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Nebuchad
Switzerland11800 Posts
The contrast is between, like, Showtime not being ready for a muta switch and Reynor not being ready for a glaive build. Should Showtime have seen that spire? Yeah probably, and he will most of the time, but there is a percentage of games where he won't see it despite his best efforts, I think we're all accepting that this is a thing that can happen. If Reynor loses to a glaive build, today that is just kind of silly. How was he not ready for this to happen? He should have been. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote: https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.png I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. I havent been following super closely for a few years but the best player in a matchup being sub 50% definitely feels like a problem. | ||
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neveranexit
14 Posts
I had to log in for the first time in over 7 years to beg the community and Blizzard to have some sympathy for Protoss. I'm used to Protoss being the weakest race of the three (I've been watching StarCraft since 2007), but I've never felt Protoss feel as powerless as they are now. It's so depressing. The last good memory of competitive StarCraft as a Protoss fan is SoS vs Jaedong in 2013. Am I supposed to be ok with a handful of Super Tournament wins over 5 years? It makes me so sad. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 16 2020 02:35 mikedupp wrote: I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss?If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss. | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
On August 16 2020 12:39 FrkFrJss wrote: I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss? There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction. LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with. | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
On August 16 2020 13:05 LHK wrote: There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction. LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with. edit:doublepost pls remove (should really have coffee before i try to post somewhere rip) | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2704 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote: https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.png I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 16 2020 19:03 DieuCure wrote: This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17742 Posts
On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote: Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. I don't think it's bad. But I do think it's difficult to read much into it, as it is very low sample size. And then those monstrous 10 wins by Serral skew stuff pretty badly. And Serral has been absolutely monstrous in ZvP for a long time now. If you remove those 10 games, then you have 62 wins out of 118 matches played, which is a winrate of 53%, quite in line with the other match-ups. That said, Protoss is on the losing hand on both vT and vZ, and that is a problem. However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Is that due to Protoss being underpowered, or because of Trap, Parting and Stats just not being in top form? I mean... that's kinda the problem here, to decide on what is a representative sample. That image you posted goes with low sample size of the very top players in only the most important matches. Meanwhile Aligulac paints a very different picture, and PvZ looks super balanced and PvT is the worst balanced... in favor of *Protoss*! http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ So yeah, statistics can say whatever you want them to say in this case. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11800 Posts
On August 16 2020 21:05 Acrofales wrote: However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17742 Posts
On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote: Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. But then you aren't claiming that Z has been overpowered for the last year or so, but since 2017... the last time Protoss won the GSL and the year of Neeb. And that's quite a strong claim. Whereas for my position all I need to claim is that Maru and Serral went super sayan in 2018 and regardless of race balance rampaged their respective regions, and somewhat led the way for their entire race's resurgence. Maybe you can make a claim that they did that by finding new tactics and playstyles (or perfecting build orders on styles that already existed) that simply *cannot* be answered by Protoss and they need to be buffed. Alternatively, we need new Protoss blood (Astrea? A returning PartinG?) to do something similar. I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle. Given the state of the ladder, it's clear that only really right at the top Protoss is struggling vs Zerg. A far larger problem is that regardless of balance, the games are utterly unwatchable. Top Protoss players seem strangely out of form, but something needs to be done to bring some balance back at the top. And I really don't think bane damage or void ray speed is that fix. Maybe it's something as simple as increasing ravager cooldown, or maybe it's something more far-reaching to change the economy, like halving Nexus cost and warp-in speed (maybe as a cheap upgrade from the cyber core so you can't just immediately triple expand). | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11800 Posts
On August 16 2020 22:02 Acrofales wrote: But then you aren't claiming that Z has been overpowered for the last year or so, but since 2017... the last time Protoss won the GSL and the year of Neeb. And that's quite a strong claim. Whereas for my position all I need to claim is that Maru and Serral went super sayan in 2018 and regardless of race balance rampaged their respective regions, and somewhat led the way for their entire race's resurgence. Maybe you can make a claim that they did that by finding new tactics and playstyles (or perfecting build orders on styles that already existed) that simply *cannot* be answered by Protoss and they need to be buffed. Alternatively, we need new Protoss blood (Astrea? A returning PartinG?) to do something similar. I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle. Given the state of the ladder, it's clear that only really right at the top Protoss is struggling vs Zerg. A far larger problem is that regardless of balance, the games are utterly unwatchable. Top Protoss players seem strangely out of form, but something needs to be done to bring some balance back at the top. And I really don't think bane damage or void ray speed is that fix. Maybe it's something as simple as increasing ravager cooldown, or maybe it's something more far-reaching to change the economy, like halving Nexus cost and warp-in speed (maybe as a cheap upgrade from the cyber core so you can't just immediately triple expand). You mentioned a few more people than Serral and Maru as elite in the last quote, which is part of what made me react. But everyone is influenced by meta. I have a reaction to saying stuff like "we can remove the wins by Serral because he's Serral", because when you watch Serral play PvZ right now you're watching something really silly where he has a playstyle that is almost guaranteed win and then he makes bad all-ins in non-crucial games seemingly just to lower his map winrate. You end up with a bunch of 3-2 "close" series where absolutely no game is close and absolutely nobody doubts the end result at any point. So yeah, Serral is obviously better than the rest but you should still count his games. Maybe he should be 8-2 or maybe he should be 9-1, I don't really know, but I know he shouldn't be at "10-0 and I'll donate some games because it's that obvious that I'll win at match point." His TvZ winrate is at a healthy place to be for a matchup. Almost 80%, a clear favourite, but he could lose, and I can tell he's trying his hardest in every game. | ||
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LTCM
174 Posts
On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote: Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. 2019 GSL ST Season 1. It's the only proper metric for measuring balance. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2427 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13949 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:31 Bagration wrote: Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn or a 2012 finals or a 2013 finals or a 2014 finals or a - | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12125 Posts
On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote: Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. Well, Stats is in the group, occassionally Zest who has been in some finals(although didn't win that many). It's not that Protoss don't have any, they just don't have that many. While other in other races you can easily name 4 and add one or two more, Protoss has two at best. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23322 Posts
On August 17 2020 05:37 deacon.frost wrote: Well, Stats is in the group, occassionally Zest who has been in some finals(although didn't win that many). It's not that Protoss don't have any, they just don't have that many. While other in other races you can easily name 4 and add one or two more, Protoss has two at best. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. How did you get through a who’s who of top Protoss players without mentioning Trap? I’m livid enough, god help your soul if Gemini reads this :p Parting has at least partially filled herO’s old niche too of doing weird aggression that he pulls off with pure execution. Indeed my argument over not over-reacting to the Protoss dominated Super Tournament in 2019 was precisely that they actually did have a depth of really good players. Since then we have lost Classic and herO, which are big losses for sure. If it was an issue about Protoss lacking truly elite level players they’d be hitting a Ro8 ceiling and getting monstered by the top tier Terrans and Zergs relatively equally. We don’t even have a singular PvZ sniper these days, where basically every top Zerg is scary in ZvP. At the absolute top level you generally have your mirror specialists and your clear top monsters within each race at the interracial matchups. Who’s the scary PvZ player these days? Scary within the Protoss context is a player who’s got a 50/50 shot in a Bo5 and will get pumped in a bo7 | ||
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