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On July 04 2023 22:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 22:02 tigera6 wrote:
Literally what kill most of BCs were Stalkers, and Classic still try to max out on Carriers/Tempest. Thing is, the map doesn't have a lot of open space for Stalkers to run circles around BCs like sOs did vs TY in TY's last GSL game before the military. With just 3-4 tanks in 1 area, mass Stalker loses its potency vs mass BCs and then you're stuck with a ton of Stalkers that melt and have no way to trade them off efficiently if terran goes up to 7-8 tanks. And it was very easy to cover both sides of the map with just a couple WMs due to the narrow routes. There are a couple tactics that would really help Protoss in these kinds of army comps, and I would be curious to see someone finally do them: 1) Stack up your Tempest/Carriers/Voids, so that the BC player can't easily click 2 Yamato per Protoss ship. If it's stacked up very well, it's likely that many Yamatos will be wasted on the same unit. 2) Pre-spread your Tempests/Carriers more, so that even if they try to Warp ontop to force a fight or to try to cut off your retreat path, they end up being surrounded and it's also harder to spam Yamato quickly if the units are all spread out. With Tempest range, not all BCs would be in range to Yamato immediately either. Getting your Yamato's off 1-2 seconds sooner makes a huge difference in a max'd out air fight and can make the difference between winning or losing the fight with 10 BCs leftover or 10 Tempest/Carriers left over. Also, considering how narrow the routes on this map were, you could easily have 1 outpost on each side and spam Batteries/Canons there. Classic had a huge 5-9k bank and I'm surprised he didn't build 10 Batteries to give his Tempest/Carriers a lot more sustain.
To add to what you say, TY went up to some crazy tank count and vikings before finally starting the BC switch, so I think that he was anticipating the Parting (?) style with 80 workers, 5 base, just 3-4 gas mass stalker charge. But then Classic dropped a beacon, and TY dropped like 2-3 scans just to confirm continued carrier production, and still went up to a huge viking core before starting BCs. So the BCs were really a very late tech switch, and probably not that easy to exploit. And even if Classic switches fully back into Stalkers, all TY has to do is to slow the game down way more, add a bunch more tank mine turret, keep scanning the stargates to track another stargate switch, and he should eventually out trade the ground (including BC runbys). I think TY only started to take damage to the zealot stalker because he saw continued stargate production, so he knew that he could still trade efficiently even without resuming tank production (which was true; he was getting ahead on resources lost during that phase of the game)
I remember the sOs game starting with a banshee opening that did a lot of damage, so TY skipped (I think?) the tank core, which is why sOs pulled off the blink play, and why people are left with the impression that "stalkers kill TY's BC play." I suspect TY really shopped his build this game a bit more than we think.
I do think the cannon battery stuff could be more reliable, but I'm not sure if it actually works? Curious what any pros who have tried it think. In theory, I can see it either working well (cannons dissuade TP, batteries give tempests more time to chip), but also maybe it just dies to tanks plus scan (you can reallocate tanks if you see the P not building a lot of gateway units) as well as the burst from yamato, so I'm not sure what it looks like at the highest levels. TY's won quite a few BC vs tempest games historically, so maybe he would know what to do against this as well.
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On July 05 2023 10:26 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 22:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 04 2023 22:02 tigera6 wrote:
Literally what kill most of BCs were Stalkers, and Classic still try to max out on Carriers/Tempest. Thing is, the map doesn't have a lot of open space for Stalkers to run circles around BCs like sOs did vs TY in TY's last GSL game before the military. With just 3-4 tanks in 1 area, mass Stalker loses its potency vs mass BCs and then you're stuck with a ton of Stalkers that melt and have no way to trade them off efficiently if terran goes up to 7-8 tanks. And it was very easy to cover both sides of the map with just a couple WMs due to the narrow routes. There are a couple tactics that would really help Protoss in these kinds of army comps, and I would be curious to see someone finally do them: 1) Stack up your Tempest/Carriers/Voids, so that the BC player can't easily click 2 Yamato per Protoss ship. If it's stacked up very well, it's likely that many Yamatos will be wasted on the same unit. 2) Pre-spread your Tempests/Carriers more, so that even if they try to Warp ontop to force a fight or to try to cut off your retreat path, they end up being surrounded and it's also harder to spam Yamato quickly if the units are all spread out. With Tempest range, not all BCs would be in range to Yamato immediately either. Getting your Yamato's off 1-2 seconds sooner makes a huge difference in a max'd out air fight and can make the difference between winning or losing the fight with 10 BCs leftover or 10 Tempest/Carriers left over. Also, considering how narrow the routes on this map were, you could easily have 1 outpost on each side and spam Batteries/Canons there. Classic had a huge 5-9k bank and I'm surprised he didn't build 10 Batteries to give his Tempest/Carriers a lot more sustain. To add to what you say, TY went up to some crazy tank count and vikings before finally starting the BC switch, so I think that he was anticipating the Parting (?) style with 80 workers, 5 base, just 3-4 gas mass stalker charge. But then Classic dropped a beacon, and TY dropped like 2-3 scans just to confirm continued carrier production, and still went up to a huge viking core before starting BCs. So the BCs were really a very late tech switch, and probably not that easy to exploit. And even if Classic switches fully back into Stalkers, all TY has to do is to slow the game down way more, add a bunch more tank mine turret, keep scanning the stargates to track another stargate switch, and he should eventually out trade the ground (including BC runbys). I think TY only started to take damage to the zealot stalker because he saw continued stargate production, so he knew that he could still trade efficiently even without resuming tank production (which was true; he was getting ahead on resources lost during that phase of the game) I remember the sOs game starting with a banshee opening that did a lot of damage, so TY skipped (I think?) the tank core, which is why sOs pulled off the blink play, and why people are left with the impression that "stalkers kill TY's BC play." I suspect TY really shopped his build this game a bit more than we think. I do think the cannon battery stuff could be more reliable, but I'm not sure if it actually works? Curious what any pros who have tried it think. In theory, I can see it either working well (cannons dissuade TP, batteries give tempests more time to chip), but also maybe it just dies to tanks plus scan (you can reallocate tanks if you see the P not building a lot of gateway units) as well as the burst from yamato, so I'm not sure what it looks like at the highest levels. TY's won quite a few BC vs tempest games historically, so maybe he would know what to do against this as well.
I agree that mass Stalkers aren't reliable against skyterran but in that speicific situation where Classic lost his entire air fleet , I would have preferred him to switch to a different approach instead of rebuilding the same army TY already had the perfect counter for.
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lazy OP didn't update the results.
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Don't forget the mines - about 5 of them, I think? - which killed or damaged dozens of units over 5+ minutes, especially zealots but also stalkers and even air units, and which Classic never cleared.
Probably he was too stressed with everything else either notice or spend any effort on clearing them to traverse this area safely.
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On July 05 2023 01:27 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 22:30 Elentos wrote:On July 04 2023 22:29 Waxangel wrote:On July 04 2023 22:26 Elentos wrote:On July 04 2023 22:23 Waxangel wrote:
TY being 5800 MMR but his GSL buff getting him to the RO8 is wild. Although, I think he was 'only' like 6500 when he won the double GSL's back in 2020? On his main account yeah, but higher on his barcodes back then. The only time he cracked the "magic" 7000 even on barcode was around the time he won WESG. But he was 6340 the day before the qualifiers. He tanked a lot of MMR in those 2 weeks. Makes sense tbh, Korean ladder is dead as hell. The few times TY streamed this year, most of his games were against people below 5800. You lose one of those games you have to win 4 to get it back. pfft a progamer would never lie or misconstrue the truth  Definitely he's just the most skilled 5800 MMR player in history. 6k and 7k players are overrated. At lower MMR you have a ton of no-skill newb that do stupid low-winrate strategies and keep legit players MMR low. Once you hit 6k, you face real players so you naturaly scale more easilly. It's like me, I'm diamond 2 but comparing my winning replay to pro games, I reckon I would win one or two maps in a bo7 against someone like Classic or Elazer (they have more APM because they have more time to practice but I could balance it out with my superior game knowledge since I watched a bunch of Harstem video). Winning the bo7 would be hard though since they force you to pay on imba maps I veto on the ladder. But more seriously, can't believe TY got out, he's much better than I thought.
9/10 shitpost, I LOLed!
But seriously, what you talk about is also why GSL is so hard. Not only are insane cheeses very common and can strike at any time, but they are tailored and practiced to hit when YOU are weakest as a player.
Generic "ladder" play often fails in tournaments, just ask Clem...
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
Man TY got back into shape quick, good to see although shame Bunny couldn’t build on some of his recent momentum
Classic took some disastrous engages against Maru especially, another day perhaps he emerges.
Is anyone actually reliably good at PvT (at this level) these days? Feels like a rough patch last few months +
Super brittle, relying on trickery and risky business more and more.
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On July 08 2023 07:31 WombaT wrote:
Man TY got back into shape quick, good to see although shame Bunny couldn’t build on some of his recent momentum
Classic took some disastrous engages against Maru especially, another day perhaps he emerges.
Is anyone actually reliably good at PvT (at this level) these days? Feels like a rough patch last few months +
Super brittle, relying on trickery and risky business more and more.
Trigger is the highest rated Toss on aligulac with PvT as their best matchup (technically sOs is, but he's so inactive I don't think that counts.) Not that we should take aligulac too seriously, but it does underline a broader point.
That being said, I don't want to take away from TY too much, since I feel early to mid game is where Toss really struggles and TY beat him in the ultra late game.
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Is nerfing concussive very slightly a viable way to buff PvT in the early and mid game?
Idk if it would really affect TvZ much, whereas concussive is a big part of why early to mid game MMM balls dominate gateway armies. If its slow was slightly weaker, maybe Protoss would lose a couple less zealots each time they try to dis-engage from a fight.
Alternatively they can buff battery overcharge back slightly. They could make it last 1-2 seconds longer, or maybe overcharge gives that battery an extra 150 shields so that it isn't sniped as easily.
Another thing they can fix is the overcharge AI. When a building is being attacked, even if there is no Protoss unit in range that needs healing, the overcharge will not heal the building unless you manually click.
Another AI thing they can fix is that when there's 2 batteries in range of a unit that needs to be healed, let the overcharged battery take priority and heal it. Sometimes the non-overcharge battery will start healing a unit when there is an overcharge battery there, and it ends up doing nothing. The overcharge gets wasted and you waste the energy on the other battery.
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On July 09 2023 05:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Is nerfing concussive very slightly a viable way to buff PvT in the early and mid game?
Idk if it would really affect TvZ much, whereas concussive is a big part of why early to mid game MMM balls dominate gateway armies. If its slow was slightly weaker, maybe Protoss would lose a couple less zealots each time they try to dis-engage from a fight.
Alternatively they can buff battery overcharge back slightly. They could make it last 1-2 seconds longer, or maybe overcharge gives that battery an extra 150 shields so that it isn't sniped as easily.
Another thing they can fix is the overcharge AI. When a building is being attacked, even if there is no Protoss unit in range that needs healing, the overcharge will not heal the building unless you manually click.
Another AI thing they can fix is that when there's 2 batteries in range of a unit that needs to be healed, let the overcharged battery take priority and heal it. Sometimes the non-overcharge battery will start healing a unit when there is an overcharge battery there, and it ends up doing nothing. The overcharge gets wasted and you waste the energy on the other battery.
It’s not really a huge factor in vT/Z I could see that be worthy of looking at.
And yeah some of those proposed overcharge tweaks, sound pretty reasonable to me if that is the behaviour.
It’s a difficult juggling act, for me at the top top level Protoss feels incredibly brittle in that period where they’ve got that third just up and running and are getting their AoE tech going. I see so many games where they just outright die to a big push or get crippled by multipronged moves.
However even with my Protoss hat on there were times in the past where Protoss could negotiate that period really safely into the high tech/ups/multiple AoE sources and usually being a base up phase.
Which you really don’t want either, obviously.
But for my money you have to go back to that period of Trap’s late prime where there was a stone cold PvT killer. Whether he was just a consistent outlier or the balance was slightly more favourable I don’t know
As someone pointed out the other day Trigger is the highest rated player on Aligulac with PvT as their best matchup, excluding $o$ who’s obviously not around the minute. That seems a bit odd if the game is roughly balanced that there isn’t anyone closer the top with PvT being their strongest
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On July 09 2023 07:31 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2023 05:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Is nerfing concussive very slightly a viable way to buff PvT in the early and mid game?
Idk if it would really affect TvZ much, whereas concussive is a big part of why early to mid game MMM balls dominate gateway armies. If its slow was slightly weaker, maybe Protoss would lose a couple less zealots each time they try to dis-engage from a fight.
Alternatively they can buff battery overcharge back slightly. They could make it last 1-2 seconds longer, or maybe overcharge gives that battery an extra 150 shields so that it isn't sniped as easily.
Another thing they can fix is the overcharge AI. When a building is being attacked, even if there is no Protoss unit in range that needs healing, the overcharge will not heal the building unless you manually click.
Another AI thing they can fix is that when there's 2 batteries in range of a unit that needs to be healed, let the overcharged battery take priority and heal it. Sometimes the non-overcharge battery will start healing a unit when there is an overcharge battery there, and it ends up doing nothing. The overcharge gets wasted and you waste the energy on the other battery. It’s not really a huge factor in vT/Z I could see that be worthy of looking at. And yeah some of those proposed overcharge tweaks, sound pretty reasonable to me if that is the behaviour. It’s a difficult juggling act, for me at the top top level Protoss feels incredibly brittle in that period where they’ve got that third just up and running and are getting their AoE tech going. I see so many games where they just outright die to a big push or get crippled by multipronged moves. However even with my Protoss hat on there were times in the past where Protoss could negotiate that period really safely into the high tech/ups/multiple AoE sources and usually being a base up phase. Which you really don’t want either, obviously. But for my money you have to go back to that period of Trap’s late prime where there was a stone cold PvT killer. Whether he was just a consistent outlier or the balance was slightly more favourable I don’t know As someone pointed out the other day Trigger is the highest rated player on Aligulac with PvT as their best matchup, excluding $o$ who’s obviously not around the minute. That seems a bit odd if the game is roughly balanced that there isn’t anyone closer the top with PvT being their strongest
Mm that's true, i feel that as well with that sensitive period between holding a 3rd and getting powerful AOE+eco out.
Also true Trigger is an interesting data point, I guess it would suggest that GSL players might just have weak PvT.
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Great games. Had a tonne of fun watching the games with my sister-in-law. You know an eSports title is the GOAT when it can ingratiate you with the in-laws.
Congrats to the game makers and the competitors... Just a great night of gaming.
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EPT
