EPT
GSL Code S
Global StarCraft II League/2023/Season 2Streams & Casters
Format
- Played Online.
- Dual Tournament Format.
- All matches are Bo3.
- Top 2 players of each group advance to the Group Stage 2.
Map Pool
Group C
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/4729.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1173.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2838.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2106.jpg)
Results
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6T7Q38K.png)
CSS: FO-nTTaX
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Banner: GSL
[GSL 2023] Code S:Season 2 - Group C
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Map Pool CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
I'm kinda fine with any two players advancing here as I like them all. usually I would be cheering for both Special and Gumigod but with so many Terrans in there already I wouldn't mind sacrifing Huanito (sorry mate) for either Dark or Creator. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3505 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17720 Posts
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Elentos
55561 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7021 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On July 11 2023 18:52 Harris1st wrote: Not sure if Special beeing awesome or Dark beeing awful but that was a stomp bit of both i think | ||
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Elentos
55561 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17720 Posts
On July 11 2023 18:48 Die4Ever wrote: Dark pls Dark thnx that fungal and blinding cloud right at the end lol | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17720 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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tigera6
3444 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
On July 11 2023 19:55 tigera6 wrote: Why are those KR Protoss players still think that Carriers beat BC head-on? I know people said Blink Stalker isnt the answer, but I would rather my chance on that one. It doesn't seem that long ago, where BC's in the late game vs Protoss was kind of a secret at the pro level, you almost never saw it from the Korean pros. Seems like people have FINALLY started to realize how strong they are. Supernova's been using them heavily in KR GM for at least a few years. | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On July 11 2023 19:55 tigera6 wrote: Why are those KR Protoss players still think that Carriers beat BC head-on? I know people said Blink Stalker isnt the answer, but I would rather my chance on that one. Wasn't it Creator who a few years ago beat battle cruisers in late game by camping on a bunch of batteries and taking advantage of having recall on both his nexus and a mothership? To be fair, Creator probably didn't have the mineral bank to go for that. | ||
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Elentos
55561 Posts
On July 11 2023 20:00 dysenterymd wrote: Wasn't it Creator who a few years ago beat battle cruisers in late game by camping on a bunch of batteries and taking advantage of having recall on both his nexus and a mothership? To be fair, Creator probably didn't have the mineral bank to go for that. He just barely lost that game. And the backbone of his play was his tempest fleet, which he didn't manage to get to here. Oh yeah and just so we all feel old, that was 5 years ago. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17720 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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darklycid
3517 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17720 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Elentos
55561 Posts
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darklycid
3517 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
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darklycid
3517 Posts
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Elentos
55561 Posts
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darklycid
3517 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
Another one is to not blink all the stalkers in the clump of terran armies just for the purpose of killing tanks. Anyway kudos for gumigod. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2248 Posts
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tigera6
3444 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Felt like he could have cancelled the WP at 60% when he saw the attack coming too and rushed the immortal out... Sad Creator didn't advance, Protoss seems to be in a rough spot... those early Terran pushes are pretty easy to execute but it seems defending as Protoss takes so much work | ||
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Gescom
Canada3505 Posts
On July 11 2023 09:12 Gescom wrote: Special + Creator coming thru. Let's see it. Just like coach drew it up! | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
It feels like Protoss lacks options to be a threat and push in the early game and early-mid game, while Terran has powerful early-mid pushes and Zerg has powerful Ravager pushes, where they are low committment yet powerful. Protoss pushes can be quite strong, but are usually moderately or heavily committal, often considered all-in. Protoss having the option to skip Robo/WP and making Pylons a bit more reliable (15 secs might be enough rather than 20), would help them with their high costs in the early-mid game that usually result in them not having a lot of army to push with. I do remember it was changed so that Protoss units can be buffed to be stronger, without worrying about broken push timing / weaker defender's advantage. But now it seems like Protoss lacks options to push, so maybe either Protoss needs buffs in strength, or maybe the far away warp-ins can be rebuffed slightly? And if we prefer Protoss having fewer push options since they're supposed to be the more expensive/tech heavy race, what about partially reverting overcharge or giving them more help to defend those Terran/Zerg pushes? Maybe batteries can have have slightly more HP or heal slightly more to make up for the weaker overcharge. I think buffing batteries is a relatively safe and fair way to re-buff defense without worrying about gameplay feeling as no-fun as the old overcharge. It can reward Protoss players poking and being active with their units before the main engagement, to try to make full use of the energy. Another possibility is slightly buffing battery energy regeneration so that it encourages players to be more active than to try to bank up a lot of energy. I know it's a complicated thing but i really wish to see Protoss in a better and more well-rounded state. It does feel like their armies are often weak, especially for composition switching to be less fluid than Terran/Zerg, and Protoss compositions sometimes need such specific compositions to deal with Terran/Zerg options. You have to work your Stalkers and other units so hard to get their value. I wonder if Stalkers' damage can be altered slightly from 13 (+5 armored) to 14 (+4 armored) so that they do slightly better vs Zerglings, Ravagers, Queens, Mutalisks, and MMM? (I think Hellions can be buffed similarly from 8 (+6 Light) to 9 (+5 Light) so that Hellion vs Stalker still remains about the same, and to buff early-mid Hellion comps and Mech in general, now that AA missile is weaker). I also don't think it looks right to see Zerg able to have mass Lurkers beeline into your base so quickly and easily even if they do have the advantage. It's not fun watching games snowball so fast to an ending. I wonder if Lurkers really need to move that fast, and if we can rework them slightly so that mass Lurkers scale less cost efficiently. Perhaps their unit size can be increased slightly for example, so that 16 Lurkers take up the space that 20 Lurkers currently do, thus effecting their damage density. Or maybe Lurker HP can just be reduced slightly since their DPS is already so high. (I think we can increase Disruptor unit collission too so that mass Disruptor is also a bit less efficient, and we see Disruptors split up more around the map to hold positions) | ||
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Gescom
Canada3505 Posts
KR is dominated by Terrans, EU by Zerg, and NA by Protoss. Perhaps that is "balance". Heh. If we're going to make changes at this point they need to be hyper subtle. Things like 5-10% reductions in medivac boost speed or widow mine burrow speed or yes, lurker/swarm host movement speed. | ||
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tigera6
3444 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On July 12 2023 12:48 Gescom wrote: ^ Citing Protoss balance concerns after watching Creator throw games doing Creator things is bizarre. They're not gonna change fundamentals like Stalker damage when Ladder, all the way up to High GM, is completely healthy for Protoss. It's the small sample size of GSL players and maybe the map pool. We had 5P 3Z in the GSL RO16.. no one is gonna say Zerg is in a bad place balance-wise. Conversely, the HomeStory Cup RO8 was 5Z, 2P, 1T, with the bad bracket luck to have a protoss mirror. KR is dominated by Terrans, EU by Zerg, and NA by Protoss. Perhaps that is "balance". Heh. If we're going to make changes at this point they need to be hyper subtle. Things like 5-10% reductions in medivac boost speed or widow mine burrow speed or yes, lurker/swarm host movement speed. Thanks for bringing up the stats, it doesn't look as dire as maybe how it feels, though I do feel like Protoss is still weak at the top level and that they got the short end of the stick last patch, making them even weaker. I'm very curious about the Stalker damage, as it would be significant but still a relatively small change in terms of keeping unit dynamics and strategies mainly the same. I just wonder why no one seems to bring that up when it comes to suggestions on how to buff Gateway army strength. It seems the last patch strived to help Gateway strength by making Forge upgrades slightly faster and buffing Sentries slightly. But these all feel like tiny things that don't truly make Gateway armies more resilient in a meaningful way that helps Protoss with its flexibility issues and punishing nature to play. (For +1 for example you get like 10 more seconds to fight with +1 damage/armor but they're not actually stronger, and maybe a few more zealots will now be covered by Guardian Shield easier, and maybe Sentry pushes are slightly more worth it by getting 1 more Sentry faster before WarpGate research, but that's kinda it). I don't think what Protoss got compensated for Overcharge being weaker and Interference Matrix being even stronger and faster now (with cheaper and quicker to build Ravens). I also feel that people would agree that Protoss struggles against Mutalisks, and that they're quite punishing and have a high game-ending potential when compared to other things in SC2. Mutalisks need very specific responses and good control by Protoss to fend off, and that's simply to fend them off - once fended off with specific counters it's not like Zerg suddenly goes into a significant disadvantage, or didn't get any damage to be worth it. Mutalisks feel relatively low risk but with very high potential in ZvP. I think people would agree Stalkers are a bit weak compared to Mutalisks, forcing Protoss to often need to resort to double Phoenix production which are specifically good against Mutalisks and aren't as useful later. It also feels like Ling/Roach/Ravager is stronger than it should be at defending Gateway pushes (sometimes with Immortals). Ravagers just have so much staying power and you can easily remake them, while Gateway pushes quickly lose all the tech it needs to keep going (Sentry energy, Immortals). I feel even reverting Spores to root/uproot a few seconds slower would help Protoss pushes so that Zerg can't chase down the WP with the Spore as easily. I think Stalkers having 1 more damage vs Mutalisks, Ravagers, Queens, Zerglings etc. could be an effective way to subtly buff Gateway strength without changing the way the game is played much. So often you see a low committment Ravager push (often times from a Zerg who is behind and launching a last ditch attack) or some Queen push or Queen overlord drop play do massive damage to Protoss if they don't have the right army composition and in exactly the right place at the right times. I do feel it's very punishing as Protoss in general and a slight buff to a core unit like the Stalker could be the kind of overall buff that'd make Protoss more solid/flexible overall. It would also help Protoss fend off Terran pushes in the early-mid game by doing a little more damage vs Marines, and relying slightly less on needing splash ASAP. I think this, or something needs to be done to compensate for the Overcharge nerf and Interference Matrix being cheaper/easier to get. Maybe it'd be a lot stronger than I think, or maybe it'd mess with PvP vs Zealots/Archons/Phoenix or something, but it doesn't seem like it'd hurt much and I'm very curious why no one talks about buffing damage vs non-Armored specifically (usually people mention buffing Stalker overall damage or reworking its attack speed/damage so upgrades give +2 instead of +1 etc.). I've also been thinking about something else lately... maybe it's part of race identity but if a Protoss was behind, and they tried a last ditch all-in, it never seems to be very scary at all, yet last ditch Ravager pushes from Zerg somehow are. Last-ditch all-ins from Terran can be scary too with SCV pulls. It doesn't feel like Protoss has that equivalent in last-ditch all-ins. They used to, with the old 4gate, 6gate, 8gate all-ins on less bases focusing on pure army, but those aren't a thing anymore. Maybe I'm wrong on that but i just don't recall seeing any last ditch Protoss pushes that did anything. The only one I remember is Creator doing a super super delayed 2 base all-in where he just like maxed out vs a 4 base Zerg and somehow Zerg didn't prepare enough despite knowing Protoss was on 2 base for so long. On July 12 2023 13:12 tigera6 wrote: My simple suggestion would be make the Robo unit cheaper, they are the backbone of Protoss army in most PvT fight so having them earlier and more would solve part of the problem. Either way, I do agree that Protoss just missing their top players at the moment. If you stack up all the top player in each race, the talent level is lopsided to Terran and Zerg, Serral/Reynor/Dark/Solar and Maru/Cure/Clem/Byun are definitely better than herO/MaxPax/Classic and whoever else you want to throw in between Creator-Showtime-Astrea. That's true too, i guess it brings up the discussion between whether we can know if it's because the players aren't as skilled, or if it's because the race has always been weaker at the top top level that we don't see as skilled players playing Protoss. For example, we've seen sOs was a top top Protoss player in his prime years, but it seemed that once people figured the game out a bit more, those surprise strategies weren't effective enough anymore, and Protoss was weak when trying to play a "straight up" game. So would we consider him falling off as just not being as good as other players anymore, or is it the race is not as strong now that people figured out how to defend things better? (Obviously not counting his last year or so before he retired, where he was probably just chilling out and not tryharding anymore). Same with Protoss players who were at the top in their prime, like Dear, Zest, etc. These players all seemed to fall off and weren't able to maintain the way top Terran or top Zerg players do. Zest did stay relevant for years, by managing to to win some stuff again before going to the military, but it just seems like top Protoss struggle so much more with consistency than players like Maru/Innovation/Rogue/Dark, and i have to wonder if it's really just the players or just the race. I know you can't compare things 1:1 like this, but doing these early Marine/Tank pushes vs TvP are easy to execute and control compared to the high precision control and split-second decisions you have to make as Protoss to fend them off. Maybe it's just because I'm a Terran player so it feels easy to me and hard cus I don't play Protoss, but I don't think I could manage to control Blink stalkers and making game-ending calls on when to blink in and snipe tanks, having to split their fire to not overkill Tanks, to use a WP to fly near but not over the Marines so that you can pick up hurt stalkers while you're micro'ing the stalkers, juggling the stalkers in and out, etc. At the same time I know it's tricky though because if you do buff things like Stalker damage, if you have a really good player with perfect micro, things could get overpowered too with the very high micro ceiling. Sorry i am probably discussing in the wrong place and i don't mean to balance whine, I just really like to think of these things, maybe Protoss is actually fine because there's also lots of things they can do that Terran/Zerg can't | ||
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