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Yo, Stats fought back hard to get back to even game state against Serral (Super impressive), then blindly charged into his opponent's side of the map and got surrounded on creep.
He didn't need to do that. He had a mothership already. He could just clear the creep on the left, and keep Serral in the dark, and force repositioning with a mass recall into the main, and then a nexus recall back home after some damage was done while teching into tempests. In that position, that 100% would have put him a little ahead. If he then went on to win the game, an equally sized group of different posters would be clamoring and complaining that Zerg can't beat Protoss when Protoss plays perfectly.
He didn't do that though, instead he made a single very bad choice, and got massively punished for it.
Starcraft is a hard game. I know it's too much to ask, but let's celebrate the fact that two of the very best players in the world put on an incredibly exciting series, not complain about the doom of Korea or imaginary imbalance.
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On December 10 2019 03:11 ThunderJunk wrote:
Yo, Stats fought back hard to get back to even game state against Serral (Super impressive), then blindly charged into his opponent's side of the map and got surrounded on creep.
He didn't need to do that. He had a mothership already. He could just clear the creep on the left, and keep Serral in the dark, and force repositioning with a mass recall into the main, and then a nexus recall back home after some damage was done while teching into tempests. In that position, that 100% would have put him a little ahead. If he then went on to win the game, an equally sized group of different posters would be clamoring and complaining that Zerg can't beat Protoss when Protoss plays perfectly.
He didn't do that though, instead he made a single very bad choice, and got massively punished for it.
Starcraft is a hard game. I know it's too much to ask, but let's celebrate the fact that two of the very best players in the world put on an incredibly exciting series, not complain about the doom of Korea or imaginary imbalance.
Thank you, exactly what I think, when I real all these posts.
Balance isn t perfect, but the meta is still shifting after the Patch, so I think the best thing is to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions. And the Korean Scene and WCS will most likely survive another year. All this negativity isn t realy helping, to keep the scene alive either....
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On December 09 2019 19:59 Harris1st wrote:
Had to laugh so hard when Zhuge won vs soO and Stats and Inno were just rofling around
This was the best moment of the tournament :D
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On December 09 2019 19:00 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you." The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you. For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you. The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then". The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually! I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist.
I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all". Either you misinterpreted the basic english or youre purposely building a strawman. It's just not impressive compared to someone like sOs's feats. Simple.
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On December 09 2019 20:23 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too. Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note. sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player. Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene.
Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison.
I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success)
Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth.
Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He
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Northern Ireland25332 Posts
On December 10 2019 09:49 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 19:00 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you." The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you. For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you. The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then". The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually! I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist. I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all". Either you misinterpreted the basic english or your purposely building a strawman. It's just not impressive compared to someone like sOs's feats. Simple.
How is it not? I mean really?
Serral’s put in a near two year run where his biggest failure was what a Ro8 in Katowice? He has the highest v Korean win rate ever and he doesn’t even get to play the bad Koreans. ELO inflation is a thing but he’s got the highest ELO ever. Yes WCS farming but he’s earned more money from the game than sOs. Korean progamers themselves say he’s the best player around currently
sOs is a great player himself, and one of my personal favourites to boot, has he ever really been ‘the best’? He was great in Proleague and had other great results, he’s specifically known as $o$ for having great performances in huge big money tournaments rather than being a consistently dominant player.
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On December 10 2019 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 09:49 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 19:00 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you." The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you. For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you. The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then". The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually! I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist. I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all". Either you misinterpreted the basic english or your purposely building a strawman. It's just not impressive compared to someone like sOs's feats. Simple. How is it not? I mean really? Serral’s put in a near two year run where his biggest failure was what a Ro8 in Katowice? He has the highest v Korean win rate ever and he doesn’t even get to play the bad Koreans. ELO inflation is a thing but he’s got the highest ELO ever. Yes WCS farming but he’s earned more money from the game than sOs. Korean progamers themselves say he’s the best player around currently sOs is a great player himself, and one of my personal favourites to boot, has he ever really been ‘the best’? He was great in Proleague and had other great results, he’s specifically known as $o$ for having great performances in huge big money tournaments rather than being a consistently dominant player.
All I'm saying is that sOs has better tournament results which is what the discussion between me and unlarva were initially.
Just like I think Maru has the superior resume despite me thinking serral is the better player.
Serral has not transcended the definition of success unless you look at it strictly from a monetary standpoint which is flawed since prize pool is not correlated with prestige/difficulty of tournament, and irrelevant anyway since i think Maru still edges him out in earnings. In any case the discussion was about tournament places
Serral's resume is pretty poor in comparison to the Korean greats simply because he does not prove himself in the most difficult settings at all times like the Koreans do. That's not transcending the definition of success like unlarva said.
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Cutting long train of embedded quotes here. @BerserkSword
The game and competitive scene isn't what is was back in days, thats clear. Still that same group of Top Korean Elite players who were competing and earning their all-time credentials during those hey-days of SC2 are largely still there and active and competing at the top level of the game. It is not like there was the time and then there was a time, totally separated and in their own vacuum bubbles. Its historical process, in which one point young dude from Finland was able to put his full concentration to the game, beginning to seriously compete against nearly impenetrable Korean hegemony, against just those same guys who form the core of SC2 legends and ethos, harvesting their scalps and skulls like Yautja warrior doing his initiation rite, left and right. He earned his clan marking and a sign of warrior to his forehead by lifting the trophy in Blizzcon with teary eyes, but what he did was the fact that the first time in the history there was "foreigner" to whom that word couldn't be attached without also changing its meaning. Full boiled, veteran Korean Elite Predators with long lists of insane hunts in a past, and piles of trophies, were forced to give a nod of acceptance and consider him as their peer...
And it didn't end there. Other, lesser alien initiates saw same happenings too, how skinny and socially little bit ackward dude from Pornainen gave lessons to guys who weren't used to give much chances to their foreign counterparts. Psychological, mental class roof was shattered permanently. The perception was that for all: Its possible!!!
While a dust piles up slowly in corners of desolated Korean dojos, a young line of reynors, clems, skillous and co. are emerging to the contention from European scenes. They all knew/know now how good they have to be if ever seriously contending Koreans, but they've also Serral for studying advanced katas of the art.
The scene is transcending and the focal point a change of it has been Serral, and lately also Reynor.
The point being here that how nostalgic of our feelings toward some SC2 era may be, we just cannot forget happenings and trends within time frames latest of 10-20% of the existence of entire game/scene. Its not 2013 anymore. Its not like foreigners and their doings can be just rendered out straightforwardly altogether from evaluations.
"Intangibles" related to Serral are hard to ennumerate, but they are there, and everyone knows in their hearts they have had a major impact to the curriculum and prospects of the game.
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Im so tired of everyone judging balance around Serral. And of ppl saying Serral wouldnt win as much as other race.
Its not about the race. Just in the games he plays against other top players, you can clearly see he can just do more things at the same time, and do them better than any other players.
If he was terran, he would still find ways to outmultitask out harass opponents and macro like a beast.
Hes just on more screens at the same time.
You terran players are like martyr who think any time a terran player does well ( Maru, byun, innovation, mvp, teaja ..etc) its because hes a god and is 1000 times better than others while playing with worst race.
Meanwhile, If the top player is Serral and is zerg, its because its the race.
News flash, Serral has more raw skills than any other player ever in the history of the game. He doesnt rely on gimmicks or strong all-ins or imbalanced era to win, he relies on better macro, more screen per minute, and out multitasking his opponents by making less mistakes and provoking more mistakes.
This terran circle jerk victim complex has to end. Terran is the strongest its ever been, foreign terrans just arent as good as zerg players, get over yourselves.
You could make zerg super underpowered and Serral would still win fairly often because hes just way better than his opponents, and with a pool of 30 players, most games are decided by skills and not balance.
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On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Terran is the strongest its ever been.
Sometimes I fantasize about making an alt account where all I did was quote amazing things people say. It would have all sorts of gems like "Serral's loss against Goblin doesn't count so he only dropped 1 map instead of 2" and "Serral's accomplishments aren't impressive" and "Terran is the strongest it's ever been." I'm a little weird like that.
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I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die.
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On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote:
I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die.
So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM.
Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers
Lambo won super convincingly btw...
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On December 10 2019 17:39 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote:
I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die. So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw...
Special said himself his offrace is "trash", around 5K MMR.
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Northern Ireland25332 Posts
On December 10 2019 15:35 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Terran is the strongest its ever been. Sometimes I fantasize about making an alt account where all I did was quote amazing things people say. It would have all sorts of gems like "Serral's loss against Goblin doesn't count so he only dropped 1 map instead of 2" and "Serral's accomplishments aren't impressive" and "Terran is the strongest it's ever been." I'm a little weird like that.
‘The best of TL’s wisdom’ would be a hell of a Twitter follow!
Not particularly useful for me as I have no life and basically catch every post on here anyway, but I’m sure others would enjoy it
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On December 10 2019 18:53 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 17:39 dbRic1203 wrote:On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote:
I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die. So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw... Special said himself his offrace is "trash", around 5K MMR.
Well, I missed that. My point wasn t that Lambo is better than Special anyways, but that it s interesting to see pros Offracing in general. Like BeastyQT, who was a terran most of the time, but now is almost as good with protoss and got GM with all 4 races, while not beeing a pro player anymore.
I know there have been some all-matchups-BO9s in the past, wich was allways great to watch. Would love to see a bigger tournament with that format, not "just" small showmatches.
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Northern Ireland25332 Posts
On December 10 2019 21:10 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 18:53 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On December 10 2019 17:39 dbRic1203 wrote:On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote:
I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die. So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw... Special said himself his offrace is "trash", around 5K MMR. Well, I missed that. My point wasn t that Lambo is better than Special anyways, but that it s interesting to see pros Offracing in general. Like BeastyQT, who was a terran most of the time, but now is almost as good with protoss and got GM with all 4 races, while not beeing a pro player anymore. I know there have been some all-matchups-BO9s in the past, wich was allways great to watch. Would love to see a bigger tournament with that format, not "just" small showmatches.
I think it’d be idea side content at HSC, run a small off-race tournament and have other pros who play those races on the couch, making fun of how bad their peers play their race.
Would be pretty fun, I think you’d need that kind of vibe though. Would be especially fun to have matches that pros complain are unbalanced but from the other side.
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On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
On December 10 2019 09:49 BerserkSword wrote:
I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all".
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Northern Ireland25332 Posts
On December 10 2019 21:43 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 09:49 BerserkSword wrote:
I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all".
youtu.be
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On December 10 2019 10:00 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 20:23 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too. Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note. sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player. Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark. The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene. Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison. I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success) Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth. Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He
But he doesnt confine himself in non Korean enviroment.
He clashes with the best of them pretty often. And beats them almost always. And even in the few times he lost, he didnt look weak and it was in later steps of the tourney.
But you cant put aside Serrals dominance cus there are no more korean teams anymore. This very same argument nulifiea itself.
Koreans dont have the upside of a rich team scenario anymore. But so does Serral. When sOs was dominant, he had a team to practice and test and better analysis the game. So he had the same perks his competition.
Same happens to Serral (his condition is even worse, since theres still Jin Air - which happens to concentrate the most dominants players of Korea). He lacks the same perks the the nowadays korean scene lacks: rich team scenario.
And keeps beating them all for 2 years.
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On December 11 2019 03:28 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 10:00 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 20:23 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too. Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note. sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player. Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark. The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene. Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison. I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success) Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth. Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He But he doesnt confine himself in non Korean enviroment. He clashes with the best of them pretty often. And beats them almost always. And even in the few times he lost, he didnt look weak and it was in later steps of the tourney. But you cant put aside Serrals dominance cus there are no more korean teams anymore. This very same argument nulifiea itself. Koreans dont have the upside of a rich team scenario anymore. But so does Serral. When sOs was dominant, he had a team to practice and test and better analysis the game. So he had the same perks his competition. Same happens to Serral (his condition is even worse, since theres still Jin Air - which happens to concentrate the most dominants players of Korea). He lacks the same perks the the nowadays korean scene lacks: rich team scenario. And keeps beating them all for 2 years.
The argument doesn’t nullify itself at all.
Like I said before despite being part of a team having perks, those perks were outweighed by the level of difficulty of the Korea scene back then. sOs has better tournament success in a MUCH tougher environment than Serral.
Until serral immerses himself in the meat grinder that is Korea or wins like multiple Blizzcons/IEM caliber tournaments his single Blizzcon, his farming of the protected wcs circuit , and winning a handful of some of the more “fun” tournaments doesn’t put him on the same level of tournament success as guys like sOs dark and inno for example.
If you’re not going to participate in the gsl then you better have a hell of an impressive resume to make up for it. I’m guessing that’s why serral only ranked 18 in tl GOAT contest lol
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EPT
