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On June 05 2022 22:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2022 18:00 Charoisaur wrote:On June 05 2022 12:36 QOGQOG wrote:On June 05 2022 11:51 tigera6 wrote:On June 05 2022 10:01 QOGQOG wrote:On June 05 2022 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:On June 05 2022 06:23 WombaT wrote:On June 05 2022 04:54 Nakajin wrote:On June 05 2022 04:17 tigera6 wrote:
Sorry to say, but Clem look outmatched, Reynor just too good at that kind of speed nowadays. You need to slow thing down to play Reynor more evenly, thats why I think HM has a better chance.. I'm sad that Clem may never become "the guy", I really hoped he could have been the heir of Serral and Reynor. It’s incredibly difficult, for Clem to be that guy, and for a time he was nailing it he’s got to play on their level but incredibly aggressively. There’s just innately less room for error in that playstyle than standard Zerg played incredibly well. The only real alternative we’ve seen the last couple of years is how Maru plays when he decides to split a map, and that’s possibly harder again. This isn’t a diss at Serral or Reynor, or a balance whine. They’re unbelievably good, are mechanical monsters and their decision making is almost always spot on. All things being equal, and I think they’re not far off (purely in TvZ), the rock solid defensive player should win out. I haven’t actually checked, so the numbers may be against me but I think Serral and Reynor have gradually got better against Clem since he ascended to his current level. I think the Zerg favored mappool plays a big role in that Coincidentally, every map pool for the last several years has been Zerg favored. Anyway, nice to see a non ZvZ finals coming up, even if it's probably going to be extremely one-sided. But congrats to HM! Making EU unpredictable. Please tell me you are joking, this map pool is by far the worst one in recent years for Terran in TvZ, and even Clem admitted as much during one of his interview that the map pool is negatively impacting his play style. People have been, for years, deflecting any complaint about the strength of Zerg by saying it's a problem with the map pool. At least when they're not doing the mind-meltingly stupid "No, really, all the best players just happen to be Zerg" routine. Is this map pool notably bad? Sure. Maybe. I guess. But a different map pool wouldn't change the results, as evidence by the last several years of map pools changes not changing the results. Eeeeeh on the last mappool Clem was consistently dominating Serral and Reynor so at least for him it's undeniable the maps are the biggest factor Was it that much better a pool for Terrans than this? We haven’t had a bad pool for Zergs in forever, it’s just degrees of how much they suit the race. Things haven’t really gone as I expected. Clem has the high mechanical level and the high risk-high reward style among foreign (and increasingly global) Terrans you kind of need to consistently go toe to toe with Serral and Reynor. And Heromarine has the rock solid, consistent play that’s good enough to beat almost anyone but that ends up running into a brick wall against a Serral/Reynor But its Clem that’s dropped off just a little and HM has bridged the gap (slightly), which is kind of the opposite trajectory I was anticipating. As Clem’s slight drop off has occurred when HM has been more competitive against those two, I dunno I think that points more to Clem struggling to maintain his levels with a super unforgiving style/Serral and Reynor adapting to his play than something purely down to maps. Unless the maps particularly suit how HM approaches the game, which could be a part of it too
I think its a combination, by the end of the last map pool, Clem style already got caught up by the other top Zerg, and I do remember Serral beat Clem convicingly in DH EU Winter last year. And to make matter worse, the new map pool further limit Clem success in the matchup.
While HM style doesnt really depend on the map that much, hes more focused on the timing and all-in push rather than long engagement, and Maru style is about setting up defense and late game army control, Clem does depend more on the map layout (choke-rock-high ground, ect.) to set up his fighting position near Zerg base, forcing them to trade continuously and lose units over time.
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On June 05 2022 22:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2022 18:00 Charoisaur wrote:On June 05 2022 12:36 QOGQOG wrote:On June 05 2022 11:51 tigera6 wrote:On June 05 2022 10:01 QOGQOG wrote:On June 05 2022 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:On June 05 2022 06:23 WombaT wrote:On June 05 2022 04:54 Nakajin wrote:On June 05 2022 04:17 tigera6 wrote:
Sorry to say, but Clem look outmatched, Reynor just too good at that kind of speed nowadays. You need to slow thing down to play Reynor more evenly, thats why I think HM has a better chance.. I'm sad that Clem may never become "the guy", I really hoped he could have been the heir of Serral and Reynor. It’s incredibly difficult, for Clem to be that guy, and for a time he was nailing it he’s got to play on their level but incredibly aggressively. There’s just innately less room for error in that playstyle than standard Zerg played incredibly well. The only real alternative we’ve seen the last couple of years is how Maru plays when he decides to split a map, and that’s possibly harder again. This isn’t a diss at Serral or Reynor, or a balance whine. They’re unbelievably good, are mechanical monsters and their decision making is almost always spot on. All things being equal, and I think they’re not far off (purely in TvZ), the rock solid defensive player should win out. I haven’t actually checked, so the numbers may be against me but I think Serral and Reynor have gradually got better against Clem since he ascended to his current level. I think the Zerg favored mappool plays a big role in that Coincidentally, every map pool for the last several years has been Zerg favored. Anyway, nice to see a non ZvZ finals coming up, even if it's probably going to be extremely one-sided. But congrats to HM! Making EU unpredictable. Please tell me you are joking, this map pool is by far the worst one in recent years for Terran in TvZ, and even Clem admitted as much during one of his interview that the map pool is negatively impacting his play style. People have been, for years, deflecting any complaint about the strength of Zerg by saying it's a problem with the map pool. At least when they're not doing the mind-meltingly stupid "No, really, all the best players just happen to be Zerg" routine. Is this map pool notably bad? Sure. Maybe. I guess. But a different map pool wouldn't change the results, as evidence by the last several years of map pools changes not changing the results. Eeeeeh on the last mappool Clem was consistently dominating Serral and Reynor so at least for him it's undeniable the maps are the biggest factor Was it that much better a pool for Terrans than this? We haven’t had a bad pool for Zergs in forever, it’s just degrees of how much they suit the race. Things haven’t really gone as I expected. Clem has the high mechanical level and the high risk-high reward style among foreign (and increasingly global) Terrans you kind of need to consistently go toe to toe with Serral and Reynor. And Heromarine has the rock solid, consistent play that’s good enough to beat almost anyone but that ends up running into a brick wall against a Serral/Reynor But its Clem that’s dropped off just a little and HM has bridged the gap (slightly), which is kind of the opposite trajectory I was anticipating. As Clem’s slight drop off has occurred when HM has been more competitive against those two, I dunno I think that points more to Clem struggling to maintain his levels with a super unforgiving style/Serral and Reynor adapting to his play than something purely down to maps. Unless the maps particularly suit how HM approaches the game, which could be a part of it too
Hardwire, Glittering Ashes, and Blackburn are significantly Zerg favored, and then there's....whatever Pride of Altaris is. This map pool is egregiously bad, but apparently a level playing field is too much to ask for, since ESL hasn't gotten off their asses to get it changed either.
I'm pretty sure Clem has said that the maps are difficult for him, and I'm inclined to take his word for it.
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Clem being down 15-20 army supply because of the workers count was killing him in any frontal fight. Maybe if Clem just give up the Viking count completely and gone with mass Ravens and more Marine-Tanks then he could have worked the comeback.
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I'm literally lolling at Gabe accidently sending his CC across the map. I've been watching SC2 since the beginning and I've never seen that hahaha
Someone in chat typed "planetary fortress rush?"
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What kind of strategy will Clem against Reynor this time? Don't just use the similar strategy like Banshees opener again as it is predictable.
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Why is Pride of Altaris still in the map pool?
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Whelp, that somehow felt not close at all... Could be a quick final!
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Clem on 3 base vs Reynor on 5 including the Gold, like what the actual F is this with Pride. ESL you gotta FIX IT, QUICK.
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On June 06 2022 03:47 patermatrix wrote:
Whelp, that somehow felt not close at all... Could be a quick one!
Didn't feel close at any point  . Map sucks but it also seems like Z is just way too strong at the absolute top level.
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On June 06 2022 03:47 swarminfestor wrote:
Why is Pride of Altaris still in the map pool?
Either ESL and the balance comittee are too lazy to review the new map pool, or there is an underlying issue that Zerg players need more help.
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On June 06 2022 03:47 swarminfestor wrote:
Why is Pride of Altaris still in the map pool?
It shouldn't be. I think ESL is slow because we are not used to some ladder maps being so bad that tournament organizers need to intervene, but that's exactly what Pride is.
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I wonder which win felt more free for Reynor, the one he got being in the upper bracket or the one he got playing Pride of Altaris
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On June 06 2022 03:50 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2022 03:47 swarminfestor wrote:
Why is Pride of Altaris still in the map pool? It shouldn't be. I think ESL is slow because we are not used to some ladder maps being so bad that tournament organizers need to intervene, but that's exactly what Pride is.
It was unfair when thinking that Reynor has already got one map advantage, which just 6 maps remaining. Clem should have veto that map right? Then, it should not be in the map pool for the final matches.
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Clem landed the 3rd CC and creep are 2 screen away, nice Zerg game.
Edit: And 100 Drones.
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On June 06 2022 04:00 tigera6 wrote:
Clem landed the 3rd CC and creep are 2 screen away, nice Zerg game.
Edit: And 100 Drones.
Clem does it! I don't know how but he did!
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I only watch a few games every few months nowadays, but man I'm so glad to finally have a foreign terran that can be so solid and compared to what we've always seen before, consistent. And he's European ! And he's French ! Fuck yeah !
Every time i end up watching Clem vs Reynor or Clem vs Serral, those are absolute bangers
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I need an explanation for Reynor's decision to make 27 lurkers only supported by 30 lings against a terran that has 22 ghosts
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Clem making it more exciting with the last push
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EPT
