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On February 11 2023 07:19 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote:
Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw. Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
Hmmm, herO is doing pretty well in tournaments, what do we need to do? Nerf disruptors and super battery. Toss winrates pretty bad so far. And herO makes up a bunch of the PvZ wins
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On February 11 2023 06:57 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 06:51 Zaros wrote:
Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4. Just because the units that were changed weren't used doesn't mean the changes didn't have an effect. The disruptor nerf + Hydra buff are very likely the reason herO feels forced into colossi play.
this is what I'm thinking too, cause the colossus stuff just doesn't look stable enough to be your main play style
and of course the nerf to battery overcharge
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On February 11 2023 07:23 {Frozen} wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:19 QOGQOG wrote:On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote:
Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw. Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die. Hmmm, herO is doing pretty well in tournaments, what do we need to do? Nerf disruptors and super battery. Toss winrates pretty bad so far. And herO makes up a bunch of the PvZ wins
Yeah, it's really frustrating. When Zerg wins doing the same thing over and over again the stuff that's getting used less often gets buffed. And then some stuff that was part of that same thing gets buffed too. Meanwhile if Protoss finds something that works it gets nerfed hard with no real compensation.
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On February 11 2023 07:15 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:11 Acrofales wrote:On February 11 2023 07:07 Zzzapper wrote:
If I'm calculating correctly, Serral is guaranteed to advance if he wins, even with a 2-1: if Special loses, he has worse map score than Serral, if he wins 2-0, herO has worse map score and if Solar wins 2-0, Special 2-1, there's a 3-way tie between herO, Serral and Solar both on matches and map score. They're all 1-1 against each other but Serral has the better internal map score (3-2 vs. herO 2-2, Solar 2-3).
On the other hand, there still is a scenario where Serral loses 0-2, DRG wins 1-2 and Serral ends up in last place. In fact, the only way Serral loses and still advances is if he goes 1-2 and DRG wins 2-1
It's also possible that herO drops out if he loses 0-2, Serral wins and solar wins 2-0, the group is still completely open If Special wins 2-1 and Serral wins 2-1, then herO has a better map score. Solar winning 2-0 would then boot Serral out, right? They'd be tied on mapscore with Solar winning the h2h. Serral, herO and Solar would all have 7-5 map scores. So it goes to matches between them which are also tied, and finally to h2h map score which Serral wins on
Ahhh, yeah. You're right. I thought herO would still be 1 map ahead, but of course he'd lose 1, and be at +2, same as Serral and Solar.
Honestly, I just feel bad for Special. If Serral had "done his job" and won his ZvZs, losing to herO and Serral and winning against the rest would've been enough to make it out in 3rd place, but Serral choking puts him in a spot where he almost has to beat herO, in a matchup he probably hasn't prepared much, because he reckoned clutching it against the other 3 zergs would be enough to send him through. Now Special losing puts him at 3-2 with a mediocre mapscore. Solar and Serral winning sends him home then, which would be really sad after the low-key stellar performance he has shown in this group.
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Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
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On February 11 2023 07:19 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote:
Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw. Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
I just hate that banes are viable in PvZ, so disgusting lol
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I looked a bit more at the scenarios for group D:
Elazer is out no matter what but he can still get as high as fourth place if he 2-0's Serral.
DRG only advances if he goes 2-0 and Serral loses.
Special gets first place if he wins tomorrow. If he loses, he still advances unless both Solar and Serral win (with any map scores).
Solar most likely advances if he wins. The only way he doesn't do so is if he goes 2-1, with Special winning 2-1 and Serral winning. If he loses, he only advances if he goes 1-2 and Serral loses 0-2.
Serral advances if he wins. Otherwise, he can lose 1-2 if DRG wins 2-1.
HerO advances unless he goes 0-2, Solar 2-0, Serral wins. Fortunately, it is all but certain that we do get 2 protoss in the Ro12. Obviously, he is a huge favorite to advance in first place as well.
So overall, the odds of advancing are herO (almost guaranteed) >> Serral > Solar > Special >>> DRG
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Mexico2170 Posts
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote:
Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
Solar kept suiciding into widow mines. For what is worth I agree Solar is a better player than special (proving, yet again, my point that not always the better player wins), but special played decently well today and if solar decides to suicide, nothing you can do.
Regarding Serral vs Hero we say a Masterclass of Micro and mechanics by hero, and a+click and adbduct by serral, which obviously has great macro as well but showed lackuster play throughout the day and yesterday.
Hero did make a couple of mistakes, like finishing the shade, and maybe commiting to all in with colossus a little late (if just barely). However I still think the real issue with Prrotoss is that it's the most punishing race. 1 Bad engage means insta lose for protoss much more frequently than for the other races or things like the baneling runbys. Protoss might not be the most mechanically hard race but it's the most easy to lose with. And as long as it keeps relying on big expensive and slow production tech units (which get nerfed on top of that), this will continue to be true.
Serral did play well
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France12888 Posts
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote:
Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
SpeCial didn’t play like an inferior player though, Solar kept suiciding big chunks of units into widow mines, and it still took A LOT of those mistakes for it to allow SpeCial to win.
Still, I think herO got forced to go for the colossus due to the disruptor nerf + hydra buff? And the rush to vipers seems to counter this easily, weird patch timing
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On February 11 2023 07:57 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote:
Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol Solar kept suiciding into widow mines. For what is worth I agree Solar is a better player than special (proving, yet again, my point that not always the better player wins), but special played decently well today and if solar decides to suicide, nothing you can do. Regarding Serral vs Hero we say a Masterclass of Micro and mechanics by hero, and a+click and adbduct by serral, which obviously has great macro as well but showed lackuster play throughout the day and yesterday. Hero did make a couple of mistakes, like finishing the shade, and maybe commiting to all in with colossus a little late (if just barely). However I still think the real issue with Prrotoss is that it's the most punishing race. 1 Bad engage means insta lose for protoss much more frequently than for the other races or things like the baneling runbys. Protoss might not be the most mechanically hard race but it's the most easy to lose with. And as long as it keeps relying on big expensive and slow production tech units (which get nerfed on top of that), this will continue to be true. Serral did play well
Why bother writing that last line? Seriously--you obviously don't believe it. In game 1, if Hero simply doesn't let his 3rd base get canceled multiple times, he probably wins with that initial attack. In the second game, his push was too late by 15-20 seconds and scouted multiple times by Serral. Using that series to pretend like Hero played perfectly and reached the pinnacle of starcraft only to be slapped down by balance is a strange take for a well-played, but mostly vanilla series.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 11 2023 08:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote:
Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol SpeCial didn’t play like an inferior player though, Solar kept suiciding big chunks of units into widow mines, and it still took A LOT of those mistakes for it to allow SpeCial to win. Still, I think herO got forced to go for the colossus due to the disruptor nerf + hydra buff? And the rush to vipers seems to counter this easily, weird patch timing
yup, and now the protosses will adapt to the knowledge that zerg can quickly tech to hive and come up with a build that exploits cutting corners.
this is how metas develop but like you said, the patch timing sucks
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On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote:
Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Protoss was designed poorly from the beginning. Also no one likes banelings and yet removing them and reworking Zerg a little has always been out of the question, for some reason.
I guess once you start poking holes in SC2 design, you see just how many holes there are. It's a bit of a rabbit hole. The game's an absolute gas to watch but there really are quite a few core design flaws.
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On February 11 2023 08:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote:
Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol SpeCial didn’t play like an inferior player though, Solar kept suiciding big chunks of units into widow mines, and it still took A LOT of those mistakes for it to allow SpeCial to win. Still, I think herO got forced to go for the colossus due to the disruptor nerf + hydra buff? And the rush to vipers seems to counter this easily, weird patch timing
Wtf happened and why is everyone calling players inferior
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Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote:
Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
nah, seeding isn't set yet.
ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals.
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On February 11 2023 09:05 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote:
Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless. nah, seeding isn't set yet. ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals.
Will Maru really go 0-2 vs Lambo, though?
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Kind of crazy how close Group C still is. The only sure thing by the looks of things is that herO is sure to be safe. I don't see a scenario where he drops to 4th in the group. Elazer and DRG need super specific scores to advance with certain players losing. DRG has the tiebreaker over Serral.
Solar has the tie breaker over Serral but has one more loss than Serral does so he needs Serral to lose at least one game to Elazer while cleaning up DRG on his end.
Special needs to not get 2-0'd by herO to keep his spot in the playoffs.
Serral has it the simplest. If he 2-0's Elazer tomorrow he's safe. If he doesn't, there's a chance he drops out. So it's up to Elazer to defy the cabal and wreck the bracket.
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On February 11 2023 10:41 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 09:05 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote:
Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless. nah, seeding isn't set yet. ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals. Will Maru really go 0-2 vs Lambo, though?
Not likely, but he will probably play the most vanilla build possible to hide his TvZ and Lambo might just take advantage of that, say like a Roach all-in or something similar.
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On February 11 2023 10:46 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 10:41 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 11 2023 09:05 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote:
Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless. nah, seeding isn't set yet. ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals. Will Maru really go 0-2 vs Lambo, though? Not likely, but he will probably play the most vanilla build possible to hide his TvZ and Lambo might just take advantage of that, say like a Roach all-in or something similar.
A return of the shitty ravager build to shock the world with a 2-0 upset?
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On February 11 2023 07:19 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote:
Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw. Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
This is the life of toss against terran too
Make smaller weaker units. Get Stim a move by bio
Get distracted a moment. Lose a mineral line to widow mines
Make high tech units templet. Gets emp
Just give us toss the “my life for Aiur “ zealots. Not this garbage “we cannot hold” zealot
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EPT
