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On May 20 2024 18:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 18:05 darklycid wrote:On May 20 2024 11:22 tigera6 wrote:
Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
Again Show me Numbers for that. Lets Looks at recent tournaments: gsl s1 2t ro4 t win, EU regional: 3t ro4 t win, na 1t ro4 p win (was even Like this when p was Seen as the weakest Race), Asia: 2t ro4 t win. So yeah i dont See any Support for These Claims. Well, quantitative analysis in Starcraft 2 is pretty tough since there are barely any pros left in the scene, sample sizes will be particularly small. This is why qualitative analysis can provide better results, and there has been plenty of hints towards protoss being in a good state in PvT currently: Firefly destroying Clem in the WTL 3-0, SKillous beating Oliveira 3-0 with ease, Maru completely demolishing Spirit and GuMiho in the mirror match-up but heavily struggling to beat herO, Cure who was top 2 or better in TvP for multiple years getting beaten over and over again by NightMare... I don't see how the number of terrans in a GSL (where there are not only terrans and protoss but also zergs) are indicative numbers of the state of TvP/PvT, especially compared to fine qualitative analysis like the post you quoted: 2 base pushes, at which timing, etc. Sure, we are plebs so maybe tigera6 qualitative analysis is utterly false, and the T / P progamers have a vastly different opinion about the games etc., but it's imho a better way to look at the match-up than checking which race won which tournament and the race representation. Especially considering how small the scene has become, with GSL qualifiers barely eliminating anyone anymore since there aren't enough top players left playing in Korea. I get where you are coming from though, due to reasons (cough cough MaxPax not playing offline, and several top KR protoss gone to the military or playing stormgate), protoss has been under represented at the top level. Not sure if balance was the main culprit for that though. I wanted to keep my Vitality x Onsyde Maru jersey for Esports World Cup to give Maru maximum energy, but he won GSL Code S AND this tournament... I will take it out of its blister and wear it to work tomorrow, probably 
The only Argument in there is cure and people can start to slump so yea. SC2 is too volatile in daily Form to really reach a conclusion from Something Like clem losing in wtl when He then Just wins EU or Oli losing to skillous. Also arguing Maru playing good mirrors into struggling vs herO in a different mu is again Just insane to my eyes as mu Skill is smth Else entirely.
As i Said tho i'd agree that pvt currently Looks alot better than before for protoss but people Spinning into be p favored and esp smth Like 60/40 is batshit crazy.
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On May 20 2024 11:07 goldensail wrote:
Since herO himself said PvT is now 60/40 and the balance is "perfect", I think there's a reasonable argument for PvT being somewhat Protoss favored. Let's see how Terrans adapt.
So PvsT is 60/40 and Hero thinks it is balanced? And because PvsT is 60/40, TL also thinks it's balanced? lol
Hero was making so many mistakes that series and if PvsT weren't 60/40, but closer to 50/50, it would have been a 5-0 for Maru.
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On May 20 2024 18:52 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 11:07 goldensail wrote:
Since herO himself said PvT is now 60/40 and the balance is "perfect", I think there's a reasonable argument for PvT being somewhat Protoss favored. Let's see how Terrans adapt. So PvsT is 60/40 and Hero thinks it is balanced? And because PvsT is 60/40, TL also thinks it's balanced? lol Hero was making so many mistakes that series and if PvsT weren't 60/40, but closer to 50/50, it would have been a 5-0 for Maru.
This is so delusional i dont even.
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France12886 Posts
On May 20 2024 18:52 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 11:07 goldensail wrote:
Since herO himself said PvT is now 60/40 and the balance is "perfect", I think there's a reasonable argument for PvT being somewhat Protoss favored. Let's see how Terrans adapt. So PvsT is 60/40 and Hero thinks it is balanced? And because PvsT is 60/40, TL also thinks it's balanced? lol Hero was making so many mistakes that series and if PvsT weren't 60/40, but closer to 50/50, it would have been a 5-0 for Maru.
I mean Maru also made mistakes, and the two are very close in skill. What was blatant to me was how "bad" widow mines became at harassing, and even how "bad" they seem now even vs mass zealots, as you need an incredible setup + protoss attacking in bad position for it to be worth the money.
I tend to agree with the players that were interviewed in this tournament that players will adapt (both zergs and terrans) and at Dallas, or at ESWC, it should be pretty fine balance wise.
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Terran tears are truly unrivaled in terms of entitlement.
It takes a special form of mentality to look at a tournament that was literally won by a terran, and where terrans made up 50% of the participants (the other 50% being protoss, with 0% zergs), and to somehow warp it into a lament about the state of terran because... the terran did not win hard enough in the finals? ... a player who had one miracle run in his whole life lost to another player of a similar caliber?
TvP has been hilariously lopsided in favor of terran at the top level for more than a year. This is an indisputable fact evidenced in the higher brackets of plenty of tournaments results and discussed to death on countless occasions, usually with someone explaining it away by saying that protoss is simply lacking talents.
I am more than happy that TvP has become an actual matchup again. Honestly, I did not care about most high-level TvPs for the past year because too much of it amounted to either the protoss playing flawlessly and capturing the terran's every move and making perfect reads throughout or the terran winning by default. Just imagine terran had the results protoss suffered for the past year.
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On May 21 2024 01:20 Antithesis wrote:
Terran tears are truly unrivaled in terms of entitlement.
It takes a special form of mentality to look at a tournament that was literally won by a terran, and where terrans made up 50% of the participants (the other 50% being protoss, with 0% zergs), and to somehow warp it into a lament about the state of terran because... the terran did not win hard enough in the finals? ... a player who had one miracle run in his whole life lost to another player of a similar caliber?
TvP has been hilariously lopsided in favor of terran at the top level for more than a year. This is an indisputable fact evidenced in the higher brackets of plenty of tournaments results and discussed to death on countless occasions, usually with someone explaining it away by saying that protoss is simply lacking talents.
I am more than happy that TvP has become an actual matchup again. Honestly, I did not care about most high-level TvPs for the past year because too much of it amounted to either the protoss playing flawlessly and capturing the terran's every move and making perfect reads throughout or the terran winning by default. Just imagine terran had the results protoss suffered for the past year.
Yeah I don't quite get the complaining especially when Terran is doing well in big tournaments. Toss batteries and disruptors nerfed multiple times? "Protoss players are just worse than Terran or Zerg players (even though herO was winning prior to the nerfs)."
Protoss gets buffs and Terrans get nerfs? "Wow Toss players are just worse, Terran should win harder."
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Every race fights with everything it got:
Zerg has claws, Protoss got Psiblades and Terran got tears 
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France12886 Posts
On May 21 2024 17:38 Harris1st wrote:Every race fights with everything it got: Zerg has claws, Protoss got Psiblades and Terran got tears
Weren't protoss complaining for months on reddit though?
It seemed to work as they have been omega buffed, so I guess they will keep doing it as long as it works
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On May 21 2024 18:08 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 17:38 Harris1st wrote:Every race fights with everything it got: Zerg has claws, Protoss got Psiblades and Terran got tears Weren't protoss complaining for months on reddit though? It seemed to work as they have been omega buffed, so I guess they will keep doing it as long as it works
Omega buffed to the Point where, Checks notes, they perform good but dont dominate? Or do you think the Race winning the Last few Premiers (and even performing Well outside the winner) needs Omega buffs in your opinion?
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Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it
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France12886 Posts
On May 21 2024 23:12 Durnuu wrote:
Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it
Is it hatred though? I watched more PvP this tournament with Firefly vs herO and SKillous vs herO than TvT, since I was sleeping when Maru fought GuMiho (only watched Spirit vs Maru as TvT series). Overall I enjoy the three protoss match-ups, albeit I find PvP a bit too volatile for my taste, and PvZ seems a bit too protoss favored as of late
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On May 22 2024 00:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 23:12 Durnuu wrote:
Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it Is it hatred though? I watched more PvP this tournament with Firefly vs herO and SKillous vs herO than TvT, since I was sleeping when Maru fought GuMiho (only watched Spirit vs Maru as TvT series). Overall I enjoy the three protoss match-ups, albeit I find PvP a bit too volatile for my taste, and PvZ seems a bit too protoss favored as of late
I mean i wouldnt say hatred but your takes on the terran mus are very very biased to say the least.
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On May 22 2024 00:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 23:12 Durnuu wrote:
Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it Is it hatred though? I watched more PvP this tournament with Firefly vs herO and SKillous vs herO than TvT, since I was sleeping when Maru fought GuMiho (only watched Spirit vs Maru as TvT series). Overall I enjoy the three protoss match-ups, albeit I find PvP a bit too volatile for my taste, and PvZ seems a bit too protoss favored as of late
Personally I wouldn't say PvZ is protoss favored. Rather Zergs have become too complacent because for too long they can just grow the economy quicker, trade however inefficiently, and still overwhelm - to the extent that they forgot how to deal with Protoss aggression esp. on smaller maps.
With the raw power of the Zerg arsenal, they will bounce back - mark my words.
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On May 20 2024 18:16 Poopi wrote:
Especially considering how small the scene has become, with GSL qualifiers barely eliminating anyone anymore since there aren't enough top players left playing in Korea.
To be fair, neither Classic nor Bunny qualified for this GSL, and it would be hard to put either of them as below top 20 in the world.
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On May 22 2024 01:18 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 00:14 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 23:12 Durnuu wrote:
Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it Is it hatred though? I watched more PvP this tournament with Firefly vs herO and SKillous vs herO than TvT, since I was sleeping when Maru fought GuMiho (only watched Spirit vs Maru as TvT series). Overall I enjoy the three protoss match-ups, albeit I find PvP a bit too volatile for my taste, and PvZ seems a bit too protoss favored as of late Personally I wouldn't say PvZ is protoss favored. Rather Zergs have become too complacent because for too long they can just grow the economy quicker, trade however inefficiently, and still overwhelm - to the extent that they forgot how to deal with Protoss aggression esp. on smaller maps. With the raw power of the Zerg arsenal, they will bounce back - mark my words.
That’s also a possibility. Watching EU zergs without Serral to guide them might make them look bad, so I should wait until the perfect Zerg comes back to see how Zerg truly fares in ZvT and ZvP. The other zergs ain’t at Serral’s level yet to judge the MUs
@darklycid: not always. Pretty often when I felt that Protoss struggled in PvT and terrans has it too easy, I cheered for the protoss to win. It happened a lot especially when Clem was playing. I am more Maru biased than Terran biased, so ideally the balance is as that only Maru can win the big tournaments while the other terrans can’t
Balancing around Serral / Maru / Zest would be my ideal
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On May 22 2024 02:59 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 01:18 goldensail wrote:On May 22 2024 00:14 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 23:12 Durnuu wrote:
Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it Is it hatred though? I watched more PvP this tournament with Firefly vs herO and SKillous vs herO than TvT, since I was sleeping when Maru fought GuMiho (only watched Spirit vs Maru as TvT series). Overall I enjoy the three protoss match-ups, albeit I find PvP a bit too volatile for my taste, and PvZ seems a bit too protoss favored as of late Personally I wouldn't say PvZ is protoss favored. Rather Zergs have become too complacent because for too long they can just grow the economy quicker, trade however inefficiently, and still overwhelm - to the extent that they forgot how to deal with Protoss aggression esp. on smaller maps. With the raw power of the Zerg arsenal, they will bounce back - mark my words. That’s also a possibility. Watching EU zergs without Serral to guide them might make them look bad, so I should wait until the perfect Zerg comes back to see how Zerg truly fares in ZvT and ZvP. The other zergs ain’t at Serral’s level yet to judge the MUs @darklycid: not always. Pretty often when I felt that Protoss struggled in PvT and terrans has it too easy, I cheered for the protoss to win. It happened a lot especially when Clem was playing. I am more Maru biased than Terran biased, so ideally the balance is as that only Maru can win the big tournaments while the other terrans can’t Balancing around Serral / Maru / Zest would be my ideal
There really aren't any "EU zergs" anymore. There is only Reynor and he seems pretty washed these last few months. He wouldn't even be qualified if it weren't for MaxPax fear of LAN. I doubt he can string something together for Dallas.
Serral coming directly from the military we'll see how he does but I don't expect too much. Dallas is gonna be a P and T fest but not necessarily because of the patch
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France12886 Posts
On May 22 2024 17:06 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 02:59 Poopi wrote:On May 22 2024 01:18 goldensail wrote:On May 22 2024 00:14 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 23:12 Durnuu wrote:
Poopi's unadultered hatred of Protoss is as old as the game, and even becoming a "writer" hasn't stopped it Is it hatred though? I watched more PvP this tournament with Firefly vs herO and SKillous vs herO than TvT, since I was sleeping when Maru fought GuMiho (only watched Spirit vs Maru as TvT series). Overall I enjoy the three protoss match-ups, albeit I find PvP a bit too volatile for my taste, and PvZ seems a bit too protoss favored as of late Personally I wouldn't say PvZ is protoss favored. Rather Zergs have become too complacent because for too long they can just grow the economy quicker, trade however inefficiently, and still overwhelm - to the extent that they forgot how to deal with Protoss aggression esp. on smaller maps. With the raw power of the Zerg arsenal, they will bounce back - mark my words. That’s also a possibility. Watching EU zergs without Serral to guide them might make them look bad, so I should wait until the perfect Zerg comes back to see how Zerg truly fares in ZvT and ZvP. The other zergs ain’t at Serral’s level yet to judge the MUs @darklycid: not always. Pretty often when I felt that Protoss struggled in PvT and terrans has it too easy, I cheered for the protoss to win. It happened a lot especially when Clem was playing. I am more Maru biased than Terran biased, so ideally the balance is as that only Maru can win the big tournaments while the other terrans can’t Balancing around Serral / Maru / Zest would be my ideal There really aren't any "EU zergs" anymore. There is only Reynor and he seems pretty washed these last few months. He wouldn't even be qualified if it weren't for MaxPax fear of LAN. I doubt he can string something together for Dallas. Serral coming directly from the military we'll see how he does but I don't expect too much. Dallas is gonna be a P and T fest but not necessarily because of the patch
I don't think Serral "military" training prevents him for training enough to win the whole thing.
As for Reynor, I don't think he is washed up either, the expectations put on him were from successes in very favorable patches / conditions, his results are not particularly surprising.
Lambo / Elazer are still EU zergs
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EPT
