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Northern Ireland26040 Posts
On December 09 2019 09:04 tigon_ridge wrote:
By the way, I don't know how relevant this is, but a paper written about alphastar reported: "AlphaStar Final achieved ratings of 6,275 Match Making Rating (MMR) for Protoss, 6,048 for Terran and 5,835 for Zerg."
People have been saying for the longest time that zerg is the easiest race to learn, but it seems even during the supposedly zerg-favored meta (before this current patch) this AI strongly disagrees. But computer and humans think and act differently, so maybe's that's a counterargument.
Zerg is the inherently reactive race so presumably that’s reflected there.
Protoss you can do well executed timing attacks and prosper pretty well on ladder, I don’t think it’s surprising that Alphastar’s Protoss has prospered a bit more given the complexities involved.
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On December 09 2019 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 09:04 tigon_ridge wrote:
By the way, I don't know how relevant this is, but a paper written about alphastar reported: "AlphaStar Final achieved ratings of 6,275 Match Making Rating (MMR) for Protoss, 6,048 for Terran and 5,835 for Zerg."
People have been saying for the longest time that zerg is the easiest race to learn, but it seems even during the supposedly zerg-favored meta (before this current patch) this AI strongly disagrees. But computer and humans think and act differently, so maybe's that's a counterargument. Zerg is the inherently reactive race so presumably that’s reflected there. Protoss you can do well executed timing attacks and prosper pretty well on ladder, I don’t think it’s surprising that Alphastar’s Protoss has prospered a bit more given the complexities involved.
I think we should all tread very lightly when trying discern anything about balance from AlphaStar.
That said, I do believe there's a strong degree of 'currently, the best players in the world happen to play zerg', and that's been a large part of their ascent. Between Serral, Reynor, Dark and Rogue you have the 2 best foreigners and probably 2 of the top 3 or 4 Koreans and I don't think that's just because of their race.
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Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
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On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
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On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
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On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
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On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
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On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Perhaps Serral's unsurmountable uphill in these comparisons is also because of the fact his vs Korean competition from last 3 years consist very small sample of 2nd and 3rd tier Koreans. His competition has been so far mainly concentrated to matches against scrubs like Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, SoO, Trap, Classic, TY and ilks. Its impossible make seriously convincing track record if competing only with these kind guys, as also his ridiculous record shows:
Since Jan 1st 2017 Serral is 172–110 (60.99%) in games and 62–26 (70.45%) in matches against Koreans.
He clearly suffers from the fact that Koreans' internal fight somehow filter only unfavorable guys to play against him. ;-)
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Canada8989 Posts
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
The kind of tricky thing with Serral is the era he plays in, he never in all his carrer faced a Korean player younger than him. Most Koreans players now are between 24 and 27, an age at which no one outside of Nestea ever won a Korean tournament before 2017.
This year saw the oldest GSL player we ever had since Nestea in Rogue, the oldest IEM Katowice champ, the oldest Blizzcon champ, the oldest WESG champ and the oldest Super Tournament champ.
It's a young man games and Koreans are getting old.
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On December 09 2019 14:08 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. The kind of tricky thing with Serral is the era he plays in, he never in all his carrer faced a Korean player younger than him. Most Koreans players now are between 24 and 27, an age at which no one outside of Nestea ever won a Korean tournament before 2017. This year saw the oldest GSL player we ever had since Nestea in Rogue, the oldest IEM Katowice champ, the oldest Blizzcon champ, the oldest WESG champ and the oldest Super Tournament champ. It's a young man games and Korean are getting old.
Yeah. Declining quality of competition and relative lack of newcomers in Korean scene doesn't however seems to have any major impact to how tournament wins are weighted in relation to Serral. It is clear that Korean competition is still more fierce than foreigner, but this has been changing lately. Serral's lack of GSL career can be used as fault against his resume, but it's meaning gets over exaggerated considering the state of competitive scene as a whole, and Serral's career split and consistency vs Koreans. Hypotetical GSL with Serral would certainly be qualitatively higher level than GSL without Serral (usual argument against his potential success in the GSL is that Koreans could prepare better against him and that is true, but same time that other side of the argument tends to get neglected, like it would be somehow impossible for Serral to get any benefits from longer preparations.) Anyway...
Hopefully the region lock gets lifted as soon as possible. That would do good for everyone. I think that foreign scene is qualitatively ready for unified competitive global scene.
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On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
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Honestly though, why is it called teamleague, if most teams are just carried by 1 player..
Format is not the greatest
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United States33487 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:13 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 08:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 09 2019 08:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On December 09 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote:
Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated). You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2. Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points. Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them. Fair enough.
obviously enough
I seriously can't believe your original thought came out of your head and onto this forum
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On December 09 2019 16:27 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 08:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On December 09 2019 08:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 09 2019 08:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On December 09 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote:
Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated). You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2. Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points. Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them. Fair enough. obviously enough I seriously can't believe your original thought came out of your head and onto this forum
My bad. I read your TL articles, so I know how you're feeling. ;-) (Just kidding...most of your writing is just fine. Most.)
BTW "Fair enough" doesn't necessarily mean "Okay, I concede." It could also mean "your logic is at least somewhat passable, but I don't feel like arguing about it." Fact is, in engineering and science, outlier data samples are often discounted.
Goblin executed a good cannon rush into phoenix build. That wasn't something I contested, so why you and others got your panties in a bunch is curious. Hell, I'd followed printf and other cannon rush streamers for quite a while. I find it entertaining and would love to see more maps that are more conducive CRs. That said, CR is not quite yet a significant part of highest tier competitive meta, and I just tend to find losses due to "cast these dice and pray" strategies to be insignificant. It wasn't as if Goblin is a well-known high level player and it's predictable that he would do something weird. If Serral were playing sOs, parting, or Classic, obviously he would've been a lot more prepared for cannon shenanigans. Whatever. It's just one person's opinion.
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https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11108719
Maybe someday also wide Finnish audience will understand value of this kind achievements and appreciate accordingly. Its good that YLE sports department at least make news now consistently on esports, which directly leads to more news in other medias too.
There is a lot of similarities what it once was with Finnish "Flying Finn" Rally drivers. At first rally wasn't considered as sport by vast majority of Finnish people. Now the Finnish rally scene is the last stand and the mainstay of whole sport, nobody questioning it's status as Sport.
Serral's and ENCE's role in making esport as legitimate sport in Finland cannot be over estimated.
Great end for the Year.
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On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
First it was:
"If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all."
Now it is:
"If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you."
The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you.
For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you.
The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then".
The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually!
I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist.
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France12904 Posts
Top 4 for us, still a very good result
Super nice tournament to close out the year
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Had to laugh so hard when Zhuge won vs soO and Stats and Inno were just rofling around
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Northern Ireland26040 Posts
On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
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On December 09 2019 20:23 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 14:45 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era. On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote:
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure. Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it. It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2. If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all. I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"? I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-) Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less. sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you. sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too. Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note. sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player. Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
I don't think being in Korea means that much these days. There are no teams beside Jinair, no team league, no official organization and no new talents. If Serral had played in Korea since the beginning, i doubt he would have been this good as there are no "easy" WCS money in Korea even though the GSL has been way less competitive.
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EPT
