Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd"
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd"
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
Way to miss the point entirely
What was the point then?
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do!
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
Way to miss the point entirely
What was the point then?
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do!
Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans.
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd"
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
Way to miss the point entirely
What was the point then?
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do!
Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans.
I mean they nerfed champion's advantage at this point well enough that he can't really create a group of death all that well. Best way for him to do that would be to add all the weak players to his group so then the other 3 groups are stacked. Like TY did it
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd"
And Serral: "Mech imba imba imba"
When did serral say that exactly?
Don't remember exactly when, but feel like it was in the summer 2019?
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
Way to miss the point entirely
What was the point then?
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do!
Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans.
I mean they nerfed champion's advantage at this point well enough that he can't really create a group of death all that well. Best way for him to do that would be to add all the weak players to his group so then the other 3 groups are stacked. Like TY did it
Wait have they nerfed the advantage? How has it changed?
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd"
And Serral: "Mech imba imba imba"
When did serral say that exactly?
Don't remember exactly when, but feel like it was in the summer 2019?
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
Way to miss the point entirely
What was the point then?
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do!
Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans.
I mean they nerfed champion's advantage at this point well enough that he can't really create a group of death all that well. Best way for him to do that would be to add all the weak players to his group so then the other 3 groups are stacked. Like TY did it
Wait have they nerfed the advantage? How has it changed?
The champion used to be able to swap 2 players that weren't in their own group. Now all changes need to affect the champion's group.
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend".
Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd"
And Serral: "Mech imba imba imba"
When did serral say that exactly?
Don't remember exactly when, but feel like it was in the summer 2019?
On August 15 2020 17:27 Elentos wrote:
On August 15 2020 17:25 sneakyfox wrote:
On August 15 2020 17:24 Elentos wrote:
On August 15 2020 17:23 sneakyfox wrote:
On August 15 2020 17:22 Elentos wrote:
On August 15 2020 17:21 sneakyfox wrote:
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season.
It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.
Way to miss the point entirely
What was the point then?
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do!
Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans.
I mean they nerfed champion's advantage at this point well enough that he can't really create a group of death all that well. Best way for him to do that would be to add all the weak players to his group so then the other 3 groups are stacked. Like TY did it
Wait have they nerfed the advantage? How has it changed?
The champion used to be able to swap 2 players that weren't in their own group. Now all changes need to affect the champion's group.
Ah okay, so the way it's been a while now. Yeah it's more difficult now, but if Special hadn't rebelled TY could still have made a an (ever stronger) group of death. The champ needs to conspire with his group mates
Games like this remind me why ZvP hurts to watch, Protoss really just feels so flat compared to Zerg. Hope that Stats can bring it back for the series but Rogue looks so good.
Stats mismicroed a lot in that fight, wasted storms to kill banes while he should have picked them up with the phoenices. Also in the previous game he was not on par with his micro, I think it is not his day. With all the displeasure that will bring me, this will be another Rogue win
On August 15 2020 17:46 yht9657 wrote: OK what just happened
Rogue hit a timing and hit him with slow Banes and Hydralisks right before Psionic Storm could come online, and right before Stats started investing in the Gateways he just built.
Dream-killer Rogue working his magic Stats has been a bit off today, and Rogue's play has been exceptional. All the little things like baiting out storm with mutas and contaminating the storm research have been nice touches to make sure his attacks work.
On August 15 2020 18:01 swarminfestor wrote: Fans do not like a villain, that's why they vote Stats.
tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games
Well his first mistake is playing Zerg. And then the second strike is always killing fan favorites in garbage Bo7 matches. Like beating soO in the Blizzcon finals.
Tastosis keep talking about whether Stats is going to play a defensive macro style. It sounds like these guys haven't seen a PvZ in the last two years.
On August 15 2020 18:01 swarminfestor wrote: Fans do not like a villain, that's why they vote Stats.
tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games
He has a history of putting an end to Cinderella stories and beating fan-favorites in dominating fashion Like soO at Blizzcon, and both the returnees DRG and Dream in this very tournament.
On August 15 2020 18:01 swarminfestor wrote: Fans do not like a villain, that's why they vote Stats.
tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games
Well, he is always so dominant during his winning runs and he denied us several Maru vs Serral finals.In addition, he has a gambling propensity that is unique to Jin Air Green Wings (well Cure has this since he joined DPG). And probably the fact that he is quite discreet and doesn't show emotions, which seems to be important for some fans.
On August 15 2020 18:01 swarminfestor wrote: Fans do not like a villain, that's why they vote Stats.
tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games
Well his first mistake is playing Zerg. And then the second strike is always killing fan favorites in garbage Bo7 matches. Like beating soO in the Blizzcon finals.
Scarlett is a true hero for cheesing him out last season of GSL before he can resume his reign of terror. We were spared of the most low-key villainous zerg of the modern era.
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play.
He used to be the signature swarmhost nydus guy, that hasn’t helped.
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play.
Well that's the thing for me, I don't enjoy it very much. Especially not with how Zerg has been for a while now.
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play.
me too, but casters are the ones that make the narratives, and no one finds rogue so appealing I think.
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play.
Well that's the thing for me, I don't enjoy it very much. Especially not with how Zerg has been for a while now.
On August 15 2020 18:01 swarminfestor wrote: Fans do not like a villain, that's why they vote Stats.
tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games
Well, he is always so dominant during his winning runs and he denied us several Maru vs Serral finals.In addition, he has a gambling propensity that is unique to Jin Air Green Wings (well Cure has this since he joined DPG). And probably the fact that he is quite discreet and doesn't show emotions, which seems to be important for some fans.
Losing that Warp Prism when Stats did his first Collosus push was what boned him. If he had the warp ins available right with his army there he kills the 4th and 5th for sure.
On August 15 2020 18:16 Andi_Goldberger wrote: yet people still cry about zerg nerfs when they win every single important pvz match lmao
What's funny to me is that there are still people who argue that Zerg wasn't broken in 2019, and this is them after being nerfed all year long in 2020 still dominating everything.
On August 15 2020 18:16 Z3nith wrote: As much as people love to hate Rogue he's only using the tools given to him, lay this one at the door of the balance team.
Nothing wrong with Rogue lol, he’s a phenomenal player. Just disappointing that Stats has absolutely no chance.
If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
On August 15 2020 18:17 Poopi wrote: Hahaha Why deny TY just to get 4-0ed Stats? TY could have won 1 or 2 I think.
Even if TY was in poor form facing Rogue. TvZ is just more entertaining to watch in general compared to the stomp that's going on with this ZvP series.
On August 15 2020 18:16 Z3nith wrote: As much as people love to hate Rogue he's only using the tools given to him, lay this one at the door of the balance team.
Nothing wrong with Rogue lol, he’s a phenomenal player. Just disappointing that Stats has absolutely no chance.
Sounds about right. Unless this turns around dramatically this is gonna be the worst playoff bracket in a while.
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
On August 15 2020 18:22 Argonauta wrote: Rogue donating a game to avoid the nerfs
His Discord, Twitter, everything was flashing furiously after game 3 with messages from the lads. "ffs Rogue not like this, don't stop the gravy train"
Stats was so far ahead that it didn't matter but he completely misread the situation after holding the all in. Moving out on the map against the 2 base 30 drone zerg is the only way you can lose in that spot
On August 15 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm so bored of Stats upsetting players to make it to the finals only to get thoroughly trashed by a Zerg. This is not the first time he's done this.
On August 15 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm so bored of Stats upsetting players to make it to the finals only to get thoroughly trashed by a Zerg. This is not the first time he's done this.
Blame balance, not Stats
Blame balance for not closing a wall against a ling allin.
On August 15 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm so bored of Stats upsetting players to make it to the finals only to get thoroughly trashed by a Zerg. This is not the first time he's done this.
Beating TY wasn’t even an upset, his form was shit to begin with. That said, fuck this final and fuck this matchup lol.
Rogue gifted g4 just so that we continue the 40th finals -> 4-0 41th finals -> 4-1 trend. The real GOAT ! Can't wait for soO to lose 4-2 in next season finals !
On August 15 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm so bored of Stats upsetting players to make it to the finals only to get thoroughly trashed by a Zerg. This is not the first time he's done this.
Blame balance, not Stats
Balance isn't to blame when he keeps throwing away Warp Prisms or leaving his wall open.
I'll blame balance partially for what happens in his series vs Zerg, but a lot of it is just him and his bad habits.
On August 15 2020 18:39 [PkF] Wire wrote: Rogue gifted g4 just so that we continue the 40th finals -> 4-0 41th finals -> 4-1 trend. The real GOAT ! Can't wait for soO to lose 4-2 in next season finals !
I can't think of any game worht re-watching. The one game stats won was Rogue just all iníng because he was up 3-0 and thought 'fuck it why not'. Other games where hulk shash. GG to Rogue on the win.
The Rogue special... Funny but kinda sad at this point as well :D Anyway Rogue is just too good of a Zerg to ever lose to a Protoss in bo7. Shame TY didn't make it we could have gotten a much better finals I am sure.
GG Rogue, for me personally now the GOAT of Sc2. No one has the kind of resume he does. Maybe 1 more GSL to clinch it even for the non-believers
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right.
Banelings are needed to counter Marines though. They can't touch that, if they nerfed their actual damage vs Light then TvZ would break.
On August 15 2020 18:45 MarianoSC2 wrote: The Rogue special... Funny but kinda sad at this point as well :D Anyway Rogue is just too good of a Zerg to ever lose to a Protoss in bo7. Shame TY didn't make it we could have gotten a much better finals I am sure.
GG Rogue, for me personally now the GOAT of Sc2. No one has the kind of resume he does. Maybe 1 more GSL to clinch it even for the non-believers
agree 2 GSL, 2 IEM, 1 Blizzcon... only Inno and Maru are in that league among active players, although his lack of 2nd places and semifinals definitely puts him behind Inno and Maru in my eyes.
On August 15 2020 18:50 Fango wrote: Worst finals of all time. At least the other stomps had some hype going in.
Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least
Zerg got nerfed several times already.
zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
They're dragging their feet about it but they are trying to fix it. They've given Protoss brand new mechanics, have gutted two of Zerg's late game units, have gutted Nydus Worms (still viable but terrible compared to how they used to be) and are now trying to improve the Stargate, they've also nerfed creep, and buffed Oracles to counter creep better.
These are all things Blizzard has done for the sake of PvZ. The problem is that TvZ is balanced and TvP is arguably Protoss favored. It's hard to tweak the races for one particular match up without impacting the other two.
Maybe it is time for them to do something drastic like removing the Ravager's ability to destroy Forcefields. There's not too many other unit interactions that are strictly PvZ related.
On August 15 2020 18:57 Argonauta wrote: people talking about zerg nerfs but today Rogue didn't do any 200/200 mass baneling play or sh nydus play.
Because there's a lot more wrong about zerg than this, and as Vindicare indirectly pointed out, it's time for the design patches to actually change the design of the game instead of listing 20 random changes and going through with 5
On August 15 2020 18:50 Fango wrote: Worst finals of all time. At least the other stomps had some hype going in.
Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least
Zerg got nerfed several times already.
zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage.
The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it.
Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was.
On August 15 2020 18:50 Fango wrote: Worst finals of all time. At least the other stomps had some hype going in.
Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least
Zerg got nerfed several times already.
zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
They're dragging their feet about it but they are trying to fix it. They've given Protoss brand new mechanics, have gutted two of Zerg's late game units, have gutted Nydus Worms (still viable but terrible compared to how they used to be) and are now trying to improve the Stargate, they've also nerfed creep, and buffed Oracles to counter creep better.
These are all things Blizzard has done for the sake of PvZ. The problem is that TvZ is balanced and TvP is arguably Protoss favored. It's hard to tweak the races for one particular match up without impacting the other two.
Maybe it is time for them to do something drastic like removing the Ravager's ability to destroy Forcefields. There's not too many other unit interactions that are strictly PvZ related.
But you can easily address PvZ directly by using shield damage, as with EMP. Not sure why they're not doing that.
Also, TvZ is balanced? Not so sure about that. Seems to me that the matchup still doesn't work properly with zerg having too easy a time defending and too good/cheap options for harass and counter-attacks.
i don't think Rogue abused zerg imbalance that much in the series, maybe except game 3 but I think the main reason Stats lost that was because he lost his warp prism. I still think that lurkers are ridiculously op though.
On August 15 2020 18:50 Fango wrote: Worst finals of all time. At least the other stomps had some hype going in.
Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least
Zerg got nerfed several times already.
zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage.
The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it.
Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was.
The queen nerfs were for buffs that should never have been in the game to begin with. It's shocking that people were still cool with it for so long.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed...
On August 15 2020 18:59 Morbidius wrote: Protoss players complaining about lategame Zerg because of a failed wall that doesn't happen to master players. Protoss is really the new Terran.
Because that was the only map...
Also this is funny cause Zerg is the original whiner race :D
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right.
If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games where mass bane is seen Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter.
On August 15 2020 18:50 Fango wrote: Worst finals of all time. At least the other stomps had some hype going in.
Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least
Zerg got nerfed several times already.
zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage.
The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it.
Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was.
The queen nerfs were for buffs that should never have been in the game to begin with. It's shocking that people were still cool with it for so long.
I never was, I'm just shocked that it has done so little to affect winrates.
There have been air based metas against Zerg before even when Queens had 8 range that Protoss was taking advantage of. None of them have come back yet, Stargate play still looks helpless vs Zerg despite their main defensive AA getting nerfed.
Really goes to show just how overbuffed Zerg has been for so long.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed...
And we should just accept that? That every time a Protoss player goes into a grand finals vs Zerg there is a 90% chance that they will lose?
I think allowing vortex tech will help a bit even though it can be abused for archon toilets. Balance team also should should consider a nerf/buff to infestor since the new tech: microbial shrouds does not has any kind particular effect to the mass air toss armies. Hope to see a new air unit for Zerg,
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right.
If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter.
So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do?
I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right.
If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter.
So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do?
I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right.
If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter.
So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do?
I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit.
TvZ was fine when banes had 30hp....
Sure but how does lowering Baneling HP help Protoss at all? The primary thing that Banelings are used to kill in PvZ are Zealots and Adepts, neither unit has the range, DPS or micro capability to counter Banelings the way that Marines and Marauders do.
So all you're doing by nerfing their HP is making them easier to kill with Storm, Collosus or Stalkers, and the difference there is minimal.
The reason they don't nerf Baneling hit points is because it has a BIGGER impact in TvZ than in PvZ. The Pros already ran the numbers on this the last time it was proposed. It's a bigger change in the match up that doesn't need it.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest.
How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right.
If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter.
So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do?
I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit.
TvZ was fine when banes had 30hp....
Sure but how does lowering Baneling HP help Protoss at all? The primary thing that Banelings are used to kill in PvZ are Zealots and Adepts, neither unit has the range, DPS or micro capability to counter Banelings the way that Marines and Marauders do.
So all you're doing by nerfing their HP is making them easier to kill with Storm, Collosus or Stalkers, and the difference there is minimal.
The reason they don't nerf Baneling hit points is because it has a BIGGER impact in TvZ than in PvZ. The Pros already ran the numbers on this the last time it was proposed. It's a bigger change in the match up that doesn't need it.
Pvz is just unwinnable for a macro player like stats at this level. The only way to win a series is by surprising the zerg, and only the likes of parting can pull that off. Stats is just not that kind of protoss, and his style doesn't work at all in top level pvz.
This has been like this for years and years, design changes are needed.
Did Rogue even do anything particularly special in that series? No nydus, no swarm hosts, no mass banes, just standard zerg macro play, even that 2 base lair strat is something you pull out every 5 games on ladder just to make it more interesting. Just another day for Rogue I guess.
On August 15 2020 19:19 Arcanefrost wrote: Pvz is just unwinnable for a macro player like stats at this level. The only way to win a series is by surprising the zerg, and only the likes of parting can pull that off. Stats is just not that kind of protoss, and his style doesn't work at all in top level pvz.
This has been like this for years and years, design changes are needed.
Congrats to Rogue for another dominating grand finals win! Hope Stats can show some more good performances before his military service. 2nd place is still pretty good.
On August 15 2020 19:25 serralfan18 wrote: Really great games! Dont let the 4-1 score fool you. These games were super close. Congrats to Rogue on another win!
Not sure what stream you were watching. None of the games were close at all.
On August 15 2020 19:25 serralfan18 wrote: Really great games! Dont let the 4-1 score fool you. These games were super close. Congrats to Rogue on another win!
Not sure what stream you were watching. None of the games were close at all.
On August 15 2020 19:25 serralfan18 wrote: Really great games! Dont let the 4-1 score fool you. These games were super close. Congrats to Rogue on another win!
Not sure what stream you were watching. None of the games were close at all.
One thing I find funny is, how long so many of Zerg units have been over tuned making Zerg overpowered or imbalanced, while so many great or good Zerg players just failed to win, and only last year it became considered a problem after year of Serral. Like, what soO and Dark were doing during 2017 or 2018?
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed...
And we should just accept that? That every time a Protoss player goes into a grand finals vs Zerg there is a 90% chance that they will lose?
Well it's unrealistic to think Blizz will invest in redesigning their game at this point. So yes, just accept that races work in a certain way and some players are so good they master the best race to a point it looks unbeatable. Stats playstyle will never beat player such as Rogue in The bo7. On the other hand, I rarely see Rogue win against aggro tosses like Parting and Zest in bo3.
So is the game designed in a balanced way? Surely not. If all races just hold back and macro up Zerg will crush the other two with 200 supply against 150 in a couple of minutes. Is it fair? Probably not. Does the game allow all races to have a chance to win under certain circumstances? Yes. And I think that is the best we will ever gonna get
On August 15 2020 19:37 Legan wrote: One thing I find funny is, how long so many of Zerg units have been over tuned making Zerg overpowered or imbalanced, while so many great or good Zerg players just failed to win, and only last year it became considered a problem after year of Serral. Like, what soO and Dark were doing during 2017 or 2018?
If soO and Dark didn't choke they would have won more than anyone else. Hell by last year even they were picking up world championships.
Also Rogue's year came before Serrals, and people complained about balance then as well, they just stopped when Serral became #1 zerg.
On August 15 2020 19:37 Legan wrote: One thing I find funny is, how long so many of Zerg units have been over tuned making Zerg overpowered or imbalanced, while so many great or good Zerg players just failed to win, and only last year it became considered a problem after year of Serral. Like, what soO and Dark were doing during 2017 or 2018?
I think its mostly because back then protoss all ins actually still worked and there were multiple viable ones. Today we only have glaives and we all know how that bulid goes 90% of the time.
On August 15 2020 19:15 swarminfestor wrote: It seems like the only way toss can win championship is to do not allow Rogue to reach the final. No more balance whining.
So far in 2020, the only Protoss who won a Premier tournament, won the tournament because a Top Zerg wasn't present, and that's Neeb from ESL NA. Coincidence? I think not. At this point this isn't even balance whining, just spitting out facts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Argonauta wrote: Time to make finals bo9?
I think it would be bad for players health, even if 2 more games isn't insane, what if we end up with Dark vs TY 30min macrogames each map ? They are getting older.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Regarding the final today: in StarCraft II the opposite of soccer seems to be the case. A good defense might win games and bring you far in many tournaments. It does not win you tournaments though. Stats seems to be in desperate need of a more diverse approach to the game if he aims to be on top again. Otherwise players like Rogue will just keep crushing him, imo.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you?
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you?
Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken".
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you?
Honestly if you ignore GSL the picture is very clear: Zerg is the most broken race in the history of the game and has been that way for 3 years. WCS/IEM and Blizzcon(the ''global'' tournaments) haven't seen a non Zerg player win in 3 years
Noooo! Also why did they change the YouTube UI to have comments at the top Keep forgetting to use spoiler free embeds and getting spoiled.
With the caveat that I feel it’s considerably more pronounced in a Bo5 or a bo7 especially, man Zerg are so flexible and have options, or alternatively Protoss is very inflexible in the matchup.
Rogue is a great player and I think we only saw a 6/10 Stats today. Likewise Trap in his finals, didn’t play amazingly either but not train wreck level either and they just got absolutely steamrolled.
It’s pretty brutal to watch and this is after Nyduses got toned down and Infestors considerably nerfed too.
Hm, think we should just spitball preposterous asymmetric PvZ ideas at this stage. Terrans have EMP, which has other utility but has clear Protoss-specific dimensions. Overall Blizz don’t seem too found of interactions that only occur between two of the game’s races but I think investigating
WombaT’s Ridiculous IdeaTM Oracle - New unit ability Creep Eradication Field
Active ability. Energy cost - Fuck knows /second.
Upon activation a field is generated that totally isn’t a recoloured guardian shield and can eliminate rumours without vision.
The rationale behind this change is to enable more gateway ‘sharking’ to control the spread of creep while enabling non-committal or committed aggression that is more smoothly. A Protoss player can open oracles off Stargate and keep them active in a harassment capacity for longer as they don’t need to be withdrawn to grant creep vision. Alternatively Protoss players can free up robotics production for units with more defensive or offensive capability by skipping observers at phases of the game and still being able to clear creep.
In theory this doesn’t greatly augment the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit too much either.
I mean I am spitballing terrible ideas of course, on the other hand I think the central idea of giving race-specific abilities to try and fix issues with one matchup might be the way to go more often.
PvP is in a good spot and PvT isn’t terrible either these days, 2/3 isn’t bad but some of the attempts to fix PvZ might damage the fragile balancing act of those matchups.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you?
Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken".
You both have a point. The problem is not the overall PvZ winrate, it is the winrate of top Zergs against top Protoss in Bo5 and Bo7 games.
And the reason behind that is the LoTV economy. I doubt they can get around that fundamental problem through unit buffs, because it will either cause problems in TvZ/PvT, or they would have to bite the bullet and introduce lower damage done against shields for multiple Zerg units, which they are understandably reluctant to do.
I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
Exactly what I thought was going to happen and it's not like there is a different protoss that could have done much better. With these maps, as long as zerg doesn't get caught off guard (by insane risks from the protoss), the top zergs know how to easily counter pretty much everything.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Regarding the final today: in StarCraft II the opposite of soccer seems to be the case. A good defense might win games and bring you far in many tournaments. It does not win you tournaments though. Stats seems to be in desperate need of a more diverse approach to the game if he aims to be on top again. Otherwise players like Rogue will just keep crushing him, imo.
I’m unsure what the consensus is here. I don’t think people actually think the matchup is unwinnable, just has a terrible dynamic. One that does stretch to broken levels in bigger series.
I’d have to see the stats on it, just going off intuition. My intuition being that PvZ is fine in win rates in overall series. But within that breakdown Bo3 or less will be approaching balanced, Bo5 will see Protoss drop off a bit and Bo7 will see Protoss fall off a cliff.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
Protoss has been balanced around forcefield before and it never made for good games, no thanks.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you?
Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken".
You both have a point. The problem is not the overall PvZ winrate, it is the winrate of top Zergs against top Protoss in Bo5 and Bo7 games.
And the reason behind that is the LoTV economy. I doubt they can get around that fundamental problem through unit buffs, because it will either cause problems in TvZ/PvT, or they would have to bite the bullet and introduce lower damage done against shields for multiple Zerg units, which they are understandably reluctant to do.
Here I think we can agree. At the very top, there seems to be an issue in ZvP in very specific situation. Even though the very top serms to roll over Protoss, we still have a kind of even winrate. And this is mainly the case because Protoss does pretty well in shorter series. I have literally no idea how you could fix these issues without fucking one race or the other. ZvP, since the very start, had it‘s design issues that were stupid for both races, yet these design issues never really appeared to influence the overall. I think ar this point it‘d be easier if one race would clearly dominate the other to balance it out.
I think PvZ is zerg favored but I can't blame balance after watching this final.
I just think opening stargate automatically puts you at a disadvantage and is easily countered by zerg.
I never thought a style like Stats uses could ever beat a zerg like Rogue in a bo7.
Look at how Trap has struggled in PvZ until he started using the stalker, sentry, colossus, ruptor unit comp. That's all PartinG and Trap do right now in PvZ and it works.
Games 1 and 2 especially were just hard to watch with the way Stats plays.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
Protoss has been balanced around forcefield before and it never made for good games, no thanks.
On August 15 2020 19:15 swarminfestor wrote: It seems like the only way toss can win championship is to do not allow Rogue to reach the final. No more balance whining.
So far in 2020, the only Protoss who won a Premier tournament, won the tournament because a Top Zerg wasn't present, and that's Neeb from ESL NA. Coincidence? I think not. At this point this isn't even balance whining, just spitting out facts
I genuinely believe that Serral consciously plays bad strategies against protoss to lower his map winrate because if he just played his main macro build again and again he'd have something like 95%+ win and the nerfs would come faster.
what a boring series, and i usually get warned by admins when i talk about balance, i mean isn't this a forum where u can talk about your balance ideas? why is it forbidden?
Glad I didn't stay up for this one. I thought about it but figured it would be a one-sided stomp.
I didn't think it would be that much of a one-sided stomp though. Oof. I saw the youtube video was 2:20 and got concerned. Once I realized there was 45 minutes of preshow then it became obvious.
My thoughts on the state of PvZ at the pro level are already posted in the latest balance patch thread so I won't post them here.
Think this series perfectly exemplify two of the biggest problems of the matchup:
-Stargate openings are useless, that means bye bye one of the only tech tree opening Protoss can do.
-zerg can't be pressured effectively anymore.
You want to pressure zerg to stop them from expanding, but there's no way to do that anymore.
Even if you go adept and kill 4 drones the Zerg is just making 8 behind it, while having a big army of ling/roach and 3 queens, making it impossible to follow up on the harass. Same if you go Oracle.
Zerg players have gotten good, to the point where balance problems are showing. Harass doesn't do good damage anymore as zergs learned how to deal with itand you end up with the Zerg having better economy than you, and better army. Even if the army is equal the Zerg just storms the proofs with the economy. Lotv economy doesn't help either being extremely Zerg favored.
Changing the maps is not an option. Sure you can make expansions harder to defend but that would literally just make it worse for propose and would force them to all-in even more.
Blizzard proposed changes? Nerfing the baneling a little bit and buffing the VR speed? Reading their reasoning they want you to make VR to clear creep and kill overlords? How does that help against the intrinsic problem of the matchup?
Zerg economy needs to be nerfed. But they won't do that so protoss needs to be buffed. Either harass options, or protons army so they are more scary and can kill a greedy Zerg more easily (as right now it's pretty hard in the early/mid).
Want to also buff the VR? Make it's standard stack better vs light, and the ability better vs armored, that would be an interesting interaction. Right now the VR is just a worse flying immortal that's only useful for 10 seconds
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
From a casual viewer, it's ridiculous watching how a single unit is able to defend frontal pushes, fend off aerial harass, and expand creep spread for map control and increase mobility of units - ALL IN THE EARLY GAME!
It's also ridiculous that a Protoss with 30+ non-worker supply can't even effectively harass and pressure a Zarg with 10+ non-worker supply.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game.
But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
From a casual viewer, it's ridiculous watching how a single unit is able to defend frontal pushes, fend off aerial harass, and expand creep spread for map control and increase mobility of units - ALL IN THE EARLY GAME!
It's also ridiculous that a Protoss with 30+ non-worker supply can't even effectively harass and pressure a Zarg with 10+ non-worker supply.
Yes, in short, the Queen is annoying af....
its ridiculous usefull af, they should do more nerf to the Queen is the real issue here as you describe.
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
There.
Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games.
Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss?
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
how so? Queen is the most versatile unit in the whole Starcraft 2 history. it needs to be look at.
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
It's funny reading some of the suggestions made by players that have no clue how huge impact their suggestions would have.
I don't even like the Queen as a unit, I don't like most of the macro mechanics/units in SC2, but this suggestion is just dumb.
It's like back in the HOTS days hearing the suggestion from Terran players how Banelings should do friendly fire, because Tanks and Widow Mines have it...
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
There.
Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games.
Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss?
If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah.
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
There.
Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games.
Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss?
If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah.
It's not the same thing, because Protoss is designed differently. When Protoss are dominant it's always ONE BUILD that is dominant. When Maru was winning his 4 straight titles he was doing it with a variety of styles in a variety of metas.
Protoss only ever usually gets super strong when one super strong build is discovered and EVERYONE starts abusing it. Even when Maru was winning he was the only Terran that was putting up results, foreign Terrans were still being massacred.
Think back to the game's history to all of the periods where Protoss is dominating. It's always on the back of one or TWO at the most super powerful builds in one particular match up.
You can call that a lack of flexibility and bad design if you want, but it's how Protoss is. What Protoss needs is fundamental design changes that means that they don't have to rely on that kind of meta to be successful. Guys like me have been saying this for almost 10 years.
As far as Zerg goes, they get treated by Blizzard differently and I do agree it has a lot to do with how popular they are in the foreign scene. The fact that Infestor/Broodlord was allowed to be dominant for over 6 months last year was extremely frustrating, and the fact that it took them a year to nerf Nydus Worms when it was obvious from even as far back as last year's IEM Katowice in February that they needed to be nerfed.
My two cents, zerg is by design the most reaction-based race, and right now it has enough tools that it's always the fault of the zerg if he doesn't know that something is coming. This is magnified in PvZ because it's a match-up that relies on compositions more than TvZ does: if your army is good vs their army, you're probably gonna win.
I don't really think any particular unit or comp is the issue, it's the fact that a good zerg is always aware of what's happening long before it has a chance of hurting him significantly, and so he can easily prepare.
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon?
If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes.
Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team
Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss.
I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair.
ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious
Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg.
Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you?
Honestly if you ignore GSL the picture is very clear: Zerg is the most broken race in the history of the game and has been that way for 3 years. WCS/IEM and Blizzcon(the ''global'' tournaments) haven't seen a non Zerg player win in 3 years
Instead of ignoring GSL, just ignore Maru's victories and it still looks really bad for non-zergs lol
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
It's funny reading some of the suggestions made by players that have no clue how huge impact their suggestions would have.
I don't even like the Queen as a unit, I don't like most of the macro mechanics/units in SC2, but this suggestion is just dumb.
It's like back in the HOTS days hearing the suggestion from Terran players how Banelings should do friendly fire, because Tanks and Widow Mines have it...
bro im not suggesting the to be all apply but you can start from one of them so, Queen is broken af.
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject.
This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here.
lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this.
how so? Queen is the most versatile unit in the whole Starcraft 2 history. it needs to be look at.
I would rather trash the adept and empower gateway units more effectively. I want protoss to be able to get to the mid game without needing to kill 20 drone cost effectively. I would also make it so carriers can't be grabbed the viper to empower the late game.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game.
But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss.
On August 16 2020 02:33 Waxangel wrote: sup guys, is Rogue the greatest of all time?
Zerg production probably needs to be looked at for late game. Right now I think it's fair to say no race can fight zerg late game. There's like 3-4 things that make it too hard.
I guess that'a design decision. Does Blizzard want the game to be just select your timing attack and the game is decided on that, or do they want to have a stable late game. There's really almost been no extended period of stable late game in the 10 years of SC2 because of this game's design.
If they want to have a stable late game, then they have to figure out a way to not make Zerg more susceptible to timing attacks, but bring the races onto similar footing for late game. Which I frankly don't see them figuring out because no real effort has been done to do this for 10 years.
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12.
There.
Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games.
Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss?
If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah.
It's not the same thing, because Protoss is designed differently. When Protoss are dominant it's always ONE BUILD that is dominant. When Maru was winning his 4 straight titles he was doing it with a variety of styles in a variety of metas.
Protoss only ever usually gets super strong when one super strong build is discovered and EVERYONE starts abusing it. Even when Maru was winning he was the only Terran that was putting up results, foreign Terrans were still being massacred.
Think back to the game's history to all of the periods where Protoss is dominating. It's always on the back of one or TWO at the most super powerful builds in one particular match up.
You can call that a lack of flexibility and bad design if you want, but it's how Protoss is. What Protoss needs is fundamental design changes that means that they don't have to rely on that kind of meta to be successful. Guys like me have been saying this for almost 10 years.
As far as Zerg goes, they get treated by Blizzard differently and I do agree it has a lot to do with how popular they are in the foreign scene. The fact that Infestor/Broodlord was allowed to be dominant for over 6 months last year was extremely frustrating, and the fact that it took them a year to nerf Nydus Worms when it was obvious from even as far back as last year's IEM Katowice in February that they needed to be nerfed.
I agree much with this. But, in my opinion, this doesn't necessarily have to do with protoss design, but process that is used in balancing.
It really seems to that if/when protosses figure something out, it becomes widely used and gets nerfed. But in the nerfing process, Blizzard usually doesn't just tweak units, they gut them and then in turn give some other unit some disproportionate buff. Then some of the P's learn to use it, and cycle repeats. Now they are buffing Void rays, it seems. VR seems like an unit that should be balanced around, as making it just so good that it isn't either overpowered or useless seems to be difficult job that would prolly require iterations, maybe lots of em.
On the other hand, especially in zvp, zerg often seems to have wide enough advantage in normal games that they don't even have to resort their seemingly overpowered units, like Swarm host. They still have that ace in their sleeves, and even if it isn't used, they may passively affect games (can't open this way / can't pick this map / etc.). Even when protoss was winning tournaments during blink era, it wasn't a horde of non-Koreans taking titles, it was established Korean pros that were contenders and champions even before blink era. I don't remember any high level tournament wins for non-Koreans during that era, and still chats were screaming power of protoss. During I think years of zerg things like Swarm hosts and Broodlords, I don't think the animosity got even close to what protoss saw, even though many SH/BL -era players who won tournaments were non-Korean.
Reminds me somewhat of Brood war actually. Hard for protoss to beat zerg in most stages of the game but they are most likely to win with a very a crisp timing attack. If they play a vanilla standard build, they are usually slightly behind against zerg. Difference is that protoss is favoured in BW ultra lategame (not the lategame though) whereas that doesn't seem to be the case in SC2.
Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW.
On August 16 2020 01:55 Nebuchad wrote: My two cents, zerg is by design the most reaction-based race, and right now it has enough tools that it's always the fault of the zerg if he doesn't know that something is coming. This is magnified in PvZ because it's a match-up that relies on compositions more than TvZ does: if your army is good vs their army, you're probably gonna win.
I don't really think any particular unit or comp is the issue, it's the fact that a good zerg is always aware of what's happening long before it has a chance of hurting him significantly, and so he can easily prepare.
This is exactly what is wrong with the ZvX matchup which imo is unbalanced, if Zerg defends the early game pressure without taking too much damage, Zerg wins when it reaches late game. If Terran and Protoss did not pressure and choose to sit back, Zerg will snowball out of control and win late game. T & P are forced to pressure the Zerg early game and must dealt sufficient damage to prevent Zerg from snowballing. Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent
On August 16 2020 04:14 rayl991 wrote: Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
This is actually the exact conclusion I came up with as well. Protoss units are more expensive and beefier than any other race but they are also extremely fragile and easy to over-run. This is why they have the Forcefield ability. It allows them to control space a little bit.
Protoss does not struggle against Terran because Terran doesn't have a mass produced unit that can nullify this ability (until ghosts which are high tech and expensive). Ravagers allow them to break down those Forcefields too easily. You can change the way that bile interacts with Forcefield which wont affect TvP.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
This is actually the exact conclusion I came up with as well. Protoss units are more expensive and beefier than any other race but they are also extremely fragile and easy to over-run. This is why they have the Forcefield ability. It allows them to control space a little bit.
Protoss does not struggle against Terran because Terran doesn't have a mass produced unit that can nullify this ability (until ghosts which are high tech and expensive). Ravagers allow them to break down those Forcefields too easily. You can change the way that bile interacts with Forcefield which wont affect TvP.
Corrosive Bile has a 7 second cooldown. The cooldown is just way too fast I feel like. Making it 9-10 would really help IMO.
On August 16 2020 04:55 TentativePanda wrote: A Zerg wins GSL and we need to solve “intrinsic balance issues”. Terran wins GSL and we get GOM TvT memes lol
Blame 2019. Zerg has been dominating for 3 years now, but 2019 was historically lopsided.
And yet even after that many nerfs they're still on top. Just goes to show how broken they were in 2019.
People are fed up with it. It's pretty easy to see that.
I know this is an overused argument, but is it really too far to ask if Zerg is being flattered by higher skilled players? Sure, soO and Dark got some championships last year, but zerg has been nerfed multiple times since then. If we're looking at EPT rankings, then zerg isn't doing particularly well.
Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Korea standings:
Rogue #1 Serral #10 Dark #11 Solar #13 DongRaeGu #14 soO # 15 Reynor #19
Average zerg rank: 11.9 Average terran rank: 7.4 Average protoss rank: 11.3
Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Circuit standings:
Average zerg rank: 10.2 Average terran rank: 10 Average protoss rank: 11.3
These numbers don't seem to indicate that zerg is disproportionately unbalanced. It's Rogue, Serral, and Reynor winning a bunch of stuff, and then the rest of the zergs floundering way down in the standings. Idk what the solution is, but I would have expected that if zerg was so imba we would see more zergs being generally successful, even if they're not winning championships.
On August 16 2020 05:32 Niravroh wrote: I know this is an overused argument, but is it really too far to ask if Zerg is being flattered by higher skilled players? Sure, soO and Dark got some championships last year, but zerg has been nerfed multiple times since then. If we're looking at EPT rankings, then zerg isn't doing particularly well.
Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Korea standings:
Rogue #1 Serral #10 Dark #11 Solar #13 DongRaeGu #14 soO # 15 Reynor #19
Average zerg rank: 11.9 Average terran rank: 7.4 Average protoss rank: 11.3
Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Circuit standings:
Average zerg rank: 10.2 Average terran rank: 10 Average protoss rank: 11.3
These numbers don't seem to indicate that zerg is disproportionately unbalanced. It's Rogue, Serral, and Reynor winning a bunch of stuff, and then the rest of the zergs floundering way down in the standings. Idk what the solution is, but I would have expected that if zerg was so imba we would see more zergs being generally successful, even if they're not winning championships.
From April 21st, 2019 to June 6th, 2020 there had been a zerg in the final of every premier tournament. Zerg has been incredibly consistent.
Absolutely happy for Rogue. He's incredibly talented and proves it time after time. Its a shame some people prefer balance whining to saluting the fantastic player Rogue is. Hope to see more of his domination.
Stats played some pretty uninspiring openings and Rogue knew how to deal with everything. As much as I was rooting for a close Stats, I can't help but wonder who his practice partners were that made him think these strats were viable against someone of Rogue's caliber.
On August 16 2020 06:33 Kinky wrote: Stats played some pretty uninspiring openings and Rogue knew how to deal with everything. As much as I was rooting for a close Stats, I can't help but wonder who his practice partners were that made him think these strats were viable against someone of Rogue's caliber.
The strats for the most part were fine enough, but the execution was no where near what we normally expect from Stats
On August 16 2020 03:24 Anc13nt wrote: Reminds me somewhat of Brood war actually. Hard for protoss to beat zerg in most stages of the game but they are most likely to win with a very a crisp timing attack. If they play a vanilla standard build, they are usually slightly behind against zerg. Difference is that protoss is favoured in BW ultra lategame (not the lategame though) whereas that doesn't seem to be the case in SC2.
Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW.
Maybe based on stats if you include all maps, but maps play a huge role in balancing BW. Also, it's clear cut why a Protoss lost in BW and there is always a way things could have been done differently. Who has the advantage also oscillates a lot through a 15-20 minute game. You rarely see a game in SC2 where Protoss can lose an advantage and then gain it back. Watching a TvZ in SC2 is the best thing ever. Since WoL the matchup has had tons of back and forth metas.Since LoTV, PvZ just really hasn't ever been that way. I personally loathe thinking either this PvZ will be a blowout or Protoss will have done something magical like Classic vs Dark.
On August 16 2020 07:12 Bagration wrote: Any recommended games to watch?
Literally not a single one, if you're interested in good back and forth games.
Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn
I realize I posted in the wrong thread (posted in preview thread and will delete it now). But as I said there, the only thing that made this final better than Nestea vs Inca is that Stats did manage to take a game.
If you *have* to watch a game, do game 3, as it at least looks like it might be interesting for a short while.
Oh, and I was cheering for Stats, and given the way he played to get here, he deserved to be in the finals, but the finals games were truly 2011 standard GSL final.
On August 16 2020 03:24 Anc13nt wrote: Reminds me somewhat of Brood war actually. Hard for protoss to beat zerg in most stages of the game but they are most likely to win with a very a crisp timing attack. If they play a vanilla standard build, they are usually slightly behind against zerg. Difference is that protoss is favoured in BW ultra lategame (not the lategame though) whereas that doesn't seem to be the case in SC2.
Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW.
Maybe based on stats if you include all maps, but maps play a huge role in balancing BW. Also, it's clear cut why a Protoss lost in BW and there is always a way things could have been done differently. Who has the advantage also oscillates a lot through a 15-20 minute game. You rarely see a game in SC2 where Protoss can lose an advantage and then gain it back. Watching a TvZ in SC2 is the best thing ever. Since WoL the matchup has had tons of back and forth metas.Since LoTV, PvZ just really hasn't ever been that way. I personally loathe thinking either this PvZ will be a blowout or Protoss will have done something magical like Classic vs Dark.
PvZ is, if you don’t balance with specific maps to my knowledge more actually imbalanced in BW than it’s been in SC2
Different game of course, and more marginal gains can be forced with brute mechanics over a long period.
Granted this is mostly from watching FPVoDs of this Bisu fellow that you may or may not of heard of, but he’s pretty good.
Anyway in BW PvZ in theory Protoss is also trying to constrain the Zerg growth. What feels markedly different is that this occurs in multiple phases.
You’ve your corsairs, DTs and various shenanigans. Storm drops later on, plus the threat of big frontal attacks as well.
As you say, PvZ in SC2 has a few damage phases. The difference seems to be if you miss those windows or the Zerg defends perfectly there you’re kind of boned
On August 16 2020 04:14 rayl991 wrote: Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent
That's the case for anyone
The contrast is between, like, Showtime not being ready for a muta switch and Reynor not being ready for a glaive build. Should Showtime have seen that spire? Yeah probably, and he will most of the time, but there is a percentage of games where he won't see it despite his best efforts, I think we're all accepting that this is a thing that can happen.
If Reynor loses to a glaive build, today that is just kind of silly. How was he not ready for this to happen? He should have been.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
I havent been following super closely for a few years but the best player in a matchup being sub 50% definitely feels like a problem.
I'm having a hard time understanding people who are arguing that pvz is balanced as is or belittling players trying to address pvz issues.
I had to log in for the first time in over 7 years to beg the community and Blizzard to have some sympathy for Protoss.
I'm used to Protoss being the weakest race of the three (I've been watching StarCraft since 2007), but I've never felt Protoss feel as powerless as they are now. It's so depressing. The last good memory of competitive StarCraft as a Protoss fan is SoS vs Jaedong in 2013.
Am I supposed to be ok with a handful of Super Tournament wins over 5 years? It makes me so sad.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game.
But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss.
I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss?
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game.
But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss.
I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss?
There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction.
LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with.
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game.
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged.
Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss.
The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game.
But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?
If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss.
I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss?
There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction.
LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with.
edit:doublepost pls remove (should really have coffee before i try to post somewhere rip)
There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction.
LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
I don't think it's bad. But I do think it's difficult to read much into it, as it is very low sample size. And then those monstrous 10 wins by Serral skew stuff pretty badly. And Serral has been absolutely monstrous in ZvP for a long time now.
If you remove those 10 games, then you have 62 wins out of 118 matches played, which is a winrate of 53%, quite in line with the other match-ups. That said, Protoss is on the losing hand on both vT and vZ, and that is a problem. However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Is that due to Protoss being underpowered, or because of Trap, Parting and Stats just not being in top form?
I mean... that's kinda the problem here, to decide on what is a representative sample. That image you posted goes with low sample size of the very top players in only the most important matches. Meanwhile Aligulac paints a very different picture, and PvZ looks super balanced and PvT is the worst balanced... in favor of *Protoss*! http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
So yeah, statistics can say whatever you want them to say in this case.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
But then you aren't claiming that Z has been overpowered for the last year or so, but since 2017... the last time Protoss won the GSL and the year of Neeb. And that's quite a strong claim. Whereas for my position all I need to claim is that Maru and Serral went super sayan in 2018 and regardless of race balance rampaged their respective regions, and somewhat led the way for their entire race's resurgence. Maybe you can make a claim that they did that by finding new tactics and playstyles (or perfecting build orders on styles that already existed) that simply *cannot* be answered by Protoss and they need to be buffed. Alternatively, we need new Protoss blood (Astrea? A returning PartinG?) to do something similar.
I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle. Given the state of the ladder, it's clear that only really right at the top Protoss is struggling vs Zerg. A far larger problem is that regardless of balance, the games are utterly unwatchable. Top Protoss players seem strangely out of form, but something needs to be done to bring some balance back at the top. And I really don't think bane damage or void ray speed is that fix. Maybe it's something as simple as increasing ravager cooldown, or maybe it's something more far-reaching to change the economy, like halving Nexus cost and warp-in speed (maybe as a cheap upgrade from the cyber core so you can't just immediately triple expand).
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
But then you aren't claiming that Z has been overpowered for the last year or so, but since 2017... the last time Protoss won the GSL and the year of Neeb. And that's quite a strong claim. Whereas for my position all I need to claim is that Maru and Serral went super sayan in 2018 and regardless of race balance rampaged their respective regions, and somewhat led the way for their entire race's resurgence. Maybe you can make a claim that they did that by finding new tactics and playstyles (or perfecting build orders on styles that already existed) that simply *cannot* be answered by Protoss and they need to be buffed. Alternatively, we need new Protoss blood (Astrea? A returning PartinG?) to do something similar.
I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle. Given the state of the ladder, it's clear that only really right at the top Protoss is struggling vs Zerg. A far larger problem is that regardless of balance, the games are utterly unwatchable. Top Protoss players seem strangely out of form, but something needs to be done to bring some balance back at the top. And I really don't think bane damage or void ray speed is that fix. Maybe it's something as simple as increasing ravager cooldown, or maybe it's something more far-reaching to change the economy, like halving Nexus cost and warp-in speed (maybe as a cheap upgrade from the cyber core so you can't just immediately triple expand).
You mentioned a few more people than Serral and Maru as elite in the last quote, which is part of what made me react. But everyone is influenced by meta. I have a reaction to saying stuff like "we can remove the wins by Serral because he's Serral", because when you watch Serral play PvZ right now you're watching something really silly where he has a playstyle that is almost guaranteed win and then he makes bad all-ins in non-crucial games seemingly just to lower his map winrate. You end up with a bunch of 3-2 "close" series where absolutely no game is close and absolutely nobody doubts the end result at any point.
So yeah, Serral is obviously better than the rest but you should still count his games. Maybe he should be 8-2 or maybe he should be 9-1, I don't really know, but I know he shouldn't be at "10-0 and I'll donate some games because it's that obvious that I'll win at match point."
His TvZ winrate is at a healthy place to be for a matchup. Almost 80%, a clear favourite, but he could lose, and I can tell he's trying his hardest in every game.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
2019 GSL ST Season 1. It's the only proper metric for measuring balance.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
Well, Stats is in the group, occassionally Zest who has been in some finals(although didn't win that many). It's not that Protoss don't have any, they just don't have that many. While other in other races you can easily name 4 and add one or two more, Protoss has two at best.
The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements.
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
Well, Stats is in the group, occassionally Zest who has been in some finals(although didn't win that many). It's not that Protoss don't have any, they just don't have that many. While other in other races you can easily name 4 and add one or two more, Protoss has two at best.
The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements.
How did you get through a who’s who of top Protoss players without mentioning Trap? I’m livid enough, god help your soul if Gemini reads this :p
Parting has at least partially filled herO’s old niche too of doing weird aggression that he pulls off with pure execution.
Indeed my argument over not over-reacting to the Protoss dominated Super Tournament in 2019 was precisely that they actually did have a depth of really good players.
Since then we have lost Classic and herO, which are big losses for sure.
If it was an issue about Protoss lacking truly elite level players they’d be hitting a Ro8 ceiling and getting monstered by the top tier Terrans and Zergs relatively equally.
We don’t even have a singular PvZ sniper these days, where basically every top Zerg is scary in ZvP. At the absolute top level you generally have your mirror specialists and your clear top monsters within each race at the interracial matchups.
Who’s the scary PvZ player these days? Scary within the Protoss context is a player who’s got a 50/50 shot in a Bo5 and will get pumped in a bo7
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements.
What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred.
Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight?
Haven't read this thread yet but I'm very confused about what happened in this series. It looks like Stats was doing very outdated strats and wasn't with the meta, but he was earlier in the tournament. Did he think he had a read on Rogue from watching replays and then it turns out he was wrong? Is he ready to go into the military and didn't give a damn? Was he making some kind of commentary through his playstyle instead of playing to win? Maybe he has a cold and didn't tell anyone. After understanding this game for a little while (despite being awful myself, i just watched a lot of pro games) there was a period where I didn't understand the game at all, it was too complicated for me, and it seemed like even the commentators didn't understand the game very well either or if they did they weren't explaining it to the audience very well. felt like things were coming around again and I was starting to be able to follow the games again and that they weren't as obtuse anymore but this is a complete mystery to me.
Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
One thing I do definitely "get" about what made Rogue successful in this tournament is he was not playing reactive. I haven't been watching every tournament everywhere but in the GSL which I have been watching, Zergs were almost all playing for 4 bases or more and weren't trying to end the game any time earlier than that. Rogue really switched it up with innovative early game rush strats which may have been on the ladder or in other tournaments I haven't seen but hadn't been in the GSL yet. But when it comes to the finals, that wasn't even a part of the finals.
On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote: Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
I agree with this. Part of the problem is that many (though not all) of our Korean narratives used to be centered around "is x the best player in the world?" and that debate, no doubt because the language barrier made it harder for us to relate to Koreans. But winning a GSL doesn't even mean that's true anymore with Reynors and Serral being top 5 players. Also many narratives that perhaps would be fun (Trap or Cure making to the top and finally winning a long-awaited championship) were completely destroyed (didn't they both get 4-0'd in the finals?). There's only so long I can read a "Cure is great online" GSL preview post.
Also, Korea has been the same group of slowly dwindling Koreans for 7 years now, while in Europe we are still seeing new faces every year. The one exception is that it has been fun seeing returners fight against the big boys (DRG, Parting, Dream, etc...)
It would probably be exciting seeing Rogue dominate as much as he does, but his finals are infamously and repeatedly boring .
On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote: Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
Yeah, it sure is exciting flipping a coin to see if Reynor or Serral wins each and every tournament. Also, the Rogue hate is uncalled for. He did SH/Nydus when it was broken, and was the only Zerg player to actually say it should be nerfed. He has a wide range, as you'll see if you actually watch these finals.
On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote: Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA.
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else.
And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in.
I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8.
Yeah, it sure is exciting flipping a coin to see if Reynor or Serral wins each and every tournament. Also, the Rogue hate is uncalled for. He did SH/Nydus when it was broken, and was the only Zerg player to actually say it should be nerfed. He has a wide range, as you'll see if you actually watch these finals.
yeah kinda how I feel about the whole western vs Korean scene, I have no interest in NA because I know none of the players are truly competitive at the top level and EU is just a coin flip between Reynor and Serral every tournament, I just get tired of watching ZvZ even if the matchup has improved a lot
I think there are plenty of GSL storylines, but the finalists were harder to hype this time. Imagine if the finals had: DRG - The returning player who suddenly broke through again. Parting - Winner of the 1st WCS who is returning to old form with unorthodox aggressive builds and godly micro. TY - The player/commentator who outsmarts his opponents with mastermind planning. InnoVation - Can he do it another time to try to make a case for that "B" title?
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements.
What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred.
Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight?
2018: Stats: 2nd GSL Code S S1, 1st GSL ST1, 2nd GSL vs The World, 2nd Blizzcon sOs: 2nd IEM PyeongChang, 2nd GSL ST2 Classic: 2nd IEM, 1st GSL ST2 Zest: 2nd GSL Code S S2
For Protoss being murdered they gathered pretty solid list of titles and 2nd places, mostly Classic and Stats. In 2019 Protoss has been in EVERY code S finals. You can't say this for Zerg nor Terran.
Yes, there were not winning much, but they certainy were not massacred as you try to show it. And Classic is a huge loss of a top player.
So the next time, mr. Donkey crap, check the results. And that's just 1st & 2nd place...
Edit > if you didn't miss by point by a mile, I am saying the current Protoss was affected by the CURRENT LOSSES, namely Classic and herO. Not HotS losses, that would be Rain as well and guess what, I didn't name Rain, did I?
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%.
Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts.
edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that
This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl.
Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map.
Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself.
However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier.
Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have.
The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements.
What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred.
Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight?
2018: Stats: 2nd GSL Code S S1, 1st GSL ST1, 2nd GSL vs The World, 2nd Blizzcon sOs: 2nd IEM PyeongChang, 2nd GSL ST2 Classic: 2nd IEM, 1st GSL ST2 Zest: 2nd GSL Code S S2
For Protoss being murdered they gathered pretty solid list of titles and 2nd places, mostly Classic and Stats. In 2019 Protoss has been in EVERY code S finals. You can't say this for Zerg nor Terran.
Yes, there were not winning much, but they certainy were not massacred as you try to show it. And Classic is a huge loss of a top player.
So the next time, mr. Donkey crap, check the results. And that's just 1st & 2nd place...
Edit > if you didn't miss by point by a mile, I am saying the current Protoss was affected by the CURRENT LOSSES, namely Classic and herO. Not HotS losses, that would be Rain as well and guess what, I didn't name Rain, did I?
"Four entire first places, that's a whopping two per year! Protoss is clearly doing fine."
People are still talking about protoss not doing fine? Lmao... Protoss won more money than terran in 2018, in spite of Maru hard carrying terran race so they don't look super broke. That's hella telling imo, they didn't win WCS / GSL but overall they performed way better than terran, and a bit worse than zerg. But yeah they don't dominate LotV as hard as zerg, but it's not that protoss has been particularly bad in LotV, more that zerg has been particularly good / broken in LotV.
On August 17 2020 17:17 Poopi wrote: People are still talking about protoss not doing fine? Lmao... Protoss won more money than terran in 2018, in spite of Maru hard carrying terran race so they don't look super broke. That's hella telling imo, they didn't win WCS / GSL but overall they performed way better than terran, and a bit worse than zerg. But yeah they don't dominate LotV as hard as zerg, but it's not that protoss has been particularly bad in LotV, more that zerg has been particularly good / broken in LotV.
"because Protoss was strong years ago, they are allowed to suffer now"
Stats against TY I felt could go either way given build choices and form on the day.
Stats against Rogue even with people quoting Aligulac and saying Stats was the hottest PvZer around, nah I wanted Stats to win but felt Rogue would stomp him.
There isn’t a single scary PvZer on the planet right now either, not a single real terrifying sniper. Best you get is maybe having a 50/50 shot on a good day.
Balance aside in Starcraft you’ve always had players with asymmetric matchup strengths. Some suck at mirrors, some are great at one interracial matchup and not the other.
Who is actually a monster at PvZ these days? Hell failing that whose best matchup is PvZ? Nobody at the top level?
On August 18 2020 00:54 Wombat_NI wrote: Stats against TY I felt could go either way given build choices and form on the day.
Stats against Rogue even with people quoting Aligulac and saying Stats was the hottest PvZer around, nah I wanted Stats to win but felt Rogue would stomp him.
There isn’t a single scary PvZer on the planet right now either, not a single real terrifying sniper. Best you get is maybe having a 50/50 shot on a good day.
Balance aside in Starcraft you’ve always had players with asymmetric matchup strengths. Some suck at mirrors, some are great at one interracial matchup and not the other.
Who is actually a monster at PvZ these days? Hell failing that whose best matchup is PvZ? Nobody at the top level?
This is very valid point you're raising here. I am now for couple of months mostly watching PvZ VODs to find any inspiring, fresh, strong, meta-shifting gameplay from P but with rather poor results. There was that Zest 4g adept on IEM which needed like couple hours to be crushed by Rogue. There is also that blink-stalker heavy followup to glaived adepts opening with transition to 2-3 Colossus and push that Trap and PartinG are using and it is probably the only 'new' strategy on the table which might stick a bit longer. However we already saw in GSL S2 finals how it fares if you miss your timing window and don't hit before vipers. All in all there doesn't seem to be any stable, long term strategy for P in PvZ which gives good results and Zergs knowing that are cutting more and more drones in the midgame with the anticipation of committed pressure/all-in from P so it is even harder to win that way. Also that's why we see mostly roach/ravager based comps with occasional transition to banes if protoss is still alive.