EPTDH Masters Winter: Season Finals - Page 44
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Calliope
297 Posts
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On November 15 2020 04:34 jpg06051992 wrote: Yea but only the first game is a testament to Lurkers not being the issue here. His reaction to the drop in the fourth was because he sunk huge money and time into units that just don't defend drops well compared to Mutas and couldn't even afford enough lings to make a mobile defense force. The third game is another great example imo, Lurkers which are a late game unit need yet another late game upgrade after seismic spines to be efficient vs T, Clem abused this and struck early before the doom ball could be completed. Lurkers are very efficient when you walk into them unprepared or try to stand there and muscle them down like Clem was doing at the end of the last game where he lost like 45 supply in 8 seconds to the Lurkers, the rest of the game? As I said before, classic response to Hydra play, just drop everywhere. Lurkers aren't a bad unit, but they seem to be unreliable in top level ZvT play against Terrans who know how to deal with the unit comp. Reynor didn't lose the first game because he was going lurkers, he was still on mass lings/banes, the best comp to defend this early pressure. He didn't get outmultitasked in the third game. He just forgot a major upgrad and rightfully lost, that's like losing because you forgot bane speed and then saying that the unit is inefficient as the T know how to deal with them. The fourth game is just an outposition, his army was in the middle of the map, on every other comp he would have lost the fourth and a lot of eco. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On November 15 2020 04:42 Calliope wrote: How is it playing Europe vs North America? Will lag affect the neeb/serral games? There'll be some but it shouldn't be too bad. Neeb lives on the East Coast and plays a lot of European ladder as is. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On November 15 2020 04:44 stilt wrote: Reynor didn't lose the first game because he was going lurkers, he was still on mass lings/banes, the best comp to defend this early pressure. He didn't get outmultitasked in the third game. He just forgot a major upgrad and rightfully lost, that's like losing because you forgot bane speed and then saying that the unit is inefficient as the T know how to deal with them. The fourth game is just an outposition, his army was in the middle of the map, on every other comp he would have lost the fourth and a lot of eco. "Reynor didn't lose the first game because he was going lurkers, he was still on mass lings/banes, the best comp to defend this early pressure." Yes I'm aware, that's why I said that the first game wasn't a Lurker issue? "He didn't get outmultitasked in the third game. He just forgot a major upgrad and rightfully lost, that's like losing because you forgot bane speed and then saying that the unit is inefficient as the T know how to deal with them." I uh, didn't say he got out multitasked? And yes, it's a necessary upgrade to a late game unit that is already a huge time and money sink, you're kind of like agreeing with me even though you aren't here lol The fourth game Reynor was just kind of making alot of mistakes, but his macro lead was large in the mid game after he fended off the first push. Instead of maxing out and ending the game with overwhelming numbers, he gave Clem a chance to take good positional fights while he was aggressively teching to things that just flat out don't defend drops here. You don't have to sit here and convince me that Lurkers are good my man, they are great, but against top level Terrans the strategy seems to be getting figured out which is just the norm with SC. As I've said already, Hydras used to be all the rage until Terrans figured out that medivac play is great against them. Here we are, years after the Hydra fad fizzled out, with Lurkers coming into the spotlight and what are Terrrans doing? They are going back to basics, drop drop drop drop drop. Which honestly is something that I love about this game, you can come up with all the fancy play you want but sometimes just crushing your opponents with overwhelming ling/bling is superior, or utilizing tried and true methods like the Maru, "Drop everywhere at once and kill them". | ||
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yubo56
690 Posts
On November 15 2020 04:57 jpg06051992 wrote: "Reynor didn't lose the first game because he was going lurkers, he was still on mass lings/banes, the best comp to defend this early pressure." Yes I'm aware, that's why I said that the first game wasn't a Lurker issue? "He didn't get outmultitasked in the third game. He just forgot a major upgrad and rightfully lost, that's like losing because you forgot bane speed and then saying that the unit is inefficient as the T know how to deal with them." I uh, didn't say he got out multitasked? And yes, it's a necessary upgrade to a late game unit that is already a huge time and money sink, you're kind of like agreeing with me even though you aren't here lol The fourth game Reynor was just kind of making alot of mistakes, but his macro lead was large in the mid game after he fended off the first push. Instead of maxing out and ending the game with overwhelming numbers, he gave Clem a chance to take good positional fights while he was aggressively teching to things that just flat out don't defend drops here. You don't have to sit here and convince me that Lurkers are good my man, they are great, but against top level Terrans the strategy seems to be getting figured out which is just the norm with SC. As I've said already, Hydras used to be all the rage until Terrans figured out that medivac play is great against them. Here we are, years after the Hydra fad fizzled out, with Lurkers coming into the spotlight and what are Terrrans doing? They are going back to basics, drop drop drop drop drop. Which honestly is something that I love about this game, you can come up with all the fancy play you want but sometimes just crushing your opponents with overwhelming ling/bling is superior, or utilizing tried and true methods like the Maru, "Drop everywhere at once and kill them". I mean, I don't think it's "back to the basics" so much as just lurkers being siege units and being less mobile. If drops work against hydra play, they'll work even better vs lurker play generally (since it's a slower style). Another thing to consider is that lurker play is still evolving. For instance, naively, you expect that lurker players can stay on a lower drone count, since their straight up trades should be better, but they have to split their army more b/c the army is less mobile, which means you need more army supply. I don't really see that happening yet. It's probably a pretty awkward transition to go from a high drone ling bane style into one with much fewer drones, maybe some static D to tank shots could work? Idk, I don't think it's 100% explored. It's certainly true that high tech playstyles always look a lot worse when they're punished though, since they're often more positional, so if you get out positioned the entire comp just kinda falls flat. I don't know if it's time to give up on lurker play yet, but it's hard for lurker play to lose without the comp looking bad (getting out multitasked, getting out positioned). The same can't be said of like, mass ling bane comps, where the margin for error is a bit larger due to mobility, at the cost of efficiency. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26751 Posts
On November 15 2020 05:02 yubo56 wrote: I mean, I don't think it's "back to the basics" so much as just lurkers being siege units and being less mobile. If drops work against hydra play, they'll work even better vs lurker play generally (since it's a slower style). Another thing to consider is that lurker play is still evolving. For instance, naively, you expect that lurker players can stay on a lower drone count, since their straight up trades should be better, but they have to split their army more b/c the army is less mobile, which means you need more army supply. I don't really see that happening yet. It's probably a pretty awkward transition to go from a high drone ling bane style into one with much fewer drones, maybe some static D to tank shots could work? Idk, I don't think it's 100% explored. It's certainly true that high tech playstyles always look a lot worse when they're punished though, since they're often more positional, so if you get out positioned the entire comp just kinda falls flat. I don't know if it's time to give up on lurker play yet, but it's hard for lurker play to lose without the comp looking bad (getting out multitasked, getting out positioned). The same can't be said of like, mass ling bane comps, where the margin for error is a bit larger due to mobility, at the cost of efficiency. I’d agree there’s a smoothing of the transition from really high drone count and trading, even inefficiently thru to a time you have a very efficient comp that can trade very cost effectively. It’s not like that transition hasn’t been mapped out before to different lategame comps by Zergs in the past, but it does feel one area of improvement. Clem exposing the holes in ways other foreign Ts haven’t really managed against Reynor may force him to further optimise his lurker style, quite interesting developments and back and forths lately in TvZ | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On November 15 2020 05:02 yubo56 wrote: I mean, I don't think it's "back to the basics" so much as just lurkers being siege units and being less mobile. If drops work against hydra play, they'll work even better vs lurker play generally (since it's a slower style). Another thing to consider is that lurker play is still evolving. For instance, naively, you expect that lurker players can stay on a lower drone count, since their straight up trades should be better, but they have to split their army more b/c the army is less mobile, which means you need more army supply. I don't really see that happening yet. It's probably a pretty awkward transition to go from a high drone ling bane style into one with much fewer drones, maybe some static D to tank shots could work? Idk, I don't think it's 100% explored. It's certainly true that high tech playstyles always look a lot worse when they're punished though, since they're often more positional, so if you get out positioned the entire comp just kinda falls flat. I don't know if it's time to give up on lurker play yet, but it's hard for lurker play to lose without the comp looking bad (getting out multitasked, getting out positioned). The same can't be said of like, mass ling bane comps, where the margin for error is a bit larger due to mobility, at the cost of efficiency. Really like this response, pretty much agree 100% with you. I do think that pro's sometimes are way too dismissive of static defense when playing these styles. There were times when Reynor was sitting on alot of minerals, perhaps a spore and 2 spines should be propped up when making the lurker switch? Simply to buy you a bit of time on the drops? Or would that harm your economy too much? Or would (like you said) would it be beneficial to sack some drones for the static D to build more army supply? Definitely more to be experimented/optimized with. I think TvZ is shockingly still evolving all these years later, and Terrans just seem to be doing a bit better lately in general. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Stats 4-3 Clem, Serral 4-1 Stats Zerg still master race! | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On November 15 2020 11:11 RKC wrote: Calm down, guys. Stats 4-3 Clem, Serral 4-1 Stats Zerg still master race! Yeah, this looks like a clear Serral win. But what Neeb has been showing so far this tournament, I wouldnt say that a crazy upset is unlikely  | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
Neeb beat Scarlett in both bo5s in the NA tournament, but his loss to TLO basically invalidated any result that came after that  . In any case, Neeb was in such bad form that some people thought he would lose to Scarlett - which wasn't the case in any timeframe between 2017 and only just recently. That speaks volumes of how bad his PvZ looked just a week ago.This should be a clear-cut 3-0 for Serral, unless something incredible happens. I'd love to see Neeb win, though, if only so that half of the LR will be about Neeb's opponents being unmotivated and not taking it seriously | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On November 15 2020 04:57 jpg06051992 wrote: "Reynor didn't lose the first game because he was going lurkers, he was still on mass lings/banes, the best comp to defend this early pressure." Yes I'm aware, that's why I said that the first game wasn't a Lurker issue? "He didn't get outmultitasked in the third game. He just forgot a major upgrad and rightfully lost, that's like losing because you forgot bane speed and then saying that the unit is inefficient as the T know how to deal with them." I uh, didn't say he got out multitasked? And yes, it's a necessary upgrade to a late game unit that is already a huge time and money sink, you're kind of like agreeing with me even though you aren't here lol The fourth game Reynor was just kind of making alot of mistakes, but his macro lead was large in the mid game after he fended off the first push. Instead of maxing out and ending the game with overwhelming numbers, he gave Clem a chance to take good positional fights while he was aggressively teching to things that just flat out don't defend drops here. You don't have to sit here and convince me that Lurkers are good my man, they are great, but against top level Terrans the strategy seems to be getting figured out which is just the norm with SC. As I've said already, Hydras used to be all the rage until Terrans figured out that medivac play is great against them. Here we are, years after the Hydra fad fizzled out, with Lurkers coming into the spotlight and what are Terrrans doing? They are going back to basics, drop drop drop drop drop. Which honestly is something that I love about this game, you can come up with all the fancy play you want but sometimes just crushing your opponents with overwhelming ling/bling is superior, or utilizing tried and true methods like the Maru, "Drop everywhere at once and kill them". No, I am pointing out he didn't lose because of his lurkers strat. Reynor lost because he forgot a major upgrad. No idea why you think I am agreeing with you, you have some serious comprehension problem, you're impliying he didn't have time or money for it but he had, he was even floating because of a lack of larva, you're just doing weak generalities like "money sink, huge time" while he just forgot that thing. Most of your post is full of generalities like "back to the basic, drops drops" or how Terrans magically discovered that drops counter hydras lol, if only it was that simple. Hydras is still largely played by top Z like Serral thanks to the insane defensive ability they provide and their deadly sinergy with vipers. Btw, are you really suggesting that reynor should have maxing out on pure ling/bane against Clem and push off creep with this low tech army on Romanticide, the map with some very good defensive positions ? Oof | ||
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Penev
28527 Posts
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Calliope
297 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33597 Posts
On November 15 2020 23:08 Calliope wrote: Funka heckling Neeb's depressingly empty room. I love how he set up his camera angle to actually highlight how soulless it is | ||
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
On November 15 2020 23:09 Waxangel wrote: I love how he set up his camera angle to actually highlight how soulless it is Still has more soul than those damn koreans | ||
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Penev
28527 Posts
evil wins regardless | ||
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Penev
28527 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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