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Mexico2170 Posts
Think this series perfectly exemplify two of the biggest problems of the matchup:
-Stargate openings are useless, that means bye bye one of the only tech tree opening Protoss can do.
-zerg can't be pressured effectively anymore.
You want to pressure zerg to stop them from expanding, but there's no way to do that anymore.
Even if you go adept and kill 4 drones the Zerg is just making 8 behind it, while having a big army of ling/roach and 3 queens, making it impossible to follow up on the harass. Same if you go Oracle.
Zerg players have gotten good, to the point where balance problems are showing. Harass doesn't do good damage anymore as zergs learned how to deal with itand you end up with the Zerg having better economy than you, and better army. Even if the army is equal the Zerg just storms the proofs with the economy. Lotv economy doesn't help either being extremely Zerg favored.
Changing the maps is not an option. Sure you can make expansions harder to defend but that would literally just make it worse for propose and would force them to all-in even more.
Blizzard proposed changes? Nerfing the baneling a little bit and buffing the VR speed? Reading their reasoning they want you to make VR to clear creep and kill overlords? How does that help against the intrinsic problem of the matchup?
Zerg economy needs to be nerfed. But they won't do that so protoss needs to be buffed. Either harass options, or protons army so they are more scary and can kill a greedy Zerg more easily (as right now it's pretty hard in the early/mid).
Want to also buff the VR? Make it's standard stack better vs light, and the ability better vs armored, that would be an interesting interaction. Right now the VR is just a worse flying immortal that's only useful for 10 seconds
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
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On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
From a casual viewer, it's ridiculous watching how a single unit is able to defend frontal pushes, fend off aerial harass, and expand creep spread for map control and increase mobility of units - ALL IN THE EARLY GAME!
It's also ridiculous that a Protoss with 30+ non-worker supply can't even effectively harass and pressure a Zarg with 10+ non-worker supply.
Yes, in short, the Queen is annoying af....
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On August 15 2020 22:30 mikedupp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote:
I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game. But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On August 16 2020 00:55 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
From a casual viewer, it's ridiculous watching how a single unit is able to defend frontal pushes, fend off aerial harass, and expand creep spread for map control and increase mobility of units - ALL IN THE EARLY GAME! It's also ridiculous that a Protoss with 30+ non-worker supply can't even effectively harass and pressure a Zarg with 10+ non-worker supply. Yes, in short, the Queen is annoying af....
its ridiculous usefull af, they should do more nerf to the Queen is the real issue here as you describe.
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On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote:
If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
There.
Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games.
Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss?
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On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
how so? Queen is the most versatile unit in the whole Starcraft 2 history. it needs to be look at.
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On August 16 2020 01:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
It's funny reading some of the suggestions made by players that have no clue how huge impact their suggestions would have.
I don't even like the Queen as a unit, I don't like most of the macro mechanics/units in SC2, but this suggestion is just dumb.
It's like back in the HOTS days hearing the suggestion from Terran players how Banelings should do friendly fire, because Tanks and Widow Mines have it...
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On August 16 2020 01:11 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote:
If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12. There. Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games. Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss?
If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah.
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On August 16 2020 01:35 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:11 temporary1 wrote:On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote:
If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12. There. Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games. Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss? If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah.
It's not the same thing, because Protoss is designed differently. When Protoss are dominant it's always ONE BUILD that is dominant. When Maru was winning his 4 straight titles he was doing it with a variety of styles in a variety of metas.
Protoss only ever usually gets super strong when one super strong build is discovered and EVERYONE starts abusing it. Even when Maru was winning he was the only Terran that was putting up results, foreign Terrans were still being massacred.
Think back to the game's history to all of the periods where Protoss is dominating. It's always on the back of one or TWO at the most super powerful builds in one particular match up.
You can call that a lack of flexibility and bad design if you want, but it's how Protoss is. What Protoss needs is fundamental design changes that means that they don't have to rely on that kind of meta to be successful. Guys like me have been saying this for almost 10 years.
As far as Zerg goes, they get treated by Blizzard differently and I do agree it has a lot to do with how popular they are in the foreign scene. The fact that Infestor/Broodlord was allowed to be dominant for over 6 months last year was extremely frustrating, and the fact that it took them a year to nerf Nydus Worms when it was obvious from even as far back as last year's IEM Katowice in February that they needed to be nerfed.
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My two cents, zerg is by design the most reaction-based race, and right now it has enough tools that it's always the fault of the zerg if he doesn't know that something is coming. This is magnified in PvZ because it's a match-up that relies on compositions more than TvZ does: if your army is good vs their army, you're probably gonna win.
I don't really think any particular unit or comp is the issue, it's the fact that a good zerg is always aware of what's happening long before it has a chance of hurting him significantly, and so he can easily prepare.
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On August 15 2020 21:05 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2020 20:27 AzAlexZ wrote:On August 15 2020 20:23 Swisslink wrote:On August 15 2020 18:53 Durnuu wrote:On August 15 2020 18:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 15 2020 18:45 showstealer1829 wrote:On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote:
Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon? If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes. Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss. I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair. ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? Honestly if you ignore GSL the picture is very clear: Zerg is the most broken race in the history of the game and has been that way for 3 years. WCS/IEM and Blizzcon(the ''global'' tournaments) haven't seen a non Zerg player win in 3 years
Instead of ignoring GSL, just ignore Maru's victories and it still looks really bad for non-zergs lol
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:31 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this. It's funny reading some of the suggestions made by players that have no clue how huge impact their suggestions would have. I don't even like the Queen as a unit, I don't like most of the macro mechanics/units in SC2, but this suggestion is just dumb. It's like back in the HOTS days hearing the suggestion from Terran players how Banelings should do friendly fire, because Tanks and Widow Mines have it...
bro im not suggesting the to be all apply but you can start from one of them so, Queen is broken af.
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United States33705 Posts
sup guys, is Rogue the greatest of all time?
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:30 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote:
Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability.
-Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3
-Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this. how so? Queen is the most versatile unit in the whole Starcraft 2 history. it needs to be look at.
I would rather trash the adept and empower gateway units more effectively. I want protoss to be able to get to the mid game without needing to kill 20 drone cost effectively. I would also make it so carriers can't be grabbed the viper to empower the late game.
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On August 16 2020 01:00 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2020 22:30 mikedupp wrote:On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote:
I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game. But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss.
On August 16 2020 02:33 Waxangel wrote:
sup guys, is Rogue the greatest of all time?
Yes
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Zerg production probably needs to be looked at for late game. Right now I think it's fair to say no race can fight zerg late game. There's like 3-4 things that make it too hard.
I guess that'a design decision. Does Blizzard want the game to be just select your timing attack and the game is decided on that, or do they want to have a stable late game. There's really almost been no extended period of stable late game in the 10 years of SC2 because of this game's design.
If they want to have a stable late game, then they have to figure out a way to not make Zerg more susceptible to timing attacks, but bring the races onto similar footing for late game. Which I frankly don't see them figuring out because no real effort has been done to do this for 10 years.
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On August 16 2020 02:33 Waxangel wrote:
sup guys, is Rogue the greatest of all time?
Obviously. Why should doubt it since his Blizcon win in 2017?
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On August 16 2020 01:46 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:35 JJH777 wrote:On August 16 2020 01:11 temporary1 wrote:On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote:
If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12. There. Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games. Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss? If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah. It's not the same thing, because Protoss is designed differently. When Protoss are dominant it's always ONE BUILD that is dominant. When Maru was winning his 4 straight titles he was doing it with a variety of styles in a variety of metas. Protoss only ever usually gets super strong when one super strong build is discovered and EVERYONE starts abusing it. Even when Maru was winning he was the only Terran that was putting up results, foreign Terrans were still being massacred. Think back to the game's history to all of the periods where Protoss is dominating. It's always on the back of one or TWO at the most super powerful builds in one particular match up. You can call that a lack of flexibility and bad design if you want, but it's how Protoss is. What Protoss needs is fundamental design changes that means that they don't have to rely on that kind of meta to be successful. Guys like me have been saying this for almost 10 years. As far as Zerg goes, they get treated by Blizzard differently and I do agree it has a lot to do with how popular they are in the foreign scene. The fact that Infestor/Broodlord was allowed to be dominant for over 6 months last year was extremely frustrating, and the fact that it took them a year to nerf Nydus Worms when it was obvious from even as far back as last year's IEM Katowice in February that they needed to be nerfed.
I agree much with this. But, in my opinion, this doesn't necessarily have to do with protoss design, but process that is used in balancing.
It really seems to that if/when protosses figure something out, it becomes widely used and gets nerfed. But in the nerfing process, Blizzard usually doesn't just tweak units, they gut them and then in turn give some other unit some disproportionate buff. Then some of the P's learn to use it, and cycle repeats. Now they are buffing Void rays, it seems. VR seems like an unit that should be balanced around, as making it just so good that it isn't either overpowered or useless seems to be difficult job that would prolly require iterations, maybe lots of em.
On the other hand, especially in zvp, zerg often seems to have wide enough advantage in normal games that they don't even have to resort their seemingly overpowered units, like Swarm host. They still have that ace in their sleeves, and even if it isn't used, they may passively affect games (can't open this way / can't pick this map / etc.). Even when protoss was winning tournaments during blink era, it wasn't a horde of non-Koreans taking titles, it was established Korean pros that were contenders and champions even before blink era. I don't remember any high level tournament wins for non-Koreans during that era, and still chats were screaming power of protoss. During I think years of zerg things like Swarm hosts and Broodlords, I don't think the animosity got even close to what protoss saw, even though many SH/BL -era players who won tournaments were non-Korean.
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EPT
