EPTDreamHack Masters: Valencia 2022 - Regionals - Page 10
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On June 05 2022 04:17 tigera6 wrote: Sorry to say, but Clem look outmatched, Reynor just too good at that kind of speed nowadays. You need to slow thing down to play Reynor more evenly, thats why I think HM has a better chance.. I'm sad that Clem may never become "the guy", I really hoped he could have been the heir of Serral and Reynor. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24214 Posts
On June 05 2022 04:54 Nakajin wrote: I'm sad that Clem may never become "the guy", I really hoped he could have been the heir of Serral and Reynor. you just imprinted the image of Serral and Reynor as the end boss of IWBTG in my head. Thanks, I shall probably never be able to erase it from my mind. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On June 05 2022 05:10 [PkF] Wire wrote: you just imprinted the image of Serral and Reynor as the end boss of IWBTG in my head. Thanks, I shall probably never be able to erase it from my mind. My pleasure  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On June 05 2022 04:54 Nakajin wrote: I'm sad that Clem may never become "the guy", I really hoped he could have been the heir of Serral and Reynor. It’s incredibly difficult, for Clem to be that guy, and for a time he was nailing it he’s got to play on their level but incredibly aggressively. There’s just innately less room for error in that playstyle than standard Zerg played incredibly well. The only real alternative we’ve seen the last couple of years is how Maru plays when he decides to split a map, and that’s possibly harder again. This isn’t a diss at Serral or Reynor, or a balance whine. They’re unbelievably good, are mechanical monsters and their decision making is almost always spot on. All things being equal, and I think they’re not far off (purely in TvZ), the rock solid defensive player should win out. I haven’t actually checked, so the numbers may be against me but I think Serral and Reynor have gradually got better against Clem since he ascended to his current level. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15982 Posts
On June 05 2022 06:23 WombaT wrote: It’s incredibly difficult, for Clem to be that guy, and for a time he was nailing it he’s got to play on their level but incredibly aggressively. There’s just innately less room for error in that playstyle than standard Zerg played incredibly well. The only real alternative we’ve seen the last couple of years is how Maru plays when he decides to split a map, and that’s possibly harder again. This isn’t a diss at Serral or Reynor, or a balance whine. They’re unbelievably good, are mechanical monsters and their decision making is almost always spot on. All things being equal, and I think they’re not far off (purely in TvZ), the rock solid defensive player should win out. I haven’t actually checked, so the numbers may be against me but I think Serral and Reynor have gradually got better against Clem since he ascended to his current level. I think the Zerg favored mappool plays a big role in that | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24214 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On June 05 2022 07:07 Charoisaur wrote: I think the Zerg favored mappool plays a big role in that Coincidentally, every map pool for the last several years has been Zerg favored. Anyway, nice to see a non ZvZ finals coming up, even if it's probably going to be extremely one-sided. But congrats to HM! Making EU unpredictable. | ||
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tigera6
3419 Posts
On June 05 2022 10:01 QOGQOG wrote: Coincidentally, every map pool for the last several years has been Zerg favored. Anyway, nice to see a non ZvZ finals coming up, even if it's probably going to be extremely one-sided. But congrats to HM! Making EU unpredictable. Please tell me you are joking, this map pool is by far the worst one in recent years for Terran in TvZ, and even Clem admitted as much during one of his interview that the map pool is negatively impacting his play style. | ||
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tigera6
3419 Posts
On June 05 2022 06:23 WombaT wrote: It’s incredibly difficult, for Clem to be that guy, and for a time he was nailing it he’s got to play on their level but incredibly aggressively. There’s just innately less room for error in that playstyle than standard Zerg played incredibly well. The only real alternative we’ve seen the last couple of years is how Maru plays when he decides to split a map, and that’s possibly harder again. This isn’t a diss at Serral or Reynor, or a balance whine. They’re unbelievably good, are mechanical monsters and their decision making is almost always spot on. All things being equal, and I think they’re not far off (purely in TvZ), the rock solid defensive player should win out. I haven’t actually checked, so the numbers may be against me but I think Serral and Reynor have gradually got better against Clem since he ascended to his current level. It would serve Clem much better, imo, to mix in HM/Cure style with all-in and pressure build, along with Maru style with more defensive style into his own style of TvZ to win more. His build has been the same since a year ago, 3CC with double Banshee and Helions, that is safe but also does not have the element of surprise if your opponent is a top player and get the defense setup properly. I know Clem used to mix in more build but I think it was off his success with the standard build, and try to throw opponent off-guard. Maybe hes saving those for important matches, but I havent seen much of those these days. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On June 05 2022 08:30 [PkF] Wire wrote: W T F ??? I'm confused, what was this comment for? | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On June 05 2022 11:51 tigera6 wrote: Please tell me you are joking, this map pool is by far the worst one in recent years for Terran in TvZ, and even Clem admitted as much during one of his interview that the map pool is negatively impacting his play style. People have been, for years, deflecting any complaint about the strength of Zerg by saying it's a problem with the map pool. At least when they're not doing the mind-meltingly stupid "No, really, all the best players just happen to be Zerg" routine. Is this map pool notably bad? Sure. Maybe. I guess. But a different map pool wouldn't change the results, as evidence by the last several years of map pools changes not changing the results. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24214 Posts
I should have elaborated, sorry : Scarlett’s build in g3 (like a delayed speedling all-in with drones, but the timing looked very off and it got shut down so hard it was rather sad). | ||
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tigera6
3419 Posts
On June 05 2022 12:36 QOGQOG wrote: People have been, for years, deflecting any complaint about the strength of Zerg by saying it's a problem with the map pool. At least when they're not doing the mind-meltingly stupid "No, really, all the best players just happen to be Zerg" routine. Is this map pool notably bad? Sure. Maybe. I guess. But a different map pool wouldn't change the results, as evidence by the last several years of map pools changes not changing the results. Yeah, map pool is not the only issue, but its the easiest one to control and to change, thats why its so DAMN frustrating to see this current pool get passed AND kept for over half a year already. | ||
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tigera6
3419 Posts
On June 05 2022 13:18 swarminfestor wrote: Clem just played poorly compared to his normal standard games, like the match between him and Reynor today. I don't think Clem cannot catch with Reynor/Serral's speed no longer since his domination days or Reynor/Serral just knew how to beat him consistently. I dont think Clem played that poorly, that was his standard game like against every other Zerg, but Reynor and Serral has figured out how to react to it better than before. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15982 Posts
On June 05 2022 12:36 QOGQOG wrote: People have been, for years, deflecting any complaint about the strength of Zerg by saying it's a problem with the map pool. At least when they're not doing the mind-meltingly stupid "No, really, all the best players just happen to be Zerg" routine. Is this map pool notably bad? Sure. Maybe. I guess. But a different map pool wouldn't change the results, as evidence by the last several years of map pools changes not changing the results. Eeeeeh on the last mappool Clem was consistently dominating Serral and Reynor so at least for him it's undeniable the maps are the biggest factor | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4018 Posts
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buzz_bender
445 Posts
On June 05 2022 16:09 tigera6 wrote: I dont think Clem played that poorly, that was his standard game like against every other Zerg, but Reynor and Serral has figured out how to react to it better than before. And we've been on the same map pool for so long! It's still the same map pool as Katowice, and GSL is already starting season 2 tomorrow! This map pool was already in rotation 3-4 months *before* Katowice. It's super frustrating to see nothing has been done about this. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On June 05 2022 18:00 Charoisaur wrote: Eeeeeh on the last mappool Clem was consistently dominating Serral and Reynor so at least for him it's undeniable the maps are the biggest factor Was it that much better a pool for Terrans than this? We haven’t had a bad pool for Zergs in forever, it’s just degrees of how much they suit the race. Things haven’t really gone as I expected. Clem has the high mechanical level and the high risk-high reward style among foreign (and increasingly global) Terrans you kind of need to consistently go toe to toe with Serral and Reynor. And Heromarine has the rock solid, consistent play that’s good enough to beat almost anyone but that ends up running into a brick wall against a Serral/Reynor But its Clem that’s dropped off just a little and HM has bridged the gap (slightly), which is kind of the opposite trajectory I was anticipating. As Clem’s slight drop off has occurred when HM has been more competitive against those two, I dunno I think that points more to Clem struggling to maintain his levels with a super unforgiving style/Serral and Reynor adapting to his play than something purely down to maps. Unless the maps particularly suit how HM approaches the game, which could be a part of it too | ||
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