extra CC and additional upgrade at the same time bit him in the ass too many times and he still hasnt learned. Onsyde need to address it, stop wiping it away like Maru would figure it out eventually, because he hasnt.
On June 03 2024 06:37 jack_less wrote: part-time player. terran favorite game state. and Serral still beat the “GOAT” 4-0. GG unfortunate... next Zerg nerf again.
Fact
But the best part will be reading all the crying “zerg is op” comments
Before this tournament there was no balance whine, but once Serral’s shows up all a sudden “Zerg is too overpowered”
Goat came in and took a dump on everyone, left with 20k, then casually go back and continue his service for his country
On June 03 2024 06:35 StasisField wrote: But he's the greatest guys trust me!!!
Serral is a batter player than Maru, the math and eye test prove it. What is interesting is that it feels like we have a Maru/Cure dynamic happening between Serral/Maru. At the same time, it feels like Maru and Serral are a cut above everyone else to a degree I don't think we've seen before, so they're going to play a lot at global events. We've seen players that are hardstuck against Maru in Code S, but if Serral has solved Maru then we're going to be seeing a lot of 4-0s,
On June 03 2024 06:40 tigera6 wrote: Seriously Maru need to look at his own build order at this point, the fact that hes ALWAYS die to a max-out army push while being down 30-40 army supply is just stupid. Hes trying to get more workers, extra CC and additional upgrade at the same time bit him in the ass too many times and he still hasnt learned. Onsyde need to address it, stop wiping it away like Maru would figure it out eventually, because he hasnt.
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
I am patiently awaits those people that still insist "GSL is harder, Serral needs to come to Korea to prove himself"
The entirety of Korean Starcraft needs to prove themselves worthy of Serral's attention right now. Oliveira was by far his biggest challenge this tournament, while Shin/herO/Maru was just cakewalks.
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
Oliveira practices with Serral and Reynor all the time my dude. That's why he looked so sharp this tournament, he's been sparring with the best.
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
On June 03 2024 06:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote: At this point, I have to say that right now I find SC2 to be a far more exciting game when Serral is NOT playing.
I will say, shout out and respect to Oliveira for proving against all the naysayers that he's still an absolutely world-class player when it counts. and for giving Serral the hardest time of anyone.
The entirety of Korean Starcraft needs to prove themselves worthy of Serral's attention right now. Oliveira was by far his biggest challenge this tournament, while Shin/herO/Maru was just cakewalks.
maru, her0, Shin, cure are going for a year to play in ESL Europe.
I think it's pretty cool that ESL is doing career milestone trophies, but including EPT/DHM Europe is pretty dicey cause Oliveira is also at 10 if you include regionals.
Obv there's some subjective lines you have to draw when you're handing out trophies like this (I think it's ridiculous that GomTV included their "world championship" as part of MVP's G5L), but it feels icky and bad optics to say only the EU regional "counts."
Ofc they can just solve this by awarding Oliveira his own E10L trophy at the EWC
On June 03 2024 06:51 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty cool that ESL is doing career milestone trophies, but including EPT/DHM Europe is pretty dicey cause Oliveira is also at 10 in that case
On June 03 2024 06:51 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty cool that ESL is doing career milestone trophies, but including EPT/DHM Europe is pretty dicey cause Oliveira is also at 10 in that case
they just want to hype up their fav player, do not look too much into it
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
maybe he can go to europe for some weeks in vitality bootcamp and practise with eu zergs
Honestly yeah, playing Serral on ladder daily could help him get past the mental block.
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
Doesn't that kinda prove the point? Oliveira apparently needs to practice against Serral with some kind of ridiculous ping for both of them to get decent practice against hte other race. Bit weird for Serral (but maybe none of the Euro terrans want to play custom games, or it's his version of community service), but Oliveira has Dark on his team, but there's not really anybody else. Rex is probably the best zerg near China, and that is... not great
On June 03 2024 06:51 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty cool that ESL is doing career milestone trophies, but including EPT/DHM Europe is pretty dicey cause Oliveira is also at 10 in that case
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
Doesn't that kinda prove the point? Oliveira apparently needs to practice against Serral with some kind of ridiculous ping for both of them to get decent practice against hte other race. Bit weird for Serral (but maybe none of the Euro terrans want to play custom games, or it's his version of community service), but Oliveira has Dark on his team, but there's not really anybody else. Rex is probably the best zerg near China, and that is... not great
oh yeah, I think for Maru playing more games vs Serral wirthout such high stakes will help wonders to alleviate the mental block and finally play at his 100%
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
Doesn't that kinda prove the point? Oliveira apparently needs to practice against Serral with some kind of ridiculous ping for both of them to get decent practice against hte other race. Bit weird for Serral (but maybe none of the Euro terrans want to play custom games, or it's his version of community service), but Oliveira has Dark on his team, but there's not really anybody else. Rex is probably the best zerg near China, and that is... not great
oh yeah, I think for Maru playing more games vs Serral wirthout such high stakes will help wonders to alleviate the mental block and finally play at his 100%
For sure Maru needs to find a way to play Serral on a daily basis
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
Doesn't that kinda prove the point? Oliveira apparently needs to practice against Serral with some kind of ridiculous ping for both of them to get decent practice against hte other race. Bit weird for Serral (but maybe none of the Euro terrans want to play custom games, or it's his version of community service), but Oliveira has Dark on his team, but there's not really anybody else. Rex is probably the best zerg near China, and that is... not great
oh yeah, I think for Maru playing more games vs Serral wirthout such high stakes will help wonders to alleviate the mental block and finally play at his 100%
For sure Maru needs to find a way to play Serral on a daily basis
On June 03 2024 06:51 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty cool that ESL is doing career milestone trophies, but including EPT/DHM Europe is pretty dicey cause Oliveira is also at 10 if you include regionals.
Obv there's some subjective lines you have to draw when you're handing out trophies like this (I think it's ridiculous that GomTV included their "world championship" as part of MVP's G5L), but it feels icky and bad optics to say only the EU regional "counts."
Ofc they can just solve this by awarding Oliveira his own E10L trophy at the EWC
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
Doesn't that kinda prove the point? Oliveira apparently needs to practice against Serral with some kind of ridiculous ping for both of them to get decent practice against hte other race. Bit weird for Serral (but maybe none of the Euro terrans want to play custom games, or it's his version of community service), but Oliveira has Dark on his team, but there's not really anybody else. Rex is probably the best zerg near China, and that is... not great
oh yeah, I think for Maru playing more games vs Serral wirthout such high stakes will help wonders to alleviate the mental block and finally play at his 100%
Maru about to bootcamp in Finland in ManyRegrets' house
On June 03 2024 06:38 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I do hope that Maru can think about why he lost to Serral at Kato and Dallas and come back in better shape for EWC.
On the other hand I do think that Maru is probably unable to practice with Zergs of Serral's caliber. Dark, Solar, Ragnarok are obviously not on Serral's level. I think back in 2021 or earlier, playing all those games vs Rogue and Dark (who was better back then imo) was good practice for playing against Serral. And if that is part of the problem, I don't really see a way to solve it.
He's on a team with Solar, and pretty sure Reynor would be happy to spar with him as long as he's in Korea. If that isn't enough practice, I guess just pay Solar and Dark to archon mode against him
I mean... Oliveira doesn't have any Zerg worth playing against at all in China, and was far far sharper. Serral looked extremely vulnerable to the 8-rax. Maru took 1 attempt at an 8-rax and it was his halfhearted backup plan and looked absolutely awful. You aren't going to tell me that Maru cannot 8-rax. It's just Serral living in Maru's head at this point.
The desk and Olivera both said multiple times how olivera and serral practise together.
Doesn't that kinda prove the point? Oliveira apparently needs to practice against Serral with some kind of ridiculous ping for both of them to get decent practice against hte other race. Bit weird for Serral (but maybe none of the Euro terrans want to play custom games, or it's his version of community service), but Oliveira has Dark on his team, but there's not really anybody else. Rex is probably the best zerg near China, and that is... not great
oh yeah, I think for Maru playing more games vs Serral wirthout such high stakes will help wonders to alleviate the mental block and finally play at his 100%
Maru about to bootcamp in Finland in ManyRegrets' house
Lol yeah, Maru changing his ID to ManyRegrets and starting a team house for Koreans in Europe
The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
On June 03 2024 07:13 dysenterymd wrote: The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
no, it's only tournaments under ESL/DreamHack, both online and offline. Chobra listed all ten specifically during the presentation
3x EU regional champion (implied that this is DH/ESL only) 3x DH Masters Season champion 2x IEM Katowice champion 2x ESL Masters/Season champion
Regardless, Oliveira has 10+ under the same criteria, unless ESL explicitly says non-EU regionals are not real tournaments.
On June 03 2024 06:51 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty cool that ESL is doing career milestone trophies, but including EPT/DHM Europe is pretty dicey cause Oliveira is also at 10 if you include regionals.
Obv there's some subjective lines you have to draw when you're handing out trophies like this (I think it's ridiculous that GomTV included their "world championship" as part of MVP's G5L), but it feels icky and bad optics to say only the EU regional "counts."
Ofc they can just solve this by awarding Oliveira his own E10L trophy at the EWC
On June 03 2024 07:13 dysenterymd wrote: The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
no, it's only tournaments under ESL/DreamHack, both online and offline. Chobra listed all ten specifically during the presentation
Regardless, Oliveira has 10+ under the same criteria
Lol! Wait so do tournaments from 2018/2019 when Blizzard ran things not count? Because if they do Serral already won E10L.
Guess they just wanted to throw shade on the goat list.
On June 03 2024 07:13 dysenterymd wrote: The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
no, it's only tournaments under ESL/DreamHack, both online and offline. Chobra listed all ten specifically during the presentation
Regardless, Oliveira has 10+ under the same criteria
Lol! Wait so do tournaments from 2018/2019 when Blizzard ran things not count? Because if they do Serral already won E10L.
Guess they just wanted to throw shade on the goat list.
I'm surprised by how much impact the GOAT article series seems to have had on the community! I thought of it as a fun list that was one guy's opinion, but a lot of people seemed to think it was some kind of official endorsement or something from TL. And it might have even influenced ESL into creating this E10L thing.
Truly, Miz's articles are... the greatest GOAT list of all time.
On June 03 2024 07:13 dysenterymd wrote: The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
no, it's only tournaments under ESL/DreamHack, both online and offline. Chobra listed all ten specifically during the presentation
Regardless, Oliveira has 10+ under the same criteria
Lol! Wait so do tournaments from 2018/2019 when Blizzard ran things not count? Because if they do Serral already won E10L.
Guess they just wanted to throw shade on the goat list.
I'm surprised by how much impact the GOAT article series seems to have had on the community! I thought of it as a fun list that was one guy's opinion, but a lot of people seemed to think it was some kind of official endorsement or something from TL. And it might have even influenced ESL into creating this E10L thing.
Truly, Miz's articles are... the greatest GOAT list of all time.
Are we sure he's not just a compiler who racks up word count, but isn't actually the most dominant prose writer compared to stuchiu?
On June 03 2024 07:13 dysenterymd wrote: The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
no, it's only tournaments under ESL/DreamHack, both online and offline. Chobra listed all ten specifically during the presentation
Regardless, Oliveira has 10+ under the same criteria
Lol! Wait so do tournaments from 2018/2019 when Blizzard ran things not count? Because if they do Serral already won E10L.
Guess they just wanted to throw shade on the goat list.
I'm surprised by how much impact the GOAT article series seems to have had on the community! I thought of it as a fun list that was one guy's opinion, but a lot of people seemed to think it was some kind of official endorsement or something from TL. And it might have even influenced ESL into creating this E10L thing.
Truly, Miz's articles are... the greatest GOAT list of all time.
Are we sure he's not just a compiler who racks up word count, but isn't actually the most dominant prose writer compared to stuchiu?
On June 03 2024 07:19 Gescom wrote: People acting a fool over the E10L trophy is funny. This community, man.
GG Serral and everyone who brought it.
They shoulda just made it a "GJ Serral" trophy, instead of putting up this pretense of objective standards
It's good to create traditions and celebrate your own history, but revealing you don't know your own history in the process is just embarrassing.
Embarrassing and worrisome for an organization that is famous for making arbitrary decisions of seeding disregarding their own rules and also making brackets behind doors.
On June 03 2024 07:13 dysenterymd wrote: The ESL10 is sort of arbitrary, but I think it's being awarded for 10 offline victories? 4 WCS tournaments in 2018, 2 in 2019, 2 Katowice, and 2 ESL Masters. If it's just ESL tournaments Serral would have already won it with his 3 EU seasonal victories.
By those criterion, Oliveira has 1 and Special has 0.
no, it's only tournaments under ESL/DreamHack, both online and offline. Chobra listed all ten specifically during the presentation
3x EU regional champion (implied that this is DH/ESL only) 3x DH Masters Season champion 2x IEM Katowice champion 2x ESL Masters/Season champion
Regardless, Oliveira has 10+ under the same criteria, unless ESL explicitly says non-EU regionals are not real tournaments.
He did say international events and most of Oliveira's are from the China region so if we're being pedantic, Oliveira doesn't have 10 by those standards. I do agree that it's a bit silly though. Just call it a lifetime achievement award or something
Wait so why can Oliveria scrim against Serral but Maru can't? All 3 aren't teammates so it shouldn't matter? The time zone difference isn't that huge either.
On June 03 2024 07:44 geokilla wrote: Wait so why can Oliveria scrim against Serral but Maru can't? All 3 aren't teammates so it shouldn't matter? The time zone difference isn't that huge either.
I'm only vaguely aware of how it works but apparently Oliveira and some Chinese players have figured out a good VPN solution for playing to EU on reasonable-ish ping. Or at least that's what people say! Dunno why it's not more common for East Asia region players.
It’s funny how some people like to talk about "prep based tournament" all the time but every time Serral plays Maru, it's Serral that came prepared with map specific strategies and Maru looked completely clueless.
In Katowice he caught Maru's pants down with two Roach push games. This time it's the Ultra rush and the Nydus/Roach combo in last game. Maru on the other hand was like "just let me get to late game pls". Not even a proxy Barracks. Come on.
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maybe they're relying on Liquipedia "Premier" ranking, because European and NA qualifiers are counted as premier by Liquipedia, whereas other regions are counted as Major.
Why would ESL follow liquipedia's arbitrary tournament ranking? Who knows, but at least that could be an explanation.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Hello, Mr. Anti-Cringe. Could you please explain how Dark and other zergs are failing to "produce enough units to A-move into" Maru and Clem? Just curious of what the light of your mastered knowledge of the game balance could shine upon us cringy plebs.
On June 03 2024 07:56 Nasigil1 wrote: It’s funny how some people like to talk about "prep based tournament" all the time but every time Serral plays Maru, it's Serral that came prepared with map specific strategies and Maru looked completely clueless.
In Katowice he caught Maru's pants down with two Roach push games. This time it's the Ultra rush and the Nydus/Roach combo in last game. Maru on the other hand was like "just let me get to late game pls". Not even a proxy Barracks. Come on.
The narrative only works for GSL
Maru getting stomped by Serral pretty standard. Maru is a tier below Serral for years.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Crying about Zerg is OP is cringe. Terran has been proven to be the easiest and most forgiving race for years
Maru is hardly world class in anything beside turtling Micro and macro Clem/Byun/Oliveria are miles better than Maru. Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Well, that first 8 rax was pretty much picture-perfect. It was Clem-level of terran perfection. Maru hasn't quite matched that, tbh. What Maru is better at is lategame. Really shows Oli has been practicing very hard.
Oh, how well my comment aged. Maru indeed couldn't match Oli/Clem's early-mid games. Or, at least, he didn't even try to; he was trying so hard to survive until lategame, where it is his bread and butter. Quick correction of the quoted comment: I meant that Maru's lategame is better than Oli's, not better than Clem's; they're roughly equal in that aspect.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Hello, Mr. Anti-Cringe. Could you please explain how Dark and other zergs are failing to "produce enough units to A-move into" Maru and Clem? Just curious of what the light of your mastered knowledge of the game balance could shine upon us cringy plebs.
Dark? he is too busy teching to infestors on 35 army supply
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Hello, Mr. Anti-Cringe. Could you please explain how Dark and other zergs are failing to "produce enough units to A-move into" Maru and Clem? Just curious of what the light of your mastered knowledge of the game balance could shine upon us cringy plebs.
Dark? he is too busy teching to infestors on 35 army supply
I see, I see! Man, if only he had you as his coach, he would've realized that all he had to do was mass units and a-move. Please, someone, let Dark know about this brilliant Strategerie, so that Bliz's intern could get around to nerfing zerg again after Dark snatches all the GSLs from Maru!
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
On June 03 2024 07:56 Nasigil1 wrote: It’s funny how some people like to talk about "prep based tournament" all the time but every time Serral plays Maru, it's Serral that came prepared with map specific strategies and Maru looked completely clueless.
In Katowice he caught Maru's pants down with two Roach push games. This time it's the Ultra rush and the Nydus/Roach combo in last game. Maru on the other hand was like "just let me get to late game pls". Not even a proxy Barracks. Come on.
I mean, that's kinda exactly the point that argument is trying to make, for what it's worth.
i knew you do not fuck with the Finnish military at this point it's obvious that they have updated and tweaked the firmware in the past weeks and i suspect they even upgraded the hardware
Serral good unit again, no one a-moves like him <3
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
I mean, it definetly could be a problem, but I doubt it. AoE 2 got dominated by Viper for years and interest was growing, not declining.
On June 03 2024 06:38 Nasigil1 wrote: Did they just give a special GOAT trophy to Serral
Edit: okay it's the special one for 10 ESL. They mentioned multiple times "how can anyone doubt this man to be the greatest of all time", they are taking the TL series personally lol
As a herO fan, I feel like herO is to Maru is as Maru is to Serral. Although it’s usually close hero can never push over the edge to win a series, even if he’s ahead.
Also, maybe it could be useful to split the GOAT debate into 2 categories: BOAT vs GOAT Best of all time: pure skill level I think it’s Serral Greatest of all time: purely based on achievements
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
On June 03 2024 06:51 Captain Peabody wrote: I will say, shout out and respect to Oliveira for proving against all the naysayers that he's still an absolutely world-class player when it counts. and for giving Serral the hardest time of anyone.
There should be a "Giving Serral the hardest time" trophy from now on.
So other players have a real chance to win a trophy
For Maru to improve, he first has to stop talking about balance... the last interview that crank did... he complained that the infestor. He didn't even talk about the other 3 games he lost where his selection of Builds was not the best (3 CC against scouted 2 base Zerg?? What is that?... IEM finals) if he is not able to see his mistakes he will never be able to beat him
On the other hand, Serral plays totally different against Maru... if we compare how he played with Oli... it is another world... Serral plays the Player in front of him... Maru only does what works best for him and hopes that his opponent Lets him . with lack of impressive scout. If it is for preparation ufff Serral gave a master class on the use of different Builds, micro and macro. Maru looked scared and completely lost, because he didn't know what could come from Serral.
please Maru... we don't want another final like this... TT
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
I definitely do not think that this is the case right now. But maybe if he continues to dominate for another year or something. Not sure
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
For me it has become an addiction...
If he doesnt win anymore, i go through withdrawl. The world simply doesnt seem right no more.
It only gets to normal when he wins again. Idont want him to win... I NEED him to win.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
For me it has become an addiction...
If he doesnt win anymore, i go through withdrawl. The world simply doesnt seem right no more.
It only gets to normal when he wins again. Idont want him to win... I NEED him to win.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game (1/3? forget which one - the late game one) and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
What? The games where Serral won were the close ones. He had to fight hard with every thing he had to grind out those three very close wins. It's the 2 games Oli won with 8rax that's the easy ones.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game 2 and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5
Oliveira objectively won game 2. did you even watch the games lol
On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote: I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did
Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in.
Well, that first 8 rax was pretty much picture-perfect. It was Clem-level of terran perfection. Maru hasn't quite matched that, tbh. What Maru is better at is lategame. Really shows Oli has been practicing very hard.
Oh, how well my comment aged. Maru indeed couldn't match Oli/Clem's early-mid games. Or, at least, he didn't even try to; he was trying so hard to survive until lategame, where it is his bread and butter. Quick correction of the quoted comment: I meant that Maru's lategame is better than Oli's, not better than Clem's; they're roughly equal in that aspect.
Maru can do it obviously, seen it enough times but he’s never really been a relentless, brutal pushing machine like Inno in his peak, or hugely ballsy in that regard like a Byun. Plus, whatever the reason the odd pocket build he’ll whip out and frequently kill every other Zerg just rarely seems to work versus Serral
It feels you have to do that and really take risks, or alternatively go mental like Clem where he’s absolutely everywhere. But nobody but Clem can play that particular style as well, and despite having a relatively good record he’s got a losing one versus Serral as well.
It feels to me that you have to do things you’re not really ‘supposed’ to do to get an edge. If you play ‘properly’ Serral’s StarCraft brain can make the requisite calculations and hold, even if it’s tight.
Oliver went balls to the wall at times running across creep to get into Serral that little bit quicker, and he had some reward but it’s high risk stuff indeed.
It feels we’re in some kind of rock/paper/scissors scenario where other top Zergs can’t stop Maru getting to late game, or break him when he gets there, but Maru can’t stop Serral killing him before he can get into that stage, while other Terrans have (slightly) more joy against Serral by focusing less hardcore on getting to late game, but are themselves weaker relatively versus other top Zergs.
Maru still looks untouchable against non-Serral Zergs when he’s on it, more bulletproof by far than even a Clem despite his having more joy against Serral
Probably a bunch of stylistic quirks all in action.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Yep.
I also think Serral's relative absence for prolonged periods makes him even more of a crowd puller. You can see Dark, herO, Clem, and so on every week in the cups as well as in all other tournaments there are. Serral, in contrast, goes underground for months, playing a single forgettable series in WTL, only to turn up and dominate the rest of the scene in the biggest tournament since his last appearance. The bulk of the viewership loves such stories.
On June 03 2024 08:58 WombaT wrote: non-Serral Zergs
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of watching him win. :/
On June 03 2024 08:53 Gantz023 wrote: For Maru to improve, he first has to stop talking about balance... the last interview that crank did... he complained that the infestor. He didn't even talk about the other 3 games he lost where his selection of Builds was not the best (3 CC against scouted 2 base Zerg?? What is that?... IEM finals) if he is not able to see his mistakes he will never be able to beat him
On the other hand, Serral plays totally different against Maru... if we compare how he played with Oli... it is another world... Serral plays the Player in front of him... Maru only does what works best for him and hopes that his opponent Lets him . with lack of impressive scout. If it is for preparation ufff Serral gave a master class on the use of different Builds, micro and macro. Maru looked scared and completely lost, because he didn't know what could come from Serral.
please Maru... we don't want another final like this... TT
In my opinion
Maru knows what he’s doing, if anything he’s stepped up a level in this regard in recent years, which I think does go overlooked just because Serral has his number lately.
He’s been ridiculously consistent versus the rest of the field, mixes it up quite a lot for opponents and whatnot.
Case in point recent GSLs where Stats and Classic were having joy with carrier builds so he just went and killed them, but played totally differently against a player like herO
I just think it’s a combo of Serral having no real exploitable weaknesses, and being just as good as Maru. He can’t really get big edges through prep, and he can’t just go and outplay Serral and make that work. And he can do 1 or both of those against basically every other player in the world
NBA was at its peak when MJ plays. Ironically, having a GOAT dominating the scene is good for the sports' popularity, it's easier for casuals to come in and root for the obvious best player, it's also fun to root for the mighty to fall to underdogs, the storylines just write themselves. If you think SC2 is "dead game" right now, I can assure you it'd be only more dead if Serral's miraculous rise in 2018 didn't happen.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game 2 and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5
Oliveira objectively won game 2. did you even watch the games lol
So from your comments we can take it that you neither watched Serral/Oliveira nor the Grand Finals? Got it.
On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote: the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2
Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations
in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose?
Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game 2 and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5
Oliveira objectively won game 2. did you even watch the games lol
See my edit but you could have figured it out from the context
On June 03 2024 05:18 Kitai wrote: I think Maru is gonna have a better time against Serral with this map pool than the WC finals. He also seems really on form this time around; his games against an on-form herO yesterday were super impressive.
Oof, just got off work, looks like I was super wrong
So the two best players of the tournament were Serral and Serral's practice partner. Makes me wonder how many times Oliveira 8-raxed Serral during practice.
I would like future interviews of Clem and Oliveira to have questions on how much they practice, and whether it gives them hand discomforts. We already know Maru suffers this, but I'm not sure how well Clem/Oli fares in this regard. I've seen Reynor flick his wrist after games, and he's definitely one of the fastest players.
soooooooo much zerg! sooooooo many banelings! sooooo much left over! wowwww. what a game! dominating macro! he built his drones soooooooo much better than the terran built his SCVs! through chokes, through tank lines, through planetaries - doesn't matter! the terran simply had no answer!
On June 03 2024 09:52 argonautdice wrote: So the two best players of the tournament were Serral and Serral's practice partner. Makes me wonder how many times Oliveira 8-raxed Serral during practice.
Some guy™ on Reddit wrote that Oliveira told the Chinese community that his recent practice sessions with Serral went relatively well, as in, Oliveira fared better than in some periods of the past year, where he would go 20-120.
On June 03 2024 09:52 argonautdice wrote: So the two best players of the tournament were Serral and Serral's practice partner. Makes me wonder how many times Oliveira 8-raxed Serral during practice.
Some guy™ on Reddit wrote that Oliveira told the Chinese community that his recent practice sessions with Serral went relatively well, as in, Oliveira fared better than in some periods of the past year, where he would go 20-120.
Stellewind? He's on here, too. Here's his whole comment:
{I wasn't surprised really. I am Chinese so I got a lot of second hand Oliveira information in Chinese streams. He practiced with Serral all the time, and is able to frequently take maps off him in practice now. Don't laugh, considering he admits some time last year he went 10-220 against Serral in practice for a month, this is quite an improvement.
He used to say he has no hope against Serral all the time, but recently he's been saying "I actually might have a chance", based on the practice experience.
I am happy that he proved himself a world champ level player again, especially with Maru's final as a comparison immediately after. Oliveira's series against Reynor and Serral in this tournament are some of the highest level TvZ in years, right up there with those Serral vs Clem series. It was a really hard fought battle, Serral had to grind out all 3 wins with every thing he had.}
On June 03 2024 09:52 argonautdice wrote: So the two best players of the tournament were Serral and Serral's practice partner. Makes me wonder how many times Oliveira 8-raxed Serral during practice.
Some guy™ on Reddit wrote that Oliveira told the Chinese community that his recent practice sessions with Serral went relatively well, as in, Oliveira fared better than in some periods of the past year, where he would go 20-120.
Stellewind? He's on here, too. Here's his whole comment:
{I wasn't surprised really. I am Chinese so I got a lot of second hand Oliveira information in Chinese streams. He practiced with Serral all the time, and is able to frequently take maps off him in practice now. Don't laugh, considering he admits some time last year he went 10-220 against Serral in practice for a month, this is quite an improvement.
He used to say he has no hope against Serral all the time, but recently he's been saying "I actually might have a chance", based on the practice experience.
I am happy that he proved himself a world champ level player again, especially with Maru's final as a comparison immediately after. Oliveira's series against Reynor and Serral in this tournament are some of the highest level TvZ in years, right up there with those Serral vs Clem series. It was a really hard fought battle, Serral had to grind out all 3 wins with every thing he had.}
Yep, this one. Didn't know he is active here, too. Thanks for posting.
Oh, Oliveira actually only went 10-220 during that time; that's yet direr than what I remembered. Winning 1 game out of 7 (20-120) wouldn't even be that bad against Serral, I guess.
On June 03 2024 11:04 WombaT wrote: It’s thoroughly mental to me that a player good enough to be World Champion is going something like 10-220 against anyone else in the scene
Also man gotta have a hell of a mentality to be a progamer
I am the reddit poster in the comment above. It's crazy to me too, hearing Oliveira complaining about Serral being literally unbeatable in practice for the whole year last year. It got to a point when he doesn't even hope to beat Serral anymore, just trying to see how much he can deplete Serral's bank when he lose. But most of the time when he tap out, he would check replay and see Serral still floats thousands of minerals and gas. He felt very defeated.
It's this year that we started to hear him talk about "hey I actually beat Serral in practice multiple times the other day". Makes it all the more rewarding to see he can actually stand his ground and gave Serral a proper nail biting close series, even came very close to actually beat him. The balance patch and map pool definitely helped, not denying that, but man has been putting in the work and it shows.
On June 03 2024 12:19 goldensail wrote: Terran playbook against Serral from now on:
all-in and pray it works
Has it ever been any different? Heh. Lots of commentary about "Maru should take it to the late game vs Serral"... but I feel like the best Maru has looked historically is when he's mixing in proxy 2-raxes and other hyper aggression semi-regularly. /shrug
GG Serral! Maru really needs to think again on how he plays against Serral. Those games were quite brutal. The series of the tournament was definately Serral vs. Oliveira.
On June 03 2024 11:04 WombaT wrote: It’s thoroughly mental to me that a player good enough to be World Champion is going something like 10-220 against anyone else in the scene
Also man gotta have a hell of a mentality to be a progamer
I am the reddit poster in the comment above. It's crazy to me too, hearing Oliveira complaining about Serral being literally unbeatable in practice for the whole year last year. It got to a point when he doesn't even hope to beat Serral anymore, just trying to see how much he can deplete Serral's bank when he lose. But most of the time when he tap out, he would check replay and see Serral still floats thousands of minerals and gas. He felt very defeated.
It's this year that we started to hear him talk about "hey I actually beat Serral in practice multiple times the other day". Makes it all the more rewarding to see he can actually stand his ground and gave Serral a proper nail biting close series, even came very close to actually beat him. The balance patch and map pool definitely helped, not denying that, but man has been putting in the work and it shows.
Oh, cool to read that you're actually the original poster of the comment I was referring to. Thanks for the insights from Oliveira's perspective!
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
Don't make excuses like this.
We have to be honest with ourselves that our scene is way more niche than ever.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
Don't make excuses like this.
We have to be honest with ourselves that our scene is way more niche than ever.
As much as I would love our scene to grow, RTS is a genre for thinkers and people with fast logical processing. The average person has an IQ around 100 in developed countries. This already precludes the vast majority of people from enjoying watching the game, never mind playing it. And then, you factor in the fact that it's only one of several RTS games, and this is what we get. Chess is simple enough, and doesn't require the additional factor of having extreme dexterity, so it's much more approachable than a fast-paced RTS replete with complex in-game mechanics, keyboard/mouse control mechanics, and stats/computation. In the final analysis, this small but very passionate and engaged viewership is to be expected. I'm fine with it, as long as great players continue to stick to the game, and not abandon it, and maybe some new faces join the fray. I'm currently loving SC2 far more than I ever did around its launch date and even HotS.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
Don't make excuses like this.
We have to be honest with ourselves that our scene is way more niche than ever.
As much as I would love our scene to grow, RTS is a genre for thinkers and people with fast logical processing. The average person has an IQ around 100 in developed countries. This already precludes the vast majority of people from enjoying watching the game, never mind playing it. And then, you factor in the fact that it's only one of several RTS games, and this is what we get. Chess is simple enough, and doesn't require the additional factor of having extreme dexterity, so it's much more approachable than a fast-paced RTS replete with complex in-game mechanics, keyboard/mouse control mechanics, and stats/computation. In the final analysis, this small but very passionate and engaged viewership is to be expected. I'm fine with it, as long as great players continue to stick to the game, and not abandon it, and maybe some new faces join the fray. I'm currently loving SC2 far more than I ever did around its launch date and even HotS.
I think the "sc2 players are smart(ish)" narrative needs to go away after the thousands of nonsensical replies regarding Maru/Serral.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
Don't make excuses like this.
We have to be honest with ourselves that our scene is way more niche than ever.
As much as I would love our scene to grow, RTS is a genre for thinkers and people with fast logical processing. The average person has an IQ around 100 in developed countries. This already precludes the vast majority of people from enjoying watching the game, never mind playing it. And then, you factor in the fact that it's only one of several RTS games, and this is what we get. Chess is simple enough, and doesn't require the additional factor of having extreme dexterity, so it's much more approachable than a fast-paced RTS replete with complex in-game mechanics, keyboard/mouse control mechanics, and stats/computation. In the final analysis, this small but very passionate and engaged viewership is to be expected. I'm fine with it, as long as great players continue to stick to the game, and not abandon it, and maybe some new faces join the fray. I'm currently loving SC2 far more than I ever did around its launch date and even HotS.
I think the "sc2 players are smart(ish)" narrative needs to go away after the thousands of nonsensical replies regarding Maru/Serral.
Maybe my standard is extremely high, but I generally regard the average college student as pretty stupid, and they're supposed to represent the upper-mid-to-upper echelon of society intellectually. You get plenty of "stupid" opinions within the chess community as well when they debate about top players (of history). Besides, one man's "stupid" is another man's "insightful." It's mostly a matter of perspective. Regardless, a highly complex game does require above average IQ to really enjoy. That's not really a matter of opinion. You can't enjoy math if you struggled to do simple arithmetic by the end of high school. Now, if you're to debate whether abstract algebra (and other pure math topics) has any real-world usefulness, you're going to run into a lot of "stupid" or "ignorant" arguments made by people well above average intelligence...when really, it's probably just a difference of perspectives.
There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
The finals were at 10-11PM CET. Similar hours as for instance La Liga, the 2nd biggest football league.
But I understand that you were not part of the 20k grand finals viewership
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
Commenting on IQ in 2024 is a low IQ move. It's a debunked narcissistic concept. Move on.
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
The finals were at 10-11PM CET. Similar hours as for instance La Liga, the 2nd biggest football league.
But I understand that you were not part of the 20k grand finals viewership
Which is 11-12 CEST which is what most of europe runs on now. Which is 12-1am in EEST. You do grasp the concept of "middle of the night" don't you?
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
You're the one making a point about SC2 players/fans be smarter than the average. Or even the average eSports enthusiast. You are rather light on evidence, and picking a fight with people pointing out that in addition to not having any evidence, you are using a meaningless number to even make your point. I strongly suggest you fix the [citation needed] problems of your statement rather than whatever gishgallop you're on right now.
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
Commenting on IQ in 2024 is a low IQ move. It's a debunked narcissistic concept. Move on.
I couldn't facepalm harder at this comment. The irony in it is too much. "Narcissistic" only applies to persons—not concepts; there is no such thing as a "narcissistic concept." IQ has been misapplied by narcissistic/arrogant circles, sure. That doesn't invalidate it as a useful concept. Militaries have used various cognitive ability tests to filter their applicants since WWI. Funny enough, one of my high school math teachers said the SAT exam is more of an IQ test than a test of knowledge of subjects, and I agreed. There's probably a reason for that...
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
You're the one making a point about SC2 players/fans be smarter than the average. Or even the average eSports enthusiast. You are rather light on evidence, and picking a fight with people pointing out that in addition to not having any evidence, you are using a meaningless number to even make your point. I strongly suggest you fix the [citation needed] problems of your statement rather than whatever gishgallop you're on right now.
I'm not offering evidence, because evidence doesn't exist. It was merely an easily believable suggestion to explain why SC2 is such a niche product. It's fine if you don't agree. It's rude to say I'm "out of (my) depth" on a complex psychological construct, and therefore the most basic application of it is incorrect. I don't need to be a mathematician to surmise that accountants require more mathematical prowess than cab drivers. Do I have evidence for that? No. Who cares? Why are people getting so antsy about a mere suggestion?
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
That’s a lot of fancy big words to admit that you are wrong Given the ludicrous writing, it’s probably some young guy trolling with a GPT. A boring way to spend time in my opinion, but to each his own
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
The finals were at 10-11PM CET. Similar hours as for instance La Liga, the 2nd biggest football league.
But I understand that you were not part of the 20k grand finals viewership
Which is 11-12 CEST which is what most of europe runs on now. Which is 12-1am in EEST. You do grasp the concept of "middle of the night" don't you?
10-11 Central European.
Go back in the thread and see when most posts were made, when ESL Twitter announced the winner etc.
You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself
BTW the average ro24 ro16 group stage of ASL has 2x-3x the live viewership of these grand finals
On June 03 2024 10:18 Perceivere wrote: I would like future interviews of Clem and Oliveira to have questions on how much they practice, and whether it gives them hand discomforts. We already know Maru suffers this, but I'm not sure how well Clem/Oli fares in this regard. I've seen Reynor flick his wrist after games, and he's definitely one of the fastest players.
Maru constantly beating up on lower tier guys in tvz such as solar, shin, and dark gave him the false sense of confidence.
That’s what happens when you are the big fish in a small pond, when you release that same fish to the ocean, he will soon release he ain’t all that. Which is what we see every time Maru competes internationally especially against Serral
On June 03 2024 10:18 Perceivere wrote: I would like future interviews of Clem and Oliveira to have questions on how much they practice, and whether it gives them hand discomforts. We already know Maru suffers this, but I'm not sure how well Clem/Oli fares in this regard. I've seen Reynor flick his wrist after games, and he's definitely one of the fastest players.
Maru constantly beating up on lower tier guys in tvz such as solar, shin, and dark gave him the false sense of confidence.
That’s what happens when you are the big fish in a small pond, when you release that same fish to the ocean, he will soon release he ain’t all that. Which is what we see every time Maru competes internationally especially against Serral
I don't think Maru ever had any illusions about how strong Serral is. He's not that clueless. In any case, not sure how your reply addresses anything in the post. Seems you're not here to engage in any real dialogue, judging by your prior comments.
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
That’s a lot of fancy big words to admit that you are wrong Given the ludicrous writing, it’s probably some young guy trolling with a GPT. A boring way to spend time in my opinion, but to each his own
Trolls in my days were more creative than this
I'm honestly fascinated that you're actually a TLnet writer. Then again, I've seen the level of intellectual honesty of corporate "journalists," especially in the gaming sector.
I don't troll, but I do dish back what is given. It's very clear here that I'm replying to a rude, condescending person who habitually projects: first, assigning bad faith for no reason, and then accusing of trolling for calling out your attitude. I won't bother with you any longer.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
The finals were at 10-11PM CET. Similar hours as for instance La Liga, the 2nd biggest football league.
But I understand that you were not part of the 20k grand finals viewership
Which is 11-12 CEST which is what most of europe runs on now. Which is 12-1am in EEST. You do grasp the concept of "middle of the night" don't you?
10-11 Central European.
Go back in the thread and see when most posts were made, when ESL Twitter announced the winner etc.
You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself
BTW the average ro24 ro16 group stage of ASL has 2x-3x the live viewership of these grand finals
CS2 Dallas finals were on at the same time and had like 200k on the twitch mainstream with at least 500k more on restreams. SC2 just isn't popular (anymore). Doubt it has anything to do with Serral or any player in particular.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
The finals were at 10-11PM CET. Similar hours as for instance La Liga, the 2nd biggest football league.
But I understand that you were not part of the 20k grand finals viewership
Which is 11-12 CEST which is what most of europe runs on now. Which is 12-1am in EEST. You do grasp the concept of "middle of the night" don't you?
10-11 Central European.
Go back in the thread and see when most posts were made, when ESL Twitter announced the winner etc.
You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself
BTW the average ro24 ro16 group stage of ASL has 2x-3x the live viewership of these grand finals
CS2 Dallas finals were on at the same time and had like 200k on the twitch mainstream with at least 500k more on restreams. SC2 just isn't popular (anymore). Doubt it has anything to do with Serral or any player in particular.
I agree that its not about the current players. They're the best (and most skilled to ever play) in a massively downsized scene.
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
That’s a lot of fancy big words to admit that you are wrong Given the ludicrous writing, it’s probably some young guy trolling with a GPT. A boring way to spend time in my opinion, but to each his own
Trolls in my days were more creative than this
I'm honestly fascinated that you're actually a TLnet writer. Then again, I've seen the level of intellectual honesty of corporate "journalists," especially in the gaming sector.
I don't troll, but I do dish back what is given. It's very clear here that I'm replying to a rude, condescending person who habitually projects: first, assigning bad faith for no reason, and then accusing of trolling for calling out your attitude. I won't bother with you any longer.
If you are arguing in good faith, then my biggest advice would be:
Ce qui se conçoit bien s’énonce clairement, et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément
from Nicolas Boileau. English version: Whatever we conceive well we express clearly, and words flow with ease. [Fr., Ce que l'on concoit bien s'enonce clairement, Et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisement.] Nicolas Boileau-Despreaux
If you use overcomplicated words to argue, it is harder to understand your argument, which might make the other person think you are trying to bullshit him. On the other hand, if you try to convey the meaning of your argument in the simplest way possible (think ELI5 subreddit, where you try to explain a difficult complex to a 5 year old), even though it is difficult to do, it makes you seem genuine in your argument.
On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote: I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Twitch had 15k, Twitch costreamers a few thousand, and Youtube 6k viewers during the grand final. That's laughably low really.
It happened in the middle of the night for europe. Before a business day. What did you expect?
The finals were at 10-11PM CET. Similar hours as for instance La Liga, the 2nd biggest football league.
But I understand that you were not part of the 20k grand finals viewership
Which is 11-12 CEST which is what most of europe runs on now. Which is 12-1am in EEST. You do grasp the concept of "middle of the night" don't you?
10-11 Central European.
Go back in the thread and see when most posts were made, when ESL Twitter announced the winner etc.
You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself
BTW the average ro24 ro16 group stage of ASL has 2x-3x the live viewership of these grand finals
Obviously not. Thanks for your opinion! Have a nice day.
On June 03 2024 19:01 Poopi wrote: There is more to intelligence than just IQ. And IQ can have a lot of variance for a single individual (sleep / mood / motivation etc.)
I mean didn't Richard Feynman proved already that iQ is kinda bullshit to gauge intelligence? it's a tool, and like other tools, it's decent for some usages and not as good for others
Yes, I never said that IQ is the end all and be all of intelligence, or intellectual accolade. However, if you look at what IQ does measure, it measures all the criteria necessary to excel in SC2, from pattern recognition, short-term memory, spatial reasoning, to mathematical reasoning, etc.
Richard Feyman had an IQ well north of average, so I don't know what you mean by him proving the concept "kinda bullshit." It's not like a 115 IQ person cannot out-perform a 130 person in an intellectual field, unless all other personal traits are equal. Einstein himself was estimated at only 150, and there are many, many uni professors beyond that level currently, nevermind throughout history, and yet Einstein is by far the greatest contributor to science, besides Newton.
What I'm saying is I'm sure there are quite a few viewers with <100 IQ enjoying Starcraft, but the middle of the bell curve of the population of SC audience will skew somewhat to the right of the curve. I don't think this is an unreasonable presumption to make.
I mean, do you realize / know that there are different scales / methods for IQ etc.? If you are arguing in good faith, I think you are a bit out of your depth (in terms of knowledge on the subject matter of IQ)
Sure. Also, irrelevant. I don't need to be an expert on the subject to know how the construct generally applies to disciplines. Every discipline has an IQ curve. I'm merely suggesting that intellectual disciplines will have curves whose means skew above average. This should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of reasonability. You're countering with...irrelevant ad hom, while completely missing the point. Not really surprising, given your post history.
You're the one making a point about SC2 players/fans be smarter than the average. Or even the average eSports enthusiast. You are rather light on evidence, and picking a fight with people pointing out that in addition to not having any evidence, you are using a meaningless number to even make your point. I strongly suggest you fix the [citation needed] problems of your statement rather than whatever gishgallop you're on right now.
I'm not offering evidence, because evidence doesn't exist. It was merely an easily believable suggestion to explain why SC2 is such a niche product. It's fine if you don't agree. It's rude to say I'm "out of (my) depth" on a complex psychological construct, and therefore the most basic application of it is incorrect. I don't need to be a mathematician to surmise that accountants require more mathematical prowess than cab drivers. Do I have evidence for that? No. Who cares? Why are people getting so antsy about a mere suggestion?
To be fair you have to have a very high IQ…
It’s a hypothesis that makes much more sense if SC2 was always pulling in the numbers it is now, or other stereotypically cerebral pursuits like chess weren’t actually growing in popularity.
I imagine there’s a whole bunch of other more pertinent reasons for it
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Protoss is overly reliant on Disruptors in macro games, and top-level Terrans are getting ever better at dodging them. AoE is a requirement for late-game Protoss, but neither Colossi nor Templar nor Archons can do anything once Ghost/Viking is out in large enough number. Protoss is on a bit of a timer in this regard.
Protoss is the most immobile race in an expansion that has increasingly focused on faster expansions, small-scale engagements and harassment. Terran is an incredibly mobile race offensively, and top Terrans are really good at exploiting the immobility of Protoss armies.
Protoss is a race of gimmicks held together by other gimmicks. Terrans won't lose to 4 Gate Blink pressure every single game, or DT drops, or proxy Oracles, or whatever, and so something gives eventually.
Etcetera.
Protoss just isn't built for Legacy of the Void. It requires too many band-aids to function. Fortunately, the negatives that come from all those band-aids only really affect the very top players, and they kinda have the opposite affect once you get below that level, so I can continue casually cheesing people on the ladder with impunity!
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
At least from watching it seems like the biggest issue in tvp is that playing defensive/straight macro games is just not that successful (except the terran fucks up), so the success is from aggressive protosses which can only work for so long.
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
At least from watching it seems like the biggest issue in tvp is that playing defensive/straight macro games is just not that successful (except the terran fucks up), so the success is from aggressive protosses which can only work for so long.
So similarly to how you need to play TvZ vs Serral then? (see Oliveira vs Serral and Maru vs Serral) Seems more like stylistic problem than balance issue then.
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
At least from watching it seems like the biggest issue in tvp is that playing defensive/straight macro games is just not that successful (except the terran fucks up), so the success is from aggressive protosses which can only work for so long.
So similarly to how you need to play TvZ vs Serral then? (see Oliveira vs Serral and Maru vs Serral) Seems more like stylistic problem than balance issue then.
Uh no one thing is versus a certain player one is a whole matchup.
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
At least from watching it seems like the biggest issue in tvp is that playing defensive/straight macro games is just not that successful (except the terran fucks up), so the success is from aggressive protosses which can only work for so long.
So similarly to how you need to play TvZ vs Serral then? (see Oliveira vs Serral and Maru vs Serral) Seems more like stylistic problem than balance issue then.
Uh no one thing is versus a certain player one is a whole matchup.
Definitely a matchup thing, and therefore can't be solved by playing towards an opponents weakness. Without the option of winning lategame, timing attacks are the only way.
This tends to happen, when a spellcaster unit can basically delete half an army. EMP is just as oppressive as chain fungal was way back when. And it could be dealt with the same way.
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
At least from watching it seems like the biggest issue in tvp is that playing defensive/straight macro games is just not that successful (except the terran fucks up), so the success is from aggressive protosses which can only work for so long.
So similarly to how you need to play TvZ vs Serral then? (see Oliveira vs Serral and Maru vs Serral) Seems more like stylistic problem than balance issue then.
Uh no one thing is versus a certain player one is a whole matchup.
Then why did every zerg struggle versus protoss, until Serral showed the way at Dallas? "A match-up thing" doesn't mean much, maybe at EWC protoss will start crushing T/Z again
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
Which of these matches should have been won by the Protoss in your opinion?
Bolded those which are IMO at least 50/50. Maybe hero and Maru as well. It's always close with these two
Those matches might be 50/50, but the players still have to play in order to win, they don't toss a coin. I see nothing particularly surprising statistically speaking
It's like the sloppy_donkey guy on reddit with his focus on premier tournament results by protoss, omitting that protoss did very well in StarsWar 11. The fact that it's (sw11) not a premier tournament on Liquipedia is kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the players there tried very hard and it showed in their gameplay.
If you have more insider info (speak to the players, why they felt they lost, etc.), you can conduct a more qualitative analysis (or even by analyzing the games / series)
At least from watching it seems like the biggest issue in tvp is that playing defensive/straight macro games is just not that successful (except the terran fucks up), so the success is from aggressive protosses which can only work for so long.
So similarly to how you need to play TvZ vs Serral then? (see Oliveira vs Serral and Maru vs Serral) Seems more like stylistic problem than balance issue then.
Uh no one thing is versus a certain player one is a whole matchup.
Then why did every zerg struggle versus protoss, until Serral showed the way at Dallas? "A match-up thing" doesn't mean much, maybe at EWC protoss will start crushing T/Z again
Huh, i dont disagree that we should observer a little more how the mu plays out but the serral analogies make no sense.
Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
I guess it might be but seemed to be more than that to me. Like Serral was perfectly predicting Maru and hard countering him every game even though Maru changed up what he was doing each time.
To me game 4 of the Kato finals is more of a mental breakdown than any game in this series. 0 reason he ever should have lost that game besides being mentally broken from being down 0-3. As a standalone game most pros would have called that over in Maru's favor at one point.
The games at Dallas didn't feel like that to me. They were just Maru instantly dying to Serral's first attack and it seemed like he had no way to defend with what he had even with perfect execution. 4-0 in 40 minutes in ZvT is crazy.
Maru was playing rather greedy on every map while Oliveira was going 8 rax before 4 cc on maps without an easy defense. He only went to 4 cc quickly on maps like Oceanborn or Ghost River where he, like Maru, fell behind in supply. He also transitioned into ghosts more slowly and played a more stable style by committing to more marauders, earlier. My theory is that Maru can play greedy against every other Zerg on Earth and survive but Serral's macro and understanding is too sharp so he can take advantage of that small transition period and simply kill Maru, and because Maru isn't used to playing against Serral he isn't used to having to deal with that sharp timing, whereas Serral with his gargantuan brain found a consistent abuseable hole in all of Maru's build orders (Rogue killed Maru in a similar fashion in the worst GSL finals of all time, and even Dark has abused that timing to take matches off of Maru before).
Maru is also very predictable and conservative so Serral just needs to create enough units to defend harass while teching/droning as fast as he wants. This also part of why Maru dies so much to runbys. Part of the problem is he just doesn't invest in defending them enough, but part of the problem is that if the Zerg is in no danger and knows the Terran will always walk home to defend, the Zerg can get away with a lot.
The other possibility, and I cannot confirm this without studying replays, would be balance of scans vs mules. It's possible that Terran might need to invest more energy into mules to keep up and Maru might not do that as much, I'm just spitballing with this though.
I think Maru is going to have to learn to better toe the line and commit more to macro and army in the transition from mid to lategame, otherwise he'll continue to die to Zerg maxouts for the rest of his career, or he'll need to actually start playing aggressive (might be impossible with his worsening injuries, dunno). It works vs almost everyone, but Serral is just too good and identified his weakness. Maru has done a similar thing to Solar, a player who can go toe to toe with Clem in macro games but often just rolls over and dies against Maru.
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
By the way, for those not aware: Serral himself did an almost 2 hour in-depth interview about his 4-0 against Maru at Kato'24 with Pig. It's on Pig's YouTube.
On the one hand, it's extremely instructive. On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because often Serral essentially says (without saying so) that builds or units or strategic moves tend to be strong if you execute or control them with near perfection, as he does.
For example, Serral said about his roach push in game 1, after Pig brought up some wordy strategic justification, just that "It's a good build" (I'm quoting verbatim). By which he sort of means it's good if you execute it and everything else perfectly.
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
By the way, for those not aware: Serral himself did an almost 2 hour in-depth interview about his 4-0 against Maru at Kato'24 with Pig. It's on Pig's YouTube.
On the one hand, it's extremely instructive. On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because often Serral essentially says (without saying so) that builds or units or strategic moves tend to be strong if you execute or control them with near perfection, as he does.
For example, Serral said about his roach push in game 1, after Pig brought up some wordy strategic justification, just that "It's a good build" (I'm quoting verbatim). By which he sort of means it's good if you execute it and everything else perfectly.
Which is why I was kinda frustrated with AlphaStar, because in essence, A LOT of starcraft 2 is about execution, and it is pretty difficult to make a match between an AI and an human a fair fight in that regard.
On June 05 2024 06:59 serendipitous wrote: Maru was playing rather greedy on every map while Oliveira was going 8 rax before 4 cc on maps without an easy defense. He only went to 4 cc quickly on maps like Oceanborn or Ghost River where he, like Maru, fell behind in supply. He also transitioned into ghosts more slowly and played a more stable style by committing to more marauders, earlier. My theory is that Maru can play greedy against every other Zerg on Earth and survive but Serral's macro and understanding is too sharp so he can take advantage of that small transition period and simply kill Maru, and because Maru isn't used to playing against Serral he isn't used to having to deal with that sharp timing, whereas Serral with his gargantuan brain found a consistent abuseable hole in all of Maru's build orders (Rogue killed Maru in a similar fashion in the worst GSL finals of all time, and even Dark has abused that timing to take matches off of Maru before).
Maru is also very predictable and conservative so Serral just needs to create enough units to defend harass while teching/droning as fast as he wants. This also part of why Maru dies so much to runbys. Part of the problem is he just doesn't invest in defending them enough, but part of the problem is that if the Zerg is in no danger and knows the Terran will always walk home to defend, the Zerg can get away with a lot.
The other possibility, and I cannot confirm this without studying replays, would be balance of scans vs mules. It's possible that Terran might need to invest more energy into mules to keep up and Maru might not do that as much, I'm just spitballing with this though.
I think Maru is going to have to learn to better toe the line and commit more to macro and army in the transition from mid to lategame, otherwise he'll continue to die to Zerg maxouts for the rest of his career, or he'll need to actually start playing aggressive (might be impossible with his worsening injuries, dunno). It works vs almost everyone, but Serral is just too good and identified his weakness. Maru has done a similar thing to Solar, a player who can go toe to toe with Clem in macro games but often just rolls over and dies against Maru.
Your point on scans vs mules is interesting to me because he will scan a tooon in tvt and yet seems to be able to get to late fairly often. I guess he can get away with it in tvt due to defender's advantage but not quite in tvz and just falls behind. My own head cannon is that he needs to practice with rogue a ton strictly on early and late game
On June 05 2024 06:59 serendipitous wrote: Maru was playing rather greedy on every map while Oliveira was going 8 rax before 4 cc on maps without an easy defense. He only went to 4 cc quickly on maps like Oceanborn or Ghost River where he, like Maru, fell behind in supply. He also transitioned into ghosts more slowly and played a more stable style by committing to more marauders, earlier. My theory is that Maru can play greedy against every other Zerg on Earth and survive but Serral's macro and understanding is too sharp so he can take advantage of that small transition period and simply kill Maru, and because Maru isn't used to playing against Serral he isn't used to having to deal with that sharp timing, whereas Serral with his gargantuan brain found a consistent abuseable hole in all of Maru's build orders (Rogue killed Maru in a similar fashion in the worst GSL finals of all time, and even Dark has abused that timing to take matches off of Maru before).
Maru is also very predictable and conservative so Serral just needs to create enough units to defend harass while teching/droning as fast as he wants. This also part of why Maru dies so much to runbys. Part of the problem is he just doesn't invest in defending them enough, but part of the problem is that if the Zerg is in no danger and knows the Terran will always walk home to defend, the Zerg can get away with a lot.
The other possibility, and I cannot confirm this without studying replays, would be balance of scans vs mules. It's possible that Terran might need to invest more energy into mules to keep up and Maru might not do that as much, I'm just spitballing with this though.
I think Maru is going to have to learn to better toe the line and commit more to macro and army in the transition from mid to lategame, otherwise he'll continue to die to Zerg maxouts for the rest of his career, or he'll need to actually start playing aggressive (might be impossible with his worsening injuries, dunno). It works vs almost everyone, but Serral is just too good and identified his weakness. Maru has done a similar thing to Solar, a player who can go toe to toe with Clem in macro games but often just rolls over and dies against Maru.
Maru banks CC energy in the midgame and uses it to recover from baneling busts. he throws out the odd scan here and there, but from what I can see he isn't overly concerned about clearing up creep: only that which is on his half of the map. he seems to try and set himself up so that he can mule faraway bases, and hold onto as many minerals as possible in his 3rd / 4th base. this is one of the cornerstones of his vZ style. it's a very conservative way of approaching the matchup.
if you go 8 raxx, you have to MULE your 3rd base pretty heavily. when the marauder aggression on 8 raxx doesn't pay for itself, well suddenly you've mined out your third and are relying more on faraway bases which are more difficult to defend in the long run. turtling with ghosts in the lategame is a lot harder when you're spread out. I'd say that Maru has his reasons for playing the way he did. Maru telegraphed his willingness to turtle towards the lategame and Serral exploited that in the most devastating ways.
I would have liked to see how another korean terran would have performed against Serral in this tournament. GuMiho in particular would have given Serral a harder time. he's the only korean terran who can match the energy of Clem / Oliveira in that matchup
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
By the way, for those not aware: Serral himself did an almost 2 hour in-depth interview about his 4-0 against Maru at Kato'24 with Pig. It's on Pig's YouTube.
On the one hand, it's extremely instructive. On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because often Serral essentially says (without saying so) that builds or units or strategic moves tend to be strong if you execute or control them with near perfection, as he does.
For example, Serral said about his roach push in game 1, after Pig brought up some wordy strategic justification, just that "It's a good build" (I'm quoting verbatim). By which he sort of means it's good if you execute it and everything else perfectly.
Serral's analysis of Serral gameplay is basically: Just play like Serral
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
By the way, for those not aware: Serral himself did an almost 2 hour in-depth interview about his 4-0 against Maru at Kato'24 with Pig. It's on Pig's YouTube.
On the one hand, it's extremely instructive. On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because often Serral essentially says (without saying so) that builds or units or strategic moves tend to be strong if you execute or control them with near perfection, as he does.
For example, Serral said about his roach push in game 1, after Pig brought up some wordy strategic justification, just that "It's a good build" (I'm quoting verbatim). By which he sort of means it's good if you execute it and everything else perfectly.
Serral's analysis of Serral gameplay is basically: Just play like Serral
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
By the way, for those not aware: Serral himself did an almost 2 hour in-depth interview about his 4-0 against Maru at Kato'24 with Pig. It's on Pig's YouTube.
On the one hand, it's extremely instructive. On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because often Serral essentially says (without saying so) that builds or units or strategic moves tend to be strong if you execute or control them with near perfection, as he does.
For example, Serral said about his roach push in game 1, after Pig brought up some wordy strategic justification, just that "It's a good build" (I'm quoting verbatim). By which he sort of means it's good if you execute it and everything else perfectly.
Serral's analysis of Serral gameplay is basically: Just play like Serral
"I just try not to make mistakes." -Serral
Audience:absorbs secret ancient wisdom
Sounds like what people said about Stephano explaining how he wins
On June 05 2024 04:35 JJH777 wrote: Has any pro done analysis on the Serral vs Maru finals yet? I'm curious to see high level thoughts on those games. It makes no sense to me that Maru died so easily by the 10 minute mark every single game.
Pretty sure it's just a mental breakdown, nothing to do with knowledge or strategy or mechanics
There is still analysis to be done by pros though. A lot of them have had access to sport psychologists, so they can have great insights watching the replays of what Maru might have thought at each moment.
Even if it ends up as "overall a mental breakdown", there is still value in analyzing it imho. I would be very happy to watch such a video
Just in general that’s definitely a content niche I think would be super interesting to listen to
By the way, for those not aware: Serral himself did an almost 2 hour in-depth interview about his 4-0 against Maru at Kato'24 with Pig. It's on Pig's YouTube.
On the one hand, it's extremely instructive. On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because often Serral essentially says (without saying so) that builds or units or strategic moves tend to be strong if you execute or control them with near perfection, as he does.
For example, Serral said about his roach push in game 1, after Pig brought up some wordy strategic justification, just that "It's a good build" (I'm quoting verbatim). By which he sort of means it's good if you execute it and everything else perfectly.
Serral's analysis of Serral gameplay is basically: Just play like Serral
"I just try not to make mistakes." -Serral
Audience:absorbs secret ancient wisdom
Sounds like what people said about Stephano explaining how he wins
It also sounds a lot like most programers, with a few brilliant exceptions.
On June 04 2024 16:02 Harris1st wrote: So what happened to Protoss this tournament?
Was just taking a look at the brackets and noticing basically every top Protoss got taken out by a Terran (KO-Stage/ Playoffs) Gumi > Nice Byun > trigger Byun > Stats Spirit > Astrea Cure > Nightmare Cure > Classic Maru > hero
With the only exception of hero > Clem. This is like an 87,5% winrate for TvP at the top end. Thoughts?
"It's the player material" "Let the meta settle" "Toss doing fine on lower levels and/or in online tournament X" Etc.
The race has not been viable on the highest level for years and it's unlikely to change.
Explains a lot why Oliveira was a better match up against Serral than Maru was.
catching up on this thread.
i think Artosis published a YouTube video that explained why he thought that Serral was more of a Bonjwa than the GOAT and Oliveira's point about there being no equivalent zerg player for Maru to practice against points to that being truer than ever. he's in his military service and is still in a league of his own for his race.
i wonder if Oli will be able to figure out a way to beat him if he's feeling like the games were close. it's nice to see that he's still taking the game very seriously and looking to improve.
on the flip side, it's really disappointing to hear that pros are losing focus. i've seen more and more a-moving lately and that is not very fun to watch.
EPT
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ESL Pro Tour/2023/24/Masters/Spring/Open Stage
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daaaaamn!!!! 
