Four groups of six players played out in Round-Robin format.
All matches are Bo3. • First place in each group advances directly to the Quarterfinals. • Second and third place in each group advance to the Round of 12.
Ties are broken in the following order: • Overall map difference • Overall number of map wins • Match wins amassed between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Map difference between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Number of map wins between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Tie breaker matches • Coin toss
I can understand putting Spirit on the main stage since Polish crowd and all, but putting the 2-0 Gumiho vs the 2-0 Creator on the C stream seems wack.
On February 10 2023 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote: I can understand putting Spirit on the main stage since Polish crowd and all, but putting the 2-0 Gumiho vs the 2-0 Creator on the C stream seems wack.
Seems normal to me
IEM WC has always tried to balance giving everyone a main stage game, putting 'popular' players on stage, and making sure the main stage games have actual stakes (tho this is more for the final round of games).
There's def been times when I've been annoyed cause they favored the popular player too much at the expense of having someone play entirely backstage, but this particular choice seems pretty reasonable (might be last meaningful match for Polish player).
On February 10 2023 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote: I can understand putting Spirit on the main stage since Polish crowd and all, but putting the 2-0 Gumiho vs the 2-0 Creator on the C stream seems wack.
Seems normal to me
IEM WC has always tried to balance giving everyone a main stage game, putting 'popular' players on stage, and making sure the main stage games have actual stakes (tho this is more for the final round of games).
There's def been times when I've been annoyed cause they favored the popular player too much at the expense of having someone play entirely backstage, but this particular choice seems pretty reasonable (might be last meaningful match for Polish player).
IEM isn't the only guilty party. Remrmber sOs Blizzcon 2013?
On February 10 2023 21:05 Vindicare605 wrote: This clown fiesta of a TvP is holding up the entire tournament lol. The other two series both ended 2-1 by the time this last game started.
such a hater; u'd never say that if Maru decided to turtle and take a nap
On February 10 2023 21:05 Vindicare605 wrote: This clown fiesta of a TvP is holding up the entire tournament lol. The other two series both ended 2-1 by the time this last game started.
such a hater; u'd never say that if Maru decided to turtle and take a nap
Wax. Come on, look at this game and tell me it's not a clown fiesta.
So Astrea's defense of his probes in this tournament leaves a lot to be desired. The amount of probes he's lost to just not defending against Widow Mines, it's staggering. That one drop at his third/fourth where Astrea just decided to build a cannon after the 3 mines got one shot off and then didn't do anything else so the Mines fired again wiping out the entire mineral line twice.
Is it nerves? or is he this vulnerable to mine drops on ladder too?
It's going to come down to some weird tie breaker in this group. Reynor and Gumiho are separating from the pack. Creator needs to beat Reynor to stay ahead of the others.
If Spirit beats Showtime, but loses to Gumiho (seems like a reasonable outcome given their current performances), and Creator loses to Astrea and Reynor, is Spirit out because he lost to Creator? Or does he have a shot based on map scores?
On February 10 2023 21:37 Acrofales wrote: Is the tie breaker map score? Or h2h?
If Spirit beats Showtime, but loses to Gumiho (seems like a reasonable outcome given their current performances), and Creator loses to Astrea and Reynor, is Spirit out because he lost to Creator? Or does he have a shot based on map scores?
IIRC it goes by map score first before it goes H2H.
On February 10 2023 21:37 Acrofales wrote: Is the tie breaker map score? Or h2h?
If Spirit beats Showtime, but loses to Gumiho (seems like a reasonable outcome given their current performances), and Creator loses to Astrea and Reynor, is Spirit out because he lost to Creator? Or does he have a shot based on map scores?
On February 10 2023 21:37 Acrofales wrote: Is the tie breaker map score? Or h2h?
If Spirit beats Showtime, but loses to Gumiho (seems like a reasonable outcome given their current performances), and Creator loses to Astrea and Reynor, is Spirit out because he lost to Creator? Or does he have a shot based on map scores?
That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
I don’t think this works versus normal bio openers so it doesn’t matter, mech does not deserve to be meta it’s painfully boring
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
I don’t think this works versus normal bio openers so it doesn’t matter, mech does not deserve to be meta it’s painfully boring
I'm not worried about it vs Terran, I'm worried about it vs Protoss.
AND, that makes that counter timing work against Mech openers into Bio like Hellion/Banshee which has been a standard Bio opening for 10 years.
This is the same situation when DRG playd Maru back in Code S S1, just walk the Queen with Roach and Terran Battle Mech/Banshee cant deal with them that early. I thought that Cyclone with MagField was the answer to that but this timing just so damn quick.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
I don’t think this works versus normal bio openers so it doesn’t matter, mech does not deserve to be meta it’s painfully boring
I'm not worried about it vs Terran, I'm worried about it vs Protoss.
AND, that makes that counter timing work against Mech openers into Bio like Hellion/Banshee which has been a standard Bio opening for 10 years.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
I don’t think this works versus normal bio openers so it doesn’t matter, mech does not deserve to be meta it’s painfully boring
I'm not worried about it vs Terran, I'm worried about it vs Protoss.
AND, that makes that counter timing work against Mech openers into Bio like Hellion/Banshee which has been a standard Bio opening for 10 years.
you and phantom cant be more wrong
Good talk. Come back when you have something to actually contribute.
Btw at this point it feels like showtimes way of playing wont work anymore with protoss to me, maybe stats can come back and prove me wrong but i dont see a future in defensive protoss gameplay.
So they're just not going to talk about the absolutely bullshit timing that Reynor hit in game 1? Seriously? Even if you didn't think it was bullshit like I did, it was INCREDIBLY important that we haven't seen in any pro game in this tournament and they're just not going to mention it in the replay?
Terran players didn't have solution yet to kill top-tier Zerg, even with Maru, or Clem. I guess we need another ZvZ and herO to dismantle players like Serral, Dark and Reynor in any of playoff matches later.
On February 10 2023 22:07 Vindicare605 wrote: So they're just not going to talk about the absolutely bullshit timing that Reynor hit in game 1? Seriously? Even if you didn't think it was bullshit like I did, it was INCREDIBLY important that we haven't seen in any pro game in this tournament and they're just not going to mention it in the replay?
smh.
Calm down man. People have been playing variants of the dropperlord Queen all-in in every match-up since the day they removed their off-creep attack. There's 239089 all-ins you can use to punish greedy mech openers, and this is just another one.
On February 10 2023 22:09 Vindicare605 wrote: No one's going to ask him about Game 1? Are you kidding me?! ROFL.
Game 2 wasn't even important, and that's all they focused on.
His answer to game 1 was "I thought any form of aggression would kill him. And I was right"
Except that's a lie because Gumiho's Banshees would have easily defended any Roach/Ravager attack that Reynor threw out without the Queens being there.
The queens being part of the attack at that timing while Tanks were being transitioned to was EXACTLY what killed Gumiho, anything else Reynor would have "tried" wouldn't have been even remotely as effective.
On February 10 2023 22:07 Vindicare605 wrote: So they're just not going to talk about the absolutely bullshit timing that Reynor hit in game 1? Seriously? Even if you didn't think it was bullshit like I did, it was INCREDIBLY important that we haven't seen in any pro game in this tournament and they're just not going to mention it in the replay?
smh.
Calm down man. People have been playing variants of the dropperlord Queen all-in in every match-up since the day they removed their off-creep attack. There's 239089 all-ins you can use to punish greedy mech openers, and this is just another one.
Punish and outright kill when Gumiho had made the units that were supposed to be there specifically to defend against counter aggression are two completely different things.
On February 10 2023 22:07 Vindicare605 wrote: So they're just not going to talk about the absolutely bullshit timing that Reynor hit in game 1? Seriously? Even if you didn't think it was bullshit like I did, it was INCREDIBLY important that we haven't seen in any pro game in this tournament and they're just not going to mention it in the replay?
smh.
GuMiho’s was pretty uninspiring in this bo3, I am not sure there is much to talk about unless we see a similar situation in an important bo5+ later on in the tournament? I don’t think the other terrans are like « oh no zerg can do that we are screwed », they are probably more afraid of hydra and zerg lategame. As for protoss players, they have seen all queen walks variations already
ShoWTimE and Astrea are out; Spirit still has an outside chance if he can close out vs ShoWTimE (Creator's last match is vs Reynor where he'll be a big underdog
On February 10 2023 22:07 Vindicare605 wrote: So they're just not going to talk about the absolutely bullshit timing that Reynor hit in game 1? Seriously? Even if you didn't think it was bullshit like I did, it was INCREDIBLY important that we haven't seen in any pro game in this tournament and they're just not going to mention it in the replay?
smh.
Calm down man. People have been playing variants of the dropperlord Queen all-in in every match-up since the day they removed their off-creep attack. There's 239089 all-ins you can use to punish greedy mech openers, and this is just another one.
Punish and outright kill when Gumiho had made the units that were supposed to be there specifically to defend against counter aggression are two completely different things.
I don't know, Reynor seemed pretty confident he'd killed him as soon as he saw the greed. He didn't wanna explicitly say 'don't try to outgreed the greed master', but that was the spirit. In Italian there's a saying that goes something like 'don't try to steal in the thieves' house'.
On February 10 2023 22:17 Waxangel wrote: ShoWTimE and Astrea are out; Spirit still has an outside chance if he can close out vs ShoWTimE (Creator's last match is vs Reynor where he'll be a big underdog
Creator doesn't matter, he would advance instead of gumiho if he wins 2-0 vs him tomorrow.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
Didn't see the game but not sure what's "meta-breaking" about this. Dark used to do Dropperlord Queen allins all the time
On February 10 2023 22:17 Waxangel wrote: ShoWTimE and Astrea are out; Spirit still has an outside chance if he can close out vs ShoWTimE (Creator's last match is vs Reynor where he'll be a big underdog
Creator doesn't matter, he would advance instead of gumiho if he wins 2-0 vs him tomorrow.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
Didn't see the game but not sure what's "meta-breaking" about this. Dark used to do Dropperlord Queen allins all the time
Was that before, or after Queens got nerfed specifically to prevent stuff like that from happening? Because I have not seen anyone do anything like that since after the Queen was nerfed, and Gumiho clearly wasn't expecting Queens to be a part of that attack either because his Banshees were right on top of the Drop Overlords completely not ready to just be sniped out of the sky by the 6 queens that Reynor brought with him.
And regardless of what Reynor says, without those Queens, Gumiho does not die to that, I doubt he takes significant damage at all.
You guys might not think it was significant, but it is. It's going to be a more important facet later.
Honestly I hate this 'behind the scenes' caster desk bit where they're talking about how they secretly liked IEM more than BlizzCon all along.
I know the guys had to do a good job for their client Blizzard at the time, but it does hurt their credibility for me. Now I have to think, you're exaggerating about liking IEM and are gonna criticize it in in X years when you have to hype a newer and bigger event.
Obviously everyone knows casters are always trying to hype the event they're currently working (every game is the best they've ever seen yadayada), but yanking back the curtain like that is too off-putting for me.
On February 10 2023 22:29 Waxangel wrote: Honestly I hate this 'behind the scenes' caster desk bit where they're talking about how they secretly liked IEM more than BlizzCon all along.
Obv I know the guys had to do a good job for their client Blizzard at the time, but all it does it for me is hurt their credibility. Now I have to think, you're exaggerating about liking IEM and are gonna criticize it in in X years when you have to hype a newer and bigger event.
It's the same well known rule as never criticizing your former employer in the job market. Not sure why casters didn't get the memo.
On February 10 2023 22:29 Waxangel wrote: Honestly I hate this 'behind the scenes' caster desk bit where they're talking about how they secretly liked IEM more than BlizzCon all along.
I know the guys had to do a good job for their client Blizzard at the time, but it does hurt their credibility for me. Now I have to think, you're exaggerating about liking IEM and are gonna criticize it in in X years when you have to hype a newer and bigger event.
Obviously everyone knows casters are always trying to hype the event they're currently working, but yanking back the curtain like that is too off-putting for me.
I dunno, I thought it was pretty common knowledge that everyone thought the old Blizzcon events were massive headaches because of everything else that went with them.
It's been a pretty common opinion for a few years that IEM Katowice was the better event.
On February 10 2023 22:38 Poopi wrote: The dream seems over for Clem already.
He still has a chance, right?
His next two opponents are Dark and Cure.
I'm not sure which of them he should be more afraid of but he'd NEED to 2-0 both of them to stay in this if he loses to Neeb. Neeb was supposed to be a gimme for him in this group.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
Didn't see the game but not sure what's "meta-breaking" about this. Dark used to do Dropperlord Queen allins all the time
Was that before, or after Queens got nerfed specifically to prevent stuff like that from happening? Because I have not seen anyone do anything like that since after the Queen was nerfed, and Gumiho clearly wasn't expecting Queens to be a part of that attack either because his Banshees were right on top of the Drop Overlords completely not ready to just be sniped out of the sky by the 6 queens that Reynor brought with him.
And regardless of what Reynor says, without those Queens, Gumiho does not die to that, I doubt he takes significant damage at all.
You guys might not think it was significant, but it is. It's going to be a more important facet later.
This build wasn't really effected by the patch because you have a lair anyway.
-Creator and Reynor are 100% qualified for RO12; their head-to-head decides #1 seed -Spirit vs GuMiho decides last RO12 spot. Spirit in with 2-0, GuMiho in with 1-2 or better result (needs only one map win). -Astrea and ShoWTimE are out
On February 10 2023 22:59 Argonauta wrote: RagnaGod 2-0'ing Dark
Thankfully Reynor and Hero have no mirrors in their group, preventing every player in the top 5 from being upset in a mirror .
What this eventually is going to mean is that somewhere down the line we're going to get a potential finals match MUCH earlier in the playoffs than we should.
On February 10 2023 23:04 Acrofales wrote: I don't really think Clem wins this. Maybe his big Terran deathball just wins the game, but it really seems he's being outplayed quite thoroughly.
E: turns out the deathball was enough.
That and Neeb control his unit pretty sad, all the Mines hit and not micro the Colossi back.
On February 10 2023 23:04 Acrofales wrote: I don't really think Clem wins this. Maybe his big Terran deathball just wins the game, but it really seems he's being outplayed quite thoroughly.
E: turns out the deathball was enough.
That and Neeb control his unit pretty sad, all the Mines hit and not micro the Colossi back.
The level difference is just too big at this point, yet the series was so close. Maybe Clem can actually qualify? Gogo
On February 10 2023 23:09 buzz_bender wrote: I'm assuming that we'll be getting the Ro12 also today, right?
I don't see how we can, we can't do the next round till all of the seeds have been figured out and Group B needs the last round of games to figure that out.
It's going to come down to Ragnarok's shaky TvZ to play kingmaker in this group. If he wins outright he advances and Cure is out. If he loses to Cure and beats TIME then I think TIME will be out. Neeb can also ruin TIME's run and save Cure if he beats TIME head to head, but Neeb is out now I don't see anyway he survives.
On February 10 2023 23:20 Vindicare605 wrote: It's going to come down to Ragnarok's shaky TvZ to play kingmaker in this group. If he wins outright he advances and Cure is out. If he loses to Cure and beats TIME then I think TIME will be out. Neeb can also ruin TIME's run and save Cure if he beats TIME head to head, but Neeb is out now I don't see anyway he survives.
Noone is out yet, and cure also wouldn't be 100% out if he loses (though he has to win at least a map). There are theoretical ways yet for a lot of drama. Though the next round will close a lot of these potentials.
On February 10 2023 23:20 Vindicare605 wrote: It's going to come down to Ragnarok's shaky TvZ to play kingmaker in this group. If he wins outright he advances and Cure is out. If he loses to Cure and beats TIME then I think TIME will be out. Neeb can also ruin TIME's run and save Cure if he beats TIME head to head, but Neeb is out now I don't see anyway he survives.
Noone is out yet, and cure also wouldn't be 100% out if he loses (though he has to win at least a map). There are theoretical ways yet for a lot of drama.
Neeb needs to beat Dark and TIME 2-0 and he needs both of them to lose all of their remaining matches 0-2 for him to have a chance and he needs Ragnarok to 2-0 Cure.
He basically needs Ragnarok to beast the rest of the way, and he needs Clem to beat Dark.
On February 10 2023 23:20 Vindicare605 wrote: It's going to come down to Ragnarok's shaky TvZ to play kingmaker in this group. If he wins outright he advances and Cure is out. If he loses to Cure and beats TIME then I think TIME will be out. Neeb can also ruin TIME's run and save Cure if he beats TIME head to head, but Neeb is out now I don't see anyway he survives.
Noone is out yet, and cure also wouldn't be 100% out if he loses (though he has to win at least a map). There are theoretical ways yet for a lot of drama.
Neeb needs to beat Dark and TIME 2-0 and he needs both of them to lose all of their remaining matches 0-2 for him to have a chance and he needs Ragnarok to 2-0 Cure.
He basically needs Ragnarok to beast the rest of the way, and he needs Clem to beat Dark.
He's not at 0% but he's basically dead.
Not even that is 100% correct But yeah ofc the likelihood of neeb advancing is very slim
Nah. Cure wasn't ready for the Broods. This is what happens when Broods surprise someone that has no Vikings ready for them. In the game vs Dark, by the time the Broods came out Cure was already ready for them because Dark went Ultralisks first.
On February 10 2023 21:55 Vindicare605 wrote: That just tilted me. Reynor just broke the meta with that bullshit. It never occured to me that Queens only take up 1/4 of a Drop Overlord, that COMPLETELY changes the timing that you can queen walk, and Overlords can drop creep which eliminates the nerf to transfuse that we had a few patches ago.
He just brought evolved Queen walk back to the meta.
dropperlord queens shutting down mech is nothing new. it's been like this since the start of LotV. there is no safe and secure mech opening.
battlecruisers seemed like a semi-solid opening for a brief spell, while zergs were still figuring out how to deal with it. now it gets deflected and crushed every time by a corruptor timing with queens and roaches. mech can't defend these timings because the sheer amount of zerg units and sustain from queens is insurmountable. maybe if battlecruisers had a cooldown that increased their DPS by 100% for 20 seconds
if you want to play mech and be safe against the queen drop timing, you have to pre-emptively build marine / tank instead of hellions. however, if Z just macros or does anything else, you lose because you built marine tank instead of hellions lol. it's absolutely stupid, but there it is. playing mech vZ is just gambling. the best way to play mech is to play bio 99% of your games and not have a reputation for playing mech like GuMiho does.
this is why the best mech player is, in fact, Byun or Clem
Actually this is not the first time Cure played this build, he did the same thing vs Solar in one of the GSL tournament, and yep, Solar just threw 10 lings in and gg.
On February 11 2023 00:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: lol, I just missed Ragnarok/Cure game 3?
Well, I guess, but here's the summary: Cure built buildings. Ragnarok killed him with 8 zergings.
How nostalgic. The first series of pro StarCraft I ever saw had an ace match between Flash and Jaedong that the casters hyped for the whole series. Flash went 14CC. Jaedong went for a... 4Pool, I assume though I might be misremembering the exact Zergling rush.
On February 11 2023 00:45 tigera6 wrote: Cure and Neeb are eliminated right, they cant catch Oliveira map score no matter what?
I don't know about Neeb, but Cure shouldn't be out. If Cure 2-0's Clem and Clem doesn't win vs Dark, I think Cure can make it. Depends on what TIME does in his last match.
On February 11 2023 00:56 buzz_bender wrote: Is it just me or has Maru moved away from heavy Raven play in TvT? He hardly built any Ravens against Bunny and also against ByuN.
the patch did change ravens quite a bit, maybe they aren't that good in TvT anymore
On February 11 2023 00:51 tlnetuser108 wrote: Holy shit what has happened? Dark, Serral and Maru not in 1st place in their group? Has the world gone mad?
You don't remember Maru losing to a lot of players while doing stupid stuff, or bombing out of Blizzcon in 1st round two times? Or Serral falling to low bracket in TSL?
BTW, all 3 streams are in youtube now, not jsut the main one.
Unfortunately I don't think you can do the "group stream" thing you can on do on Twitch, on youtube, but the stream has a smaller delay in youtube and more consistent quality
On February 11 2023 00:51 Morbidius wrote: Clem has to win this series if he doesn't want to gamble tomorrow on a TvT vs a Korean.
If someone like HM can beat Maru, Clem can definitely beat any Korean Terran
I'm not convinced, Clem's weakness has always been Korean P and T. HM seems to be on the form of his life, finally beating Maru.
I don't think Clem is so bad against Korean P, he's lost but also beaten most of them and usually doesn't get blown out like he does against Korean Terran. At the very least, TvT is a much bigger weakness for him.
I also have little faith that Clem can beat Cure on demand, but I wouldn't be shocked against he did.
I think Maru just redefined the TvT meta. No longer just pure heavy Raven. It's now, position tanks, with liberators, use Raven to go AA with lots of vikings.
If you guys didn't see that game. It's hard for me to even describe how Maru was being manhandled, on the verge of just straight up dying and then he just flips the game around and Bunny looks helpless to stop him.
On February 11 2023 01:10 royalroadweed wrote: New patch TvT has been the best matchup at IEM by a mile.
Totally. Wings TvT was awesome because it was so positional. HotS TvT sucked because medivac boost totally removed that dynamic. I think the new patch has finally brought LotV TvT back to that incredibly positional game with the tank/lib/marine/raven dance.
On February 11 2023 01:17 Waxangel wrote: Real SC2 fans know TvT was ALWAYS the best match-up in all of SC2, except during the tankivac phase
I forgot about tankivacs, lol. Tried to erase that entire year from my mind.
People remember the Tankivacs but I still remember 8 armor Ultralisks and Release Liberators. AND Reapers were broken as fuck too, and Adepts, AND the Mothership Core was still in the game.
So can someone who understands Mech tell me if it's normal that Clem went 2/2 Mech upgrades, then 2/2 bio upgrades, and only after that got the final 3/3 mech upgrades?
On February 11 2023 01:17 Waxangel wrote: Real SC2 fans know TvT was ALWAYS the best match-up in all of SC2, except during the tankivac phase
I forgot about tankivacs, lol. Tried to erase that entire year from my mind.
People remember the Tankivacs but I still remember 8 armor Ultralisks and Release Liberators. AND Reapers were broken as fuck too, and Adepts, AND the Mothership Core was still in the game.
Early LOTV was just a mess.
Pylon overcharge. never forget!
I literally just played HotS in 2016 b/c I didn't want to deal with all the broken crap in early LOTV. Plus I hated tankivacs on a spiritual level.
Somehow Bunny takes good fight after good fight and gets into a really good position. Then Maru takes ONE big battle in a good position and just uses that momentum to do game-ending damage.
No other player makes the kind of unbelievable plays Maru just did in both of his series against ByuN and Bunny... insane control and plays. Jaw-dropping stuff.
On February 11 2023 01:33 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Between this and the ByuN series Maru's just that godlike in TvT. Gonna take a hell of a Zerg to take him down
On February 11 2023 01:33 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Between this and the ByuN series Maru's just that godlike in TvT. Gonna take a hell of a Zerg to take him down
Or one REALLY big Gabe apparently.
OK but that was Ginormous Gabe, the cousin of Notorious G.A.B.
On February 11 2023 01:36 royalroadweed wrote: Up until the blinding clouds I thought Clem was using the map features and positioning his tanks really well.
Yea up until Zerg used the flying unit that invalidates positional play.
On February 11 2023 01:33 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Between this and the ByuN series Maru's just that godlike in TvT. Gonna take a Hell of a Zerg to take him down
Or one REALLY big Gabe apparently.
OK but that was Ginormous Gabe, the cousin of Notorious G.A.B.
On February 11 2023 01:36 royalroadweed wrote: Up until the blinding clouds I thought Clem was using the map features and positioning his tanks really well.
Yea up until Zerg used the flying unit that invalidates positional play.
Well, Clem no longer has it all under his own control. If Oliveira beats Ragnarok, I don't think Clem has any way to advance. Both Oliveira and Ragnarok's map score is too good.
Clem might make it through just because Cure is already eliminated so might not play his best. TIME has a tough match up too against Ragnarok who is fighting for 1st place in the group.
On February 11 2023 01:52 tlnetuser108 wrote: How Clem can beat Serral but lose to Dark is beyond me. We know Serral is better than Dark
? I'm a Serral fan but it's pretty clear that Dark is best in the world at ZvT a lot of the time (at other times Serral looks like the best in the world at the MU.)
Also this is offline, Clem mainly beats Serral in DHM.
Alright, big test for big Gabe. You upset one of the big Korean Terrans. Can you do it twice?
Wait wtf. Next game for B stream is HeroMarine vs Lambo and next game for the main stream is HeroMarine vs Byun. They're really going to make him play back to back like that?
I don't get the scheduling today. Having the extra group A game on the main stage appears to have thrown everything out of whack, with the B and C stream twiddling their thumbs...
So after just more than 1.5 day into the tournament, 3 Protoss has been eliminated with a 4th (Classic) is on the verge as well. That leave 2 Protoss (herO and Creator) into the Ro12 and with 5 Terran + 5 Zerg, what a perfect ration. Somebody tell me why Protoss get nerfed again?
On February 11 2023 01:59 Acrofales wrote: I don't get the scheduling today. Having the extra group A game on the main stage appears to have thrown everything out of whack, with the B and C stream twiddling their thumbs...
ESL somehow have 2 groups play on the main stage twice per days. Yesterday it was group B and D, today its group A and C. And yes, thats just how they want to push the schedule back, probably to make it a 10hrs stream.
On February 11 2023 02:01 tigera6 wrote: So after just more than 1.5 day into the tournament, 3 Protoss has been eliminated with a 4th (Classic) is on the verge as well. That leave 2 Protoss (herO and Creator) into the Ro12 and with 5 Terran + 5 Zerg, what a perfect ration. Somebody tell me why Protoss get nerfed again?
This probably would have happened even without the patch but it does make the smell of the balance changes reek when the worst performing race got the least from it and the best performing race got the most.
That said, Protoss needs more than a couple of bones thrown their way to make up for the lack of talent playing the race right now. They need MaxPax to start playing LANs and they need Classic to get his mojo back.
It also really sucks that Classic got thrown into group D, he might have been able to do something had he gotten placed in Group B instead.
On February 11 2023 01:52 tlnetuser108 wrote: How Clem can beat Serral but lose to Dark is beyond me. We know Serral is better than Dark
Is he though? And it’s a new mappool + patch specifically designed to buff zerg since Maru/herO/Clem managed to win tournaments this season. I don’t think Serral would have lost to Clem in these conditions either
On February 11 2023 02:01 tigera6 wrote: So after just more than 1.5 day into the tournament, 3 Protoss has been eliminated with a 4th (Classic) is on the verge as well. That leave 2 Protoss (herO and Creator) into the Ro12 and with 5 Terran + 5 Zerg, what a perfect ration. Somebody tell me why Protoss get nerfed again?
Not unexpected. I would have only been truly shocked if herO didn't make it. Astrea, Showtime and Creator are inconsistent and Classic is nowhere near his old self.
The production probably thought the clem vs dark match-up would produce some great back-and-forth drama worthy to make it the only thing going on, while unfortunately clem just kinda dies.
It was the build that win Byun the game, high ground CC, 2nd rack and quick Factory was the perfect counter build. Byun would be dead had he done a standard build.
On February 11 2023 02:16 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Tasteless says "I know exactly what he said in Korean, but I can't repeat it" lol know I want to know what he said
Looked VERY much like he said “씨발” which translates to “fuck” in this case. I had the same reaction to Tasteless.
On February 11 2023 02:16 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Tasteless says "I know exactly what he said in Korean, but I can't repeat it" lol know I want to know what he said
Looked VERY much like he said “씨발” which translates to “fuck” in this case. I had the same reaction to Tasteless.
Omg, Wolf! Thanks for the translation, that's hilarious.
Byun > Heromarine > Maru > Byun? The new TvT circle of power?
ByuN so strong as expected! His series vs Maru was incredible, his TvT has improved a lot especially since being aggro is now more rewarded in this patch
Classic lost to Lambo 0-2? He's basically dead now. He plays against Byun and Maru next so we gotta see something special for him to advance out of this group now.
On February 11 2023 02:42 [Phantom] wrote: If classic doesn't advance that means there will be 2 protoss in the round of 12.
But sure, lets keep nerfing Protoss!
TBH I'm surprised it's not just 1. Creator played better than I thought he would in the easiest group by far of the 4. We're lucky to even have 2 Protoss in the Top 12.
But if Classic had been placed in Group B, we'd likely have 3.
So it's a combo of bracket luck and yea... Protoss.
Group A: Clem was on the main stream 3 times, Oliveira none Group B: Astrea and GuMiho were on the main stream 3 times, Creator none Group D: ByuN was on the main stream 3 times, Bunny none
Everyone deserves to be on the main stream at least once during group stage
On February 11 2023 02:50 FCHK wrote: Through 4 rounds
Group A: Clem was on the main stream 3 times, Oliveira none Group B: Astrea and GuMiho were on the main stream 3 times, Creator none Group D: ByuN was on the main stream 3 times, Bunny none
Everyone deserves to be on the main stream at least once during group stage
They manage to do that every year. But there's still matches left tomorrow so they could fix it.
On February 11 2023 02:50 FCHK wrote: Through 4 rounds
Group A: Clem was on the main stream 3 times, Oliveira none Group B: Astrea and GuMiho were on the main stream 3 times, Creator none Group D: ByuN was on the main stream 3 times, Bunny none
Everyone deserves to be on the main stream at least once during group stage
TIME never gets the respect he deserves from ESL.
But he keeps putting up solid results anyway, defeating fan favorites along the way.
On February 11 2023 02:50 FCHK wrote: Through 4 rounds
Group A: Clem was on the main stream 3 times, Oliveira none Group B: Astrea and GuMiho were on the main stream 3 times, Creator none Group D: ByuN was on the main stream 3 times, Bunny none
Everyone deserves to be on the main stream at least once during group stage
They manage to do that every year. But there's still matches left tomorrow so they could fix it.
there's a couple that I think are obviously gonna be on main stream tomorrow
TIME-Rag is the only match that's meaningful for both players in Group A
Creator-Reynor for first place in Group B is much more likely to be meaningful than Gumi-Spirit which is over as soon as Spirit drops a map (they might try to high-roll on the Spirit 2-0 but I think that's a tough gamble)
On February 11 2023 02:50 FCHK wrote: Through 4 rounds
Group A: Clem was on the main stream 3 times, Oliveira none Group B: Astrea and GuMiho were on the main stream 3 times, Creator none Group D: ByuN was on the main stream 3 times, Bunny none
Everyone deserves to be on the main stream at least once during group stage
Damn, Bunny looked fantastic vs Maru but hasn't been able to harness that vs anyone else. I'm not sure he can escape this group now that Byun is up 1-0.
On February 11 2023 03:02 [Phantom] wrote: That is a big issue, for the (few) sponsors..
You send your players to the biggest tourbament of the year, they qualify, and you dont even get a second of sponsor exposure?
I dunno. I don't think many people are looks at the various logos ob ByuN's shirt. If you're sponsoring SC2 in the hope of getting money's worth for a few seconds of screentime on the main stage I think that's always a losing proposition...
I agree with the general point that it's unfair. But it's unfair to players and their fans. The sponsors have very little to complain about here ...
On February 11 2023 03:02 [Phantom] wrote: That is a big issue, for the (few) sponsors..
You send your players to the biggest tourbament of the year, they qualify, and you dont even get a second of sponsor exposure?
I dunno. I don't think many people are looks at the various logos ob ByuN's shirt. If you're sponsoring SC2 in the hope of getting money's worth for a few seconds of screentime on the main stage I think that's always a losing proposition...
Well yea, that's why it's hard to get SC2 sponsors in the first place as a player, but then now you hear that even when you're winning you still aren't being shown on the main stage? That just makes it that much harder.
The Sponsors don't complain, they just drop out. That ends up hurting the players, and that ends up hurting the scene.
On February 11 2023 03:02 [Phantom] wrote: That is a big issue, for the (few) sponsors..
You send your players to the biggest tourbament of the year, they qualify, and you dont even get a second of sponsor exposure?
I dunno. I don't think many people are looks at the various logos ob ByuN's shirt. If you're sponsoring SC2 in the hope of getting money's worth for a few seconds of screentime on the main stage I think that's always a losing proposition...
Well yea, that's why it's hard to get SC2 sponsors in the first place as a player, but then now you hear that even when you're winning you still aren't being shown on the main stage? That just makes it that much harder.
Don't get me wrong, I think there are ways for sponsors to get money's worth. Streaming, team tournaments, etc.
Normally this proxy battery Tempest shit is the most disgraceful filth you can summon in a PvT, but considering what Classic is up against in this tournament I can't really blame him.
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
Tempests aren't supposed to be good vs Vikings. They're supposed to be good vs Capital Ships and Broodlords.
They can't get buffed because the first thing Protoss do with them is use them in stupid all ins like this. They are supposed to be a late game unit for countering turtle style play, Broodlords, and Battlecruisers.
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
Tempests aren't supposed to be good vs Vikings. They're supposed to be good vs Capital Ships and Broodlords.
They can't get buffed because the first thing Protoss do with them is use them in stupid all ins like this. They are supposed to be a late game unit for countering turtle style play, Broodlords, and Battlecruisers.
Yes, but Vikigns got buffed, and BL.
Tempest are still super slow, take forever to atach into a target, and forever to turn around.
So now Tempest do even worse vs vikings than before, and they do worse vs BL, while still being able to be coutnered by BC with their jump.
I'm not saying they should be good vs vikigns, but they just have received the same buff hydras got to mantain the unit relationship. And Actually i'd argue they do need an anti air buff now that liberators will be more common in the matchup.
In any case, that was a pathetic game from classic. The tempest damage sucks vs air and vs ground if you don't have the upgrade the damage will be just repaired, idk why he didn't research it.
Classic and Bunny are pretty much dead now. I don't see how they can catch up to the map scores that Lambo, Byun and HeroMarine have. Maru is pretty safe at number 1.
Group D decided already with Gabe, Maru, ByuN all going 3-1 and advancing, and Classic, Bunny, and Lambo all going 1-3 and eliminated. Just final rankings to be decided.
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
Tempests aren't supposed to be good vs Vikings. They're supposed to be good vs Capital Ships and Broodlords.
They can't get buffed because the first thing Protoss do with them is use them in stupid all ins like this. They are supposed to be a late game unit for countering turtle style play, Broodlords, and Battlecruisers.
Yes, but Vikigns got buffed, and BL.
Tempest are still super slow, take forever to atach into a target, and forever to turn around.
So now Tempest do even worse vs vikings than before, and they do worse vs BL, while still being able to be coutnered by BC with their jump.
I'm not saying they should be good vs vikigns, but they just have received the same buff hydras got to mantain the unit relationship. And Actually i'd argue they do need an anti air buff now that liberators will be more common in the matchup.
In any case, that was a pathetic game from classic. The tempest damage sucks vs air and vs ground if you don't have the upgrade the damage will be just repaired, idk why he didn't research it.
Vikings got buffed BECAUSE Broodlords did.
Could make the whole situation simpler by just reverting the Broodlord buffs altogether and all of the arms racing it causes.
On February 11 2023 03:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Looks like all the Ro36 players will be eliminated during the groups this year as well. Has anyone ever gotten to the playoffs from the Ro36?
People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a more enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. That is the overarching theme of the patch. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Please. Anyone with working eyes can see that Broodlords are significantly better now than they were pre patch. The nerf to the Broodling Duration was just to compensate for how much better they are to keep them from getting out of hand and breaking the game again like they already have twice in SC2's life.
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Yeah, they did it so there is more enjobable playing (for zerg) and viewing, withouth any thought of the implications, that's the whole issue most people ahd with the patch. I'll due on the hill that Tempest need a buff.
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
Sometimes I complain about Terran balance, but here it seems they eneded up with the best result of still being decent vs Zerg and buffed vs Protoss.
And yeah, I agree Classic didn't lose because of balance, he justplayed terrible, but that doesn't mean Tempest don't need a buff when the unit they are supposed to counter got better, BC are still decent agaisnt them, and their counters (vikings) got buffed.
____ Edit:
Also I'll admit at least a small part of this is jsut to discuss something between games
On February 11 2023 03:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Looks like all the Ro36 players will be eliminated during the groups this year as well. Has anyone ever gotten to the playoffs from the Ro36?
If I remember correct.
Maru went through the open bracket in 2018 and made the ro4. Almost won vs the champion.
Stats went through the ro64 in 2017 and barely lost the final 3-4 to TY.
soO went through the open bracket/ro76 in 2019 and won the whole thing.
On February 11 2023 03:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Looks like all the Ro36 players will be eliminated during the groups this year as well. Has anyone ever gotten to the playoffs from the Ro36?
If I remember correct.
Maru went through the open bracket in 2018 and made the ro4. Almost won vs the champion.
Stats went through the ro64 in 2017 and barely lost the final 3-4 to TY.
soO went through the open bracket in 2019 and won the whole thing.
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Yeah, they did it so there is more enjobable playing (for zerg) and viewing, withouth any thought of the implications, that's the whole issue most people ahd with the patch. I'll due on the hill that Tempest need a buff.
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
Sometimes I complain about Terran balance, but here it seems they eneded up with the best result of still being decent vs Zerg and buffed vs Protoss.
And yeah, I agree Classic didn't lose because of balance, he justplayed terrible, but that doesn't mean Tempest don't need a buff when the unit they are supposed to counter got better, BC are still decent agaisnt them, and their counters (vikings) got buffed.
if only protoss had other units that dealt bonus armor damage.
but seriously, how do you enjoy the game when this is the only thing you do in every thread I see you post in?
I think this lowground wall in TvZ thing is just a terrible idea. Too exposed, if you end up with Stim exposed in the wall, it's just a very bad situation vs any aggression.
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Yeah, they did it so there is more enjobable playing (for zerg) and viewing, withouth any thought of the implications, that's the whole issue most people ahd with the patch. I'll due on the hill that Tempest need a buff.
On February 11 2023 03:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
Sometimes I complain about Terran balance, but here it seems they eneded up with the best result of still being decent vs Zerg and buffed vs Protoss.
And yeah, I agree Classic didn't lose because of balance, he justplayed terrible, but that doesn't mean Tempest don't need a buff when the unit they are supposed to counter got better, BC are still decent agaisnt them, and their counters (vikings) got buffed.
if only protoss had other units that dealt bonus armor damage.
but seriously, how do you enjoy the game when this is the only thing you do in every thread I see you post in?
I'll admit I do have those viewpoints but might exagarate them to create discussion between matches (They could use the same buff hydras got to aquire targets faster though, but yeah unrelated to that game classic lost)
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Yeah, they did it so there is more enjobable playing (for zerg) and viewing, withouth any thought of the implications, that's the whole issue most people ahd with the patch. I'll due on the hill that Tempest need a buff.
On February 11 2023 03:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
Sometimes I complain about Terran balance, but here it seems they eneded up with the best result of still being decent vs Zerg and buffed vs Protoss.
And yeah, I agree Classic didn't lose because of balance, he justplayed terrible, but that doesn't mean Tempest don't need a buff when the unit they are supposed to counter got better, BC are still decent agaisnt them, and their counters (vikings) got buffed.
if only protoss had other units that dealt bonus armor damage.
but seriously, how do you enjoy the game when this is the only thing you do in every thread I see you post in?
I'll admit I do have those viewpoints but might exagarate them to create discussion between matches (They could use the same buff hydras got to aquire targets faster though, but yeah unrelated to that game classic lost)
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Yeah, they did it so there is more enjobable playing (for zerg) and viewing, withouth any thought of the implications, that's the whole issue most people ahd with the patch. I'll due on the hill that Tempest need a buff.
On February 11 2023 03:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
Sometimes I complain about Terran balance, but here it seems they eneded up with the best result of still being decent vs Zerg and buffed vs Protoss.
And yeah, I agree Classic didn't lose because of balance, he justplayed terrible, but that doesn't mean Tempest don't need a buff when the unit they are supposed to counter got better, BC are still decent agaisnt them, and their counters (vikings) got buffed.
if only protoss had other units that dealt bonus armor damage.
but seriously, how do you enjoy the game when this is the only thing you do in every thread I see you post in?
I'll admit I do have those viewpoints but might exagarate them to create discussion between matches (They could use the same buff hydras got to aquire targets faster though, but yeah unrelated to that game classic lost)
I'm telling you that the reason they can't do that with Tempests is because the first thing Protoss will do with that buff is to use them in proxy all ins again. At least with Broodlords and Vikings buffing them that way doesn't lead to stupid builds like that becoming a thing.
If they're going to buff Tempests it has to be in some other way that doesn't affect their ability to be exploitive in the early game. Making them more microable like you're suggesting is just going to lead to toxic builds becoming common again and that's going to lead to them being nerfed again.
I'll admit I do have those viewpoints but might exagarate them to create discussion between matches (They could use the same buff hydras got to aquire targets faster though, but yeah unrelated to that game classic lost)
you actually can't help yourself, can you?
I can't, but I'll try my best for the rest of the tournament.
Just looked at Group A. Matches tomorrow are going to be good. Dark & Ragnorak should both be playing for wins right? Which makes Clem having a decent shot at getting in?
On February 11 2023 03:33 Gescom wrote: People talking about Brood Lords buffs as though Broodlings didn't lose duration. The changes were all designed to make for a major enjoyable playing and viewing experience. Units are more microable, and there is more skill potential. Don't look at things with such a basic viewpoint.
Yeah, they did it so there is more enjobable playing (for zerg) and viewing, withouth any thought of the implications, that's the whole issue most people ahd with the patch. I'll due on the hill that Tempest need a buff.
On February 11 2023 03:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
On February 11 2023 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Tempest are so much worse vs vikings now. Tempest need a desperrate buff, idk why they werent buffed.
But also idk why he didn't research the building damage, that's the whole point
do you ever do anything other than complain about protoss balance?
it was a cheese build, i don't think you can interpret anything about the balance of tempests from this match. if anything, how maru reacted should tell you WHY this build isn't played outside of a random cheese.
Sometimes I complain about Terran balance, but here it seems they eneded up with the best result of still being decent vs Zerg and buffed vs Protoss.
And yeah, I agree Classic didn't lose because of balance, he justplayed terrible, but that doesn't mean Tempest don't need a buff when the unit they are supposed to counter got better, BC are still decent agaisnt them, and their counters (vikings) got buffed.
if only protoss had other units that dealt bonus armor damage.
but seriously, how do you enjoy the game when this is the only thing you do in every thread I see you post in?
I'll admit I do have those viewpoints but might exagarate them to create discussion between matches (They could use the same buff hydras got to aquire targets faster though, but yeah unrelated to that game classic lost)
you actually can't help yourself, can you?
I seriously can't believe someone who posts like this is actually a mod on TL nowadays..
the whole atmosphere has been so negative in every thread here lately
On February 11 2023 03:57 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Serral not inspiring so far. Special... not handling that perfectly.
I think Serral looked good in G1 against Solar, a proxy hatch isn't something you normally look for in ZvZ and considering when Serral saw it relying on harass was the right call.
Too early to say if yesterday's loss was a blip though.
On February 11 2023 03:57 mpmaley86 wrote: Just looked at Group A. Matches tomorrow are going to be good. Dark & Ragnorak should both be playing for wins right? Which makes Clem having a decent shot at getting in?
It depends on map score. Clem needs a better map score at the end of the round, if they end up tied, TIME will advance because he beat Clem head to head so he has the tiebreaker.
Clem needs to win vs Cure because he doesn't have as many map wins as TIME does, he needs TIME to lose and ideally 0-2. If both of them lose, TIME will advance because Clem needs 2 more map wins to catch him.
So Clem has a chance, but TIME has a better chance. It all depends on how well Clem plays vs Cure.If he wins vs Cure and TIME loses vs Ragnarok he'll advance with a 3-2 series score vs TIME's 2-3.
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
On February 11 2023 03:57 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Serral not inspiring so far. Special... not handling that perfectly.
I think Serral looked good in G1 against Solar, a proxy hatch isn't something you normally look for in ZvZ and considering when Serral saw it relying on harass was the right call.
Too early to say if yesterday's loss was a blip though.
Eh, the situation handling and engagements game 1 didn't give me the total-control perfection vibe that I think Serral will need against this field.
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
I WAS PROMISED A SINECURE!
Elazer doesn't seem to care.
i was watching liquid finally win some rounds in csgo, Elazer is up 1-0 what happened?
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
I WAS PROMISED A SINECURE!
Elazer doesn't seem to care.
i was watching liquid finally win some rounds in csgo, Elazer is up 1-0 what happened?
On February 11 2023 03:37 Elentos wrote: Gotta get Elazer on main stream as many times as possible before he's out I guess
I think it has more to do with trying to give Protoss viewers a W after all of the previous L's they've taken on the big stage from the last couple groups.
I WAS PROMISED A SINECURE!
Elazer doesn't seem to care.
i was watching liquid finally win some rounds in csgo, Elazer is up 1-0 what happened?
On February 11 2023 04:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Game 2 is a mental win for DRG here. He's losing, but this got way closer than it should have after the 3-rax.
On February 11 2023 04:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Game 2 is a mental win for DRG here. He's losing, but this got way closer than it should have after the 3-rax.
Yeah how is that game even still going on
Special's lead was only very slightly larger than the skill difference is how.
On February 11 2023 04:22 Acrofales wrote: Serral goes spire and gets killed. I know he has to try mutas every now and then, but he really isn't very good at it...
Mutas continuing to get decimated in ZvZ in this tournament. Mounting evidence that the Hydralisk buff might have killed them in the match up.
Trying to recall when herO straightly came back from military service, he literally stopped the successive queen walk attack by Elazer or Lambo? with just mass oracles and blinked stalkers. Now, Elazer paid back with faster hydras timing.
So that means that Serral's last game tonight is a must win. He can't possibly get out of the group if he loses to herO in the final match of the night.
Oooh this is getting spicy and herO is tied up in this series, it might be a must win for him if he wants to keep hold of first place.
On February 11 2023 04:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Game 2 is a mental win for DRG here. He's losing, but this got way closer than it should have after the 3-rax.
Yeah how is that game even still going on
Special's lead was only very slightly larger than the skill difference is how.
herO might be one of the players most immediately fucked by ESL not having the groups finish in the same day. In yesterday's form he might have 10-0'd.
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
It takes balls to become a champion, and opening the door to let feral beasts into your home sure takes big balls.
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
Their brains are so beyond mortal comprehension I can't begin to answer this.
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
Yes.
The results speak for themselves. Looking forward to Dark revolutionising ZvZ .
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
lose all your probes, win the game.
Actually, when you say it like that it also sounds like Zest.
On February 11 2023 04:37 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm happy to see Protoss win, but I hope Colossus doesn't become the standard in the matchup again, it's really not a fun unit.
It might have to, if heavy Hydralisk becomes meta, I don't see what other option Protoss has. Hydras are so fast and deal so much damage they can dodge storms, burst Archons, and dodge Novas. Collosus with their range might be the best answer for fighting them on the ground.
On February 11 2023 04:32 Fanatic-Templar wrote: How is it that both Maru and Hero so frequently leave their walls open to Zerglings? Is this the mentality of champions?
lose all your probes, win the game.
Actually, when you say it like that it also sounds like Zest.
Well he's the most successful Protoss player ever for a reason
On February 11 2023 04:37 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm happy to see Protoss win, but I hope Colossus doesn't become the standard in the matchup again, it's really not a fun unit.
I mean the made hydras faster and more maneuverable so storm and balls are less efficient now.
On February 11 2023 04:37 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm happy to see Protoss win, but I hope Colossus doesn't become the standard in the matchup again, it's really not a fun unit.
It might have to, if heavy Hydralisk becomes meta, I don't see what other option Protoss has. Hydras are so fast and deal so much damage they can dodge storms, burst Archons, and dodge Novas. Collosus with their range might be the best answer for fighting them on the ground.
And then Hydras become Lurkers and it gets worse.
If it weren't for herO Protoss would be nonexistent at the top. OTOH they dominate ladder, because they have so many easy to use, hard to counter units at any level below the top pros.
On February 11 2023 04:37 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm happy to see Protoss win, but I hope Colossus doesn't become the standard in the matchup again, it's really not a fun unit.
It might have to, if heavy Hydralisk becomes meta, I don't see what other option Protoss has. Hydras are so fast and deal so much damage they can dodge storms, burst Archons, and dodge Novas. Collosus with their range might be the best answer for fighting them on the ground.
And then Hydras become Lurkers and it gets worse.
I think buffing storm is the key! Give it one extra click of duration -- keeps dps same increases damage to 90.
I don't think this will hurt pvt too much as dodging storms means the extra duration essentially doesn't matter.
On February 11 2023 04:37 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm happy to see Protoss win, but I hope Colossus doesn't become the standard in the matchup again, it's really not a fun unit.
It might have to, if heavy Hydralisk becomes meta, I don't see what other option Protoss has. Hydras are so fast and deal so much damage they can dodge storms, burst Archons, and dodge Novas. Collosus with their range might be the best answer for fighting them on the ground.
And then Hydras become Lurkers and it gets worse.
I think buffing storm is the key! Give it one extra click of duration -- keeps dps same increases damage to 90.
I don't think this will hurt pvt too much as dodging storms means the extra duration essentially doesn't matter.
I think the only thing that changes vs T is that storm would now 1shot mines?
I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
On February 11 2023 04:54 Seacow wrote: I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
then serral goes 0-2 vs zergs in IEM hehehehe
Well if this tournament is anything to go off of, the Europeans have gotten bodied in pretty much all of the mirrors with the notable exception of HeroMarine vs Maru which is going to stand probably as one of the more surprising upsets of the week. Not surprising really since it's Maru, he's due to drop a series he shouldn't once per tournament.
On February 11 2023 04:54 Seacow wrote: I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
then serral goes 0-2 vs zergs in IEM hehehehe
Well if this tournament is anything to go off of, the Europeans have gotten bodied in pretty much all of the mirrors with the notable exception of HeroMarine vs Maru which is going to stand probably as one of the more surprising upsets of the week. Not surprising really since it's Maru, he's due to drop a series he shouldn't once per tournament.
Yeah but I'm stuck in 2018-2019 mindset where ZvZ = autowin for Serral :>
On February 11 2023 04:54 Seacow wrote: I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
then serral goes 0-2 vs zergs in IEM hehehehe
Well if this tournament is anything to go off of, the Europeans have gotten bodied in pretty much all of the mirrors with the notable exception of HeroMarine vs Maru which is going to stand probably as one of the more surprising upsets of the week. Not surprising really since it's Maru, he's due to drop a series he shouldn't once per tournament.
"All the mirrors" is putting a lot on the shoulders of Showtime, I feel .
On February 11 2023 04:54 Seacow wrote: I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
then serral goes 0-2 vs zergs in IEM hehehehe
Surprising that they don't. Foreigner land is pretty much zerg land.
So if DRG, Solar and herO all win, that mean Serral life in the tournament would depend on how much herO and Solar want to throw their games tomorrow against Special and DRG.
On February 11 2023 04:54 Seacow wrote: I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
then serral goes 0-2 vs zergs in IEM hehehehe
Well if this tournament is anything to go off of, the Europeans have gotten bodied in pretty much all of the mirrors with the notable exception of HeroMarine vs Maru which is going to stand probably as one of the more surprising upsets of the week. Not surprising really since it's Maru, he's due to drop a series he shouldn't once per tournament.
"All the mirrors" is putting a lot on the shoulders of Showtime, I feel .
Clem too. I also counted Astrea in there too but I probably shouldn't.
Serral has dropped his fair share of ZvZ in the past so it's not THAT surprising (but still surprising, obviously).
Like he went 0-2 1-2 vs DRG in DH Last Chance to get eliminated in the groups, he's dropped BO5 to Elazer in TSL, BO5 to Lambo in DH EU, etc.
He's definitely top-tier in the match-up, but there hasn't been unbeatable ZvZ toptier since like Nestea. TvT-Maru is probably the only transcendent mirror player in the modern era.
Special's playing an amazing tournament so far, first time in a while he's impressed me. Him making the ro12 would be a good story, but beating Solar or herO will be tough.
What's going through my mind right now is, what if Serral is knocked out, what does Reynor think? he keeps saying how he's gunning for Serral in every big tournament but what if he doesn't even make it out of the group stages?
It's possible that might deflate Reynor's energy, that's something that can happen with competitors when their rival gets knocked out.
Something to consider, but I just find it hard to believe that we'll have a defending champ, Serral no less not playing in the playoffs tomorrow.
On February 11 2023 05:07 dysenterymd wrote: Special's playing an amazing tournament so far, first time in a while he's impressed me. Him making the ro12 would be a good story, but beating Solar or herO will be tough.
A tournament with only 2 Protoss remaining is good for him. That's his weak match up. If he can dodge Dark, herO, Maru and Reynor in the playoffs he might be able to go even further.
On February 11 2023 05:02 Waxangel wrote: Serral has dropped his fair share of ZvZ in the past so it's not THAT surprising (but still surprising, obviously).
Like he went 0-2 1-2 vs DRG in DH Last Chance to get eliminated in the groups, he's dropped BO5 to Elazer in TSL, BO5 to Lambo in DH EU, etc.
He's definitely top-tier in the match-up, but there hasn't been unbeatable ZvZ toptier since like Nestea. TvT-Maru is probably the only transcendent mirror player in the modern era.
Why did Special move out? He was defending so well, he had the Raven to keep tabs and knew Solar was still on super low econ. Yet he moved out with a small force and got wrecked.
On February 11 2023 04:54 Seacow wrote: I remember when ZG interviewed players before kato, and Lambo was talking about zvz in new patch. He said something like "noone in EU practices zvz, if I ask joona for practice he just laughs at me"
then serral goes 0-2 vs zergs in IEM hehehehe
Well if this tournament is anything to go off of, the Europeans have gotten bodied in pretty much all of the mirrors with the notable exception of HeroMarine vs Maru which is going to stand probably as one of the more surprising upsets of the week. Not surprising really since it's Maru, he's due to drop a series he shouldn't once per tournament.
Yeah but I'm stuck in 2018-2019 mindset where ZvZ = autowin for Serral :>
Only 2018. In 2019, Serral was eliminated by soO in IEM and Reynor in a ton of other stuff including Blizzcon.
On February 11 2023 05:30 tlnetuser108 wrote: Just saw the results on Liquipedia. How do all these low EPT ranking Zergs keep beating Serral? Makes no sense
On February 11 2023 05:30 tlnetuser108 wrote: Just saw the results on Liquipedia. How do all these low EPT ranking Zergs keep beating Serral? Makes no sense
Their EPT would be a lot higher if they weren't forced to play in Korea.
On February 11 2023 05:30 tlnetuser108 wrote: Just saw the results on Liquipedia. How do all these low EPT ranking Zergs keep beating Serral? Makes no sense
On February 11 2023 05:30 tlnetuser108 wrote: Just saw the results on Liquipedia. How do all these low EPT ranking Zergs keep beating Serral? Makes no sense
The Poland-Finland time difference tripled since last year, very unfair to Serral.
On February 11 2023 05:30 tlnetuser108 wrote: Just saw the results on Liquipedia. How do all these low EPT ranking Zergs keep beating Serral? Makes no sense
The Poland-Finland time difference tripled since last year, very unfair to Serral.
On February 11 2023 05:50 Argonauta wrote: Solar keep eating mines to the face all game long, there were like 12 big wm hits in the last game alone
Solar was always like that. The reason I didn't like his playstyle in late macro games so much because he carelessly lost his lings to widow mines many many times, losingto nuke. I think his habit can't change.
On February 11 2023 05:50 Argonauta wrote: Solar keep eating mines to the face all game long, there were like 12 big wm hits in the last game alone
Solar was always like that. The reason I didn't like his playstyle in late macro games so much because he carelessly lost his lings to widow mines many many times.
In fact, if Serral beats herO, it'll be Serral doing Special a solid, as Special will have it entirely in his own hands to top the group and go straight to the Ro8!
If herO wins vs Serral, which looks pretty possible now - all it takes for Serral to drop out is a Solar's win vs DRG which is not that hard to imagine. I'd say Serral has ~50% chance to be eliminated now.
huge match incoming - you gotta figure serral will be throwing everything he has at hero, but i wonder if we'll see any interesting strategies coming out of hero given his standing in the group
Intellectually, I know Hero's actually been doing great and the entire PvZ matchup is vastly better than it was back in Queen Walk Days, but you can't just ask me who's going to win a high stakes PvZ and expect me to rely on Protoss. Trauma doesn't heal that quick.
If Serral wins this 2-0, I'd still peg him as my favourite to win the tourney. Major gut-check upcoming. I could see him getting bopped, too. Such a toss-up.
On February 11 2023 06:11 Gescom wrote: If Serral wins this 2-0, I'd still peg him as my favourite to win the tourney. Major gut-check upcoming.
I wouldn't, I can't imagine Serral winning without beating Dark or Reynor (maybe both.) Sure Serral could go clutch in the playoffs, but I wouldn't bet on it.
If Serrals wins 2-0 I would favour him over any non-Zerg though.
On February 11 2023 06:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Serral's Drone count is still unexpectedly low. Something might happen? But still. No faith in Gateway trash.
He was forced to make a lot of units early to deal with the glaive adept pressure instead of being able to drone.
"Killer instinct" is right with 2/2 finished - no way he wins if he sits back and lets hero resupply his army.
On February 11 2023 06:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Serral's Drone count is still unexpectedly low. Something might happen? But still. No faith in Gateway trash.
He was forced to make a lot of units early to deal with the glaive adept pressure instead of being able to drone.
"Killer instinct" is right with 2/2 finished - no way he wins if he sits back and lets hero resupply his army.
Oh, I agree, I was just looking for any hope of Hero winning.
On February 11 2023 06:32 royalroadweed wrote: Maybe committing the shades was a mistake. Hero lost a lot of tempo and map control after he traded them for lings.
Yeah, I was really confused by that choice. Imagine he goes into his follow-up push with those extra adepts and no lull in the pressure.
On February 11 2023 06:33 Zaros wrote: Seemed fairly equal to me, Serral had the strategic edge, maybe hero slightly better mechanical play.
Serral made all of the correct decisions to stave off pressure and deal the killing blow.
If hero pulled the trigger on an earlier shade he might have had better luck, serral was supply blocked with around 2 roaches out right around the time glaives finished.
If herO was an anime character he'd literally have strategies called "herO style #1," "herO style #2," and also a hidden "herO style #0" he brings out when he has to fight an extra hard opponent toward the end of the story arc
ok I guess this is just saito from rurouni kenshin now that I think about it
On February 11 2023 06:11 Gescom wrote: If Serral wins this 2-0, I'd still peg him as my favourite to win the tourney. Major gut-check upcoming. I could see him getting bopped, too. Such a toss-up.
On February 11 2023 06:43 QOGQOG wrote: I tricked myself into thinking this tournament might be fun despite the patch, but that series really proved me wrong.
On February 11 2023 06:43 QOGQOG wrote: I tricked myself into thinking this tournament might be fun despite the patch, but that series really proved me wrong.
TvT has been fun at least.
That's fair. Maybe if there's another good series of it I'll catch that. Just not really up for having my hopes of a non Z champ crushed by one spell and a baneling attack move.
I feel like herO didnt show his strongest build in that game, the 3 Oracle into Robo is just a way preditcable style unless you hit Zerg hard and quick as you can, like Trap use to do when he won all those Premiere tournament in 2020.
On February 11 2023 06:44 [Phantom] wrote: I'll just say the biggest conspiracy/lie in sc2 is making everyone believe Protoss is the a+click race, when zerg is.
Truly outstanding display of skill by hero. Shame about the bad decision with the adepts in game 1 and the bad engage in game 2.
Sc2 must be quite the anti-climatic chore for you.
On February 11 2023 06:44 [Phantom] wrote: I'll just say the biggest conspiracy/lie in sc2 is making everyone believe Protoss is the a+click race, when zerg is.
Truly outstanding display of skill by hero. Shame about the bad decision with the adepts in game 1 and the bad engage in game 2.
Literally everyone thinks of Zerg has the a-move race what are you talking about? Zerg macro is harder and you have to play reactively which puts you at a disadvantage in RTS. The game is balanced, relax
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
serral's decision making and scouting won him both those games. y'all need to relax, it's been barely one tournament.
I do think Serral has better ZvP than those three players, but herO running out of builds is a real concern, and herO will almost certainly have to beat Dark and/or Reynor to win the tournament.
On February 11 2023 06:43 royalroadweed wrote: I wonder what herO practice games look like if he thinks colossus play is good vs roach viper.
He was a few seconds too late. If that had hit a few seconds earlier, the abducts wouldn't be ready and he'd probably win the battle. As is, he lost one Colossus immediately and had to yoink the other back with his warp prism. He was also fighting uphill into a choke with Serral's roaches having a better arch. Slightly better positioning and hitting a few seconds earlier would have made that the killing blow he intended...
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
On February 11 2023 06:43 royalroadweed wrote: I wonder what herO practice games look like if he thinks colossus play is good vs roach viper.
He was a few seconds too late. If that had hit a few seconds earlier, the abducts wouldn't be ready and he'd probably win the battle. As is, he lost one Colossus immediately and had to yoink the other back with his warp prism. He was also fighting uphill into a choke with Serral's roaches having a better arch. Slightly better positioning and hitting a few seconds earlier would have made that the killing blow he intended...
I think Serral would still be good even at 20sec delay on Viper Abduct, his preparation was perfect. I wonder if herO should just make another Prism and 4-5 Disruptor instead of the more expensive/time consuming Colossi.
On February 11 2023 06:46 Charoisaur wrote: Still none of the top Zergs lost a series to a non-Zerg. Last Katowice it stayed like this the entire tournament, unlikely it happens this tournament
The Group D Terrans need to be unleashed, because the Group A Terrans are underperforming right now. Creator-Reynor tomorrow will be interesting tomorrow morning.
But Special beating Solar absolutely counts. Solar just won the Super Tournament! Come on! :D
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
Even if Serral 2-1's and Solar 2-0's Serral still probably advances, since if Special loses he drops below Serral in map score.
serral's decision making and scouting won him both those games. y'all need to relax, it's been barely one tournament.
Viewed differently, serral lost to two players substantially worse than hero (drg and solar) who just so happened to play the same race as serral. Also telling people to calm down because "it been barely one tournament" is a pretty bad take. You can argue the game is balanced all you want, but historically if the game is imbalanced, the imbalance doesn't magically disappear as more tournaments are played on the same maps/patch. This isn't sc bw
On February 11 2023 06:43 royalroadweed wrote: I wonder what herO practice games look like if he thinks colossus play is good vs roach viper.
He was a few seconds too late. If that had hit a few seconds earlier, the abducts wouldn't be ready and he'd probably win the battle. As is, he lost one Colossus immediately and had to yoink the other back with his warp prism. He was also fighting uphill into a choke with Serral's roaches having a better arch. Slightly better positioning and hitting a few seconds earlier would have made that the killing blow he intended...
Oh, and his Oracles got literally nothing done.
this was my read on the end of that game as well. serral's concave was ridiculous.
Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4.
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
Even if Serral 2-1's and Solar 2-0's Serral still probably advances, since if Special loses he drops below Serral in map score.
Ah true true forgot serral already 2-2 now
So drg needs to 2-0 and needs elazer to win 2-1. If both win 2-0 it's drg. If solar and elazer win by any margin solar is through. If serral wins 2-0 he's always through.
I think if serral solar win special is out unless he beats hero
Having groups play out over two days is a cool change, but splitting it over three days is too much. Also the ro12 is on the same day as the last bo3 of the group stages, which means players won't have as much prep time for the ro12.
Group D would be interesting, because they play last tomorrow, meaning they know the ranking from the other 3 groups. Say if Ragnarok beat Oliveira, Creator beat Reynor and somehow Special beat herO? I would rather be a 2nd in the group then 1st place
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
Even if Serral 2-1's and Solar 2-0's Serral still probably advances, since if Special loses he drops below Serral in map score.
Honestly, Serral losing to Elazer is totally possible. Serral's ZvZ has been awful this tournament, and Elazer has shown he can get it done in knock-out games...
On February 11 2023 06:51 Zaros wrote: Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4.
Just because the units that were changed weren't used doesn't mean the changes didn't have an effect. The disruptor nerf + Hydra buff are very likely the reason herO feels forced into colossi play.
On February 11 2023 06:51 Zaros wrote: Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4.
On February 11 2023 06:51 Zaros wrote: Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4.
and herO is the best PvZ player in the world
Kinda moot point when the second-best PvZ player in the world is so far behind him that he could have lost to all the Z players in his group and STILL be leagues ahead of the rest...
If I'm calculating correctly, Serral is guaranteed to advance if he wins, even with a 2-1: if Special loses, he has worse map score than Serral, if he wins 2-0, herO has worse map score. If Solar wins 2-0, Special 2-1, there's a 3-way tie between herO, Serral and Solar both on matches and map score. They're all 1-1 against each other but Serral has the better internal map score (3-2 vs. herO 2-2, Solar 2-3).
On the other hand, there still is a scenario where Serral loses 0-2, DRG wins 1-2 and Serral ends up in last place. In fact, the only way Serral loses and still advances is if he goes 1-2 and DRG wins 2-1
It's also possible that herO drops out if he loses 0-2, Serral wins and solar wins 2-0, the group is still completely open
On February 11 2023 07:07 Zzzapper wrote: If I'm calculating correctly, Serral is guaranteed to advance if he wins, even with a 2-1: if Special loses, he has worse map score than Serral, if he wins 2-0, herO has worse map score and if Solar wins 2-0, Special 2-1, there's a 3-way tie between herO, Serral and Solar both on matches and map score. They're all 1-1 against each other but Serral has the better internal map score (3-2 vs. herO 2-2, Solar 2-3).
On the other hand, there still is a scenario where Serral loses 0-2, DRG wins 1-2 and Serral ends up in last place. In fact, the only way Serral loses and still advances is if he goes 1-2 and DRG wins 2-1
It's also possible that herO drops out if he loses 0-2, Serral wins and solar wins 2-0, the group is still completely open
If Special wins 2-1 and Serral wins 2-1, then herO has a better map score. Solar winning 2-0 would then boot Serral out, right? They'd be tied on mapscore with Solar winning the h2h.
On February 11 2023 06:51 Zaros wrote: Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4.
and herO is the best PvZ player in the world
Kinda moot point when the second-best PvZ player in the world is so far behind him that he could have lost to all the Z players in his group and STILL be leagues ahead of the rest...
The state of Protoss is very depressing when you think about it, like who even is the second best Toss in the world? Lots of people would say MaxPax, but I'm not sure you can include someone who only plays online. Then you have Showtime, Creator, Zoun, and Astrea who have all made brilliant runs but never play great for more than two tournaments at a time.
Despite getting eliminated Classic is looking better, hope he continues to improve...
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
Even if Serral 2-1's and Solar 2-0's Serral still probably advances, since if Special loses he drops below Serral in map score.
Honestly, Serral losing to Elazer is totally possible. Serral's ZvZ has been awful this tournament, and Elazer has shown he can get it done in knock-out games...
At this point, I'd say Serral's odds can't be much better than 50/50 against Elazer, who's actually been somewhat dangerous historically in ZVZ (i.e. taking out Dark, Reynor at times when they were monsters in the match-up).
This group is crazy with the amount of scenarios still in play.
On February 11 2023 07:07 Zzzapper wrote: If I'm calculating correctly, Serral is guaranteed to advance if he wins, even with a 2-1: if Special loses, he has worse map score than Serral, if he wins 2-0, herO has worse map score and if Solar wins 2-0, Special 2-1, there's a 3-way tie between herO, Serral and Solar both on matches and map score. They're all 1-1 against each other but Serral has the better internal map score (3-2 vs. herO 2-2, Solar 2-3).
On the other hand, there still is a scenario where Serral loses 0-2, DRG wins 1-2 and Serral ends up in last place. In fact, the only way Serral loses and still advances is if he goes 1-2 and DRG wins 2-1
It's also possible that herO drops out if he loses 0-2, Serral wins and solar wins 2-0, the group is still completely open
If Special wins 2-1 and Serral wins 2-1, then herO has a better map score. Solar winning 2-0 would then boot Serral out, right? They'd be tied on mapscore with Solar winning the h2h.
Serral, herO and Solar would all have 7-5 map scores. So it goes to matches between them which are also tied, and finally to h2h map score which Serral wins on
Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
On February 11 2023 06:44 mpmaley86 wrote: Solar losses & Serral wins or Hero & Serral win for Serral to advance?
Serral 2-0 auto qualifies Serral 2-1 qualifies unless Solar 2-0 DRG and Elazer winning by any amount makes DRG advance unless its 2-1 drg and 2-0 elazer in which case elazer qualifies
Even if Serral 2-1's and Solar 2-0's Serral still probably advances, since if Special loses he drops below Serral in map score.
Honestly, Serral losing to Elazer is totally possible. Serral's ZvZ has been awful this tournament, and Elazer has shown he can get it done in knock-out games...
At this point, I'd say Serral's odds can't be much better than 50/50 against Elazer, who's actually been somewhat dangerous historically in ZVZ (i.e. taking out Dark, Reynor at times when they were monsters in the match-up).
This group is crazy with the amount of scenarios still in play.
I'd never count Elazer out given the upsets he's pulled off in the past but he is 0-14 on maps in their last 7 matches, Granted, that goes back more than 2 years so it's probably not fair to read too much into it. Serral is also 26-4 in matches over their entire history though
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
Hmmm, herO is doing pretty well in tournaments, what do we need to do? Nerf disruptors and super battery. Toss winrates pretty bad so far. And herO makes up a bunch of the PvZ wins
On February 11 2023 06:51 Zaros wrote: Serral is probably the best ZvP player in the world. The balance patch and maps aren’t great but I don’t think it had much effect in this particular series.
Main problem now is Protoss can’t do well outside of Korea and half the good Protoss players are in the military. Hence why we probably have 2 Protoss in ro12 and maybe hero makes it to the top 4.
Just because the units that were changed weren't used doesn't mean the changes didn't have an effect. The disruptor nerf + Hydra buff are very likely the reason herO feels forced into colossi play.
this is what I'm thinking too, cause the colossus stuff just doesn't look stable enough to be your main play style
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
Hmmm, herO is doing pretty well in tournaments, what do we need to do? Nerf disruptors and super battery. Toss winrates pretty bad so far. And herO makes up a bunch of the PvZ wins
Yeah, it's really frustrating. When Zerg wins doing the same thing over and over again the stuff that's getting used less often gets buffed. And then some stuff that was part of that same thing gets buffed too. Meanwhile if Protoss finds something that works it gets nerfed hard with no real compensation.
On February 11 2023 07:07 Zzzapper wrote: If I'm calculating correctly, Serral is guaranteed to advance if he wins, even with a 2-1: if Special loses, he has worse map score than Serral, if he wins 2-0, herO has worse map score and if Solar wins 2-0, Special 2-1, there's a 3-way tie between herO, Serral and Solar both on matches and map score. They're all 1-1 against each other but Serral has the better internal map score (3-2 vs. herO 2-2, Solar 2-3).
On the other hand, there still is a scenario where Serral loses 0-2, DRG wins 1-2 and Serral ends up in last place. In fact, the only way Serral loses and still advances is if he goes 1-2 and DRG wins 2-1
It's also possible that herO drops out if he loses 0-2, Serral wins and solar wins 2-0, the group is still completely open
If Special wins 2-1 and Serral wins 2-1, then herO has a better map score. Solar winning 2-0 would then boot Serral out, right? They'd be tied on mapscore with Solar winning the h2h.
Serral, herO and Solar would all have 7-5 map scores. So it goes to matches between them which are also tied, and finally to h2h map score which Serral wins on
Ahhh, yeah. You're right. I thought herO would still be 1 map ahead, but of course he'd lose 1, and be at +2, same as Serral and Solar.
Honestly, I just feel bad for Special. If Serral had "done his job" and won his ZvZs, losing to herO and Serral and winning against the rest would've been enough to make it out in 3rd place, but Serral choking puts him in a spot where he almost has to beat herO, in a matchup he probably hasn't prepared much, because he reckoned clutching it against the other 3 zergs would be enough to send him through. Now Special losing puts him at 3-2 with a mediocre mapscore. Solar and Serral winning sends him home then, which would be really sad after the low-key stellar performance he has shown in this group.
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
I just hate that banes are viable in PvZ, so disgusting lol
Elazer is out no matter what but he can still get as high as fourth place if he 2-0's Serral.
DRG only advances if he goes 2-0 and Serral loses.
Special gets first place if he wins tomorrow. If he loses, he still advances unless both Solar and Serral win (with any map scores).
Solar most likely advances if he wins. The only way he doesn't do so is if he goes 2-1, with Special winning 2-1 and Serral winning. If he loses, he only advances if he goes 1-2 and Serral loses 0-2.
Serral advances if he wins. Otherwise, he can lose 1-2 if DRG wins 2-1.
HerO advances unless he goes 0-2, Solar 2-0, Serral wins. Fortunately, it is all but certain that we do get 2 protoss in the Ro12. Obviously, he is a huge favorite to advance in first place as well.
So overall, the odds of advancing are herO (almost guaranteed) >> Serral > Solar > Special >>> DRG
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
Solar kept suiciding into widow mines. For what is worth I agree Solar is a better player than special (proving, yet again, my point that not always the better player wins), but special played decently well today and if solar decides to suicide, nothing you can do.
Regarding Serral vs Hero we say a Masterclass of Micro and mechanics by hero, and a+click and adbduct by serral, which obviously has great macro as well but showed lackuster play throughout the day and yesterday.
Hero did make a couple of mistakes, like finishing the shade, and maybe commiting to all in with colossus a little late (if just barely). However I still think the real issue with Prrotoss is that it's the most punishing race. 1 Bad engage means insta lose for protoss much more frequently than for the other races or things like the baneling runbys. Protoss might not be the most mechanically hard race but it's the most easy to lose with. And as long as it keeps relying on big expensive and slow production tech units (which get nerfed on top of that), this will continue to be true.
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
SpeCial didn’t play like an inferior player though, Solar kept suiciding big chunks of units into widow mines, and it still took A LOT of those mistakes for it to allow SpeCial to win. Still, I think herO got forced to go for the colossus due to the disruptor nerf + hydra buff? And the rush to vipers seems to counter this easily, weird patch timing
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
Solar kept suiciding into widow mines. For what is worth I agree Solar is a better player than special (proving, yet again, my point that not always the better player wins), but special played decently well today and if solar decides to suicide, nothing you can do.
Regarding Serral vs Hero we say a Masterclass of Micro and mechanics by hero, and a+click and adbduct by serral, which obviously has great macro as well but showed lackuster play throughout the day and yesterday.
Hero did make a couple of mistakes, like finishing the shade, and maybe commiting to all in with colossus a little late (if just barely). However I still think the real issue with Prrotoss is that it's the most punishing race. 1 Bad engage means insta lose for protoss much more frequently than for the other races or things like the baneling runbys. Protoss might not be the most mechanically hard race but it's the most easy to lose with. And as long as it keeps relying on big expensive and slow production tech units (which get nerfed on top of that), this will continue to be true.
Serral did play well
Why bother writing that last line? Seriously--you obviously don't believe it. In game 1, if Hero simply doesn't let his 3rd base get canceled multiple times, he probably wins with that initial attack. In the second game, his push was too late by 15-20 seconds and scouted multiple times by Serral. Using that series to pretend like Hero played perfectly and reached the pinnacle of starcraft only to be slapped down by balance is a strange take for a well-played, but mostly vanilla series.
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
SpeCial didn’t play like an inferior player though, Solar kept suiciding big chunks of units into widow mines, and it still took A LOT of those mistakes for it to allow SpeCial to win. Still, I think herO got forced to go for the colossus due to the disruptor nerf + hydra buff? And the rush to vipers seems to counter this easily, weird patch timing
yup, and now the protosses will adapt to the knowledge that zerg can quickly tech to hive and come up with a build that exploits cutting corners.
this is how metas develop but like you said, the patch timing sucks
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Protoss was designed poorly from the beginning. Also no one likes banelings and yet removing them and reworking Zerg a little has always been out of the question, for some reason.
I guess once you start poking holes in SC2 design, you see just how many holes there are. It's a bit of a rabbit hole. The game's an absolute gas to watch but there really are quite a few core design flaws.
On February 11 2023 07:47 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to read all the excuses from the Zerg hater’s after Serral stomped herO
But when an inferior player like Special beats Solar the haters stays quiet lol
SpeCial didn’t play like an inferior player though, Solar kept suiciding big chunks of units into widow mines, and it still took A LOT of those mistakes for it to allow SpeCial to win. Still, I think herO got forced to go for the colossus due to the disruptor nerf + hydra buff? And the rush to vipers seems to counter this easily, weird patch timing
Wtf happened and why is everyone calling players inferior
Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote: Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
nah, seeding isn't set yet.
ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals.
On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote: Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
nah, seeding isn't set yet.
ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals.
Kind of crazy how close Group C still is. The only sure thing by the looks of things is that herO is sure to be safe. I don't see a scenario where he drops to 4th in the group. Elazer and DRG need super specific scores to advance with certain players losing. DRG has the tiebreaker over Serral.
Solar has the tie breaker over Serral but has one more loss than Serral does so he needs Serral to lose at least one game to Elazer while cleaning up DRG on his end.
Special needs to not get 2-0'd by herO to keep his spot in the playoffs.
Serral has it the simplest. If he 2-0's Elazer tomorrow he's safe. If he doesn't, there's a chance he drops out. So it's up to Elazer to defy the cabal and wreck the bracket.
On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote: Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
nah, seeding isn't set yet.
ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals.
Will Maru really go 0-2 vs Lambo, though?
Not likely, but he will probably play the most vanilla build possible to hide his TvZ and Lambo might just take advantage of that, say like a Roach all-in or something similar.
On February 11 2023 08:47 Fango wrote: Yeah I think Serral is the favourite to win the trophy again now. The best shot at him losing would have been these day 1 ZvZs. Maybe if herO pulled out his best builds he might have eliminated him today. He's clearly woke up now.
Either way. Serral vs Elazer and DRG vs Solar fighting for 3rd place. And herO vs SpeCial fighting for 1st is a fantastic end to the group,
Shame group D is already written in stone. Makes the round tomorrow feel pointless.
nah, seeding isn't set yet.
ex: maru goes 0-2 and byun goes 2-0. they'd be tied in map difference, but byun would be +1 in map win difference and would advance to quarterfinals.
Will Maru really go 0-2 vs Lambo, though?
Not likely, but he will probably play the most vanilla build possible to hide his TvZ and Lambo might just take advantage of that, say like a Roach all-in or something similar.
A return of the shitty ravager build to shock the world with a 2-0 upset?
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
This is the life of toss against terran too
Make smaller weaker units. Get Stim a move by bio Get distracted a moment. Lose a mineral line to widow mines Make high tech units templet. Gets emp
Just give us toss the “my life for Aiur “ zealots. Not this garbage “we cannot hold” zealot
On February 11 2023 07:15 Tyrrhus wrote: Just feels like the units of Protoss are too cost-inefficiënt, or have too big a drawback like slow high templar speed, colussus getting yoinked or being destroyed by more cost efficiënt air units. It's either surprise your opponent or be killed because the above. I'm a very mediocre player so just theory crafting from my side btw.
Make big tough units: Get abducted and die. Make lots of smaller, weaker units: Get a-moved by banes and die In either case: Get distracted a moment, lose a mineral line to a half dozen banes, and die.
This is the life of toss against terran too
Make smaller weaker units. Get Stim a move by bio Get distracted a moment. Lose a mineral line to widow mines Make high tech units templet. Gets emp
Just give us toss the “my life for Aiur “ zealots. Not this garbage “we cannot hold” zealot
Zealots have looked shitty at the pro level ever since the charge damage nerf. They should get a buff.
If anything, I feel they should buff the Stalker damage through an upgrade in lategame or something. Stalker is one of the most under-powered unit in the mid and late game, their dps is quite pathetic and their total HP/Shield are shit as well. Yet Protoss absolutely need Stalker against Bio-Medivac or Muta without a Stargate opening. Using Stalker to push is like walking on a thin line, a wrong blink and you are dead.
What a terrrible decision by herO. I undertsand that you need to switch it up, but protoss was nerfed into the ground, it has 2 viable strategies and phoenix isn't one of them. Stop making phoenix, I haven't seen a single game where it has worked in the last year.
EPT
IEM Katowice/2023
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