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On August 06 2023 22:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance? I used to think the way that you do, but 10 years of constantly shifting metas and different balances have left us with a REMARKABLE gap in the top Protoss players from players of the other two races. Think about it. In all of the GOAT debates why is the closest Protoss player like a DISTANT 10th or 11th behind the Zergs or Terrans? sOs is the most successful Protoss of all time in SC2 in terms of big wins and absolutely no one considers him one of the top players to play the game. Maybe the smartest but absolutely not the most skilled in the conventional sense. Over a long enough timeframe and with enough data, the pattern that I see is that Protoss itself is not designed in a way that it produces top players. It could be that the way the race is designed draws lower skilled players to it, because they are able to rise up the ranks easier. It could be that the race has a lower ceiling in terms of what is possible to do with it at the top level and so Protoss players are capped at a ceiling below what top Zergs and Terrans are capable of. I think it's a combination of both. I think Protoss design inherently makes it easier to win with if you are not as skilled as your opponent, and that same design holds it back when the skill level gets high enough. Is that unfair to the players? Absolutely. But that isn't a balance problem, that's a longstanding design problem. One that has created the very real gap in skill between the top players of the various races. I disagree with this because the Protoss underperformance only happened after a series of nerfs that got never reverted, so it doesn't seem to be a fundamental design issue. In HotS Protoss was probably the best performing race and had the highest amount of consistent top performers with Zest, Classic, Rain, PartinG, sOs, herO, Dear. Even in 2016-2018 Stats was probably overall the best player. Then the MSC got removed, Immortals and Warpprism got nerfed, charge got nerfed, and a few other things I think - and suddenly Protoss couldn't win shit anymore. It's true that Protoss got hit hardest by players leaving for military, but still Stats, Zest, Classic, Trap and herO weren't that succesful anymore in their last year(s) before leaving, so I don't think them still being active (or without having a 2 year military break) would change that much So let me ask you this then. Do you want the Mothership Core to come back? If a unit that broken and that hated by the community (and it is absolutely hated I have a hard time believing ANYONE can deny that) was the crutch that was keeping Protoss winrates up, is that the trade off we want to have? We want to just give Protoss a bandaid like that just so it can win against players like Maru, Serral and Cure? I want you to think on that because I have a second point. I don't think the reason why Protoss is doing so much worse than in HoTS has all that much to do with the Mothership Core. I think that's part of it, but I don't think that's the biggest reason. I think the biggest reason why Protoss is doing so much worse in LoTV is because of the way the economy has changed. The game is played faster and more spread out now, and this goes against the way Protoss is designed to play. For a race that relies so much on early game trickery, and then deathball play in the late game, the current LoTV meta is VERY unfriendly to that. The early game is so much shorter than it was in HoTS or WoL, removing a lot of the opporunities that used to exist for Protoss to gain advantages, and Protoss units are designed in such a way that they can only function by supporting each other in large groups. They have never been good at dividing up and fighting in small groups over larger areas of the map the way LoTV is played now. That dynamic has everything to do with the way Warp Gate is designed and I've ranted about that enough that I don't feel like repeating myself, but you get where I'm going with this. I do think the most recent balance patch was horrible for Protoss. I have all sorts of issues with the latest balance patch, like why the fuck did we buff Zerg when Zerg obviously didn't need it for example. But reversing it isn't going to bring Protoss into equilibrium with the other races. There's still going to be more players at the absolute top playing Terran and Zerg than Protoss, just like there's probably always going to be WAY more players in the qualifiers and early rounds playing Protoss. I do support reverting the nerfs to Protoss that were in that patch but I don't think this issue is going to go away. Protoss hasn't been doing as well as Terran or Zerg for a lot longer than just the last patch cycle. Reverting it, will throw them a bone, but it won't fix the problems. Because the problem is in their design.
I think the reason why Toss relies so much in grouped armies and therefore isnt as competitive in current meta, which needs a lot of spreaded units, is because a lot of its units require casting. Stalkers with blink, Sentries, Templars and Disruptors.
Just look to herO when he starts to multi task. Disruptos value decrease enourmously. Then, they make archons to be a kind of anchor... which against a terra that has a decent count of ghost is useless...
I think both disruptor and archon could have a change, and maybe ghosts too.
Disruptor needs to be less a volatile weapon. And Archon could get its life enhanced, in exchange for shields. Ghosts could have EMP's maximum damage reduced.
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On August 06 2023 23:07 WombaT wrote:
Like me/my brother will play some FIFA to do challenges my kiddo can’t quite manage and even at relatively low rank on his account it’s tough to pull off a win if we are pulling 70+ ping. Different type of game of course, with more impactful but fewer actions but it’s definitely way harder to time things
I always find it surreal reading these things from South Africa.
I think the lowest ping number I have ever seen in my life, on a screen in one of my own games of any kind, was just above 150.
The average is somewhere between 190 to 270, which is in the regime of human visual reaction time :|
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plague + ultras is crazy LUL
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Ye old Fantasy GG timing.
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At least one game, fantasy still winning this most likely, but hey
This was a great game
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 06 2023 23:27 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 23:07 WombaT wrote:
Like me/my brother will play some FIFA to do challenges my kiddo can’t quite manage and even at relatively low rank on his account it’s tough to pull off a win if we are pulling 70+ ping. Different type of game of course, with more impactful but fewer actions but it’s definitely way harder to time things I always find it surreal reading these things from South Africa. I think the lowest ping number I have ever seen in my life, on a screen in one of my own games of any kind, was just above 150. The average is somewhere between 190 to 270, which is in the regime of human visual reaction time :|
Go play something like marine splitting challenges and cut your net connection so you go offline, there’s a huge difference in responsiveness.
It’s really super noticeable. A lot of it isn’t really down to reaction but predictability of response and timing. If you’re used to 150 ping all the time you adapt to it, but as per my FIFA example it’s a much less mechanical game that is all about timing and a small difference can throw it way off
It was fine having online tournaments with ping during Covid, the alternative was no tournament but having the reported ping levels for this giant prestige tournament takes away from it.
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Can we get Fantasy back to play SC2?
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 07 2023 00:31 tigera6 wrote:
Can we get Fantasy get back to play SC2?
Or at least play ASL 
Impressive showing! I think tail end of his SC2 career Fantasy was really looking like he was about to really breakthrough to being a top, top player
Understand he didn’t quite enjoy it as much so fair enough
Biggest SC2 what if for me was if Bisu played Terran that much more obviously suited his skillset and what he could have done if he’d tried that
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On August 07 2023 00:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2023 00:31 tigera6 wrote:
Can we get Fantasy get back to play SC2? Or at least play ASL Impressive showing! I think tail end of his SC2 career Fantasy was really looking like he was about to really breakthrough to being a top, top player Understand he didn’t quite enjoy it as much so fair enough Biggest SC2 what if for me was if Bisu played Terran that much more obviously suited his skillset and what he could have done if he’d tried that
didnt Fantasy said he enjoyed more sc2? i thought he played bw because his followers
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On August 07 2023 00:36 Topin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2023 00:34 WombaT wrote:On August 07 2023 00:31 tigera6 wrote:
Can we get Fantasy get back to play SC2? Or at least play ASL Impressive showing! I think tail end of his SC2 career Fantasy was really looking like he was about to really breakthrough to being a top, top player Understand he didn’t quite enjoy it as much so fair enough Biggest SC2 what if for me was if Bisu played Terran that much more obviously suited his skillset and what he could have done if he’d tried that didnt Fantasy said he enjoyed more sc2? i thought he played bw because his followers
Yeah I remember that too
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 07 2023 00:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2023 00:36 Topin wrote:On August 07 2023 00:34 WombaT wrote:On August 07 2023 00:31 tigera6 wrote:
Can we get Fantasy get back to play SC2? Or at least play ASL Impressive showing! I think tail end of his SC2 career Fantasy was really looking like he was about to really breakthrough to being a top, top player Understand he didn’t quite enjoy it as much so fair enough Biggest SC2 what if for me was if Bisu played Terran that much more obviously suited his skillset and what he could have done if he’d tried that didnt Fantasy said he enjoyed more sc2? i thought he played bw because his followers Yeah I remember that too
Yeah my bad he did say that, I just misremembered.
Iirc he was enjoying the game itself more for various reasons but going back to BW made more sense for him
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Reynor's ZvT look scary. Need someone caliber as Maru to rival him.
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+ Show Spoiler +got 12 pooled twice and then lost against a ling flood+early roach warren push in the third game
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Reynor is in championship mode holy shit
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So many mistakes small and big from Clem, Reynor is really putting the pressure on him. He will have to play tighter and not be too shaken by this bad start.
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France13023 Posts
On August 07 2023 01:15 swarminfestor wrote:
Reynor's ZvT look scary. Need someone caliber as Maru to rival him.
Yeah it’s gonna be tough for Clem to beat Reynor with ping, he isn’t as good defensively as Maru
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
Tight enough that I don’t think with a few adjustments Clem can’t pull it off but very impressive game 1 from Reynor here
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EPT
