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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Argonauta wrote: Time to make finals bo9? I think it would be bad for players health, even if 2 more games isn't insane, what if we end up with Dark vs TY 30min macrogames each map ? They are getting older. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:53 Durnuu wrote: ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Regarding the final today: in StarCraft II the opposite of soccer seems to be the case. A good defense might win games and bring you far in many tournaments. It does not win you tournaments though. Stats seems to be in desperate need of a more diverse approach to the game if he aims to be on top again. Otherwise players like Rogue will just keep crushing him, imo. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:23 Swisslink wrote: Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:27 AzAlexZ wrote: Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken". | ||
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Solio1
26 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:45 Solio1 wrote: is Rogue the #1 in earnings right now ? I think so with the total of $870k++ earnings. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:27 AzAlexZ wrote: Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? Honestly if you ignore GSL the picture is very clear: Zerg is the most broken race in the history of the game and has been that way for 3 years. WCS/IEM and Blizzcon(the ''global'' tournaments) haven't seen a non Zerg player win in 3 years | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
 Keep forgetting to use spoiler free embeds and getting spoiled. With the caveat that I feel it’s considerably more pronounced in a Bo5 or a bo7 especially, man Zerg are so flexible and have options, or alternatively Protoss is very inflexible in the matchup. Rogue is a great player and I think we only saw a 6/10 Stats today. Likewise Trap in his finals, didn’t play amazingly either but not train wreck level either and they just got absolutely steamrolled. It’s pretty brutal to watch and this is after Nyduses got toned down and Infestors considerably nerfed too. Hm, think we should just spitball preposterous asymmetric PvZ ideas at this stage. Terrans have EMP, which has other utility but has clear Protoss-specific dimensions. Overall Blizz don’t seem too found of interactions that only occur between two of the game’s races but I think investigating WombaT’s Ridiculous IdeaTM Oracle - New unit ability Creep Eradication Field Active ability. Energy cost - Fuck knows /second. Upon activation a field is generated that totally isn’t a recoloured guardian shield and can eliminate rumours without vision. The rationale behind this change is to enable more gateway ‘sharking’ to control the spread of creep while enabling non-committal or committed aggression that is more smoothly. A Protoss player can open oracles off Stargate and keep them active in a harassment capacity for longer as they don’t need to be withdrawn to grant creep vision. Alternatively Protoss players can free up robotics production for units with more defensive or offensive capability by skipping observers at phases of the game and still being able to clear creep. In theory this doesn’t greatly augment the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit too much either. I mean I am spitballing terrible ideas of course, on the other hand I think the central idea of giving race-specific abilities to try and fix issues with one matchup might be the way to go more often. PvP is in a good spot and PvT isn’t terrible either these days, 2/3 isn’t bad but some of the attempts to fix PvZ might damage the fragile balancing act of those matchups. | ||
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Aesto
44 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:36 Swisslink wrote: Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken". You both have a point. The problem is not the overall PvZ winrate, it is the winrate of top Zergs against top Protoss in Bo5 and Bo7 games. And the reason behind that is the LoTV economy. I doubt they can get around that fundamental problem through unit buffs, because it will either cause problems in TvZ/PvT, or they would have to bite the bullet and introduce lower damage done against shields for multiple Zerg units, which they are understandably reluctant to do. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
With these maps, as long as zerg doesn't get caught off guard (by insane risks from the protoss), the top zergs know how to easily counter pretty much everything. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:23 Swisslink wrote: Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Regarding the final today: in StarCraft II the opposite of soccer seems to be the case. A good defense might win games and bring you far in many tournaments. It does not win you tournaments though. Stats seems to be in desperate need of a more diverse approach to the game if he aims to be on top again. Otherwise players like Rogue will just keep crushing him, imo. I’m unsure what the consensus is here. I don’t think people actually think the matchup is unwinnable, just has a terrible dynamic. One that does stretch to broken levels in bigger series. I’d have to see the stats on it, just going off intuition. My intuition being that PvZ is fine in win rates in overall series. But within that breakdown Bo3 or less will be approaching balanced, Bo5 will see Protoss drop off a bit and Bo7 will see Protoss fall off a cliff. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game. Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. Protoss has been balanced around forcefield before and it never made for good games, no thanks. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:42 Aesto wrote: You both have a point. The problem is not the overall PvZ winrate, it is the winrate of top Zergs against top Protoss in Bo5 and Bo7 games. And the reason behind that is the LoTV economy. I doubt they can get around that fundamental problem through unit buffs, because it will either cause problems in TvZ/PvT, or they would have to bite the bullet and introduce lower damage done against shields for multiple Zerg units, which they are understandably reluctant to do. Here I think we can agree. At the very top, there seems to be an issue in ZvP in very specific situation. Even though the very top serms to roll over Protoss, we still have a kind of even winrate. And this is mainly the case because Protoss does pretty well in shorter series. I have literally no idea how you could fix these issues without fucking one race or the other. ZvP, since the very start, had it‘s design issues that were stupid for both races, yet these design issues never really appeared to influence the overall. I think ar this point it‘d be easier if one race would clearly dominate the other to balance it out. | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
I just think opening stargate automatically puts you at a disadvantage and is easily countered by zerg. I never thought a style like Stats uses could ever beat a zerg like Rogue in a bo7. Look at how Trap has struggled in PvZ until he started using the stalker, sentry, colossus, ruptor unit comp. That's all PartinG and Trap do right now in PvZ and it works. Games 1 and 2 especially were just hard to watch with the way Stats plays. On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game. Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7142 Posts
On August 15 2020 22:00 Morbidius wrote: Protoss has been balanced around forcefield before and it never made for good games, no thanks. Not like it's making good games now | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12375 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:21 AzAlexZ wrote: So far in 2020, the only Protoss who won a Premier tournament, won the tournament because a Top Zerg wasn't present, and that's Neeb from ESL NA. Coincidence? I think not. At this point this isn't even balance whining, just spitting out facts I genuinely believe that Serral consciously plays bad strategies against protoss to lower his map winrate because if he just played his main macro build again and again he'd have something like 95%+ win and the nerfs would come faster. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic627 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I didn't think it would be that much of a one-sided stomp though. Oof. I saw the youtube video was 2:20 and got concerned. Once I realized there was 45 minutes of preshow then it became obvious. My thoughts on the state of PvZ at the pro level are already posted in the latest balance patch thread so I won't post them here. | ||
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