EPT[GSL 2020] Code S - Grand Finals - Page 16
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Durnuu
13325 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:57 Argonauta wrote: people talking about zerg nerfs but today Rogue didn't do any 200/200 mass baneling play or sh nydus play. Because there's a lot more wrong about zerg than this, and as Vindicare indirectly pointed out, it's time for the design patches to actually change the design of the game instead of listing 20 random changes and going through with 5 | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:56 Andi_Goldberger wrote: zerg got nerfed in the "unbeatable lategame army" and the "insanely busted nydus" department. all the other nerfs dont seem to have done anywhere near enough damage. The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it. Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was. | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:00 Vindicare605 wrote: The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable Yes it has | ||
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sneakyfox
8217 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: They're dragging their feet about it but they are trying to fix it. They've given Protoss brand new mechanics, have gutted two of Zerg's late game units, have gutted Nydus Worms (still viable but terrible compared to how they used to be) and are now trying to improve the Stargate, they've also nerfed creep, and buffed Oracles to counter creep better. These are all things Blizzard has done for the sake of PvZ. The problem is that TvZ is balanced and TvP is arguably Protoss favored. It's hard to tweak the races for one particular match up without impacting the other two. Maybe it is time for them to do something drastic like removing the Ravager's ability to destroy Forcefields. There's not too many other unit interactions that are strictly PvZ related. But you can easily address PvZ directly by using shield damage, as with EMP. Not sure why they're not doing that. Also, TvZ is balanced? Not so sure about that. Seems to me that the matchup still doesn't work properly with zerg having too easy a time defending and too good/cheap options for harass and counter-attacks. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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machinus
United States292 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:00 Vindicare605 wrote: The Queen nerf has hardly even been noticeable which frustrates me because Blizzard held off on nerfing them for ages when it was obvious they needed it. Still, I had hoped the Queen nerf would have been more impactful than it was. The queen nerfs were for buffs that should never have been in the game to begin with. It's shocking that people were still cool with it for so long. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:53 Durnuu wrote: ZvP has been broken for 3 entire years, acting like Blizzard is trying to fix it is hilarious I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed... | ||
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Luolis
Finland7190 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:59 Morbidius wrote: Protoss players complaining about lategame Zerg because of a failed wall that doesn't happen to master players. Protoss is really the new Terran. Because that was the only map... Also this is funny cause Zerg is the original whiner race :D | ||
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Elentos
55593 Posts
On August 15 2020 18:50 Vindicare605 wrote: How so? They keep nerfing Banelings vs non-light targets because Banelings are not supposed to be an anti-everything ground unit the way they are now. EVENTUALLY they'll get it right. If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games where mass bane is seen Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:02 Fango wrote: The queen nerfs were for buffs that should never have been in the game to begin with. It's shocking that people were still cool with it for so long. I never was, I'm just shocked that it has done so little to affect winrates. There have been air based metas against Zerg before even when Queens had 8 range that Protoss was taking advantage of. None of them have come back yet, Stargate play still looks helpless vs Zerg despite their main defensive AA getting nerfed. Really goes to show just how overbuffed Zerg has been for so long. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:03 MarianoSC2 wrote: I think at this point we just have to acknowledge that ZvP will never be truly fixed. To achieve that, Zerg would have to be completely redesigned as a race. Even if Blizz implements small changes here and there, the best Zergs have gotten so good they will always find a way. Toss players only option is to come up with wonky and cheesy builds. Or find something OP like those immortal prism pushes before it got nerfed to have short term success. The same will happen with Void rays. We will see Void battery all ins which may work for a while but then Zerg adjust or it will get nerfed. No matter what Blizz does, I just don't think protoss will ever beat a top Zerg in a best of 7 or in macro games in general due to the way how both races are designed... And we should just accept that? That every time a Protoss player goes into a grand finals vs Zerg there is a 90% chance that they will lose? | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2465 Posts
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Penev
28536 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:04 Elentos wrote: If it's 20, 18 or 16 or 15 damage to non-light per single baneling is largely insignificant. It's a cheap unit that takes up 0.5 supply. In most games Zerg is never going to struggle to afford this, and that's where all the problems come from. Not from one unit's damage against units it isn't supposed to counter. So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do? I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:08 Penev wrote: So what would be a good Zerg nerf that affects ZvP but not ZvT (as much)? Reducing damage to shields. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
That's always an option indeed. Might be worth advocating for. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7190 Posts
On August 15 2020 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote: So what do you think they should do? It's a consensus among the pros that the Baneling is a problem, but how do you do something about it without impacting TvZ? You can't just nerf its health or overall damage outright without severely impacting TvZ. So what do you do? I don't have the answer for that, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. These minor changes to the Baneling that Blizzard keeps making are as good of an idea as anything else I've heard regarding that unit. TvZ was fine when banes had 30hp.... | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
Rogue totally outclassing | ||
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