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Pandemona
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Map Pool Semi FinalsResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51458 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
 , I think it will be a pretty bad series unfortunately | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
Maybe not, but one can hope! | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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serralfan18
99 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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GTR
51407 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:05 GTR wrote: wait, did they hire a venue even though they can't have a crowd? To me it just looks like the new studio. Which is not that new anymore. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
Head says Rogue, heart wants Stats S T A T S B O Y S | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:18 sneakyfox wrote: Say what you will about Rogue, but he's by far the most honest of the top zergs. "If Protoss doesn't come with a well-prepared all-in, it's easy to defend". Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd" | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:19 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, man who is frequently eliminated in the earliest round of GSL after winning stuff promises to make "Group of Death" for Ro16 next season. It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:20 Elentos wrote: Meanwhile, Dark at the height of BL/infestor 2.0: "wELL cANnON ruSh iS a GooD bUiLd" And Serral: "Mech imba imba imba" | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:21 sneakyfox wrote: It's a new format He's already seeded into the Ro16 so if he wins today, the first thing he'll do next season is the group selections.Way to miss the point entirely | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
What was the point then? | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do! | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:24 Elentos wrote: That given Rogue's record in GSL post winning tournaments it doesn't seem like something he should or would do! Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
When did serral say that exactly? | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:25 sneakyfox wrote: Ah, but he never said he would be part of that group himself, just that he would create it for the fans. I mean they nerfed champion's advantage at this point well enough that he can't really create a group of death all that well. Best way for him to do that would be to add all the weak players to his group so then the other 3 groups are stacked. Like TY did it | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
Don't remember exactly when, but feel like it was in the summer 2019? On August 15 2020 17:27 Elentos wrote: I mean they nerfed champion's advantage at this point well enough that he can't really create a group of death all that well. Best way for him to do that would be to add all the weak players to his group so then the other 3 groups are stacked. Like TY did it Wait have they nerfed the advantage? How has it changed? | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:29 sneakyfox wrote: Don't remember exactly when, but feel like it was in the summer 2019? Wait have they nerfed the advantage? How has it changed? The champion used to be able to swap 2 players that weren't in their own group. Now all changes need to affect the champion's group. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:30 Elentos wrote: The champion used to be able to swap 2 players that weren't in their own group. Now all changes need to affect the champion's group. Ah okay, so the way it's been a while now. Yeah it's more difficult now, but if Special hadn't rebelled TY could still have made a an (ever stronger) group of death. The champ needs to conspire with his group mates | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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darklycid
3381 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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Poopi
France12762 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:37 -KG- wrote: If only he had easier access to Void Rays!!!!11 Clearly tempest damage increase to building is the answer | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
Just sayin | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:38 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Clearly tempest damage increase to building is the answer If only the banelings did 3 less damage to archons | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:39 sneakyfox wrote: That muta flock could easily have been taken care of by a single, well-placed Colossus headbutt. Just sayin Years of community asking for Colossus headbutt must finally pay off, right? | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:40 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Years of community asking for Colossus headbutt must finally pay off, right? If Blizzard has even the remotest ambition of being a modern tech business in sync with their customers, they have to do it at this point. | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:42 Argonauta wrote: Stats is goign heavy in stargate play to force rogue away of sh nydus Saving us from the horror, Stats is such a hero | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
E; oh wait he has 25 hydras lol | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
Yeah there it is. Okay big comeback | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:46 Fecalfeast wrote: rogue can't fight this On August 15 2020 17:45 Fyzar wrote: Rogue actually way down in workers, not looking too terrible for Stats. E; oh wait he has 25 hydras lol You both were saying? x] | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Zzzapper
1791 Posts
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darklycid
3381 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:46 OsaX Nymloth wrote: You both were saying? x] I actually meant to stay stats it was a slip! | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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IndyO
390 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:47 sneakyfox wrote: Well the double SG prevented the mutas, improvement? So we need next game double SG into double robo + robo bay* * only to die to SH nydus | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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t5Fab
182 Posts
Also in the previous game he was not on par with his micro, I think it is not his day. With all the displeasure that will bring me, this will be another Rogue win | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:46 yht9657 wrote: OK what just happened Rogue hit a timing and hit him with slow Banes and Hydralisks right before Psionic Storm could come online, and right before Stats started investing in the Gateways he just built. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:46 Vindicare605 wrote: Flawless timing by Rogue. Hit perfectly before that surge of Gateways could be used properly. yeah, it seemed easy but actually gathering the info, adapt to stats play and hit the perfect timing before hidras became useless was beautiful. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
I'll give credit to Rogue for 1 thing though, he contaminated storm so it wasn't done when he was pushing up the ramp into the natural. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:49 Fecalfeast wrote: Man GSL production values have come a long way GSL finals haven't | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:49 Elentos wrote: Stats' micro is looking well off today. I'll give credit to Rogue for 1 thing though, he contaminated storm so it wasn't done when he was pushing up the ramp into the natural. Oh I didn't see that, beautiful move that just enabled his timing attack. | ||
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Russano
United States425 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
Sad but true, seems to be a blowout more often than not | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:52 Cricketer12 wrote: Thisis less hype than I was expecting It's a PvZ grand finals, of course it is :D | ||
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Penev
28463 Posts
let's hope I bring luck come on Stats | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
 Stats has been a bit off today, and Rogue's play has been exceptional. All the little things like baiting out storm with mutas and contaminating the storm research have been nice touches to make sure his attacks work. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7203 Posts
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Penev
28463 Posts
On August 15 2020 17:56 Zambrah wrote: My prediction is coming true Stats winning 4-2? | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
Yeet | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 swarminfestor wrote: Fans do not like a villain, that's why they vote Stats. tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 Schelim wrote: tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games Well his first mistake is playing Zerg. And then the second strike is always killing fan favorites in garbage Bo7 matches. Like beating soO in the Blizzcon finals. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 Schelim wrote: tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games That he is better than the fan favorites and fans cannot digest that | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 Schelim wrote: tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games He has a history of putting an end to Cinderella stories and beating fan-favorites in dominating fashion Like soO at Blizzcon, and both the returnees DRG and Dream in this very tournament. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 Schelim wrote: tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games Well, he is always so dominant during his winning runs and he denied us several Maru vs Serral finals.In addition, he has a gambling propensity that is unique to Jin Air Green Wings (well Cure has this since he joined DPG). And probably the fact that he is quite discreet and doesn't show emotions, which seems to be important for some fans. In plus, he plays Zerg (jk don't ban me). | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:03 Elentos wrote: Well his first mistake is playing Zerg. And then the second strike is always killing fan favorites in garbage Bo7 matches. Like beating soO in the Blizzcon finals. Scarlett is a true hero for cheesing him out last season of GSL before he can resume his reign of terror. We were spared of the most low-key villainous zerg of the modern era. | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play. He used to be the signature swarmhost nydus guy, that hasn’t helped. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play. Well that's the thing for me, I don't enjoy it very much. Especially not with how Zerg has been for a while now. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 sneakyfox wrote: Now must be the time for the adept printer. An easy call, but very correct | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:05 Schelim wrote: well yeah, but if he fucking beats everyone, shouldn't that make him a fan favourite? i mean i certainly enjoy watching Rogue play. me too, but casters are the ones that make the narratives, and no one finds rogue so appealing I think. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:07 sneakyfox wrote: Well that's the thing for me, I don't enjoy it very much. Especially not with how Zerg has been for a while now. It's only been 3 years, come on | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:06 DieuCure wrote: Well, he is always so dominant during his winning runs and he denied us several Maru vs Serral finals.In addition, he has a gambling propensity that is unique to Jin Air Green Wings (well Cure has this since he joined DPG). And probably the fact that he is quite discreet and doesn't show emotions, which seems to be important for some fans. In plus, he plays Zerg (jk don't ban me). This reminds me of the "faceless Korean" trend. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:01 Schelim wrote: tbh i don't understand what's so villainous about Rogue. but then I don't pay much attention to all the drama and stuff around t he actual games He plays zerg | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
People love Serral and Reynor though | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
they are not koreans. Rogue is korean. | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
Well those are foreigners, that's a whole different issue. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
They will forever be Our Guys fighting the evil Korean overlords, no matter the context or how many championships they win. | ||
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Gina
241 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7203 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:12 sneakyfox wrote: They will forever be Our Guys fighting the evil Korean overlords, no matter the context or how many championships they win. i was in that train until the region lock | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
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Penev
28463 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:15 Penev wrote: LLLWWWW somehow Just go 4-0 we all have better things to do | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:15 Penev wrote: LLLWWWW somehow Don't stop believing | ||
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SetStndbySmn
United States657 Posts
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Z3nith
485 Posts
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Poopi
France12762 Posts
Why deny TY just to get 4-0ed Stats? TY could have won 1 or 2 I think. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:16 Anc13nt wrote: Stats has like 2% chance of winning now probably optimistic | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:16 Andi_Goldberger wrote: yet people still cry about zerg nerfs when they win every single important pvz match lmao What's funny to me is that there are still people who argue that Zerg wasn't broken in 2019, and this is them after being nerfed all year long in 2020 still dominating everything. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:16 Z3nith wrote: As much as people love to hate Rogue he's only using the tools given to him, lay this one at the door of the balance team. Nothing wrong with Rogue lol, he’s a phenomenal player. Just disappointing that Stats has absolutely no chance. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:17 Poopi wrote: Hahaha Why deny TY just to get 4-0ed Stats? TY could have won 1 or 2 I think. Even if TY was in poor form facing Rogue. TvZ is just more entertaining to watch in general compared to the stomp that's going on with this ZvP series. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:17 Schelim wrote: so we're kinda in a "racism" double bind then, huh? people dislike Zerg players and like Europeans Pretty much it. But IRL race > SC race. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:18 Fyzar wrote: Nothing wrong with Rogue lol, he’s a phenomenal player. Just disappointing that Stats has absolutely no chance. Sounds about right. Unless this turns around dramatically this is gonna be the worst playoff bracket in a while. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:16 Andi_Goldberger wrote: yet people still cry about zerg nerfs when they win every single important pvz match lmao This non-existent terran-patch didn't last too long. | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12. Just you wait for those shiny new void rays! | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:17 Schelim wrote: so we're kinda in a "racism" double bind then, huh? people dislike Zerg players and like Europeans We've been there for going on 3 years now. It's only that the longer that Zerg remains dominant the more people finally start to wake up to it. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:20 DieuCure wrote: This non-existent terran-patch didn't last too long. well it gave 2 terran championships, one being a tvT | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:20 Argonauta wrote: well it gave 2 terran championships, one being a tvT I’d take a “non-existent protoss patch” like that. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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darklycid
3381 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:19 OsaX Nymloth wrote: 5 drones dead? Damn, this will trigger an all in right? I knew it. Knee jerk reaction of zergs losing drones is to all-in x] | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
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IndyO
390 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:22 Argonauta wrote: Rogue donating a game to avoid the nerfs His Discord, Twitter, everything was flashing furiously after game 3 with messages from the lads. "ffs Rogue not like this, don't stop the gravy train" | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:22 Argonauta wrote: Rogue donating a game to avoid the nerfs Clearly a 200iq play. He may actually guarantee that if he goes far enough to donate just one more win before shutting Stats down 4-2 for the series. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7203 Posts
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Zzzapper
1791 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:26 MarianoSC2 wrote: Good guy Rogue with a donation to Stats Villains need redeeming qualities these days | ||
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
GSL 2017 : JAGW failing. GSL S1 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S2 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S3 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S1 2019 : JAGW wins. GSL S2 2019 : JAGW runner up. GSL S3 2019 : JAGW wins and runner up. GSL S1 2020 : JAGW failing. GSL S2 2020 : JAGW wins. Teamhouse advantage is no joke. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:30 DieuCure wrote: Since the end of Kespa SC2 : GSL 2017 : JAGW failing. GSL S1 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S2 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S3 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S1 2019 : JAGW wins. GSL S2 2019 : JAGW runner up. GSL S3 2019 : JAGW wins and runner up. GSL S1 2020 : JAGW failing. GSL S2 2020 : JAGW wins. Teamhouse advantage is no joke. Ah yes, imagine the championships Cure, Creator and Trap would've been unable to win if not for the teamhouse environment. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:30 Niravroh wrote: Please Rogue give us at least one more S T A T S B O Y S game. You can still be happy with a 4-2. kinds sad, you pledge for a Rogue missplay instead of Stats mastery for it . | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:32 Argonauta wrote: kinds sad, you pledge for a Rogue missplay instead of Stats mastery for it . Stats is not playing his best today, easier to hope for Rogue doing another shitty all-in tbh. | ||
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Penev
28463 Posts
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Niravroh
165 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:34 Niravroh wrote: Rogue can get tilted, just not in offline Bo7 matches, and definitely not in finals. Tilt is very rarely even a factor in this game. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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Penev
28463 Posts
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IndyO
390 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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Zzzapper
1791 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7203 Posts
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm so bored of Stats upsetting players to make it to the finals only to get thoroughly trashed by a Zerg. This is not the first time he's done this. Blame balance, not Stats | ||
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darklycid
3381 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Poaktree
165 Posts
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Alethios
New Zealand2765 Posts
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
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Highrock1
50 Posts
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
Enjoy your saturday all and congrats Rogue! | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
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LHK
204 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17633 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:30 DieuCure wrote: Since the end of Kespa SC2 : GSL 2017 : JAGW failing. GSL S1 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S2 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S3 2018 : JAGW wins. GSL S1 2019 : JAGW wins. GSL S2 2019 : JAGW runner up. GSL S3 2019 : JAGW wins and runner up. GSL S1 2020 : JAGW failing. GSL S2 2020 : JAGW wins. Teamhouse advantage is no joke. Do they still live together in a team house? Do they still have a coach? | ||
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rayl991
Afghanistan80 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
What a fitting end to an awful series though Gz Rogue | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Blame balance for not closing a wall against a ling allin. | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm so bored of Stats upsetting players to make it to the finals only to get thoroughly trashed by a Zerg. This is not the first time he's done this. Beating TY wasn’t even an upset, his form was shit to begin with. That said, fuck this final and fuck this matchup lol. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
40th finals -> 4-0 41th finals -> 4-1 trend. The real GOAT ! Can't wait for soO to lose 4-2 in next season finals ! | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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darklycid
3381 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 rayl991 wrote: probably the worst GSL finals ever Didn't watch rogue vs trap? | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
Balance isn't to blame when he keeps throwing away Warp Prisms or leaving his wall open. I'll blame balance partially for what happens in his series vs Zerg, but a lot of it is just him and his bad habits. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 Ramiz1989 wrote: Any games that were "ok"? :D Nope. | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 Ramiz1989 wrote: Any games that were "ok"? :D No | ||
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Zambrah
United States7203 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:40 sneakyfox wrote: Feels like the studio is lacking a lot of the fireworks etc we're used to? Did this series deserve fireworks though? :p | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 [PkF] Wire wrote: Rogue gifted g4 just so that we continue the 40th finals -> 4-0 41th finals -> 4-1 trend. The real GOAT ! Can't wait for soO to lose 4-2 in next season finals ! Mindblowing. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 rayl991 wrote: probably the worst GSL finals ever I don't think any finals can top Inca vs Nestea for that trophy. Seed vs MC is also a great contender. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:38 Highrock1 wrote: I blinked, what happened last game lings walked freely through the wall of stats | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Highways
Australia6102 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:40 sneakyfox wrote: Feels like the studio is lacking a lot of the fireworks etc we're used to? Why spend money on fireworks in an empty studio? | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
GG Rogue. What's the BO7 winrecord at now? | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 Ramiz1989 wrote: Any games that were "ok"? :D Game 3 was ok, Game 1 was tolerable. The rest were bleh. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:40 Zambrah wrote: Did this series deserve fireworks though? :p Afreeca deeply regretting framing season 2 as the revenge of the swarm. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
Ah, so classic GSL finals. Great thing I didn't wake up. Learned from my past mistakes. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7203 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:42 Ramiz1989 wrote: Ah, so classic GSL finals. Great thing I didn't wake up. Learned from my past mistakes. Maru - TY were good finals ! | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
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Elentos
55471 Posts
Almost 2 years ago. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:39 Die4Ever wrote: Do they still live together in a team house? Do they still have a coach? I would guess so, we need some insiders. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:41 Highways wrote: Blizzard gonna fix ZvP any time soon? If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes. Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
Anyway Rogue is just too good of a Zerg to ever lose to a Protoss in bo7. Shame TY didn't make it we could have gotten a much better finals I am sure. GG Rogue, for me personally now the GOAT of Sc2. No one has the kind of resume he does. Maybe 1 more GSL to clinch it even for the non-believers | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:45 showstealer1829 wrote: If by "fix" you mean "make it impossible for protoss to win anything" then yes. Suggesting improvements for Protoss gets you fired from the balance team Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss. I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair. | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:46 sneakyfox wrote: Was just trying to find the vod from the S1 finals but it seems Afreeca deleted it from youtube? wut? | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
It says it's unavailable in my country, how odd. Works for you? | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:46 sneakyfox wrote: Was just trying to find the vod from the S1 finals but it seems Afreeca deleted it from youtube? wut? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqohXWA5eg | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:47 Vindicare605 wrote: Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss. I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair. They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:48 sneakyfox wrote: It says it's unavailable in my country, how odd. Works for you? Yeah. I guess your country took a copyright issue with the music. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Argonauta wrote: Time to make finals bo9? You want MORE of this!? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Elentos wrote: They already cut one of the stargate buffs because it wasn't going in the direction they wanted. And these baneling changes they're doing have to be a troll to be honest. How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right. Banelings are needed to counter Marines though. They can't touch that, if they nerfed their actual damage vs Light then TvZ would break. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:45 MarianoSC2 wrote: The Rogue special... Funny but kinda sad at this point as well :D Anyway Rogue is just too good of a Zerg to ever lose to a Protoss in bo7. Shame TY didn't make it we could have gotten a much better finals I am sure. GG Rogue, for me personally now the GOAT of Sc2. No one has the kind of resume he does. Maybe 1 more GSL to clinch it even for the non-believers agree 2 GSL, 2 IEM, 1 Blizzcon... only Inno and Maru are in that league among active players, although his lack of 2nd places and semifinals definitely puts him behind Inno and Maru in my eyes. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:50 Elentos wrote: Yeah. I guess your country took a copyright issue with the music. Oh damn. Well I always knew I lived in a shit country. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:47 Vindicare605 wrote: Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss. I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair. I stand by my original statement | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Argonauta wrote: Time to make finals bo9? Should have been since LoTV released. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Argonauta wrote: Time to make finals bo9? Time to bring out some more ZvZ snipers coached by noregret | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:47 Vindicare605 wrote: Calm down, there are already balance test changes on the balance mod. 4 minor Stargate buffs and a nerf to Banelings vs Protoss. I don't like this either, but acting like Blizzard isn't attempting to fix this is not fair. ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:50 Fango wrote: Worst finals of all time. At least the other stomps had some hype going in. Any time Rogue plays a finals it's not worth watching. Until zerg gets nerfed at least Zerg got nerfed several times already. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:54 swarminfestor wrote: Zerg got nerfed several times already. Either not enough or not in the right places. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:54 swarminfestor wrote: Zerg got nerfed several times already. zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:53 Durnuu wrote: ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious They're dragging their feet about it but they are trying to fix it. They've given Protoss brand new mechanics, have gutted two of Zerg's late game units, have gutted Nydus Worms (still viable but terrible compared to how they used to be) and are now trying to improve the Stargate, they've also nerfed creep, and buffed Oracles to counter creep better. These are all things Blizzard has done for the sake of PvZ. The problem is that TvZ is balanced and TvP is arguably Protoss favored. It's hard to tweak the races for one particular match up without impacting the other two. Maybe it is time for them to do something drastic like removing the Ravager's ability to destroy Forcefields. There's not too many other unit interactions that are strictly PvZ related. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Starecat
934 Posts
Not that he made like some protoss on high stakes matches who forgot key upgrades but still nothing he did felt like a good play. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:57 Argonauta wrote: people talking about zerg nerfs but today Rogue didn't do any 200/200 mass baneling play or sh nydus play. Because there's a lot more wrong about zerg than this, and as Vindicare indirectly pointed out, it's time for the design patches to actually change the design of the game instead of listing 20 random changes and going through with 5 | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:56 Andi_Goldberger wrote: zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage. The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it. Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was. | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:00 Vindicare605 wrote: The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable Yes it has | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: They're dragging their feet about it but they are trying to fix it. They've given Protoss brand new mechanics, have gutted two of Zerg's late game units, have gutted Nydus Worms (still viable but terrible compared to how they used to be) and are now trying to improve the Stargate, they've also nerfed creep, and buffed Oracles to counter creep better. These are all things Blizzard has done for the sake of PvZ. The problem is that TvZ is balanced and TvP is arguably Protoss favored. It's hard to tweak the races for one particular match up without impacting the other two. Maybe it is time for them to do something drastic like removing the Ravager's ability to destroy Forcefields. There's not too many other unit interactions that are strictly PvZ related. But you can easily address PvZ directly by using shield damage, as with EMP. Not sure why they're not doing that. Also, TvZ is balanced? Not so sure about that. Seems to me that the matchup still doesn't work properly with zerg having too easy a time defending and too good/cheap options for harass and counter-attacks. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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machinus
United States290 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:00 Vindicare605 wrote: The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it. Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was. The queen nerfs were for buffs that should never have been in the game to begin with. It's shocking that people were still cool with it for so long. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:53 Durnuu wrote: ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed... | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:59 Morbidius wrote: Protoss players complaining about lategame Zerg because of a failed wall that doesn't happen to master players. Protoss is really the new Terran. Because that was the only map... Also this is funny cause Zerg is the original whiner race :D | ||
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Elentos
55471 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:50 Vindicare605 wrote: How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right. If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games where mass bane is seen Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:02 Fango wrote: The queen nerfs were for buffs that should never have been in the game to begin with. It's shocking that people were still cool with it for so long. I never was, I'm just shocked that it has done so little to affect winrates. There have been air based metas against Zerg before even when Queens had 8 range that Protoss was taking advantage of. None of them have come back yet, Stargate play still looks helpless vs Zerg despite their main defensive AA getting nerfed. Really goes to show just how overbuffed Zerg has been for so long. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:03 MarianoSC2 wrote: I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed... And we should just accept that? That every time a Protoss player goes into a grand finals vs Zerg there is a 90% chance that they will lose? | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Penev
28463 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:04 Elentos wrote: If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter. So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do? I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:08 Penev wrote: So what would be a good Zerg nerf that affects ZvP but not ZvT (as much)? Reducing damage to shields. | ||
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Penev
28463 Posts
That's always an option indeed. Might be worth advocating for. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote: So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do? I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit. TvZ was fine when banes had 30hp.... | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
Rogue totally outclassing | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
Sure but how does lowering Baneling HP help Protoss at all? The primary thing that Banelings are used to kill in PvZ are Zealots and Adepts, neither unit has the range, DPS or micro capability to counter Banelings the way that Marines and Marauders do. So all you're doing by nerfing their HP is making them easier to kill with Storm, Collosus or Stalkers, and the difference there is minimal. The reason they don't nerf Baneling hit points is because it has a BIGGER impact in TvZ than in PvZ. The Pros already ran the numbers on this the last time it was proposed. It's a bigger change in the match up that doesn't need it. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:15 Whatson wrote: Wow, impressed that Stats was able to win a game Rogue totally outclassing He didn't really win that game so much as Rogue donated it to him. You can see for yourself though, it's a very short game. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:17 Vindicare605 wrote: Sure but how does lowering Baneling HP help Protoss at all? The primary thing that Banelings are used to kill in PvZ are Zealots and Adepts, neither unit has the range, DPS or micro capability to counter Banelings the way that Marines and Marauders do. So all you're doing by nerfing their HP is making them easier to kill with Storm, Collosus or Stalkers, and the difference there is minimal. The reason they don't nerf Baneling hit points is because it has a BIGGER impact in TvZ than in PvZ. The Pros already ran the numbers on this the last time it was proposed. It's a bigger change in the match up that doesn't need it. Would help more than useless damage nerfs | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
This has been like this for years and years, design changes are needed. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:19 Arcanefrost wrote: Pvz is just unwinnable for a macro player like stats at this level. The only way to win a series is by surprising the zerg, and only the likes of parting can pull that off. Stats is just not that kind of protoss, and his style doesn't work at all in top level pvz. This has been like this for years and years, design changes are needed. Blame lotv eco | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:18 Vindicare605 wrote: He didn't really win that game so much as Rogue donated it to him. You can see for yourself though, it's a very short game. A win's a win. Same way that game 5 was a win for Rogue. | ||
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serralfan18
99 Posts
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:24 Whatson wrote: A win's a win. Same way that game 5 was a win for Rogue. Rogue also intended to throw that game to shake up things a bit but he accidentally kill Stats. | ||
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machinus
United States290 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:25 serralfan18 wrote: Really great games! Dont let the 4-1 score fool you. These games were super close. Congrats to Rogue on another win! Not sure what stream you were watching. None of the games were close at all. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:32 machinus wrote: Not sure what stream you were watching. None of the games were close at all. Obvious troll is obvious. | ||
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machinus
United States290 Posts
Is it, though? :/ | ||
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Legan
Finland370 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:06 Z3nith wrote: And we should just accept that? That every time a Protoss player goes into a grand finals vs Zerg there is a 90% chance that they will lose? Well it's unrealistic to think Blizz will invest in redesigning their game at this point. So yes, just accept that races work in a certain way and some players are so good they master the best race to a point it looks unbeatable. Stats playstyle will never beat player such as Rogue in The bo7. On the other hand, I rarely see Rogue win against aggro tosses like Parting and Zest in bo3. So is the game designed in a balanced way? Surely not. If all races just hold back and macro up Zerg will crush the other two with 200 supply against 150 in a couple of minutes. Is it fair? Probably not. Does the game allow all races to have a chance to win under certain circumstances? Yes. And I think that is the best we will ever gonna get | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:37 Legan wrote: One thing I find funny is, how long so many of Zerg units have been over tuned making Zerg overpowered or imbalanced, while so many great or good Zerg players just failed to win, and only last year it became considered a problem after year of Serral. Like, what soO and Dark were doing during 2017 or 2018? If soO and Dark didn't choke they would have won more than anyone else. Hell by last year even they were picking up world championships. Also Rogue's year came before Serrals, and people complained about balance then as well, they just stopped when Serral became #1 zerg. | ||
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120720
95 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:37 Legan wrote: One thing I find funny is, how long so many of Zerg units have been over tuned making Zerg overpowered or imbalanced, while so many great or good Zerg players just failed to win, and only last year it became considered a problem after year of Serral. Like, what soO and Dark were doing during 2017 or 2018? I think its mostly because back then protoss all ins actually still worked and there were multiple viable ones. Today we only have glaives and we all know how that bulid goes 90% of the time. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:15 swarminfestor wrote: It seems like the only way toss can win championship is to do not allow Rogue to reach the final. No more balance whining. So far in 2020, the only Protoss who won a Premier tournament, won the tournament because a Top Zerg wasn't present, and that's Neeb from ESL NA. Coincidence? I think not. At this point this isn't even balance whining, just spitting out facts | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:49 Argonauta wrote: Time to make finals bo9? I think it would be bad for players health, even if 2 more games isn't insane, what if we end up with Dark vs TY 30min macrogames each map ? They are getting older. | ||
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Swisslink
2950 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:53 Durnuu wrote: ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Regarding the final today: in StarCraft II the opposite of soccer seems to be the case. A good defense might win games and bring you far in many tournaments. It does not win you tournaments though. Stats seems to be in desperate need of a more diverse approach to the game if he aims to be on top again. Otherwise players like Rogue will just keep crushing him, imo. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:23 Swisslink wrote: Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? | ||
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Swisslink
2950 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:27 AzAlexZ wrote: Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken". | ||
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Solio1
26 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:45 Solio1 wrote: is Rogue the #1 in earnings right now ? I think so with the total of $870k++ earnings. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:27 AzAlexZ wrote: Yeah but in the last 3 years Zergs winning other huge tournaments like IEM (Rogue, soO, Rogue), Blizzcon (Rogue, Serral, Dark), GSL vs The World (Serral and Serral), WCS (Serral/Reynor) and other tournaments doesn't make it clear for you? Honestly if you ignore GSL the picture is very clear: Zerg is the most broken race in the history of the game and has been that way for 3 years. WCS/IEM and Blizzcon(the ''global'' tournaments) haven't seen a non Zerg player win in 3 years | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24523 Posts
Keep forgetting to use spoiler free embeds and getting spoiled. With the caveat that I feel it’s considerably more pronounced in a Bo5 or a bo7 especially, man Zerg are so flexible and have options, or alternatively Protoss is very inflexible in the matchup. Rogue is a great player and I think we only saw a 6/10 Stats today. Likewise Trap in his finals, didn’t play amazingly either but not train wreck level either and they just got absolutely steamrolled. It’s pretty brutal to watch and this is after Nyduses got toned down and Infestors considerably nerfed too. Hm, think we should just spitball preposterous asymmetric PvZ ideas at this stage. Terrans have EMP, which has other utility but has clear Protoss-specific dimensions. Overall Blizz don’t seem too found of interactions that only occur between two of the game’s races but I think investigating WombaT’s Ridiculous IdeaTM Oracle - New unit ability Creep Eradication Field Active ability. Energy cost - Fuck knows /second. Upon activation a field is generated that totally isn’t a recoloured guardian shield and can eliminate rumours without vision. The rationale behind this change is to enable more gateway ‘sharking’ to control the spread of creep while enabling non-committal or committed aggression that is more smoothly. A Protoss player can open oracles off Stargate and keep them active in a harassment capacity for longer as they don’t need to be withdrawn to grant creep vision. Alternatively Protoss players can free up robotics production for units with more defensive or offensive capability by skipping observers at phases of the game and still being able to clear creep. In theory this doesn’t greatly augment the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit too much either. I mean I am spitballing terrible ideas of course, on the other hand I think the central idea of giving race-specific abilities to try and fix issues with one matchup might be the way to go more often. PvP is in a good spot and PvT isn’t terrible either these days, 2/3 isn’t bad but some of the attempts to fix PvZ might damage the fragile balancing act of those matchups. | ||
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Aesto
44 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:36 Swisslink wrote: Just judging the tournament winners is just not a good approach. Best example: Zerg won the first two GSL seasons while being in a horrendeous state. I am not saying that is the case here, but you can't just compare the titles and claim "yep, broken". You both have a point. The problem is not the overall PvZ winrate, it is the winrate of top Zergs against top Protoss in Bo5 and Bo7 games. And the reason behind that is the LoTV economy. I doubt they can get around that fundamental problem through unit buffs, because it will either cause problems in TvZ/PvT, or they would have to bite the bullet and introduce lower damage done against shields for multiple Zerg units, which they are understandably reluctant to do. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
With these maps, as long as zerg doesn't get caught off guard (by insane risks from the protoss), the top zergs know how to easily counter pretty much everything. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24523 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:23 Swisslink wrote: Broken would suggest that Protoss just has been getting slapped left and right in the matchup for three years straight. Which is - statistically - just not the case, no matter how often it is repeated. Does Zerg have an edge in the matchup? Hard to argue against it. Especially when Rogue plays, there seems to be a clear edge for the Zerg player. However, the margin is not even remotely as big as it is so often made out to be. If it was, Protoss would not have had the edge in 4 of the past 8 GSL seasons (2020S1, 2019S2, 2018S3, 2018S2), with another season being completely even (2019S1), leaving 3 seasons where Zerg was even above 50%. In a broken matchup, the overall winrate in GSL over the past 3 years (which was your claim) would be above 52% in favour of Zerg. Regarding the final today: in StarCraft II the opposite of soccer seems to be the case. A good defense might win games and bring you far in many tournaments. It does not win you tournaments though. Stats seems to be in desperate need of a more diverse approach to the game if he aims to be on top again. Otherwise players like Rogue will just keep crushing him, imo. I’m unsure what the consensus is here. I don’t think people actually think the matchup is unwinnable, just has a terrible dynamic. One that does stretch to broken levels in bigger series. I’d have to see the stats on it, just going off intuition. My intuition being that PvZ is fine in win rates in overall series. But within that breakdown Bo3 or less will be approaching balanced, Bo5 will see Protoss drop off a bit and Bo7 will see Protoss fall off a cliff. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game. Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. Protoss has been balanced around forcefield before and it never made for good games, no thanks. | ||
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Swisslink
2950 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:42 Aesto wrote: You both have a point. The problem is not the overall PvZ winrate, it is the winrate of top Zergs against top Protoss in Bo5 and Bo7 games. And the reason behind that is the LoTV economy. I doubt they can get around that fundamental problem through unit buffs, because it will either cause problems in TvZ/PvT, or they would have to bite the bullet and introduce lower damage done against shields for multiple Zerg units, which they are understandably reluctant to do. Here I think we can agree. At the very top, there seems to be an issue in ZvP in very specific situation. Even though the very top serms to roll over Protoss, we still have a kind of even winrate. And this is mainly the case because Protoss does pretty well in shorter series. I have literally no idea how you could fix these issues without fucking one race or the other. ZvP, since the very start, had it‘s design issues that were stupid for both races, yet these design issues never really appeared to influence the overall. I think ar this point it‘d be easier if one race would clearly dominate the other to balance it out. | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
I just think opening stargate automatically puts you at a disadvantage and is easily countered by zerg. I never thought a style like Stats uses could ever beat a zerg like Rogue in a bo7. Look at how Trap has struggled in PvZ until he started using the stalker, sentry, colossus, ruptor unit comp. That's all PartinG and Trap do right now in PvZ and it works. Games 1 and 2 especially were just hard to watch with the way Stats plays. On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game. Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
On August 15 2020 22:00 Morbidius wrote: Protoss has been balanced around forcefield before and it never made for good games, no thanks. Not like it's making good games now | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
On August 15 2020 20:21 AzAlexZ wrote: So far in 2020, the only Protoss who won a Premier tournament, won the tournament because a Top Zerg wasn't present, and that's Neeb from ESL NA. Coincidence? I think not. At this point this isn't even balance whining, just spitting out facts I genuinely believe that Serral consciously plays bad strategies against protoss to lower his map winrate because if he just played his main macro build again and again he'd have something like 95%+ win and the nerfs would come faster. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I didn't think it would be that much of a one-sided stomp though. Oof. I saw the youtube video was 2:20 and got concerned. Once I realized there was 45 minutes of preshow then it became obvious. My thoughts on the state of PvZ at the pro level are already posted in the latest balance patch thread so I won't post them here. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
-Stargate openings are useless, that means bye bye one of the only tech tree opening Protoss can do. -zerg can't be pressured effectively anymore. You want to pressure zerg to stop them from expanding, but there's no way to do that anymore. Even if you go adept and kill 4 drones the Zerg is just making 8 behind it, while having a big army of ling/roach and 3 queens, making it impossible to follow up on the harass. Same if you go Oracle. Zerg players have gotten good, to the point where balance problems are showing. Harass doesn't do good damage anymore as zergs learned how to deal with itand you end up with the Zerg having better economy than you, and better army. Even if the army is equal the Zerg just storms the proofs with the economy. Lotv economy doesn't help either being extremely Zerg favored. Changing the maps is not an option. Sure you can make expansions harder to defend but that would literally just make it worse for propose and would force them to all-in even more. Blizzard proposed changes? Nerfing the baneling a little bit and buffing the VR speed? Reading their reasoning they want you to make VR to clear creep and kill overlords? How does that help against the intrinsic problem of the matchup? Zerg economy needs to be nerfed. But they won't do that so protoss needs to be buffed. Either harass options, or protons army so they are more scary and can kill a greedy Zerg more easily (as right now it's pretty hard in the early/mid). Want to also buff the VR? Make it's standard stack better vs light, and the ability better vs armored, that would be an interesting interaction. Right now the VR is just a worse flying immortal that's only useful for 10 seconds | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
-Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject. This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ -Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject. This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here. From a casual viewer, it's ridiculous watching how a single unit is able to defend frontal pushes, fend off aerial harass, and expand creep spread for map control and increase mobility of units - ALL IN THE EARLY GAME! It's also ridiculous that a Protoss with 30+ non-worker supply can't even effectively harass and pressure a Zarg with 10+ non-worker supply. Yes, in short, the Queen is annoying af.... | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 15 2020 22:30 mikedupp wrote: But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game?The only thing you could do to Bile is add 1-2 seconds to the cooldown. Buffing Force Fields would break the game. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
On August 16 2020 00:55 RKC wrote: From a casual viewer, it's ridiculous watching how a single unit is able to defend frontal pushes, fend off aerial harass, and expand creep spread for map control and increase mobility of units - ALL IN THE EARLY GAME! It's also ridiculous that a Protoss with 30+ non-worker supply can't even effectively harass and pressure a Zarg with 10+ non-worker supply. Yes, in short, the Queen is annoying af.... its ridiculous usefull af, they should do more nerf to the Queen is the real issue here as you describe. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:18 temporary1 wrote: If Rogue wins one more map, he becomes 3rd player to have same amount or more premier wins in last 3 years than all protoss players combined (6), others being Maru (6) and Serral, who has twice as many with 12. There. Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games. Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 16 2020 00:45 BonitiilloO wrote: Zerg can be fixed really EZ -Remove Queen Transfusion ability. -Limit the amount of Queen Per Game 6 or increase the supply from to 2 to 3 -Queen will spawn 1 less larva from inject. This can fix all the Match ups and don't break any of them. Queen is the real issue here. lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:25 Vindicare605 wrote: lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this. how so? Queen is the most versatile unit in the whole Starcraft 2 history. it needs to be look at. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:25 Vindicare605 wrote: lol. Zerg would be completely crippled with this. It's funny reading some of the suggestions made by players that have no clue how huge impact their suggestions would have. I don't even like the Queen as a unit, I don't like most of the macro mechanics/units in SC2, but this suggestion is just dumb. It's like back in the HOTS days hearing the suggestion from Terran players how Banelings should do friendly fire, because Tanks and Widow Mines have it... | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:11 temporary1 wrote: There. Even so, I agree that balance overall is not that far off. In my opinion the biggest problem related to balance is general animosity agaist protoss which often seems to lead to whining and "how to fix" propositions very early (like that GSL super tournament when protoss got nerf hammered even though P player didn't even win), resulting in protoss nerfs when they come out with something that can reliably win games. Who here believes Serral's record of 12 premier wins or Maru's 4 consecutive GSL wins would have been possible (or simply put, allowed) with protoss? If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:35 JJH777 wrote: If it was Neeb it maybe would have been allowed. If a Korean Protoss started doing that they would have been nerfed ages ago yeah. It's not the same thing, because Protoss is designed differently. When Protoss are dominant it's always ONE BUILD that is dominant. When Maru was winning his 4 straight titles he was doing it with a variety of styles in a variety of metas. Protoss only ever usually gets super strong when one super strong build is discovered and EVERYONE starts abusing it. Even when Maru was winning he was the only Terran that was putting up results, foreign Terrans were still being massacred. Think back to the game's history to all of the periods where Protoss is dominating. It's always on the back of one or TWO at the most super powerful builds in one particular match up. You can call that a lack of flexibility and bad design if you want, but it's how Protoss is. What Protoss needs is fundamental design changes that means that they don't have to rely on that kind of meta to be successful. Guys like me have been saying this for almost 10 years. As far as Zerg goes, they get treated by Blizzard differently and I do agree it has a lot to do with how popular they are in the foreign scene. The fact that Infestor/Broodlord was allowed to be dominant for over 6 months last year was extremely frustrating, and the fact that it took them a year to nerf Nydus Worms when it was obvious from even as far back as last year's IEM Katowice in February that they needed to be nerfed. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
I don't really think any particular unit or comp is the issue, it's the fact that a good zerg is always aware of what's happening long before it has a chance of hurting him significantly, and so he can easily prepare. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17633 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:05 Morbidius wrote: Honestly if you ignore GSL the picture is very clear: Zerg is the most broken race in the history of the game and has been that way for 3 years. WCS/IEM and Blizzcon(the ''global'' tournaments) haven't seen a non Zerg player win in 3 years Instead of ignoring GSL, just ignore Maru's victories and it still looks really bad for non-zergs lol | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:31 Ramiz1989 wrote: It's funny reading some of the suggestions made by players that have no clue how huge impact their suggestions would have. I don't even like the Queen as a unit, I don't like most of the macro mechanics/units in SC2, but this suggestion is just dumb. It's like back in the HOTS days hearing the suggestion from Terran players how Banelings should do friendly fire, because Tanks and Widow Mines have it... bro im not suggesting the to be all apply but you can start from one of them so, Queen is broken af. | ||
Waxangel
United States33239 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19215 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:30 BonitiilloO wrote: how so? Queen is the most versatile unit in the whole Starcraft 2 history. it needs to be look at. I would rather trash the adept and empower gateway units more effectively. I want protoss to be able to get to the mid game without needing to kill 20 drone cost effectively. I would also make it so carriers can't be grabbed the viper to empower the late game. | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:00 FrkFrJss wrote: But it’s less a buff to FF and more a nerf to bike. Why would that break the game? If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss. On August 16 2020 02:33 Waxangel wrote: sup guys, is Rogue the greatest of all time? Yes | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
I guess that'a design decision. Does Blizzard want the game to be just select your timing attack and the game is decided on that, or do they want to have a stable late game. There's really almost been no extended period of stable late game in the 10 years of SC2 because of this game's design. If they want to have a stable late game, then they have to figure out a way to not make Zerg more susceptible to timing attacks, but bring the races onto similar footing for late game. Which I frankly don't see them figuring out because no real effort has been done to do this for 10 years. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 16 2020 02:33 Waxangel wrote: sup guys, is Rogue the greatest of all time? Obviously. Why should doubt it since his Blizcon win in 2017? | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:46 Vindicare605 wrote: It's not the same thing, because Protoss is designed differently. When Protoss are dominant it's always ONE BUILD that is dominant. When Maru was winning his 4 straight titles he was doing it with a variety of styles in a variety of metas. Protoss only ever usually gets super strong when one super strong build is discovered and EVERYONE starts abusing it. Even when Maru was winning he was the only Terran that was putting up results, foreign Terrans were still being massacred. Think back to the game's history to all of the periods where Protoss is dominating. It's always on the back of one or TWO at the most super powerful builds in one particular match up. You can call that a lack of flexibility and bad design if you want, but it's how Protoss is. What Protoss needs is fundamental design changes that means that they don't have to rely on that kind of meta to be successful. Guys like me have been saying this for almost 10 years. As far as Zerg goes, they get treated by Blizzard differently and I do agree it has a lot to do with how popular they are in the foreign scene. The fact that Infestor/Broodlord was allowed to be dominant for over 6 months last year was extremely frustrating, and the fact that it took them a year to nerf Nydus Worms when it was obvious from even as far back as last year's IEM Katowice in February that they needed to be nerfed. I agree much with this. But, in my opinion, this doesn't necessarily have to do with protoss design, but process that is used in balancing. It really seems to that if/when protosses figure something out, it becomes widely used and gets nerfed. But in the nerfing process, Blizzard usually doesn't just tweak units, they gut them and then in turn give some other unit some disproportionate buff. Then some of the P's learn to use it, and cycle repeats. Now they are buffing Void rays, it seems. VR seems like an unit that should be balanced around, as making it just so good that it isn't either overpowered or useless seems to be difficult job that would prolly require iterations, maybe lots of em. On the other hand, especially in zvp, zerg often seems to have wide enough advantage in normal games that they don't even have to resort their seemingly overpowered units, like Swarm host. They still have that ace in their sleeves, and even if it isn't used, they may passively affect games (can't open this way / can't pick this map / etc.). Even when protoss was winning tournaments during blink era, it wasn't a horde of non-Koreans taking titles, it was established Korean pros that were contenders and champions even before blink era. I don't remember any high level tournament wins for non-Koreans during that era, and still chats were screaming power of protoss. During I think years of zerg things like Swarm hosts and Broodlords, I don't think the animosity got even close to what protoss saw, even though many SH/BL -era players who won tournaments were non-Korean. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW. | ||
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rayl991
Afghanistan80 Posts
On August 16 2020 01:55 Nebuchad wrote: My two cents, zerg is by design the most reaction-based race, and right now it has enough tools that it's always the fault of the zerg if he doesn't know that something is coming. This is magnified in PvZ because it's a match-up that relies on compositions more than TvZ does: if your army is good vs their army, you're probably gonna win. I don't really think any particular unit or comp is the issue, it's the fact that a good zerg is always aware of what's happening long before it has a chance of hurting him significantly, and so he can easily prepare. This is exactly what is wrong with the ZvX matchup which imo is unbalanced, if Zerg defends the early game pressure without taking too much damage, Zerg wins when it reaches late game. If Terran and Protoss did not pressure and choose to sit back, Zerg will snowball out of control and win late game. T & P are forced to pressure the Zerg early game and must dealt sufficient damage to prevent Zerg from snowballing. Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On August 16 2020 04:14 rayl991 wrote: Top Zerg like Reynor and Serral will usually scout often to see whats coming and react accordingly. If they lost the game, its usually their own mistakes and not the brilliance of their opponent That's the case for anyone | ||
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Back2Back
23 Posts
On August 15 2020 21:54 FrkFrJss wrote: I wonder if some of the pressure of PvZ is a result of the ravager. It seems to me that if Protoss feel their late game is equal or superior to Zerg, then the main issue would be on how to enable Protoss to more readily get to that point in time with less damage. From my limited knowledge and from what I’ve observed, ravagers significantly decrease the effectiveness of sentries, particularly the force field. Now, I know the FF has historically been the second most hated ability after warp gate, but it’s still in the game. Thus, perhaps there could be a nerf to corrosive bile to reduce the breaking of forcefield to half. I’m not sure how that would work given the model of the forcefield, but I think Protoss needs slightly less gimmicky ways of defense that are not overcharges or batteries. If we restore a bit more utility to the FF, then Protoss take less damage overall and make it to the late game easier. It also means banelings can remain unchanged. Alternatively, if the FF change is not good, I think corrosive bike could be nerfed to do a bit less damage against shields. It’s inelegant, but it does decrease the effectiveness of ravagers against Protoss. This is actually the exact conclusion I came up with as well. Protoss units are more expensive and beefier than any other race but they are also extremely fragile and easy to over-run. This is why they have the Forcefield ability. It allows them to control space a little bit. Protoss does not struggle against Terran because Terran doesn't have a mass produced unit that can nullify this ability (until ghosts which are high tech and expensive). Ravagers allow them to break down those Forcefields too easily. You can change the way that bile interacts with Forcefield which wont affect TvP. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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mikedupp
233 Posts
On August 16 2020 04:45 Back2Back wrote: This is actually the exact conclusion I came up with as well. Protoss units are more expensive and beefier than any other race but they are also extremely fragile and easy to over-run. This is why they have the Forcefield ability. It allows them to control space a little bit. Protoss does not struggle against Terran because Terran doesn't have a mass produced unit that can nullify this ability (until ghosts which are high tech and expensive). Ravagers allow them to break down those Forcefields too easily. You can change the way that bile interacts with Forcefield which wont affect TvP. Corrosive Bile has a 7 second cooldown. The cooldown is just way too fast I feel like. Making it 9-10 would really help IMO. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 16 2020 04:55 TentativePanda wrote: A Zerg wins GSL and we need to solve “intrinsic balance issues”. Terran wins GSL and we get GOM TvT memes lol Blame 2019. Zerg has been dominating for 3 years now, but 2019 was historically lopsided. And yet even after that many nerfs they're still on top. Just goes to show how broken they were in 2019. People are fed up with it. It's pretty easy to see that. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Korea standings: Rogue #1 Serral #10 Dark #11 Solar #13 DongRaeGu #14 soO # 15 Reynor #19 Average zerg rank: 11.9 Average terran rank: 7.4 Average protoss rank: 11.3 Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Circuit standings: Serral #1 Reynor #2 Lambo #12 Elazer #14 RiSky #15 Vanya #17 Average zerg rank: 10.2 Average terran rank: 10 Average protoss rank: 11.3 These numbers don't seem to indicate that zerg is disproportionately unbalanced. It's Rogue, Serral, and Reynor winning a bunch of stuff, and then the rest of the zergs floundering way down in the standings. Idk what the solution is, but I would have expected that if zerg was so imba we would see more zergs being generally successful, even if they're not winning championships. | ||
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Monochromatic
United States992 Posts
On August 16 2020 05:32 Niravroh wrote: I know this is an overused argument, but is it really too far to ask if Zerg is being flattered by higher skilled players? Sure, soO and Dark got some championships last year, but zerg has been nerfed multiple times since then. If we're looking at EPT rankings, then zerg isn't doing particularly well. Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Korea standings: Rogue #1 Serral #10 Dark #11 Solar #13 DongRaeGu #14 soO # 15 Reynor #19 Average zerg rank: 11.9 Average terran rank: 7.4 Average protoss rank: 11.3 Zerg ranks from the top 20 in the EPT Circuit standings: Serral #1 Reynor #2 Lambo #12 Elazer #14 RiSky #15 Vanya #17 Average zerg rank: 10.2 Average terran rank: 10 Average protoss rank: 11.3 These numbers don't seem to indicate that zerg is disproportionately unbalanced. It's Rogue, Serral, and Reynor winning a bunch of stuff, and then the rest of the zergs floundering way down in the standings. Idk what the solution is, but I would have expected that if zerg was so imba we would see more zergs being generally successful, even if they're not winning championships. From April 21st, 2019 to June 6th, 2020 there had been a zerg in the final of every premier tournament. Zerg has been incredibly consistent. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
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leublix
493 Posts
Stats should have known he can't just play normal and win. He also didn't seem to be totally on point, making small mistakes in the first few games. | ||
Kinky
United States4126 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg/videos If you want to answer, please PM, as I don't want to read this thread before watching the final. Spoilers and all. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
On August 16 2020 06:33 Kinky wrote: Stats played some pretty uninspiring openings and Rogue knew how to deal with everything. As much as I was rooting for a close Stats, I can't help but wonder who his practice partners were that made him think these strats were viable against someone of Rogue's caliber. The strats for the most part were fine enough, but the execution was no where near what we normally expect from Stats | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Niravroh
165 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:12 Bagration wrote: Any recommended games to watch? Literally not a single one, if you're interested in good back and forth games. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:22 Niravroh wrote: Literally not a single one, if you're interested in good back and forth games. Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19215 Posts
On August 16 2020 03:24 Anc13nt wrote: Reminds me somewhat of Brood war actually. Hard for protoss to beat zerg in most stages of the game but they are most likely to win with a very a crisp timing attack. If they play a vanilla standard build, they are usually slightly behind against zerg. Difference is that protoss is favoured in BW ultra lategame (not the lategame though) whereas that doesn't seem to be the case in SC2. Edit: That said, I would guess based on statistics, PvZ is more balanced in SC2 than BW. Maybe based on stats if you include all maps, but maps play a huge role in balancing BW. Also, it's clear cut why a Protoss lost in BW and there is always a way things could have been done differently. Who has the advantage also oscillates a lot through a 15-20 minute game. You rarely see a game in SC2 where Protoss can lose an advantage and then gain it back. Watching a TvZ in SC2 is the best thing ever. Since WoL the matchup has had tons of back and forth metas.Since LoTV, PvZ just really hasn't ever been that way. I personally loathe thinking either this PvZ will be a blowout or Protoss will have done something magical like Classic vs Dark. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17930 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:31 Bagration wrote: Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn I realize I posted in the wrong thread (posted in preview thread and will delete it now). But as I said there, the only thing that made this final better than Nestea vs Inca is that Stats did manage to take a game. If you *have* to watch a game, do game 3, as it at least looks like it might be interesting for a short while. Oh, and I was cheering for Stats, and given the way he played to get here, he deserved to be in the finals, but the finals games were truly 2011 standard GSL final. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24523 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:35 BisuDagger wrote: Maybe based on stats if you include all maps, but maps play a huge role in balancing BW. Also, it's clear cut why a Protoss lost in BW and there is always a way things could have been done differently. Who has the advantage also oscillates a lot through a 15-20 minute game. You rarely see a game in SC2 where Protoss can lose an advantage and then gain it back. Watching a TvZ in SC2 is the best thing ever. Since WoL the matchup has had tons of back and forth metas.Since LoTV, PvZ just really hasn't ever been that way. I personally loathe thinking either this PvZ will be a blowout or Protoss will have done something magical like Classic vs Dark. PvZ is, if you don’t balance with specific maps to my knowledge more actually imbalanced in BW than it’s been in SC2 Different game of course, and more marginal gains can be forced with brute mechanics over a long period. Granted this is mostly from watching FPVoDs of this Bisu fellow that you may or may not of heard of, but he’s pretty good. Anyway in BW PvZ in theory Protoss is also trying to constrain the Zerg growth. What feels markedly different is that this occurs in multiple phases. You’ve your corsairs, DTs and various shenanigans. Storm drops later on, plus the threat of big frontal attacks as well. As you say, PvZ in SC2 has a few damage phases. The difference seems to be if you miss those windows or the Zerg defends perfectly there you’re kind of boned | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
The contrast is between, like, Showtime not being ready for a muta switch and Reynor not being ready for a glaive build. Should Showtime have seen that spire? Yeah probably, and he will most of the time, but there is a percentage of games where he won't see it despite his best efforts, I think we're all accepting that this is a thing that can happen. If Reynor loses to a glaive build, today that is just kind of silly. How was he not ready for this to happen? He should have been. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote: https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.png I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. I havent been following super closely for a few years but the best player in a matchup being sub 50% definitely feels like a problem. | ||
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neveranexit
14 Posts
I had to log in for the first time in over 7 years to beg the community and Blizzard to have some sympathy for Protoss. I'm used to Protoss being the weakest race of the three (I've been watching StarCraft since 2007), but I've never felt Protoss feel as powerless as they are now. It's so depressing. The last good memory of competitive StarCraft as a Protoss fan is SoS vs Jaedong in 2013. Am I supposed to be ok with a handful of Super Tournament wins over 5 years? It makes me so sad. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 16 2020 02:35 mikedupp wrote: I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss?If biles only removed half a force field, protoss would destroy zerg. It's hard to explain, I think you'd have to visually see how strong his idea would make 2 base all in strats from toss. | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
On August 16 2020 12:39 FrkFrJss wrote: I can definitely understand how certain FF changes could make 2 base allins (I remember the PartinG soul train) too powerful, but I guess my question is what makes corrosive bile taking out half of a FF too strong for 2 base allins when Zerg previously had no ability to destroy FF in HotS, and they weren't overly destroyed by FF. Is it the 12 worker economy that makes the allins faster (and thus stronger) and too powerful for Protoss? There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction. LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with. | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
On August 16 2020 13:05 LHK wrote: There are so many things that contribute to Protoss being weaker in LOTV against Zerg - one of the ones that irks me the most is that forcefields and cannons were key to all early game Protoss defense. They allowed protoss to take a nexus first and be greedy and still defend, focusing more on gate count / tech and secure their third with cannon / sentry. I mean, i don't think anybody would argue that these two things were fundamental, core aspects of WOL/HOTS PvZ interaction. LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with. edit:doublepost pls remove (should really have coffee before i try to post somewhere rip) | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
LOTV destroyed both of these things with the ravager, it completely changed the game. I still remember my first game of LOTV Beta doing an FFE and just getting rolled by ravagers. PvZ since then has been a completely different beast, and one I'm not very fond of. It just doesn't feel like Protoss can ever get ahead, or be greedy, or have any options. They have to do the same thing every game, which Zerg can easily swat down because it's so predictable and honestly easy to deal with. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2717 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On August 16 2020 09:50 travis wrote: https://i.redd.it/w3o5rm4nh5h51.png I think this is pretty telling. Mirror matchup statistics aren't always indicative of the best players of that race, but can be. In terms of best mirror performance we have stats himself at a whopping 83%, the highest of any player in any mirror matchup. We also see him in a rather high 4th place for pvt and rather high 4th place for pvz. And yet both of those winrates are under 50%. Meanwhile zerg winrates are just plain through the roof. And this isn't even the most zerg dominated era right? Like, it's not even balance whine, it's balance facts. edit: my bad he's actually 52% pvt, so he's > 50% for that This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 16 2020 19:03 DieuCure wrote: This thing is quite bad, INno is ranked so high because he plays lowkeys players in online cups, meanwhile TY is the best terran player at the time and he is 7 rofl. Blizzard should found a cup with warchest or whatsoever and put in the very best players with a lot of matches, kind of Shoutcraft Kings but with bo played on every single map. Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17930 Posts
On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote: Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. I don't think it's bad. But I do think it's difficult to read much into it, as it is very low sample size. And then those monstrous 10 wins by Serral skew stuff pretty badly. And Serral has been absolutely monstrous in ZvP for a long time now. If you remove those 10 games, then you have 62 wins out of 118 matches played, which is a winrate of 53%, quite in line with the other match-ups. That said, Protoss is on the losing hand on both vT and vZ, and that is a problem. However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Is that due to Protoss being underpowered, or because of Trap, Parting and Stats just not being in top form? I mean... that's kinda the problem here, to decide on what is a representative sample. That image you posted goes with low sample size of the very top players in only the most important matches. Meanwhile Aligulac paints a very different picture, and PvZ looks super balanced and PvT is the worst balanced... in favor of *Protoss*! http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ So yeah, statistics can say whatever you want them to say in this case. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
On August 16 2020 21:05 Acrofales wrote: However, with Terran having Innovation, TY and Maru, and Zerg have Reynor, Serral, Rogue and Dark. In protoss I can't think of a single player who is in that elite tier. Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17930 Posts
On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote: Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. But then you aren't claiming that Z has been overpowered for the last year or so, but since 2017... the last time Protoss won the GSL and the year of Neeb. And that's quite a strong claim. Whereas for my position all I need to claim is that Maru and Serral went super sayan in 2018 and regardless of race balance rampaged their respective regions, and somewhat led the way for their entire race's resurgence. Maybe you can make a claim that they did that by finding new tactics and playstyles (or perfecting build orders on styles that already existed) that simply *cannot* be answered by Protoss and they need to be buffed. Alternatively, we need new Protoss blood (Astrea? A returning PartinG?) to do something similar. I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle. Given the state of the ladder, it's clear that only really right at the top Protoss is struggling vs Zerg. A far larger problem is that regardless of balance, the games are utterly unwatchable. Top Protoss players seem strangely out of form, but something needs to be done to bring some balance back at the top. And I really don't think bane damage or void ray speed is that fix. Maybe it's something as simple as increasing ravager cooldown, or maybe it's something more far-reaching to change the economy, like halving Nexus cost and warp-in speed (maybe as a cheap upgrade from the cyber core so you can't just immediately triple expand). | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12062 Posts
On August 16 2020 22:02 Acrofales wrote: But then you aren't claiming that Z has been overpowered for the last year or so, but since 2017... the last time Protoss won the GSL and the year of Neeb. And that's quite a strong claim. Whereas for my position all I need to claim is that Maru and Serral went super sayan in 2018 and regardless of race balance rampaged their respective regions, and somewhat led the way for their entire race's resurgence. Maybe you can make a claim that they did that by finding new tactics and playstyles (or perfecting build orders on styles that already existed) that simply *cannot* be answered by Protoss and they need to be buffed. Alternatively, we need new Protoss blood (Astrea? A returning PartinG?) to do something similar. I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle. Given the state of the ladder, it's clear that only really right at the top Protoss is struggling vs Zerg. A far larger problem is that regardless of balance, the games are utterly unwatchable. Top Protoss players seem strangely out of form, but something needs to be done to bring some balance back at the top. And I really don't think bane damage or void ray speed is that fix. Maybe it's something as simple as increasing ravager cooldown, or maybe it's something more far-reaching to change the economy, like halving Nexus cost and warp-in speed (maybe as a cheap upgrade from the cyber core so you can't just immediately triple expand). You mentioned a few more people than Serral and Maru as elite in the last quote, which is part of what made me react. But everyone is influenced by meta. I have a reaction to saying stuff like "we can remove the wins by Serral because he's Serral", because when you watch Serral play PvZ right now you're watching something really silly where he has a playstyle that is almost guaranteed win and then he makes bad all-ins in non-crucial games seemingly just to lower his map winrate. You end up with a bunch of 3-2 "close" series where absolutely no game is close and absolutely nobody doubts the end result at any point. So yeah, Serral is obviously better than the rest but you should still count his games. Maybe he should be 8-2 or maybe he should be 9-1, I don't really know, but I know he shouldn't be at "10-0 and I'll donate some games because it's that obvious that I'll win at match point." His TvZ winrate is at a healthy place to be for a matchup. Almost 80%, a clear favourite, but he could lose, and I can tell he's trying his hardest in every game. | ||
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LTCM
174 Posts
On August 16 2020 20:25 travis wrote: Can you probvide an alternate metric? I think it's quite good, myself. 2019 GSL ST Season 1. It's the only proper metric for measuring balance. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
On August 16 2020 07:31 Bagration wrote: Oh shit lol, so this was an early 2011-type GSL finals huh? Damn or a 2012 finals or a 2013 finals or a 2014 finals or a - | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 16 2020 21:36 Nebuchad wrote: Chicken and egg situation, isn't it? People are elite because they win a lot, not because of some inherent quality that other top players don't have. Well, Stats is in the group, occassionally Zest who has been in some finals(although didn't win that many). It's not that Protoss don't have any, they just don't have that many. While other in other races you can easily name 4 and add one or two more, Protoss has two at best. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24523 Posts
On August 17 2020 05:37 deacon.frost wrote: Well, Stats is in the group, occassionally Zest who has been in some finals(although didn't win that many). It's not that Protoss don't have any, they just don't have that many. While other in other races you can easily name 4 and add one or two more, Protoss has two at best. The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. How did you get through a who’s who of top Protoss players without mentioning Trap? I’m livid enough, god help your soul if Gemini reads this :p Parting has at least partially filled herO’s old niche too of doing weird aggression that he pulls off with pure execution. Indeed my argument over not over-reacting to the Protoss dominated Super Tournament in 2019 was precisely that they actually did have a depth of really good players. Since then we have lost Classic and herO, which are big losses for sure. If it was an issue about Protoss lacking truly elite level players they’d be hitting a Ro8 ceiling and getting monstered by the top tier Terrans and Zergs relatively equally. We don’t even have a singular PvZ sniper these days, where basically every top Zerg is scary in ZvP. At the absolute top level you generally have your mirror specialists and your clear top monsters within each race at the interracial matchups. Who’s the scary PvZ player these days? Scary within the Protoss context is a player who’s got a 50/50 shot in a Bo5 and will get pumped in a bo7 | ||
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LTCM
174 Posts
On August 17 2020 05:37 deacon.frost wrote: The issue is we just lost the top of the top in Classic, the occassional top in herO and none have replaced them properly(especially Classic). Technically we lost sOs as well who has really fallen in LotV. That's just way too many without replacements. What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred. Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight? Terran - ByuN, Polt GuMigod, Ryung, MMA Zerg - Life, Hydra, TRUE, viOlet, Snute, ByuL. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 17 2020 04:57 Cricketer12 wrote: or a 2012 finals or a 2013 finals or a 2014 finals or a - This finals is definitely worse than any Korean league finals in 2013. Yes, even broodlord vs broodlord is better. | ||
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Dabble
39 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
2827 Posts
Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else. And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in. I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8. | ||
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Dabble
39 Posts
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Pandain
United States12987 Posts
On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote: Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA. Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else. And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in. I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8. I agree with this. Part of the problem is that many (though not all) of our Korean narratives used to be centered around "is x the best player in the world?" and that debate, no doubt because the language barrier made it harder for us to relate to Koreans. But winning a GSL doesn't even mean that's true anymore with Reynors and Serral being top 5 players. Also many narratives that perhaps would be fun (Trap or Cure making to the top and finally winning a long-awaited championship) were completely destroyed (didn't they both get 4-0'd in the finals?). There's only so long I can read a "Cure is great online" GSL preview post. Also, Korea has been the same group of slowly dwindling Koreans for 7 years now, while in Europe we are still seeing new faces every year. The one exception is that it has been fun seeing returners fight against the big boys (DRG, Parting, Dream, etc...) It would probably be exciting seeing Rogue dominate as much as he does, but his finals are infamously and repeatedly boring . | ||
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QOGQOG
831 Posts
On August 17 2020 10:44 RogerChillingworth wrote: Unpopular opinion: Korean SC2 is far less interesting than it used to be. And far less interesting than EU/NA. Just find myself not really caring about the results most of the time. Weird series, outcomes, lack of fresh players and cool storylines. Nothing in KR has been even half as interesting as the Serral / Reynor rivalry, or Clem's rise to dominance, or whatever else. And people will still sit there and defend Maru bombing out of his ro16 group saying "he had a bad day." This dude won 4 GSLs in a row. He's just phoning it in. I give Korean SC2 2 thumbs down. Like when Rogue is 4-0ing people in the finals, something is very wrong. Mr Nydus should be superglued in the ro8. Yeah, it sure is exciting flipping a coin to see if Reynor or Serral wins each and every tournament. Also, the Rogue hate is uncalled for. He did SH/Nydus when it was broken, and was the only Zerg player to actually say it should be nerfed. He has a wide range, as you'll see if you actually watch these finals. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On August 17 2020 11:47 QOGQOG wrote: Yeah, it sure is exciting flipping a coin to see if Reynor or Serral wins each and every tournament. Also, the Rogue hate is uncalled for. He did SH/Nydus when it was broken, and was the only Zerg player to actually say it should be nerfed. He has a wide range, as you'll see if you actually watch these finals. yeah kinda how I feel about the whole western vs Korean scene, I have no interest in NA because I know none of the players are truly competitive at the top level and EU is just a coin flip between Reynor and Serral every tournament, I just get tired of watching ZvZ even if the matchup has improved a lot | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
DRG - The returning player who suddenly broke through again. Parting - Winner of the 1st WCS who is returning to old form with unorthodox aggressive builds and godly micro. TY - The player/commentator who outsmarts his opponents with mastermind planning. InnoVation - Can he do it another time to try to make a case for that "B" title? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 17 2020 06:34 LTCM wrote: What donkey crap. Classic and herO both played in 2018 and 2019 - years in which Protoss was also massacred. Furthermore, Protoss has been the race least effected by players leaving after Hots - BY FAR. How on earth is player attrition a valid example for Protoss getting curb stomped for almost three year straight? Terran - ByuN, Polt GuMigod, Ryung, MMA Zerg - Life, Hydra, TRUE, viOlet, Snute, ByuL. You're a donkey crap if anything. 2019: Classic: 2nd GSL code S S1, 1st GSL ST1 Stats: 1st ROG, 2nd IEM Trap: 2nd GSL Code S S2, S3 2018: Stats: 2nd GSL Code S S1, 1st GSL ST1, 2nd GSL vs The World, 2nd Blizzcon sOs: 2nd IEM PyeongChang, 2nd GSL ST2 Classic: 2nd IEM, 1st GSL ST2 Zest: 2nd GSL Code S S2 For Protoss being murdered they gathered pretty solid list of titles and 2nd places, mostly Classic and Stats. In 2019 Protoss has been in EVERY code S finals. You can't say this for Zerg nor Terran. Yes, there were not winning much, but they certainy were not massacred as you try to show it. And Classic is a huge loss of a top player. So the next time, mr. Donkey crap, check the results. And that's just 1st & 2nd place... Edit > if you didn't miss by point by a mile, I am saying the current Protoss was affected by the CURRENT LOSSES, namely Classic and herO. Not HotS losses, that would be Rain as well and guess what, I didn't name Rain, did I? | ||
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QOGQOG
831 Posts
On August 17 2020 15:43 deacon.frost wrote: You're a donkey crap if anything. 2019: Classic: 2nd GSL code S S1, 1st GSL ST1 Stats: 1st ROG, 2nd IEM Trap: 2nd GSL Code S S2, S3 2018: Stats: 2nd GSL Code S S1, 1st GSL ST1, 2nd GSL vs The World, 2nd Blizzcon sOs: 2nd IEM PyeongChang, 2nd GSL ST2 Classic: 2nd IEM, 1st GSL ST2 Zest: 2nd GSL Code S S2 For Protoss being murdered they gathered pretty solid list of titles and 2nd places, mostly Classic and Stats. In 2019 Protoss has been in EVERY code S finals. You can't say this for Zerg nor Terran. Yes, there were not winning much, but they certainy were not massacred as you try to show it. And Classic is a huge loss of a top player. So the next time, mr. Donkey crap, check the results. And that's just 1st & 2nd place... Edit > if you didn't miss by point by a mile, I am saying the current Protoss was affected by the CURRENT LOSSES, namely Classic and herO. Not HotS losses, that would be Rain as well and guess what, I didn't name Rain, did I? "Four entire first places, that's a whopping two per year! Protoss is clearly doing fine." | ||
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Poopi
France12762 Posts
But yeah they don't dominate LotV as hard as zerg, but it's not that protoss has been particularly bad in LotV, more that zerg has been particularly good / broken in LotV. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 17 2020 17:17 Poopi wrote: People are still talking about protoss not doing fine? Lmao... Protoss won more money than terran in 2018, in spite of Maru hard carrying terran race so they don't look super broke. That's hella telling imo, they didn't win WCS / GSL but overall they performed way better than terran, and a bit worse than zerg. But yeah they don't dominate LotV as hard as zerg, but it's not that protoss has been particularly bad in LotV, more that zerg has been particularly good / broken in LotV. "because Protoss was strong years ago, they are allowed to suffer now" | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24523 Posts
Stats against Rogue even with people quoting Aligulac and saying Stats was the hottest PvZer around, nah I wanted Stats to win but felt Rogue would stomp him. There isn’t a single scary PvZer on the planet right now either, not a single real terrifying sniper. Best you get is maybe having a 50/50 shot on a good day. Balance aside in Starcraft you’ve always had players with asymmetric matchup strengths. Some suck at mirrors, some are great at one interracial matchup and not the other. Who is actually a monster at PvZ these days? Hell failing that whose best matchup is PvZ? Nobody at the top level? | ||
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neveranexit
14 Posts
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On August 18 2020 00:54 Wombat_NI wrote: Stats against TY I felt could go either way given build choices and form on the day. Stats against Rogue even with people quoting Aligulac and saying Stats was the hottest PvZer around, nah I wanted Stats to win but felt Rogue would stomp him. There isn’t a single scary PvZer on the planet right now either, not a single real terrifying sniper. Best you get is maybe having a 50/50 shot on a good day. Balance aside in Starcraft you’ve always had players with asymmetric matchup strengths. Some suck at mirrors, some are great at one interracial matchup and not the other. Who is actually a monster at PvZ these days? Hell failing that whose best matchup is PvZ? Nobody at the top level? This is very valid point you're raising here. I am now for couple of months mostly watching PvZ VODs to find any inspiring, fresh, strong, meta-shifting gameplay from P but with rather poor results. There was that Zest 4g adept on IEM which needed like couple hours to be crushed by Rogue. There is also that blink-stalker heavy followup to glaived adepts opening with transition to 2-3 Colossus and push that Trap and PartinG are using and it is probably the only 'new' strategy on the table which might stick a bit longer. However we already saw in GSL S2 finals how it fares if you miss your timing window and don't hit before vipers. All in all there doesn't seem to be any stable, long term strategy for P in PvZ which gives good results and Zergs knowing that are cutting more and more drones in the midgame with the anticipation of committed pressure/all-in from P so it is even harder to win that way. Also that's why we see mostly roach/ravager based comps with occasional transition to banes if protoss is still alive. | ||
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