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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 04 2023 05:02 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 03:35 Argonauta wrote:On August 04 2023 03:24 TaKeTV wrote:
I would love to elaborate on the reasoning map 1 was a massive throw.
Cure had at times 8 base against the likes of 3-4. Maru was going for what he usually does - a massive tank/viking/raven army. This isn't news to viewers, casters and it shouldnt be news to Cure. He saw that. The army is strong and Maru can turn games around yet why is losing not okay here?
Cure has so many bases and he NEEDS TO have a plan. He knows the only losing scenarios are:
- taking head on engagements against the superior army
- allowing Marus army to get into a position where it can threaten your production
If Maru gets into position, you can lose even with a great advantage. The throw is not having the ability to forsee whats happening or the farsight on your win conditions. He had ressources to add 3-4 starports for example at any outside base and go for 8-10 vikings to snipe Marus buildings.
He could have went for more production on the outside bases (i.e 2 factories, etc) to set up a proper defence with units. There are a lot of plays. Most ideally though: Take your advantage of 8 base and do not engage in basetrading or letting Maru in position easy.
The best scenario is replicating the army of Maru early enough. You don't need to match it 1-1 since you will be capable of outproducing it and zerging it down, but simply ignoring any options and then losing units all over the place was a throw.
Maru played that PERFECTLY but he could have never won that if Cure didn't poorly play it. I am sure if you pause the game and give Cure 5 min to think about it he will do many of those things perfectly, the problem is that few SC2 players are that cold blooded. Actually I would say only Maru and maybe Serral if it wasnt for his early GG vs Ragna at kato are at that level. I thought about doing that. If a game gets crazy, just pause, ask for a minute and think what I need to do to win (and hope my opponent doesnt). Never did it though, mostly because I always forget but also because its kind of a dick move to pause without a valid reason. Wouldnt work in pro games of course, you cant pause for no reason there.
Aye plus I always found regardless of the game state a pause would sorta take me out of my rhythm and groove
Bit of a rough one, Maru played out the hand he was dealt very well, not without some fortune in terms of avoiding Cure seeing his moveouts and slipping by. Base trades can go that way sometimes
Not throwing up a bunch of extra star ports especially way earlier with a huge income lead was a mistake though for sure.
Still, good signs from Cure in the matchup, he’d basically won set 1, a moral victory if he doesn’t dwell on the semi-throw. Would fancy him against the other Ts in attendance in the mirror for sure
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On August 03 2023 22:00 Sim999 wrote:
Clem is mechanically insane but clearly he is not the most creative / intelligent player out there... fortunately for him we are in an era that favor this kind of player.
and why exactly do you think Clem is not creative or intelligent...?
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Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine.
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Why the F Solar never make a single Infestor against this mass Marine style? I dont need him to be Dark, but he can just hit a couple Fungal.
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On August 04 2023 05:39 tigera6 wrote:
Why the F Solar never make a single Infestor against this mass Marine style? I dont need him to be Dark, but he can just hit a couple Fungal.
He would have been fine if he had 40 or 50 banes vs 80 marines instead of just 25.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine.
I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs
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On August 04 2023 05:33 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 22:00 Sim999 wrote:
Clem is mechanically insane but clearly he is not the most creative / intelligent player out there... fortunately for him we are in an era that favor this kind of player. and why exactly do you think Clem is not creative or intelligent...?
Well, not intelligent is a bit harsh, but he's clearly a quite one-dimensional player who often doesn't seem to have an answer when he runs into a wall with his style
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On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs
I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 04 2023 05:33 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 22:00 Sim999 wrote:
Clem is mechanically insane but clearly he is not the most creative / intelligent player out there... fortunately for him we are in an era that favor this kind of player. and why exactly do you think Clem is not creative or intelligent...?
I mean he didn’t say he wasn’t creative or intelligent to be fair
It’s not really the first thing that springs to mind describing his play, very consistent gameplans and rides his stellar mechanics to frequent victories
Reminds me a lot of Innovation when he first blew onto the scene, and latter day Inno when he was just as rigid but without the crazy mechanical advantage
And I mean if you have Clem level mechanics it is a pretty intelligent choice to play mostly like that. You’re not relying on luck or big gambits.
You do see the limitations when he can’t just get advantages from being relentlessly fast and clean, especially in TvT where it’s more tactical than a mechanical slugfest
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On August 04 2023 05:53 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 05:33 CicadaSC wrote:On August 03 2023 22:00 Sim999 wrote:
Clem is mechanically insane but clearly he is not the most creative / intelligent player out there... fortunately for him we are in an era that favor this kind of player. and why exactly do you think Clem is not creative or intelligent...? I mean he didn’t say he wasn’t creative or intelligent to be fair It’s not really the first thing that springs to mind describing his play, very consistent gameplans and rides his stellar mechanics to frequent victories Reminds me a lot of Innovation when he first blew onto the scene, and latter day Inno when he was just as rigid but without the crazy mechanical advantage
And I mean if you have Clem level mechanics it is a pretty intelligent choice to play mostly like that. You’re not relying on luck or big gambits. You do see the limitations when he can’t just get advantages from being relentlessly fast and clean, especially in TvT where it’s more tactical than a mechanical slugfest
Except when it doesn't work. It's clearly not enough to overcome Solar, but he still refuses to change things up
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Solar style currently match up well against Clem, where massing a huge army, or split them into 2 and micro. Solar weakness, imo, is his inability to deal with multiprong. If Clem can just add 2 more Medivac into the exteriror base while his main army keep Solar focused at the front, he could take avantage of that like Maru usually does.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
I gotta say I’ve been impressed with Solar’s showing here so far, solid stuff from him lately
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France13018 Posts
On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory.
Yeah having to play TvZ on NA east ping is kinda dumb for a 400k $ tournament :/. It hurts Clem's style much more.
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On August 04 2023 06:03 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory. Yeah having to play TvZ on NA east ping is kinda dumb for a 400k $ tournament :/. It hurts Clem's style much more.
Do we know for sure that this is what they are doing? That's dumb as hell.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 04 2023 05:58 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 05:53 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:33 CicadaSC wrote:On August 03 2023 22:00 Sim999 wrote:
Clem is mechanically insane but clearly he is not the most creative / intelligent player out there... fortunately for him we are in an era that favor this kind of player. and why exactly do you think Clem is not creative or intelligent...? I mean he didn’t say he wasn’t creative or intelligent to be fair It’s not really the first thing that springs to mind describing his play, very consistent gameplans and rides his stellar mechanics to frequent victories Reminds me a lot of Innovation when he first blew onto the scene, and latter day Inno when he was just as rigid but without the crazy mechanical advantage
And I mean if you have Clem level mechanics it is a pretty intelligent choice to play mostly like that. You’re not relying on luck or big gambits. You do see the limitations when he can’t just get advantages from being relentlessly fast and clean, especially in TvT where it’s more tactical than a mechanical slugfest Except when it doesn't work. It's clearly not enough to overcome Solar, but he still refuses to change things up
I mean he did best Dark, which was probably the taller order, but yeah. He’s sitting alright he just probably lost the series we’d have thought was his more likely to win
On the flip side if he pulled some pocket builds out and got smashed, then we’d be saying ‘oh you can go toe to toe straight up, it’s your strength why take such risks?’ no doubt
I do agree some more variety would probably help him out though, I mean you don’t have to go full Gumiho on it just be a bit less one-note
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France13018 Posts
On August 04 2023 06:05 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 06:03 Poopi wrote:On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory. Yeah having to play TvZ on NA east ping is kinda dumb for a 400k $ tournament :/. It hurts Clem's style much more. Do we know for sure that this is what they are doing? That's dumb as hell.
I don't think they have a choice unfortunately, but Kashim is physically at the event and confirmed ping is around 70-80, which is what you get from France with a good internet to NA east.
I mean Clem might struggle versus Solar anyways, but his style is more relient on being super clean. Him struggling more versus KR zergs might just be because he mostly plays versus them online (plus his nerves might prevent him from playing his best offline ^^')
Solid showing from Solar and Maru, Onsyde is looking strong, while Reynor is still the 50-50 guy :D
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On August 04 2023 06:07 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 06:05 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 04 2023 06:03 Poopi wrote:On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory. Yeah having to play TvZ on NA east ping is kinda dumb for a 400k $ tournament :/. It hurts Clem's style much more. Do we know for sure that this is what they are doing? That's dumb as hell. I don't think they have a choice unfortunately, but Kashim is physically at the event and confirmed ping is around 70-80, which is what you get from France with a good internet to NA east. I mean Clem might struggle versus Solar anyways, but his style is more relient on being super clean. Him struggling more versus KR zergs might just be because he mostly plays versus them online (plus his nerves might prevent him from playing his best offline ^^') Solid showing from Solar and Maru, Onsyde is looking strong, while Reynor is still the 50-50 guy :D
Oh I don't doubt that Solar is more than capable of doing to Clem what he just did. Clem doesn't practice against Solar's style and Solar is MUCH better at TvZ than he gets credit for. He just has the unfortunate distinction of being Maru's whipping boy so people think he's worse at the match up than he actually is.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 04 2023 06:07 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 06:05 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 04 2023 06:03 Poopi wrote:On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory. Yeah having to play TvZ on NA east ping is kinda dumb for a 400k $ tournament :/. It hurts Clem's style much more. Do we know for sure that this is what they are doing? That's dumb as hell. I don't think they have a choice unfortunately, but Kashim is physically at the event and confirmed ping is around 70-80, which is what you get from France with a good internet to NA east. I mean Clem might struggle versus Solar anyways, but his style is more relient on being super clean. Him struggling more versus KR zergs might just be because he mostly plays versus them online (plus his nerves might prevent him from playing his best offline ^^') Solid showing from Solar and Maru, Onsyde is looking strong, while Reynor is still the 50-50 guy :D
Wait why is this huge hyped prize pool tournament being played at 70-80 estimated ping exactly? This is news to me
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On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory.
See, but that's funny, since Clem is on a 7-0 streak against Dark in series lately, but is on a 0-6 losing streak vs Solar in series. By eye, that doesn't make a lot of sense, since Dark is one of the most resourceful and tricky and offbeat players to play against, while Clem excels in straight-up games, and Solar is quite a straight-up player. But the data don't lie.
My guess is that Clem really respects Dark's craftiness and plays a little more patiently, and Dark's tendency to have bad early games makes it hard to convert wins without forcing mistakes via gimmicks, which won't work vs patient players (see Dark's games vs Maru / Cure as well). I think that vs the best players, Dark's early game basically dictates whether he can win or not, and Clem's taken advantage of this by simply playing offbeat early games into solid patient play.
Solar is very different in that his early game is quite consistently good and textbook, and he wins by being very decisive with his hydra ling bane (HLB) into lurker viper play (much more Rogue-like). There's not really a simple way to get ahead vs Solar, and you just have to execute your active mid game better. Clem obviously has insanely good active mid and late game TvZ, but it's tailored to the EU Zergs, and Solar has equally insanely good ZvT that just seems a little more robust, giving him the consistency to win regularly of late. There's no obvious mindset to beat Solar, you just have to out play him (or proxy rax him kek)
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On August 04 2023 06:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2023 06:07 Poopi wrote:On August 04 2023 06:05 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 04 2023 06:03 Poopi wrote:On August 04 2023 05:48 dysenterymd wrote:On August 04 2023 05:44 WombaT wrote:On August 04 2023 05:35 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Interesting that Solar has such a good record vs Clem. Wasn't aware of that. Find it kind of strange given how bad Solar's record vs Maru is.
Solar started the big fight with 25 banes vs 80 marine. I find it generally strange how Clem’s record holds up versus almost anyone else in TvZ versus Reynor and Serral but is generally notably worse against Korean Zergs I think Clem is just amazing at low ping online play and suffers offline/with ping. Dark/Rogue (while he was around) are tricky so it makes sense that Clem would struggle against them, but Solar likes to brawl so Clem should match up fine against him in theory. Yeah having to play TvZ on NA east ping is kinda dumb for a 400k $ tournament :/. It hurts Clem's style much more. Do we know for sure that this is what they are doing? That's dumb as hell. I don't think they have a choice unfortunately, but Kashim is physically at the event and confirmed ping is around 70-80, which is what you get from France with a good internet to NA east. I mean Clem might struggle versus Solar anyways, but his style is more relient on being super clean. Him struggling more versus KR zergs might just be because he mostly plays versus them online (plus his nerves might prevent him from playing his best offline ^^') Solid showing from Solar and Maru, Onsyde is looking strong, while Reynor is still the 50-50 guy :D Wait why is this huge hyped prize pool tournament being played at 70-80 estimated ping exactly? This is news to me
because they are offline in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and the ping to the servers isnt as good as an event hosted in for example Europe
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EPT
