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On May 19 2024 23:46 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2024 23:39 tigera6 wrote:On May 19 2024 23:28 Tsubbi wrote:
This time it felt more like hero throwing then maru dominating. Hero really cant keep it together when it matters.
Props to maru for his resilience. Nah, its not a throw, just how these 2 play against each other. They both trying to kill the other with a strong timing push, and depending on the army count/tech/control, they could either win the game or get smashed and die to the counter. Otherwise, I could have said Maru was throwing in game 7, up 35 army supply against herO and just walked into massive Storm, or when he decide to go mass Cyclone against Mass Phoenix. Hero threw a lot. He walked up ramps he shouldn't have walked up. I saw Hero making way more mistakes than Maru in that series.
Losing unit due to bad control during the fight isnt really throwing, it just mistake during high pressure moment. Did herO click-move his Colossi into Maru base and get killed? Or he just didnt move it back in time before it die? Not all mistake are "throw" in my opinion, depending on how egregious and the kind of impact it has on the game. Like I said, Maru fighting into storm blanket are also "throw" if you want to look at it that way.
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France12886 Posts
On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed  (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately)
To me it looked like Maru played better overall and still barely won. Given the fact that SKillous even beat the reigning world champion 3-0, protoss seems in a very good spot in PvT atm.
Hopefully the players manage to learn how to adapt to the new patch and terrans can fare better in TvP
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On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately) Well, given how Maru is much stronger than herO, him barely winning 5-4 means PvT is really favouring Protoss now.
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On May 20 2024 01:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately) To me it looked like Maru played better overall and still barely won. Given the fact that SKillous even beat the reigning world champion 3-0, protoss seems in a very good spot in PvT atm. Hopefully the players manage to learn how to adapt to the new patch and terrans can fare better in TvP
If you are for real with the world champion Argument idk what to Tell you because that one is clearly Not a Sane one.
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On May 20 2024 01:37 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 01:11 Poopi wrote:On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately) To me it looked like Maru played better overall and still barely won. Given the fact that SKillous even beat the reigning world champion 3-0, protoss seems in a very good spot in PvT atm. Hopefully the players manage to learn how to adapt to the new patch and terrans can fare better in TvP If you are for real with the world champion Argument idk what to Tell you because that one is clearly Not a Sane one.
Even if calling Oliveira the reigning world champion is somewhat silly since there have been 2 more world championship level events since then it was definitely an upset. A big one even no matter what metric you look at.
Even after the 3-0 adjusted both their scores, aligulac still has Oliveira with a higher TvP score than Skillous has in PvT.
In most of the events they both play Oliveira out places Skillous.
Oliveira has the head to head lead in both maps and series.
Oliveira has a not great but respectable ~30% winrate vs Maxpax and hero. Skillous has never beaten Maru and only has an 11% winrate vs Clem.
I think saying that match points towards PvT being in a somewhat Protoss favored state is reasonable. Not enough evidence on its own and I would like to see Toss actually win a premier tournament for the first time in almost 2 years now but I think in the current meta it really just comes down to if herO can beat Maru or Serral. He seems massively favored vs everyone else atm.
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France12886 Posts
On May 20 2024 01:37 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 01:11 Poopi wrote:On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately) To me it looked like Maru played better overall and still barely won. Given the fact that SKillous even beat the reigning world champion 3-0, protoss seems in a very good spot in PvT atm. Hopefully the players manage to learn how to adapt to the new patch and terrans can fare better in TvP If you are for real with the world champion Argument idk what to Tell you because that one is clearly Not a Sane one.
I mean Oliveira is imo clearly better than SKillous, so I am hopeful the results will get better over time in the match-up.
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Congrats to Maru for breaking the 1.5-year Korean dry spell of not winning global Premier tournaments since herO's DH Atlanta win in November 2022. Unfortunately the Protoss dry spell of not winning Premiers continues since that time. Also herO doing a Kong speedrun already getting three 2nd places in 5 months.
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On May 20 2024 01:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately) To me it looked like Maru played better overall and still barely won. Given the fact that SKillous even beat the reigning world champion 3-0, protoss seems in a very good spot in PvT atm. Hopefully the players manage to learn how to adapt to the new patch and terrans can fare better in TvP
I agree. This is exactly what it looked like. Maru played much better overall and barely won. I agree with you that PvsT is in a very good spot right now.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 20 2024 03:31 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 01:37 darklycid wrote:On May 20 2024 01:11 Poopi wrote:On May 20 2024 00:50 darklycid wrote:PvT 60/40 indeed (Tho it Looks to be more in the 50/50 direction lately) To me it looked like Maru played better overall and still barely won. Given the fact that SKillous even beat the reigning world champion 3-0, protoss seems in a very good spot in PvT atm. Hopefully the players manage to learn how to adapt to the new patch and terrans can fare better in TvP If you are for real with the world champion Argument idk what to Tell you because that one is clearly Not a Sane one. I mean Oliveira is imo clearly better than SKillous, so I am hopeful the results will get better over time in the match-up.
Heh, the Katowice run does a lot of heavy lifting. Olivera is a bit better overall outside of it, but it's not like Skillous getting the 3-0 came out of nowhere, Skillous is playing well atm and Oliveira has been shaky.
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I dont See any Support for the Claim of pvt being toss favored, how you feel about who played better is of No Matter and there are No results to Back that Up. Now If you'd argue pvt Looks competitive currently and it is Now more of the better Player on that day winning i'd be inclined to agree.
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Oliveira said at the start that he prepped A LOT for this event with fellow Chinese Protoss, I'm sure he's a bit devastated with the outcome esp. in front of his home crowd. I don't think he played poorly, but TvP balance has definitely shifted to some extent.
We all saw how the mine nerf had a huge impact on its effectiveness in early game harasses (not just for Oliveira but also for Maru), whereas early game Terran units feel fragile and less mobile against Protoss harass (e.g. bio before stim against phoenix or stalkers, even before blink) .
Terran needs to hit critical timings, get Tanks sieged in range of critical infra, and use multi-prong attacks (e.g. Libs) to tax Protoss multi-tasking during engagements (Maru does this quite well). But It seems to me that he should get ghosts out earlier to damage shields and counter storm. And while he already does a good job hunting down observers I wonder if he can do this even more consciously by getting a raven/viking out and hunt obs more proactively. Of course the build time of obs has been reduced so perhaps not worth it? It does feel Protoss now has better situational awareness especially in early to mid game when Terran cannot afford to scan a lot.
Since herO himself said PvT is now 60/40 and the balance is "perfect", I think there's a reasonable argument for PvT being somewhat Protoss favored. Let's see how Terrans adapt.
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Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
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On May 20 2024 11:22 tigera6 wrote:
Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
complete macro play (witthout first doing damage) is almost impossible in tvp because of how much better you need to be in late game (army control, multitask and macro). I completely agree that most terrans try to fake out toss player with some mind game and do 5min push, be it 2-1-1, 1-1-1, 3-1 or 3rax, doesnt really matter.
Maru literally did it every game and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnt, but if you dont do that timing you feel like your way behind. What happened after those timing when Hero survived? he threw really hard, attacks into chokes into ramps, bad control in fights, bad decision making. Really felt like less of Maru winning and more of Hero just throwing.
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China6329 Posts
On May 20 2024 03:34 argonautdice wrote:
Congrats to Maru for breaking the 1.5-year Korean dry spell of not winning global Premier tournaments since herO's DH Atlanta win in November 2022. Unfortunately the Protoss dry spell of not winning Premiers continues since that time. Also herO doing a Kong speedrun already getting three 2nd places in 5 months.
Technically this is classified as a Major so nothing has changed kek.
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On May 20 2024 14:20 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 03:34 argonautdice wrote:
Congrats to Maru for breaking the 1.5-year Korean dry spell of not winning global Premier tournaments since herO's DH Atlanta win in November 2022. Unfortunately the Protoss dry spell of not winning Premiers continues since that time. Also herO doing a Kong speedrun already getting three 2nd places in 5 months. Technically this is classified as a Major so nothing has changed kek.
 StarsWar 11 says it's Premier?
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On May 20 2024 12:54 dph114 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 11:22 tigera6 wrote:
Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
complete macro play (witthout first doing damage) is almost impossible in tvp because of how much better you need to be in late game (army control, multitask and macro). I completely agree that most terrans try to fake out toss player with some mind game and do 5min push, be it 2-1-1, 1-1-1, 3-1 or 3rax, doesnt really matter. Maru literally did it every game and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnt, but if you dont do that timing you feel like your way behind. What happened after those timing when Hero survived? he threw really hard, attacks into chokes into ramps, bad control in fights, bad decision making. Really felt like less of Maru winning and more of Hero just throwing.
You must have missed the games when herO defended and then countered and win? You cant have it both way, praise him for being decisive and end the game, and call it a throw when he doesnt win. herO was simply being true to his style, and I think his attack would have ended alot of Terrans right there. Could he play more patiently and get out more units, better tech? Sure, but that also give Maru more time to set up defense, get out more Ghost - Viking and transition to Libs. It was a decision that herO made knowingly and he will probably do it again the next time they play.
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China6329 Posts
On May 20 2024 15:05 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 14:20 digmouse wrote:On May 20 2024 03:34 argonautdice wrote:
Congrats to Maru for breaking the 1.5-year Korean dry spell of not winning global Premier tournaments since herO's DH Atlanta win in November 2022. Unfortunately the Protoss dry spell of not winning Premiers continues since that time. Also herO doing a Kong speedrun already getting three 2nd places in 5 months. Technically this is classified as a Major so nothing has changed kek. StarsWar 11 says it's Premier?
Oh it got reclassified huh.
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On May 20 2024 11:22 tigera6 wrote:
Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
Again Show me Numbers for that. Lets Looks at recent tournaments: gsl s1 2t ro4 t win, EU regional: 3t ro4 t win, na 1t ro4 p win (was even Like this when p was Seen as the weakest Race), Asia: 2t ro4 t win. So yeah i dont See any Support for These Claims.
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On May 20 2024 18:05 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 11:22 tigera6 wrote:
Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
Again Show me Numbers for that. Lets Looks at recent tournaments: gsl s1 2t ro4 t win, EU regional: 3t ro4 t win, na 1t ro4 p win (was even Like this when p was Seen as the weakest Race), Asia: 2t ro4 t win. So yeah i dont See any Support for These Claims.
Just look at regional participant list eu: more protoss players than terran and zerg combined, asia: more protoss players and terran and zerg combined. Na : pretty even numbers.
honestly right now both pvz and pvt is protoss favored. You gonna keep buffing toss till they finally win something? it will be top16 14toss 1terran and 1zerg. Even then you will claim its balanced cuz in top4 it will be 2p 1t and 1z.
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France12886 Posts
On May 20 2024 18:05 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 11:22 tigera6 wrote:
Lets put it this way, PvT is slighly Protoss favored unless you are Clem or Maru, with the former is still questionable because all he play against is MaxPax and his perfect macro time. Players with different style (Nightmare, Firefly) have proven to give Clem a fit at times. Cure used to be THE best TvP player in the world, but now he lost TvP more frequently, and has openly stated some challenge about the matchup since the previous balance change.
Most of Terran win against Protoss these days are within 5-6 minutes with a committed 2 base push, or deal some heavy damage (taking down the 3rd base, got some worker kills, ect.) and come back later to finish them up. Byun just played a macro style 3CC build against Nightmare in the GSL, and he got beaten because he cant get map control, allow Protoss to expand easily and lost in the macro game.
Again Show me Numbers for that. Lets Looks at recent tournaments: gsl s1 2t ro4 t win, EU regional: 3t ro4 t win, na 1t ro4 p win (was even Like this when p was Seen as the weakest Race), Asia: 2t ro4 t win. So yeah i dont See any Support for These Claims.
Well, quantitative analysis in Starcraft 2 is pretty tough since there are barely any pros left in the scene, sample sizes will be particularly small. This is why qualitative analysis can provide better results, and there has been plenty of hints towards protoss being in a good state in PvT currently: Firefly destroying Clem in the WTL 3-0, SKillous beating Oliveira 3-0 with ease, Maru completely demolishing Spirit and GuMiho in the mirror match-up but heavily struggling to beat herO, Cure who was top 2 or better in TvP for multiple years getting beaten over and over again by NightMare...
I don't see how the number of terrans in a GSL (where there are not only terrans and protoss but also zergs) are indicative numbers of the state of TvP/PvT, especially compared to fine qualitative analysis like the post you quoted: 2 base pushes, at which timing, etc.
Sure, we are plebs so maybe tigera6 qualitative analysis is utterly false, and the T / P progamers have a vastly different opinion about the games etc., but it's imho a better way to look at the match-up than checking which race won which tournament and the race representation. Especially considering how small the scene has become, with GSL qualifiers barely eliminating anyone anymore since there aren't enough top players left playing in Korea.
I get where you are coming from though, due to reasons (cough cough MaxPax not playing offline, and several top KR protoss gone to the military or playing stormgate), protoss has been under represented at the top level. Not sure if balance was the main culprit for that though.
I wanted to keep my Vitality x Onsyde Maru jersey for Esports World Cup to give Maru maximum energy, but he won GSL Code S AND this tournament... I will take it out of its blister and wear it to work tomorrow, probably 
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