EPTEdit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW.
[GSL 2020] Code S - Grand Finals - Page 20
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW. | ||
|
rayl991
Afghanistan80 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:55 Nebuchad wrote: My two cents, zerg is by design the most reaction-based race, and right now it has enough tools that it's always the fault of the zerg if he doesn't know that something is coming. This is magnified in PvZ because it's a match-up that relies on compositions more than TvZ does: if your army is good vs their army, you're probably gonna win. I don't really think any particular unit or comp is the issue, it's the fact that a good zerg is always aware of what's happening long before it has a chance of hurting him significantly, and so he can easily prepare. This is exactly what is wrong with the ZvX matchup which imo is unbalanced, if Zerg defends the early game pressure without taking too much damage, Zerg wins when it reaches late game. If Terran and Protoss did not pressure and choose to sit back, Zerg will snowball out of control and win late game. T & P are forced to pressure the Zerg early game and must dealt sufficient damage to prevent Zerg from snowballing. Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent | ||
|
Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On August 16 2020 04:14 rayl991 wrote: Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent That's the case for anyone | ||
|
Back2Back
23 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game. Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. This is actually the exact conclusion I came up with as well. Protoss units are more expensive and beefier than any other race but they are also extremely fragile and easy to over-run. This is why they have the Forcefield ability. It allows them to control space a little bit. Protoss does not struggle against Terran because Terran doesn't have a mass produced unit that can nullify this ability (until ghosts which are high tech and expensive). Ravagers allow them to break down those Forcefields too easily. You can change the way that bile interacts with Forcefield which wont affect TvP. | ||
|
TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
| ||
|
mikedupp
233 Posts
On August 16 2020 04:45 Back2Back wrote: This is actually the exact conclusion I came up with as well. Protoss units are more expensive and beefier than any other race but they are also extremely fragile and easy to over-run. This is why they have the Forcefield ability. It allows them to control space a little bit. Protoss does not struggle against Terran because Terran doesn't have a mass produced unit that can nullify this ability (until ghosts which are high tech and expensive). Ravagers allow them to break down those Forcefields too easily. You can change the way that bile interacts with Forcefield which wont affect TvP. Corrosive Bile has a 7 second cooldown. The cooldown is just way too fast I feel like. Making it 9-10 would really help IMO. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16006 Posts
On August 16 2020 04:55 TentativePanda wrote: A Zerg wins GSL and we need to solve “intrinsic balance issues”. Terran wins GSL and we get GOM TvT memes lol Blame 2019. Zerg has been dominating for 3 years now, but 2019 was historically lopsided. And yet even after that many nerfs they're still on top. Just goes to show how broken they were in 2019. People are fed up with it. It's pretty easy to see that. | ||
|
Niravroh
165 Posts
Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Korea standings: Rogue #1 Serral #10 Dark #11 Solar #13 DongRaeGu #14 soO # 15 Reynor #19 Average zerg rank: 11.9 Average terran rank: 7.4 Average protoss rank: 11.3 Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Circuit standings: Serral #1 Reynor #2 Lambo #12 Elazer #14 RiSky #15 Vanya #17 Average zerg rank: 10.2 Average terran rank: 10 Average protoss rank: 11.3 These numbers don't seem to indicate that zerg is disproportionately unbalanced. It's Rogue, Serral, and Reynor winning a bunch of stuff, and then the rest of the zergs floundering way down in the standings. Idk what the solution is, but I would have expected that if zerg was so imba we would see more zergs being generally successful, even if they're not winning championships. | ||
|
Monochromatic
United States989 Posts
On August 16 2020 05:32 Niravroh wrote: I know this is an overused argument, but is it really too far to ask if Zerg is being flattered by higher skilled players? Sure, soO and Dark got some championships last year, but zerg has been nerfed multiple times since then. If we're looking at EPT rankings, then zerg isn't doing particularly well. Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Korea standings: Rogue #1 Serral #10 Dark #11 Solar #13 DongRaeGu #14 soO # 15 Reynor #19 Average zerg rank: 11.9 Average terran rank: 7.4 Average protoss rank: 11.3 Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Circuit standings: Serral #1 Reynor #2 Lambo #12 Elazer #14 RiSky #15 Vanya #17 Average zerg rank: 10.2 Average terran rank: 10 Average protoss rank: 11.3 These numbers don't seem to indicate that zerg is disproportionately unbalanced. It's Rogue, Serral, and Reynor winning a bunch of stuff, and then the rest of the zergs floundering way down in the standings. Idk what the solution is, but I would have expected that if zerg was so imba we would see more zergs being generally successful, even if they're not winning championships. From April 21st, 2019 to June 6th, 2020 there had been a zerg in the final of every premier tournament. Zerg has been incredibly consistent. | ||
|
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3993 Posts
| ||
|
leublix
493 Posts
Stats should have known he can't just play normal and win. He also didn't seem to be totally on point, making small mistakes in the first few games. | ||
Kinky
United States4126 Posts
| ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg/videos If you want to answer, please PM, as I don't want to read this thread before watching the final. Spoilers and all. | ||
|
Cricketer12
United States13949 Posts
On August 16 2020 06:33 Kinky wrote: Stats played some pretty uninspiring openings and Rogue knew how to deal with everything. As much as I was rooting for a close Stats, I can't help but wonder who his practice partners were that made him think these strats were viable against someone of Rogue's caliber. The strats for the most part were fine enough, but the execution was no where near what we normally expect from Stats | ||
|
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
| ||
|
Niravroh
165 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:12 Bagration wrote: Any recommended games to watch? Literally not a single one, if you're interested in good back and forth games. | ||
|
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:22 Niravroh wrote: Literally not a single one, if you're interested in good back and forth games. Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19142 Posts
On August 16 2020 03:24 Anc13nt wrote: Reminds me somewhat of Brood war actually. Hard for protoss to beat zerg in most stages of the game but they are most likely to win with a very a crisp timing attack. If they play a vanilla standard build, they are usually slightly behind against zerg. Difference is that protoss is favoured in BW ultra lategame (not the lategame though) whereas that doesn't seem to be the case in SC2. Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW. Maybe based on stats if you include all maps, but maps play a huge role in balancing BW. Also, it's clear cut why a Protoss lost in BW and there is always a way things could have been done differently. Who has the advantage also oscillates a lot through a 15-20 minute game. You rarely see a game in SC2 where Protoss can lose an advantage and then gain it back. Watching a TvZ in SC2 is the best thing ever. Since WoL the matchup has had tons of back and forth metas.Since LoTV, PvZ just really hasn't ever been that way. I personally loathe thinking either this PvZ will be a blowout or Protoss will have done something magical like Classic vs Dark. | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain17742 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:31 Bagration wrote: Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn I realize I posted in the wrong thread (posted in preview thread and will delete it now). But as I said there, the only thing that made this final better than Nestea vs Inca is that Stats did manage to take a game. If you *have* to watch a game, do game 3, as it at least looks like it might be interesting for a short while. Oh, and I was cheering for Stats, and given the way he played to get here, he deserved to be in the finals, but the finals games were truly 2011 standard GSL final. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland23322 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:35 BisuDagger wrote: Maybe based on stats if you include all maps, but maps play a huge role in balancing BW. Also, it's clear cut why a Protoss lost in BW and there is always a way things could have been done differently. Who has the advantage also oscillates a lot through a 15-20 minute game. You rarely see a game in SC2 where Protoss can lose an advantage and then gain it back. Watching a TvZ in SC2 is the best thing ever. Since WoL the matchup has had tons of back and forth metas.Since LoTV, PvZ just really hasn't ever been that way. I personally loathe thinking either this PvZ will be a blowout or Protoss will have done something magical like Classic vs Dark. PvZ is, if you don’t balance with specific maps to my knowledge more actually imbalanced in BW than it’s been in SC2 Different game of course, and more marginal gains can be forced with brute mechanics over a long period. Granted this is mostly from watching FPVoDs of this Bisu fellow that you may or may not of heard of, but he’s pretty good. Anyway in BW PvZ in theory Protoss is also trying to constrain the Zerg growth. What feels markedly different is that this occurs in multiple phases. You’ve your corsairs, DTs and various shenanigans. Storm drops later on, plus the threat of big frontal attacks as well. As you say, PvZ in SC2 has a few damage phases. The difference seems to be if you miss those windows or the Zerg defends perfectly there you’re kind of boned | ||
| ||
