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On August 06 2023 15:34 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:15 Slydie wrote:On August 06 2023 14:50 buzz_bender wrote:
Both Maru and Serral losing in their mirror matchups... now I'm wondering how much ping would have affected their games, given that their razor thin edges in those matchups. Not much in this case. The games were mostly decided by the builds they chose. Props to Clem and Solar for studying their opponents. Which sucks even more. I feel that the only mirror that isn't coin-flippy and truly fun to watch is BW TvT.
Choosing your BO is a very important part of SC2. IMO, Serral and Maru failed to think from their opponent's perspective: if I were to counter my own normal playstyle, what would I do? Instead, they stayed with their bread and butter macro openings and got caught.
Deserved wins and losses imo.
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On August 06 2023 15:34 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:15 Slydie wrote:On August 06 2023 14:50 buzz_bender wrote:
Both Maru and Serral losing in their mirror matchups... now I'm wondering how much ping would have affected their games, given that their razor thin edges in those matchups. Not much in this case. The games were mostly decided by the builds they chose. Props to Clem and Solar for studying their opponents. Which sucks even more. I feel that the only mirror that isn't coin-flippy and truly fun to watch is BW TvT.
Serral has tendency of collapsing after he got “duped” in an early game. He can 3-0 the same Zerg but might drop 0-3 later. Dark, Rogue and Reynor has swept him in Bo5/7 before so this is somewhat un-suprising.
As for Maru, well shit, he played really bad in several TvT despite him dominating it just 12 months earlier. People blame it to the Raven nerf, but I dont see how it impacts the early game, possibly people can get out more and ealier Raven level the playing field? But him lacking awareness of his opponent movement and acting way careless/aggresive is an eyesore to see.
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On August 06 2023 15:56 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:34 RKC wrote:On August 06 2023 15:15 Slydie wrote:On August 06 2023 14:50 buzz_bender wrote:
Both Maru and Serral losing in their mirror matchups... now I'm wondering how much ping would have affected their games, given that their razor thin edges in those matchups. Not much in this case. The games were mostly decided by the builds they chose. Props to Clem and Solar for studying their opponents. Which sucks even more. I feel that the only mirror that isn't coin-flippy and truly fun to watch is BW TvT. Serral has tendency of collapsing after he got “duped” in an early game. He can 3-0 the same Zerg but might drop 0-3 later. Dark, Rogue and Reynor has swept him in Bo5/7 before so this is somewhat un-suprising. As for Maru, well shit, he played really bad in several TvT despite him dominating it just 12 months earlier. People blame it to the Raven nerf, but I dont see how it impacts the early game, possibly people can get out more and ealier Raven level the playing field? But him lacking awareness of his opponent movement and acting way careless/aggresive is an eyesore to see.
I'm blaming the Raven patch because it's thrown Maru off of his gameplan to the point now where he's "trying" stuff, he's way less consistent than he used to be in the match up and that's caused him to gamble a lot more on stuff that keeps backfiring on him.
But I can't say the Raven patch is entirely to blame for that since Maru has a tendency to do that anyway, he just hasn't in TvT for a very long time until recently.
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On August 06 2023 08:45 Pandain wrote:
Three world championship finals in a row is no joke
That is, if you don't count pre EPT IEM Katowice
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On August 06 2023 15:34 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:15 Slydie wrote:On August 06 2023 14:50 buzz_bender wrote:
Both Maru and Serral losing in their mirror matchups... now I'm wondering how much ping would have affected their games, given that their razor thin edges in those matchups. Not much in this case. The games were mostly decided by the builds they chose. Props to Clem and Solar for studying their opponents. Which sucks even more. I feel that the only mirror that isn't coin-flippy and truly fun to watch is BW TvT.
What? Maru didnt lose because of coinflippy TvT openings... what games have you watched?
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On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8.
They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance.
Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier.
Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups.
I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it.
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Most good toss are either retired or in the army or just came back.
On the topic, I have my money on Solar to take it all
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On August 06 2023 15:56 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:34 RKC wrote:On August 06 2023 15:15 Slydie wrote:On August 06 2023 14:50 buzz_bender wrote:
Both Maru and Serral losing in their mirror matchups... now I'm wondering how much ping would have affected their games, given that their razor thin edges in those matchups. Not much in this case. The games were mostly decided by the builds they chose. Props to Clem and Solar for studying their opponents. Which sucks even more. I feel that the only mirror that isn't coin-flippy and truly fun to watch is BW TvT. As for Maru, well shit, he played really bad in several TvT despite him dominating it just 12 months earlier. People blame it to the Raven nerf, but I dont see how it impacts the early game, possibly people can get out more and ealier Raven level the playing field? But him lacking awareness of his opponent movement and acting way careless/aggresive is an eyesore to see.
The raven nerf was huge in TvT openers. Has no one here actually has tried the units in game? Autoturrets are made of paper you can't just throw some down and win any fight now.
Triple raven openers previously could hold any 2 base push or prevent any kind of harass. You could even kill a doomdrop by throwing 7 or 8 auto turrets down. Maru was opening 3 raven 3 CC and still crushed Clem going for a double starport viking allin, that doesn't work anymore.
Some people liked the patch because it made TvT builds more open. But it was a direct nerf raven openers.
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Imho, Maru is a defensive genius an TvT so what I don't understand is why he plays aggressive openings and makes himself vulnerable. I reckon if he plays safe, he should just win TvTs most of the time.
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On August 06 2023 19:52 NotSoHappy wrote:
Most good toss are either retired or in the army or just came back.
On the topic, I have my money on Solar to take it all
It would be marvelous.
Hes been one of the best for years now. Deserves a lot
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The funny thing is:
The top 4 are the players who qualified in 5th-8th in swiss format.
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Let's go fantasy! Unlikely to win, but having a tvz in the finals would be cool
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On August 06 2023 20:39 Azzur wrote:
Imho, Maru is a defensive genius an TvT so what I don't understand is why he plays aggressive openings and makes himself vulnerable. I reckon if he plays safe, he should just win TvTs most of the time.
Exactly, I would love to see Maru playing more like Ryung or Cure, more safe, traditional and methodological opening, dont rush to early tech/econ, just build up slowly, its okay if hes 5-6 workers behind, he can catch up later with his late game setup. Instead, it seems like hes the one who trying to deal early damage most of the time while doing all the greedy build at the same time. So hes pretty dead if he doesnt get anything done, or worse get his unit killed for free.
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On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it.
I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern
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On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern
So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right?
Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him.
It was a bad draw.
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bo3? I was promised bo5 
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On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw.
Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse.
We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance?
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On August 06 2023 20:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 15:56 tigera6 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:34 RKC wrote:On August 06 2023 15:15 Slydie wrote:On August 06 2023 14:50 buzz_bender wrote:
Both Maru and Serral losing in their mirror matchups... now I'm wondering how much ping would have affected their games, given that their razor thin edges in those matchups. Not much in this case. The games were mostly decided by the builds they chose. Props to Clem and Solar for studying their opponents. Which sucks even more. I feel that the only mirror that isn't coin-flippy and truly fun to watch is BW TvT. As for Maru, well shit, he played really bad in several TvT despite him dominating it just 12 months earlier. People blame it to the Raven nerf, but I dont see how it impacts the early game, possibly people can get out more and ealier Raven level the playing field? But him lacking awareness of his opponent movement and acting way careless/aggresive is an eyesore to see. The raven nerf was huge in TvT openers. Has no one here actually has tried the units in game? Autoturrets are made of paper you can't just throw some down and win any fight now. Triple raven openers previously could hold any 2 base push or prevent any kind of harass. You could even kill a doomdrop by throwing 7 or 8 auto turrets down. Maru was opening 3 raven 3 CC and still crushed Clem going for a double starport viking allin, that doesn't work anymore. Some people liked the patch because it made TvT builds more open. But it was a direct nerf raven openers.
A change for the better IMO
It would be nice if TvT currently had a similar very reliably safe opener so one could reliably get into the fun mid/late game. The Raven openers did that but the raven was too suffocatingly good, too good against tanks and negating the fun positional game of chess, and too many games got decided by ‘who has more ravens?’
It basically gave Maru a free pass to the mid and late games where he was untouchable. Indeed he still is when he gets there. Indeed he still probably has the best TvT in the world, he’s just not invincible anymore. He’s just off beating Cure in GSL and Gamer’s 8 after all.
Just as Serral’s really not remotely weak in ZvZ, just not as invincible and bad days in the office do happen
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On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance?
I used to think the way that you do, but 10 years of constantly shifting metas and different balances have left us with a REMARKABLE gap in the top Protoss players from players of the other two races. Think about it. In all of the GOAT debates why is the closest Protoss player like a DISTANT 10th or 11th behind the Zergs or Terrans?
sOs is the most successful Protoss of all time in SC2 in terms of big wins and prize money and absolutely no one considers him one of the top players to play the game. Maybe the smartest but absolutely not the most skilled in the conventional sense.
Over a long enough timeframe and with enough data, the pattern that I see is that Protoss itself is not designed in a way that it produces top players. It could be that the way the race is designed draws lower skilled players to it, because they are able to rise up the ranks easier. It could be that the race has a lower ceiling in terms of what is possible to do with it at the top level and so Protoss players are capped at a ceiling below what top Zergs and Terrans are capable of. I think it's a combination of both.
I think Protoss design inherently makes it easier to win with if you are not as skilled as your opponent, and that same design holds it back when the skill level gets high enough. Is that unfair to the players? Absolutely. But that isn't a balance problem, that's a longstanding design problem. One that has created the very real gap in skill between the top players of the various races.
You can't fix that with small balance tweaks. If you did, you wouldn't have one player rise to the top of the pyramid to represent the race, you'd have a flood of Protoss dominance at every level. This is what happens every time Protoss gets buffed, we've seen it over and over again, because the race itself is fundamentally flawed.
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On August 06 2023 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2023 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 21:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 06 2023 20:58 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2023 19:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 06 2023 15:23 RKC wrote:
Seriously, at this rate, Protoss might as well be erased from SC2 or competitive play. Creator and herO almost won vs Serral (!) - which would mean herO would be in Ro8 and Creator would have a really good chance to get into Ro8. They lost in those games because of their pretty stupid mistakes and indecisivness, not because of the balance. Showtime could win vs Reynor if only he wasn't so indecisive and attack a minute or two earlier. Creator also lost from very good positions vs Byan, Spirit (and Serral) because of his own mistakes and slip ups. I'm not saying protoss are not underperforming, but this tournament IMO is not a good example of it. I hear this every tournament, if it happens every time that Protoss could have performed better if xy happened, but it didn't happen, maybe there's a pattern So if you play a player that's better than you on the ladder 100x and he beats you 90 times it can only be because his race is better than yours right? Classic isn't Cure dude. He put on a good show for himself but he hasn't been at Cure's level since he came back from the army. Cure is playing some of the best that he ever has, he has arguably the best TvP in the world right now. Classic would have had to upset him to beat him. It was a bad draw. Classic is with herO the best Protoss in the world. If he's the underdog against the 2nd best terran (and against the best Zergs), you're saying that Protoss players just happen to be worse. We've heard for years that Protoss players just suck and don't deserve to win. Have you ever considered that the perception that every Protoss sucks is based on results that are influenced by balance? I used to think the way that you do, but 10 years of constantly shifting metas and different balances have left us with a REMARKABLE gap in the top Protoss players from players of the other two races. Think about it. In all of the GOAT debates why is the closest Protoss player like a DISTANT 10th or 11th behind the Zergs or Terrans? sOs is the most successful Protoss of all time in SC2 in terms of big wins and absolutely no one considers him one of the top players to play the game. Maybe the smartest but absolutely not the most skilled in the conventional sense. Over a long enough timeframe and with enough data, the pattern that I see is that Protoss itself is not designed in a way that it produces top players. It could be that the way the race is designed draws lower skilled players to it, because they are able to rise up the ranks easier. It could be that the race has a lower ceiling in terms of what is possible to do with it at the top level and so Protoss players are capped at a ceiling below what top Zergs and Terrans are capable of. I think it's a combination of both. I think Protoss design inherently makes it easier to win with if you are not as skilled as your opponent, and that same design holds it back when the skill level gets high enough. Is that unfair to the players? Absolutely. But that isn't a balance problem, that's a longstanding design problem. One that has created the very real gap in skill between the top players of the various races.
I disagree with this because the Protoss underperformance only happened after a series of nerfs that got never reverted, so it doesn't seem to be a fundamental design issue. In HotS Protoss was probably the best performing race and had the highest amount of consistent top performers with Zest, Classic, Rain, PartinG, sOs, herO, Dear.
Even in 2016-2018 Stats was probably overall the best player.
Then the MSC got removed, Immortals and Warpprism got nerfed, charge got nerfed, and a few other things I think - and suddenly Protoss couldn't win shit anymore.
It's true that Protoss got hit hardest by players leaving for military, but still sOs, Stats, Zest, Classic, Trap and herO weren't that succesful anymore in their last year(s) before leaving, so I don't think them still being active (or without having a 2 year military break) would change that much
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EPT
