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On August 06 2023 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance? I used to think the way that you do, but 10 years of constantly shifting metas and different balances have left us with a REMARKABLE gap in the top Protoss players from players of the other two races. Think about it. In all of the GOAT debates why is the closest Protoss player like a DISTANT 10th or 11th behind the Zergs or Terrans? sOs is the most successful Protoss of all time in SC2 in terms of big wins and absolutely no one considers him one of the top players to play the game. Maybe the smartest but absolutely not the most skilled in the conventional sense. Over a long enough timeframe and with enough data, the pattern that I see is that Protoss itself is not designed in a way that it produces top players. It could be that the way the race is designed draws lower skilled players to it, because they are able to rise up the ranks easier. It could be that the race has a lower ceiling in terms of what is possible to do with it at the top level and so Protoss players are capped at a ceiling below what top Zergs and Terrans are capable of. I think it's a combination of both. I think Protoss design inherently makes it easier to win with if you are not as skilled as your opponent, and that same design holds it back when the skill level gets high enough. Is that unfair to the players? Absolutely. But that isn't a balance problem, that's a longstanding design problem. One that has created the very real gap in skill between the top players of the various races. I disagree with this because the Protoss underperformance only happened after a series of nerfs that got never reverted, so it doesn't seem to be a fundamental design issue. In HotS Protoss was probably the best performing race and had the highest amount of consistent top performers with Zest, Classic, Rain, PartinG, sOs, herO, Dear. Even in 2016-2018 Stats was probably overall the best player. Then the MSC got removed, Immortals and Warpprism got nerfed, charge got nerfed, and a few other things I think - and suddenly Protoss couldn't win shit anymore. It's true that Protoss got hit hardest by players leaving for military, but still Stats, Zest, Classic, Trap and herO weren't that succesful anymore in their last year(s) before leaving, so I don't think them still being active (or without having a 2 year military break) would change that much
So let me ask you this then. Do you want the Mothership Core to come back? If a unit that broken and that hated by the community (and it is absolutely hated I have a hard time believing ANYONE can deny that) was the crutch that was keeping Protoss winrates up, is that the trade off we want to have? We want to just give Protoss a bandaid like that just so it can win against players like Maru, Serral and Cure? I want you to think on that because I have a second point.
I don't think the reason why Protoss is doing so much worse than in HoTS has all that much to do with the Mothership Core. I think that's part of it, but I don't think that's the biggest reason. I think the biggest reason why Protoss is doing so much worse in LoTV is because of the way the economy has changed. The game is played faster and more spread out now, and this goes against the way Protoss is designed to play.
For a race that relies so much on early game trickery, and then deathball play in the late game, the current LoTV meta is VERY unfriendly to that. The early game is so much shorter than it was in HoTS or WoL, removing a lot of the opporunities that used to exist for Protoss to gain advantages, and Protoss units are designed in such a way that they can only function by supporting each other in large groups. They have never been good at dividing up and fighting in small groups over larger areas of the map the way LoTV is played now. That dynamic has everything to do with the way Warp Gate is designed and I've ranted about that enough that I don't feel like repeating myself, but you get where I'm going with this.
I do think the most recent balance patch was horrible for Protoss. I have all sorts of issues with the latest balance patch, like why the fuck did we buff Zerg when Zerg obviously didn't need it for example. But reversing it isn't going to bring Protoss into equilibrium with the other races. There's still going to be more players at the absolute top playing Terran and Zerg than Protoss, just like there's probably always going to be WAY more players in the qualifiers and early rounds playing Protoss. I do support reverting the nerfs to Protoss that were in that patch but I don't think this issue is going to go away. Protoss hasn't been doing as well as Terran or Zerg for a lot longer than just the last patch cycle. Reverting it, will throw them a bone, but it won't fix the problems. Because the problem is in their design.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance?
Classic’s not a PvT monster in the way Cure is a TvP monster, which does skew it a little.
For my money Protoss was last actually good decent when Trap was at his peak. Which was quite a long span and Trap really doesn’t get the credit he deserves.
In that span Zest made a GSL final and a Katowice final, despite being pretty inconsistent. Trap made GSL finals, won multiple premiers including internationals and Super Tournaments and Zoun was sticking up decent results especially in ST. Creator made a GSL final too
Stats was there but he wasn’t really the force he was.
Now literally all of those players are gone, and the military rotation has herO, Classic and Stats back into rotation. herO hit the ground running and if anything has dropped off again, Classic is only now hitting his stride and Stats hasn’t quite got back there yet.
Having ballpark half your best roster unavailable over the last 2/3 years really doesn’t help either. Balance wise PvT currently being tough is a big issue too currently in a region with a lot of top Ts.
Someone pointed out an interesting stat, you have to go as far down as Trigger to find a player with PvT as their best matchup currently according to Aligulac. Whereas while being rounded, Trap’s PvT was a cut above his other matchups.
Players have different strengths and abilities in different matchups, if there’s one stat that indicates PvT isn’t in a good state it’s that not a single Protoss of consequence has it as their best matchup. A top level PvT specialist/sniper just outright doesn’t exist right now.
Terran’s current number 1 and 2 in Maru and Cure have their best matchups as TvZ and TvP on the contrast. Like the smallest size possible sample you can take and you get that matchup specialisation diverging immediately.
Zergs in Korea are going to be hit with that hammer soon btw given Rogue’s already gone and Dark was the other one really carrying the race. Solar’s great form and Rag being a good player notwithstanding
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Well, I don't expect Protoss to perform exactly as well as Zerg and Terran - here the discrepancy of number of top players comes into play. But I expect them to do better than they do currently - and here a balance patch would certainly help.
When it's a rarity to see a Protoss taking even a single playoff series despite herO and Classic who have combined won like 14 premier tournaments playing in them, it's a balance issue for me.
That doesn't mean the game is only balanced when each race wins 33% of tournaments.
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On August 06 2023 22:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance? Classic’s not a PvT monster in the way Cure is a TvP monster, which does skew it a little. For my money Protoss was last actually good decent when Trap was at his peak. Which was quite a long span and Trap really doesn’t get the credit he deserves. In that span Zest made a GSL final and a Katowice final, despite being pretty inconsistent. Trap made GSL finals, won multiple premiers including internationals and Super Tournaments and Zoun was sticking up decent results especially in ST. Creator made a GSL final too Stats was there but he wasn’t really the force he was. Now literally all of those players are gone, and the military rotation has herO, Classic and Stats back into rotation. herO hit the ground running and if anything has dropped off again, Classic is only now hitting his stride and Stats hasn’t quite got back there yet. Having ballpark half your best roster unavailable over the last 2/3 years really doesn’t help either. Balance wise PvT currently being tough is a big issue too currently in a region with a lot of top Ts. Someone pointed out an interesting stat, you have to go as far down as Trigger to find a player with PvT as their best matchup currently according to Aligulac. Whereas while being rounded, Trap’s PvT was a cut above his other matchups. Players have different strengths and abilities in different matchups, if there’s one stat that indicates PvT isn’t in a good state it’s that not a single Protoss of consequence has it as their best matchup. A top level PvT specialist/sniper just outright doesn’t exist right now. Terran’s current number 1 and 2 in Maru and Cure have their best matchups as TvZ and TvP on the contrast. Like the smallest size possible sample you can take and you get that matchup specialisation diverging immediately. Zergs in Korea are going to be hit with that hammer soon btw given Rogue’s already gone and Dark was the other one really carrying the race. Solar’s great form and Rag being a good player notwithstanding
Hopefully Rogue returns when Dark leaves. If Rogue retires, Zerg in Korea is fucked.
And so that is going to beg the debate. Do we buff Zerg because it can't win GSL if Dark and Rogue are gone? You absolutely know people are going to try and argue that. Do we nerf Terran because of GSL results when it's obvious that there are just better Terrans in GSL than the other two races?
This is the fragility of balancing around only the top results and only in the top tournaments.
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I agree with you guys, for sure. But hopefully JD isn't hydra busting again
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On August 06 2023 22:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:14 WombaT wrote:On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance? Classic’s not a PvT monster in the way Cure is a TvP monster, which does skew it a little. For my money Protoss was last actually good decent when Trap was at his peak. Which was quite a long span and Trap really doesn’t get the credit he deserves. In that span Zest made a GSL final and a Katowice final, despite being pretty inconsistent. Trap made GSL finals, won multiple premiers including internationals and Super Tournaments and Zoun was sticking up decent results especially in ST. Creator made a GSL final too Stats was there but he wasn’t really the force he was. Now literally all of those players are gone, and the military rotation has herO, Classic and Stats back into rotation. herO hit the ground running and if anything has dropped off again, Classic is only now hitting his stride and Stats hasn’t quite got back there yet. Having ballpark half your best roster unavailable over the last 2/3 years really doesn’t help either. Balance wise PvT currently being tough is a big issue too currently in a region with a lot of top Ts. Someone pointed out an interesting stat, you have to go as far down as Trigger to find a player with PvT as their best matchup currently according to Aligulac. Whereas while being rounded, Trap’s PvT was a cut above his other matchups. Players have different strengths and abilities in different matchups, if there’s one stat that indicates PvT isn’t in a good state it’s that not a single Protoss of consequence has it as their best matchup. A top level PvT specialist/sniper just outright doesn’t exist right now. Terran’s current number 1 and 2 in Maru and Cure have their best matchups as TvZ and TvP on the contrast. Like the smallest size possible sample you can take and you get that matchup specialisation diverging immediately. Zergs in Korea are going to be hit with that hammer soon btw given Rogue’s already gone and Dark was the other one really carrying the race. Solar’s great form and Rag being a good player notwithstanding Hopefully Rogue returns when Dark leaves. If Rogue retires, Zerg in Korea is fucked. And so that is going to beg the debate. Do we buff Zerg because it can't win GSL if Dark and Rogue are gone? You absolutely know people are going to try and argue that. Do we nerf Terran because of GSL results when it's obvious that there are just better Terrans in GSL than the other two races? This is the fragility of balancing around only the top results and only in the top tournaments.
Not really comparable since 2 of the most succesful Protoss players of all time are active right now, but can't win
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Man nothing makes me convinced that SC2 Protoss is badly designed than watching Brood War Protoss play. It's just... better. There's no other way to describe it.
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On August 06 2023 22:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
Man nothing makes me convinced that SC2 Protoss is badly designed than watching Brood War Protoss play. It's just... better. There's no other way to describe it.
It's just as terrible in PvZ though 
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On August 06 2023 22:28 Vindicare605 wrote:
Man nothing makes me convinced that SC2 Protoss is badly designed than watching Brood War Protoss play. It's just... better. There's no other way to describe it.
Protoss doesn't win anything in bw either 
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France12907 Posts
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping.
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On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping.
How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses
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On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses
it makes a difference at high level and certain matchups. For GuMiHo mech .. probably less compared to Clems precise style.
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France12907 Posts
On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses
80 ping is pretty noticeable when playing. It’s kinda dumb for a tournament with 400k $ prizepool to be played with ping when you have to fly the players in etc, but it’s mostly Blizzard fault for not implementing LAN
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On August 06 2023 22:34 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses it makes a difference at high level and certain matchups. For GuMiHo mech .. probably less compared to Clems precise style.
Ofc it makes a difference, as it is different. But how significant is it really? You cannot convince me, ever, that 80 ping makes clem lose his games
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France12907 Posts
On August 06 2023 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:34 TaKeTV wrote:On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses it makes a difference at high level and certain matchups. For GuMiHo mech .. probably less compared to Clems precise style. Ofc it makes a difference, as it is different. But how significant is it really? You cannot convince me, ever, that 80 ping makes clem lose his games
It’s not just about Clem, it was pretty clear this tournament that a lot of « micro mistakes » were just ping issues.
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On August 06 2023 22:37 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:34 TaKeTV wrote:On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses it makes a difference at high level and certain matchups. For GuMiHo mech .. probably less compared to Clems precise style. Ofc it makes a difference, as it is different. But how significant is it really? You cannot convince me, ever, that 80 ping makes clem lose his games It’s not just about Clem, it was pretty clear this tournament that a lot of « micro mistakes » were just ping issues.
People mismicro all the time in all games they play. Maybe i am wrong, and i am not saying there is no difference, but yeah i 100% question how significant this is. Which isn't to say that it wouldn't be better to not have that ping for this tournament, ofc. And if only so people wouldn't focus on it :D
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Hope these tvzs will be a little more interesting than the games so far. JD's ZvT is high worst matchup though, but fantasy just came back? Probably gonna be messy games.
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Canada8989 Posts
On August 06 2023 22:37 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:34 TaKeTV wrote:On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses it makes a difference at high level and certain matchups. For GuMiHo mech .. probably less compared to Clems precise style. Ofc it makes a difference, as it is different. But how significant is it really? You cannot convince me, ever, that 80 ping makes clem lose his games It’s not just about Clem, it was pretty clear this tournament that a lot of « micro mistakes » were just ping issues.
I'm almost certain we would have ever come to the conclusion that there was ping if we didn't know it.
Or at least, I would not have suspected it, maybe some who understand the game better than me can, but I doubt it.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 06 2023 22:59 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 22:37 Poopi wrote:On August 06 2023 22:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:34 TaKeTV wrote:On August 06 2023 22:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 06 2023 22:31 Poopi wrote:
Rooting for JaeDong to take it all!
Afterwards, hopefully Clem is gonna find a way to beat Reynor with ping. How bad is this 'ping'? People keep mentioning it. 80ish? Then srsly, stop pretending it makes that much of a difference. I get whining about it when it's 150+, but at a certain point it's just excuses it makes a difference at high level and certain matchups. For GuMiHo mech .. probably less compared to Clems precise style. Ofc it makes a difference, as it is different. But how significant is it really? You cannot convince me, ever, that 80 ping makes clem lose his games It’s not just about Clem, it was pretty clear this tournament that a lot of « micro mistakes » were just ping issues. I'm almost certain we would have ever come to the conclusion that there was ping if we didn't know it. Or at least, I would not have suspected it, maybe some who understand the game better than me can, but I doubt it.
I’ve definitely noticed quite a lot of uncharacteristic micro mistakes. Medivacs picking up that little too late and people eating banes, that kind of things.
Across lots of different matches with different players.
If I didn’t know there was this ping I’d have put it down to the nerves of the huge stage. As I know about the ping it starts to seem more about the ping.
Everyone is equally inconvenienced technically, but it doesn’t affect all styles equally so there is that.
Like me/my brother will play some FIFA to do challenges my kiddo can’t quite manage and even at relatively low rank on his account it’s tough to pull off a win if we are pulling 70+ ping. Different type of game of course, with more impactful but fewer actions but it’s definitely way harder to time things
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Man I wish they’d use the cool shot with players + keyboard + monitor at times when things were actually going on so a viewer could get a sense of how insane what these folks are capable of
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EPT
