EPTAnd Oliveira's form wasn't really that great coming into this tournament.
EPT Spring/Dallas 2024 - Info + Live Discussion (May 31-Ju…
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ZeroByte13
799 Posts
And Oliveira's form wasn't really that great coming into this tournament. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27312 Posts
Clem’s 34% after 47 matches and 49.5% after 105 matches against the same respective opponents. Of course there are other opponents out there, and Oliveira’s an incredible talent but I just don’t think there’s anything much besides his WC to put him above Clem In the same sense I have a hard time putting Byun above Cure. Yeah Byun had a miracle year but Cure’s probably accumulated more over the length of his career | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On June 02 2024 23:29 Perceivere wrote: Mentally, they're different. Oli repeatedly through interviews shows that he still has that competitive hunger and fire underneath him, whereas HM has resigned himself to just being the highest-skilled prolific streamer of EU, for the steady income. I think that's the difference that let Oliveira enter his "final form" which snatched him the IEM trophy, and crushing Maru in the process. I also think it's easier to "punch above your weight" as an aggressive player. Not to say that Oliveira is one-dimensional (he's won some amazing macro games, both in this tournament and in Katowice), but being able to pick up some wins with super sharp timings and a bit of momentum makes upsets much easier. If we think of someone like Showtime, who's clearly very skilled and dedicated, a premier win would require him to win 3-4 bo5 straight against better players in macro games. At his best Showtime wins one of those series, but that's a much taller order than winning some macro games but also nailing some timings. On the flipside, if your aggression falls flat you'll have a much higher variance in your results. As for Clem vs Oli, I think it still goes to Clem. Katowice > ESL Masters of course, but Clem's total body of online work puts him a bit ahead, even if online results count for less. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27312 Posts
On June 02 2024 23:42 dysenterymd wrote: I also think it's easier to "punch above your weight" as an aggressive player. Not to say that Oliveira is one-dimensional (he's won some amazing macro games, both in this tournament and in Katowice), but being able to pick up some wins with super sharp timings and a bit of momentum makes upsets much easier. If we think of someone like Showtime, who's clearly very skilled and dedicated, a premier win would require him to win 3-4 bo5 straight against better players in macro games. At his best Showtime wins one of those series, but that's a much taller order than winning some macro games but also nailing some timings. On the flipside, if your aggression falls flat you'll have a much higher variance in your results. As for Clem vs Oli, I think it still goes to Clem. Katowice > ESL Masters of course, but Clem's total body of online work puts him a bit ahead, even if online results count for less. Showtime’s approach is great if you wanna be consistent but it’s not going to win him tournaments. He’s clearly an excellent player but he’s not going to run a Ro8+ gauntlet beating players straight up who are just better at that style. Pretty much every tournament he looks bloody good and he rarely embarrasses himself but he just runs into that brick wall. But, on the flipside he also does rather well against the players he’s just better than, bit like Heromarine in that betting on them is considerably easier than most players. More often than not they’ll beat who they should beat on paper, and more often and not the inverse, there’s not a huge amount of variance | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 02 2024 23:47 Sent. wrote: You can argue Oliveira's peak potential is higher (I'm not sure) but Clem is clearly a better player on average. I'm not even sure if that's an arguable point, since he's only pulled it off once. However, seeing how motivated he is, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen again. And if it does, especially in the Saudi cup, it will be a very complicated comparison between him and Clem. | ||
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tigera6
3514 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27312 Posts
On June 03 2024 00:12 Nakajin wrote: I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility. Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall. When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17744 Posts
On June 02 2024 10:19 Acrofales wrote: The desk needs to read Poopi's article rather than this waffling. I know this feeling lol | ||
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LukaMav
28 Posts
On June 02 2024 23:42 dysenterymd wrote: I also think it's easier to "punch above your weight" as an aggressive player. Not to say that Oliveira is one-dimensional (he's won some amazing macro games, both in this tournament and in Katowice), but being able to pick up some wins with super sharp timings and a bit of momentum makes upsets much easier. If we think of someone like Showtime, who's clearly very skilled and dedicated, a premier win would require him to win 3-4 bo5 straight against better players in macro games. At his best Showtime wins one of those series, but that's a much taller order than winning some macro games but also nailing some timings. On the flipside, if your aggression falls flat you'll have a much higher variance in your results. As for Clem vs Oli, I think it still goes to Clem. Katowice > ESL Masters of course, but Clem's total body of online work puts him a bit ahead, even if online results count for less. The example you made about Showtime. His style is good to have a long career “in the middle of the pack”. He will never win or be a threat due to his play style. It’s a honest macro build EVERY single game. His opponents don’t need to worry about sharp timings or cheese because showtime doesn’t have that in his bag of tricks. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote: Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo. One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory. | ||
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2656 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16087 Posts
On June 03 2024 00:19 WombaT wrote: When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results. Well, the more he plays him the higher the chances would be he beats him at least once, even Heromarine managed to beat him once in a bo5 given enough tries. And also there's a decent chance he wouldn't need to beat Serral because Clem/Reynor took him down first (happened more often than not). Oliveira probably wouldn't be able to win 5 but I think there's a decent chance he could've taken like 2-3 if he participated in every one | ||
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tigera6
3514 Posts
On June 03 2024 00:30 Perceivere wrote: One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory. Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 03 2024 01:05 Charoisaur wrote: Well, the more he plays him the higher the chances would be he beats him at least once, even Heromarine managed to beat him once in a bo5 given enough tries. And also there's a decent chance he wouldn't need to beat Serral because Clem/Reynor took him down first (happened more often than not). Oliveira probably wouldn't be able to win 5 but I think there's a decent chance he could've taken like 2-3 if he participated in every one I seldom agree with you, but this is quite true. Oliveira IMO has been heavily stagnated by his region. He would benefit from traveling abroad to practice more than any other player. He's said in interviews that he goes 50/50 against Reynor, and feels hopeless against Serral, but I would reckon that with a longterm practice schedule, he can definitely get the better of Reynor, while giving Serral a series loss from time to time. I think Oliveira has one of the best attitude and mindset in the East. He's humble and hardworking, and most of all hungry to become stronger even though he already has a big win under his belt. | ||
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tigera6
3514 Posts
On June 02 2024 22:13 ZeroByte13 wrote: Isn't it kinda typical for him to trade periods of bad and great performance? Maybe there's something in other aspects of his life that distracts him, who know. He's a young lad. To be honest, he has had more valleys than peaks in recent performance. And its not like he doesnt take the game seriously, which is a pretty dumb take by some people, it looks to me that Reynor hitting a wall in term of playstyle. He likes to play fast and out-micro his opponent, but the current meta doesnt allow for those strategy to work anymore. The best way to play Zerg now is like Serral, getting the defense lock up, smash the attack and then counter for the win, but Reynor doesnt want to just defend, nor his defense setup is as great as Serral. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 03 2024 01:18 tigera6 wrote: Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that. Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over. There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear. | ||
Waxangel
United States33686 Posts
 Here's one for you guys: Who was the greater player, State or PiG? | ||
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