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On June 03 2024 01:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 00:19 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2024 00:12 Nakajin wrote:
I think Oliveira gets a bit forgotten because he's playing in the China regional, he would be one of the very best players in EU for years if he were to play there and have a lot more visibility.
Although I do agree that Clem is the better player overall.
When they were amalgamated he didn’t really show that, he wasn’t especially outperforming guys like Special He’s literally never beaten Serral in a pro series so I’m not sure if you transplanted him into the EU circuit he’s going to put up stellar results. Well, the more he plays him the higher the chances would be he beats him at least once, even Heromarine managed to beat him once in a bo5 given enough tries. And also there's a decent chance he wouldn't need to beat Serral because Clem/Reynor took him down first (happened more often than not). Oliveira probably wouldn't be able to win 5 but I think there's a decent chance he could've taken like 2-3 if he participated in every one
This is a great point, especially since Oliveira has always had great TvT and I find it very likely he would have taken out Clem a couple times or more in the regionals, and had a fair amount of success against Reynor.
I mean I think Clem is still clearly ahead because Oliveira still hasn't shown anything amazing beyond that one IEM win. If he won here that would change but I mean he's going to have to go through Serral/Maru/dark and I don't believe in that.
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On June 03 2024 01:36 Waxangel wrote:Note to self: all future TL.net content is "who's better, A or B?" articles  Here's one for you guys: Who was the greater player, State or PiG?
State has played in GSL, PiG has not. I rest my case.
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Chobra is so professional
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Whens the SC2 vs BW thing happening? Before Semis or After?
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On June 03 2024 01:52 Brutaxilos wrote:
Whens the SC2 vs BW thing happening? Before Semis or After?
For sure before the grand final
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On June 03 2024 01:36 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 01:18 tigera6 wrote:On June 03 2024 00:30 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote:
Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo. One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory. Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that. Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over. There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear.
6 online tournaments, with less competitive player pool overall, and has double elimination format with an extra live. Yeah I do think winning IEM is more valuable than that. And Scarlett has accomplished more than Clem in her overall career, but he has far outweighed her achievement in the last 3-4 years. And while Clem has dominated Serral and Reynor, I doubt he could beat Maru 4-1 in any Grand Final.
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Hyped for Maru vs Dark!
Haha Kaelaris wants that Maru vs Serral rematch as much as I do
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the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
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On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote:
the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
What are you talking about?
State is casting, awesome
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On June 03 2024 01:56 Kreuger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 01:52 Brutaxilos wrote:
Whens the SC2 vs BW thing happening? Before Semis or After? For sure before the grand final
Well thank god, I was saying they should've had a break between Semis and Finals at Atlanta.
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I feel like the way Dark played vs Byun yesterday Maru shouldn't really struggle but Dark seems to over perform vs Maru compared to his performances vs other Terrans.
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On June 03 2024 02:01 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote:
the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list What are you talking about? State is casting, awesome
the panel section they had few minutes ago to warm up Dark vs Maru
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Looks like a big crowd, awesome to see.
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Dark building 7 overlords at the 4:20 mark
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On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote:
the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list
What shade?
Wardi definitely threw shade to the GOAT list for not including Dark but when did we do that to Maru
Oh I mentioned history doesn't look good for Maru-Serral matches, does that really count as "the amount of shade is something else"?
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On June 03 2024 02:07 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 02:01 Argonauta wrote:
the amount of shade that wardi and ZG give to Maru its just something else lol, they seem a bit mad about Miz list What shade? Wardi definitely threw shade to the GOAT list for not including Dark but when did we do that to Maru
I asked the same thing lol. I have no idea what he thinks he saw. Wardi literally predicted Maru to win lmao.
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On June 03 2024 01:56 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 01:36 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 01:18 tigera6 wrote:On June 03 2024 00:30 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote:
Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo. One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory. Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that. Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over. There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear. 6 online tournaments, with less competitive player pool overall, and has double elimination format with an extra live. Yeah I do think winning IEM is more valuable than that. And Scarlett has accomplished more than Clem in her overall career, but he has far outweighed her achievement in the last 3-4 years. And while Clem has dominated Serral and Reynor, I doubt he could beat Maru 4-1 in any Grand Final.
Online or offline, they all count for something. Dismissing online completely is just silly. Why have any online tournaments, if they don't count at all to a player's legacy? If they're meant to be just qualifiers for big offline tournaments, then what's the point of assigning them premiere status with a large prize pool? Coming from the bottom bracket to win a tournament is far more impressive to me, so I don't know why you think double elim is a mark against his record. That's some mental gymnastics there.
Clem's TvT in the past year or so has shown vast improvements. I don't think he would ever be favored against Maru, but Oliveira wasn't ever favored against Maru before or after that tournament, either; and yet managed a 4-0 win, so I don't know why you're counting Clem out so easily. Furthermore, if this community accepts that zerg has been op our the last half-decade or so, then that only makes Clem's dominating wins against Serral and Reynor all the more impressive. He's been dominating the Korea zergs in the past year as well. (I personally don't buy into the zerg op narrative) Do you think Clem has a lesser chance of beating Maru 4-1 than Oliveira has of beating Serral 4-1? Give me a break. Clem has actually won several series against Maru, online (click "Match history" to reveal). Oliveira hasn't won one against Serral.
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On June 03 2024 01:56 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 01:36 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 01:18 tigera6 wrote:On June 03 2024 00:30 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 00:08 tigera6 wrote:
Oliveira has accomplished more, thanks to his IEM title, but Clem has been the better player in term of skill and ability. Although head-to-head they are quite even imo. One IEM title doesn't even come close to overweighing all the premieres Clem's won, where he had to go through the top EU players, including Serral, and in some the top Koreans. World cups have been won by players that didn't even register in the top10 ranking immediately before their victory. Clem has only won 1 premiere international tournament, offline or online, and the rest have been EU regional. As impressive as it is, I still rank winning IEM above that. Also just impressive are his 6 premiere regionals where he won against Serral, Maxpax, Reynor, and Heromarine. Those guys are just as strong as the top Koreans in those days, even if given Reynor slumping in the past couple years. You weigh world champion cups far too heavily. By your standard, even Scarlett is more accomplished than Clem. Oliveira didn't beat the best of the best (Serral) for that win. He also had several close matches, and lost many maps. Clem beat the best, sometimes completely dominating Serral the way Serral dominates Maru, and walked through several other top contenders, and he did it many times over. There is so much anti-EU bias around this neck of the woods, I swear. 6 online tournaments, with less competitive player pool overall, and has double elimination format with an extra live. Yeah I do think winning IEM is more valuable than that. And Scarlett has accomplished more than Clem in her overall career, but he has far outweighed her achievement in the last 3-4 years. And while Clem has dominated Serral and Reynor, I doubt he could beat Maru 4-1 in any Grand Final.
While I'd have Clem above Oliveira as well due to his body of work, it's noteworthy that the only thing Clem has above Oli are tournaments Oli wasn't allowed to compete in.
If Oli wins one more offline event he'd pull ahead for sure.
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Dark should get a night shift for every supply block
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EPT
