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On August 17 2020 05:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:On August 16 2020 21:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote:On August 16 2020 19:03 DieuCure wrote:On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote:https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.pngI think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements.
What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred.
Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight?
Terran - ByuN, Polt GuMigod, Ryung, MMA
Zerg - Life, Hydra, TRUE, viOlet, Snute, ByuL.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 17 2020 04:57 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 07:31 Bagration wrote:On August 16 2020 07:22 Niravroh wrote:On August 16 2020 07:12 Bagration wrote:
Any recommended games to watch? Literally not a single one, if you're interested in good back and forth games. Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn or a 2012 finals or a 2013 finals or a 2014 finals or a -
This finals is definitely worse than any Korean league finals in 2013. Yes, even broodlord vs broodlord is better.
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Haven't read this thread yet but I'm very confused about what happened in this series. It looks like Stats was doing very outdated strats and wasn't with the meta, but he was earlier in the tournament. Did he think he had a read on Rogue from watching replays and then it turns out he was wrong? Is he ready to go into the military and didn't give a damn? Was he making some kind of commentary through his playstyle instead of playing to win? Maybe he has a cold and didn't tell anyone. After understanding this game for a little while (despite being awful myself, i just watched a lot of pro games) there was a period where I didn't understand the game at all, it was too complicated for me, and it seemed like even the commentators didn't understand the game very well either or if they did they weren't explaining it to the audience very well. felt like things were coming around again and I was starting to be able to follow the games again and that they weren't as obtuse anymore but this is a complete mystery to me.
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Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
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One thing I do definitely "get" about what made Rogue successful in this tournament is he was not playing reactive. I haven't been watching every tournament everywhere but in the GSL which I have been watching, Zergs were almost all playing for 4 bases or more and weren't trying to end the game any time earlier than that. Rogue really switched it up with innovative early game rush strats which may have been on the ladder or in other tournaments I haven't seen but hadn't been in the GSL yet. But when it comes to the finals, that wasn't even a part of the finals.
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On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
I agree with this. Part of the problem is that many (though not all) of our Korean narratives used to be centered around "is x the best player in the world?" and that debate, no doubt because the language barrier made it harder for us to relate to Koreans. But winning a GSL doesn't even mean that's true anymore with Reynors and Serral being top 5 players. Also many narratives that perhaps would be fun (Trap or Cure making to the top and finally winning a long-awaited championship) were completely destroyed (didn't they both get 4-0'd in the finals?). There's only so long I can read a "Cure is great online" GSL preview post.
Also, Korea has been the same group of slowly dwindling Koreans for 7 years now, while in Europe we are still seeing new faces every year. The one exception is that it has been fun seeing returners fight against the big boys (DRG, Parting, Dream, etc...)
It would probably be exciting seeing Rogue dominate as much as he does, but his finals are infamously and repeatedly boring .
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On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
Yeah, it sure is exciting flipping a coin to see if Reynor or Serral wins each and every tournament.
Also, the Rogue hate is uncalled for. He did SH/Nydus when it was broken, and was the only Zerg player to actually say it should be nerfed. He has a wide range, as you'll see if you actually watch these finals.
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On August 17 2020 11:47 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8. Yeah, it sure is exciting flipping a coin to see if Reynor or Serral wins each and every tournament. Also, the Rogue hate is uncalled for. He did SH/Nydus when it was broken, and was the only Zerg player to actually say it should be nerfed. He has a wide range, as you'll see if you actually watch these finals.
yeah kinda how I feel about the whole western vs Korean scene, I have no interest in NA because I know none of the players are truly competitive at the top level and EU is just a coin flip between Reynor and Serral every tournament, I just get tired of watching ZvZ even if the matchup has improved a lot
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I think there are plenty of GSL storylines, but the finalists were harder to hype this time. Imagine if the finals had:
DRG - The returning player who suddenly broke through again.
Parting - Winner of the 1st WCS who is returning to old form with unorthodox aggressive builds and godly micro.
TY - The player/commentator who outsmarts his opponents with mastermind planning.
InnoVation - Can he do it another time to try to make a case for that "B" title?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 17 2020 06:34 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 05:37 deacon.frost wrote:On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:On August 16 2020 21:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote:On August 16 2020 19:03 DieuCure wrote:On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote:https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.pngI think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred. Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight? Terran - ByuN, Polt GuMigod, Ryung, MMA Zerg - Life, Hydra, TRUE, viOlet, Snute, ByuL.
You're a donkey crap if anything.
2019:
Classic: 2nd GSL code S S1, 1st GSL ST1
Stats: 1st ROG, 2nd IEM
Trap: 2nd GSL Code S S2, S3
2018:
Stats: 2nd GSL Code S S1, 1st GSL ST1, 2nd GSL vs The World, 2nd Blizzcon
sOs: 2nd IEM PyeongChang, 2nd GSL ST2
Classic: 2nd IEM, 1st GSL ST2
Zest: 2nd GSL Code S S2
For Protoss being murdered they gathered pretty solid list of titles and 2nd places, mostly Classic and Stats. In 2019 Protoss has been in EVERY code S finals. You can't say this for Zerg nor Terran.
Yes, there were not winning much, but they certainy were not massacred as you try to show it. And Classic is a huge loss of a top player.
So the next time, mr. Donkey crap, check the results. And that's just 1st & 2nd place...
Edit > if you didn't miss by point by a mile, I am saying the current Protoss was affected by the CURRENT LOSSES, namely Classic and herO. Not HotS losses, that would be Rain as well and guess what, I didn't name Rain, did I?
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On August 17 2020 15:43 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 06:34 LTCM wrote:On August 17 2020 05:37 deacon.frost wrote:On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote:On August 16 2020 21:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote:On August 16 2020 19:03 DieuCure wrote:On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote:https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.pngI think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred. Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight? Terran - ByuN, Polt GuMigod, Ryung, MMA Zerg - Life, Hydra, TRUE, viOlet, Snute, ByuL. You're a donkey crap if anything. 2019: Classic: 2nd GSL code S S1, 1st GSL ST1 Stats: 1st ROG, 2nd IEM Trap: 2nd GSL Code S S2, S3 2018: Stats: 2nd GSL Code S S1, 1st GSL ST1, 2nd GSL vs The World, 2nd Blizzcon sOs: 2nd IEM PyeongChang, 2nd GSL ST2 Classic: 2nd IEM, 1st GSL ST2 Zest: 2nd GSL Code S S2 For Protoss being murdered they gathered pretty solid list of titles and 2nd places, mostly Classic and Stats. In 2019 Protoss has been in EVERY code S finals. You can't say this for Zerg nor Terran. Yes, there were not winning much, but they certainy were not massacred as you try to show it. And Classic is a huge loss of a top player. So the next time, mr. Donkey crap, check the results. And that's just 1st & 2nd place... Edit > if you didn't miss by point by a mile, I am saying the current Protoss was affected by the CURRENT LOSSES, namely Classic and herO. Not HotS losses, that would be Rain as well and guess what, I didn't name Rain, did I?
"Four entire first places, that's a whopping two per year! Protoss is clearly doing fine."
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France12790 Posts
People are still talking about protoss not doing fine? Lmao... Protoss won more money than terran in 2018, in spite of Maru hard carrying terran race so they don't look super broke. That's hella telling imo, they didn't win WCS / GSL but overall they performed way better than terran, and a bit worse than zerg.
But yeah they don't dominate LotV as hard as zerg, but it's not that protoss has been particularly bad in LotV, more that zerg has been particularly good / broken in LotV.
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On August 17 2020 17:17 Poopi wrote:
People are still talking about protoss not doing fine? Lmao... Protoss won more money than terran in 2018, in spite of Maru hard carrying terran race so they don't look super broke. That's hella telling imo, they didn't win WCS / GSL but overall they performed way better than terran, and a bit worse than zerg.
But yeah they don't dominate LotV as hard as zerg, but it's not that protoss has been particularly bad in LotV, more that zerg has been particularly good / broken in LotV.
"because Protoss was strong years ago, they are allowed to suffer now"
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Northern Ireland25050 Posts
Stats against TY I felt could go either way given build choices and form on the day.
Stats against Rogue even with people quoting Aligulac and saying Stats was the hottest PvZer around, nah I wanted Stats to win but felt Rogue would stomp him.
There isn’t a single scary PvZer on the planet right now either, not a single real terrifying sniper. Best you get is maybe having a 50/50 shot on a good day.
Balance aside in Starcraft you’ve always had players with asymmetric matchup strengths. Some suck at mirrors, some are great at one interracial matchup and not the other.
Who is actually a monster at PvZ these days? Hell failing that whose best matchup is PvZ? Nobody at the top level?
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PvZ is broken. Please fix.
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On August 18 2020 00:54 Wombat_NI wrote:
Stats against TY I felt could go either way given build choices and form on the day.
Stats against Rogue even with people quoting Aligulac and saying Stats was the hottest PvZer around, nah I wanted Stats to win but felt Rogue would stomp him.
There isn’t a single scary PvZer on the planet right now either, not a single real terrifying sniper. Best you get is maybe having a 50/50 shot on a good day.
Balance aside in Starcraft you’ve always had players with asymmetric matchup strengths. Some suck at mirrors, some are great at one interracial matchup and not the other.
Who is actually a monster at PvZ these days? Hell failing that whose best matchup is PvZ? Nobody at the top level?
This is very valid point you're raising here.
I am now for couple of months mostly watching PvZ VODs to find any inspiring, fresh, strong, meta-shifting gameplay from P but with rather poor results.
There was that Zest 4g adept on IEM which needed like couple hours to be crushed by Rogue.
There is also that blink-stalker heavy followup to glaived adepts opening with transition to 2-3 Colossus and push that Trap and PartinG are using and it is probably the only 'new' strategy on the table which might stick a bit longer. However we already saw in GSL S2 finals how it fares if you miss your timing window and don't hit before vipers.
All in all there doesn't seem to be any stable, long term strategy for P in PvZ which gives good results and Zergs knowing that are cutting more and more drones in the midgame with the anticipation of committed pressure/all-in from P so it is even harder to win that way. Also that's why we see mostly roach/ravager based comps with occasional transition to banes if protoss is still alive.
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EPT
