On December 08 2019 18:37 sneakyfox wrote: Last tournament of 2019, the hype is real!
PS. WCS announcement when?
We've been getting the complete announcements later and later every year. Maybe full announcement during IEM Katowice this year
Maybe this year they will play all three seasons of GSL simultaneously. When the players are already in the studio for the Ro32 they might as well play two more Ro32 right away
Another thing, off topic: was there ever a mega thread for sc2 memes, clips etc?
I tried to go to the studio in scooter but it was an utter fail, thankfully there is a bus going near by in spite of the strikes so I should be able to be right on time for the actual event o/
On December 08 2019 20:15 Poopi wrote: I tried to go to the studio in scooter but it was an utter fail, thankfully there is a bus going near by in spite of the strikes so I should be able to be right on time for the actual event o/
inb4 Korea gets disqualified because they don't know about the strikes and can't make it to the studio.
On December 08 2019 20:15 Poopi wrote: I tried to go to the studio in scooter but it was an utter fail, thankfully there is a bus going near by in spite of the strikes so I should be able to be right on time for the actual event o/
inb4 Korea gets disqualified because they don't know about the strikes and can't make it to the studio.
FunKa tweeted something like their rented airBnb has no hot water, so they should be very close to the studios but yeah maybe players will have cold hands
On December 08 2019 20:15 Poopi wrote: I tried to go to the studio in scooter but it was an utter fail, thankfully there is a bus going near by in spite of the strikes so I should be able to be right on time for the actual event o/
inb4 Korea gets disqualified because they don't know about the strikes and can't make it to the studio.
FunKa tweeted something like their rented airBnb has no hot water, so they should be very close to the studios but yeah maybe players will have cold hands
Players are 2 minutes away from the office and in a hotel so no worry they are here already. : >
On December 08 2019 20:15 Poopi wrote: I tried to go to the studio in scooter but it was an utter fail, thankfully there is a bus going near by in spite of the strikes so I should be able to be right on time for the actual event o/
inb4 Korea gets disqualified because they don't know about the strikes and can't make it to the studio.
FunKa tweeted something like their rented airBnb has no hot water, so they should be very close to the studios but yeah maybe players will have cold hands
Players are 2 minutes away from the office and in a hotel so no worry they are here already. : >
Easy win for France then, Clem is the new MarineLorD
On December 08 2019 21:07 Schelim wrote: had not had the chance to watch any of this year's Nationwars, looking forward to this as i do have the time today
pretty funny Italy consists of 3 Zergs with similar names
Reynor just wants to play games and eat junk food. Not interested in parties and french kissing. Maybe that's the reason he's a top zerg and I suck at starcraft
On December 08 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote: Reynor just wants to play games and eat junk food. Not interested in parties and french kissing. Maybe that's the reason he's a top zerg and I suck at starcraft
Don't worry, I hate parties and nobody I know would wanna French kiss me anyway. But I'm still not good at SC2.
On December 08 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote: Reynor just wants to play games and eat junk food. Not interested in parties and french kissing. Maybe that's the reason he's a top zerg and I suck at starcraft
Don't worry, I hate parties and nobody I know would wanna French kiss me anyway. But I'm still not good at SC2.
Maybe it's because I play Terran though
I play Terran too! Reynor does not. I think this qualifies as scientific proof.
On December 08 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote: Reynor just wants to play games and eat junk food. Not interested in parties and french kissing. Maybe that's the reason he's a top zerg and I suck at starcraft
Don't worry, I hate parties and nobody I know would wanna French kiss me anyway. But I'm still not good at SC2.
Maybe it's because I play Terran though
I play Terran too! Reynor does not. I think this qualifies as scientific proof.
Definitely can't be a top Zerg when you play Terran. Big brain Reynor 3 steps ahead of us.
On December 08 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote: Reynor just wants to play games and eat junk food. Not interested in parties and french kissing. Maybe that's the reason he's a top zerg and I suck at starcraft
Don't worry, I hate parties and nobody I know would wanna French kiss me anyway. But I'm still not good at SC2.
Maybe it's because I play Terran though
I play Terran too! Reynor does not. I think this qualifies as scientific proof.
Definitely can't be a top Zerg when you play Terran. Big brain Reynor 3 steps ahead of us.
Those 17-year old neurons firing away on all cylinders. Just can't keep up with that man.
This game looked a lot like the HSC finals. Reynor seems to have the better ideas and is able to get ahead doing smart moves. But then Serral just makes one big decisive move.
On December 08 2019 22:04 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Why we have had 2 videos about Team Italy so far but none for Team Finland?
Serral arrived later than all the others because your president wanted an audience with him, so they probably had a bit less time making content with the Finnish squad.
On December 08 2019 22:04 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Why we have had 2 videos about Team Italy so far but none for Team Finland?
Serral arrived later than all the others because your president wanted an audience with him, so they probably had a bit less time making content with the Finnish squad.
But you only need Zhugeliang for all the real content anyway.
You know the fact that the setup for this game was 10 minutes and then there's an immediate pause because of messed up settings... it really brings back that Proleague feel. Can we get some KeSPA warnings in on this please?
i'll come out and say what all of us are thinking. this matchup is pretty shit in terms of the races. i see there's a better mix and some Terrans in Korea vs France. looking forward to that.
NW has now the same problems as LRTL used to have: the skill levels of the players is so uneven that if the best player runs into anyone else than the other best player, the game is moot. I had no idea back then that we are blazing the trails for pro competition on the future. Wait for it when next year NW introduce MMR-based pairing of players to ensure interesting games.
On December 08 2019 22:36 Schelim wrote: nice Kendrick Lamar reference
i'll come out and say what all of us are thinking. this matchup is pretty shit in terms of the races. i see there's a better mix and some Terrans in Korea vs France. looking forward to that.
I mean there's basically 2 reasons to watch Finland vs Italy. Reynor vs Serral and cannon rushes from Muszero.
On December 08 2019 22:37 opisska wrote: NW has now the same problems as LRTL used to have: the skill levels of the players is so uneven that if the best player runs into anyone else than the other best player, the game is moot. I had no idea back then that we are blazing the trails for pro competition on the future. Wait for it when next year NW introduce MMR-based pairing of players to ensure interesting games.
On December 08 2019 22:37 opisska wrote: NW has now the same problems as LRTL used to have: the skill levels of the players is so uneven that if the best player runs into anyone else than the other best player, the game is moot. I had no idea back then that we are blazing the trails for pro competition on the future. Wait for it when next year NW introduce MMR-based pairing of players to ensure interesting games.
On December 08 2019 22:37 opisska wrote: NW has now the same problems as LRTL used to have: the skill levels of the players is so uneven that if the best player runs into anyone else than the other best player, the game is moot. I had no idea back then that we are blazing the trails for pro competition on the future. Wait for it when next year NW introduce MMR-based pairing of players to ensure interesting games.
Sorry but what is LRTL ?
The most promising grassroots tournament of the late years of SC2 that found its premature demise due to its participants having too large egos
On December 08 2019 22:37 opisska wrote: NW has now the same problems as LRTL used to have: the skill levels of the players is so uneven that if the best player runs into anyone else than the other best player, the game is moot. I had no idea back then that we are blazing the trails for pro competition on the future. Wait for it when next year NW introduce MMR-based pairing of players to ensure interesting games.
Oh no, Stats is confronted by his crippling weakness against decent Terran players. Can the fact this is an offline event save him? (This may or may not be a teaser for an embarrassing Stats moment featured in the next Best Games article coming soon™)
On December 08 2019 23:08 Elentos wrote: Oh no, Stats is confronted by his crippling weakness against decent Terran players. Can the fact this is an offline event save him? (This may or may not be a teaser for an embarrassing Stats moment featured in the next Best Games article coming soon™)
Oh shit, best games is coming back? The hype is reaaal
On December 08 2019 23:08 Elentos wrote: Oh no, Stats is confronted by his crippling weakness against decent Terran players. Can the fact this is an offline event save him? (This may or may not be a teaser for an embarrassing Stats moment featured in the next Best Games article coming soon™)
Oh shit, best games is coming back? The hype is reaaal
I don't think it ever went anywhere, it just fluctuates according to the current level of Elentos's laziness
On December 08 2019 23:19 Elentos wrote: This is Korea's greatest lineup ever. And also nowhere near the best possible. I think that says a thing or two about Korea's past teams.
Well, all of the player Korea fields have been the best of their race this year; if NWs took place 8/9 months ago, this would have been very close to the best possible lineup for South Korea.
On December 08 2019 23:19 Elentos wrote: This is Korea's greatest lineup ever. And also nowhere near the best possible. I think that says a thing or two about Korea's past teams.
Well, all of the player Korea fields have been the best of their race this year
I strongly disagree with that sentiment but we aren't gonna reach common ground on that.
On December 08 2019 23:19 Elentos wrote: This is Korea's greatest lineup ever. And also nowhere near the best possible. I think that says a thing or two about Korea's past teams.
Well, all of the player Korea fields have been the best of their race this year; if NWs took place 8/9 months ago, this would have been very close to the best possible lineup for South Korea.
On December 08 2019 23:19 Elentos wrote: This is Korea's greatest lineup ever. And also nowhere near the best possible. I think that says a thing or two about Korea's past teams.
Well, all of the player Korea fields have been the best of their race this year; if NWs took place 8/9 months ago, this would have been very close to the best possible lineup for South Korea.
In what world?
He meant at some point this year. Which is more reasonable even though I still heavily disagree.
Guys I think it's quite clear Team Korea consists of the only 3 Korean players to have beaten Serral this year, the only valid reason for which they're chosen.
On December 08 2019 23:19 Elentos wrote: This is Korea's greatest lineup ever. And also nowhere near the best possible. I think that says a thing or two about Korea's past teams.
Well, all of the player Korea fields have been the best of their race this year; if NWs took place 8/9 months ago, this would have been very close to the best possible lineup for South Korea.
In what world?
soO right after Katowice, I remind you that he was placed as #1 overall in the Power Ranking; Inno's performance at WESG was amazing, he eliminated Maru and was the first to defeat Serral in a Grand Final after two years, he could very well look like the best Terran in that timeframe. Both soO and Inno declined after that.
Stats was very inconsistent this year, but he was the best Protoss around Katowice and he looked like the best again after ASUS ROG.
On December 08 2019 23:19 Elentos wrote: This is Korea's greatest lineup ever. And also nowhere near the best possible. I think that says a thing or two about Korea's past teams.
Well, all of the player Korea fields have been the best of their race this year; if NWs took place 8/9 months ago, this would have been very close to the best possible lineup for South Korea.
In what world?
soO right after Katowice, I remind you that he was placed as #1 overall in the Power Ranking; Inno's performance at WESG was amazing, he eliminated Maru and was the first to defeat Serral in a Grand Final after two years, he could very well look like the best Terran in that timeframe. Both soO and Inno declined after that.
Stats was very inconsistent this year, but he was the best Protoss around Katowice and he looked like the best again after ASUS ROG.
EDIT: I apologize, I meant what Elentos said.
Makes more sense, no problem. Just couldn't imagine how you could come to the conclusion that they were the best of their respective races overall this year. :D
Actually i think it's really funny that the "best" protoss lategame army cannot fight headon vs terran but is designed to first widdle the terran force down with poke + aoe to then crush it :D
On December 08 2019 23:42 darklycid wrote: Actually i think it's really funny that the "best" protoss lategame army cannot fight headon vs terran but is designed to first widdle the terran force down with poke + aoe to then crush it :D
Well the best Protoss late game army would have had 3 sources of major AOE (+ minor AOE from archons) to force really awkward fights.
On December 08 2019 23:42 darklycid wrote: Actually i think it's really funny that the "best" protoss lategame army cannot fight headon vs terran but is designed to first widdle the terran force down with poke + aoe to then crush it :D
Well the best Protoss late game army would have had 3 sources of major AOE (+ minor AOE from archons) to force really awkward fights.
Yes of course normally you just poke the terran down with tempest and disruptor and storm (which is actually really hard for the terran to fight) but once you can get it cornered it just dies sooooo fast.
On December 08 2019 23:42 darklycid wrote: Actually i think it's really funny that the "best" protoss lategame army cannot fight headon vs terran but is designed to first widdle the terran force down with poke + aoe to then crush it :D
Well the best Protoss late game army would have had 3 sources of major AOE (+ minor AOE from archons) to force really awkward fights.
Yes of course normally you just poke the terran down with tempest and disruptor and storm (which is actually really hard for the terran to fight) but once you can get it cornered it just dies sooooo fast.
Which is why it's important you don't back yourself into a corner.
Clem also says that french fries > french kiss. If we want our game to survive in the future we really need to teach kids to not be interested in getting laid and focus on starcraft instead.
On December 09 2019 00:16 Schelim wrote: i've been reading every post by a French person in this thread in a French accent and it's made my afternoon much more enjoyable
On December 09 2019 00:16 Schelim wrote: i've been reading every post by a French person in this thread in a French accent and it's made my afternoon much more enjoyable
Well I tried to read this comment in Scottish accent and realised that's like a completely different language.
On December 09 2019 00:16 Schelim wrote: i've been reading every post by a French person in this thread in a French accent and it's made my afternoon much more enjoyable
I am now reading all your posts in a Scottish one
I'd like to say I'm readying yours in a polish accent, but let's be real, it's actually a russian one.
On December 09 2019 00:16 Schelim wrote: i've been reading every post by a French person in this thread in a French accent and it's made my afternoon much more enjoyable
I am now reading all your posts in a Scottish one
I'd like to say I'm readying yours in a polish accent, but let's be real, it's actually a russian one.
I am also not Polish But Czech is so similar that my English accent is actually quite Russian-sounding, espcially when I am stressed and don't control myself enough. I once tried to cast SC2 and then listened to it and was fascinated by how Russian do I sound (sadly, the video has been lost).
On December 09 2019 00:16 Schelim wrote: i've been reading every post by a French person in this thread in a French accent and it's made my afternoon much more enjoyable
I am now reading all your posts in a Scottish one
oh wow forgot i still had that up. been a while since i've last been to Scotland.
On December 09 2019 00:43 [PkF] Wire wrote: Now that it's likely that SK will face Serral in the finals, who do you favor ? The one-man army or the more homogeneous South Korean team ?
I love NW and og makes a good job overall (well I rly dislike their casting but it is irrelevant here) however the prod seems off, so many interruptions :/
On December 09 2019 00:43 [PkF] Wire wrote: Now that it's likely that SK will face Serral in the finals, who do you favor ? The one-man army or the more homogeneous South Korean team ?
I hoping it's going all the way to the ace match because then you can't revive a player that has already been revived, and Finland will have to send the cannon rusher or the BM master
On December 09 2019 00:43 [PkF] Wire wrote: Now that it's likely that SK will face Serral in the finals, who do you favor ? The one-man army or the more homogeneous South Korean team ?
I hoping it's going all the way to the ace match because then you can't revive a player that has already been revived, and Finland will have to send the cannon rusher or the BM master
Then soO or Inno play super greedy like against NoRegreT and get sniped by TheMusZero? It would be exhilarating.
On December 09 2019 00:43 [PkF] Wire wrote: Now that it's likely that SK will face Serral in the finals, who do you favor ? The one-man army or the more homogeneous South Korean team ?
Reynor will 4-0 France, then Serral will 5-0 SK
We wanted to give him beer but he said only after he allkills us, smart move
On December 09 2019 01:20 HolydaKing wrote: GG good effort, now I hope Serral crushes KR.
Wow, hoping for the most boring outcome. Lame.
Hey, KR winning is the most boring thing. As a Serral fan what I said wouldn't be boring anyway.
Serral losing 2 games couldn't possibly be boring. And neither could Muszero playing the ace match for Finland.
Yes it could. 2-3 rax Inno and early roach push by soO for example. Muszero playing in the ace would 99,9% be hilarious smackdown, I'd honestly expect Finland to choose Zhuge anyway.
On December 09 2019 01:20 HolydaKing wrote: GG good effort, now I hope Serral crushes KR.
Wow, hoping for the most boring outcome. Lame.
Hey, KR winning is the most boring thing. As a Serral fan what I said wouldn't be boring anyway.
Serral losing 2 games couldn't possibly be boring. And neither could Muszero playing the ace match for Finland.
Yes it could. 2-3 rax Inno and early roach push by soO for example. Muszero playing in the ace would 99,9% be hilarious smackdown, I'd honestly expect Finland to choose Zhuge anyway.
Dude this is a team that couldn't figure out Noregret was going to all-in them every game, you think they're gonna figure out how to cheese Serral?
On December 09 2019 01:20 HolydaKing wrote: GG good effort, now I hope Serral crushes KR.
Wow, hoping for the most boring outcome. Lame.
Hey, KR winning is the most boring thing. As a Serral fan what I said wouldn't be boring anyway.
Serral losing 2 games couldn't possibly be boring. And neither could Muszero playing the ace match for Finland.
Don't see how it could ever be exciting if Serral just won 5 straight games and Korea got rolled.
Only if TheMusZero wins! Serral allkilling Korea would be absolutely epic.
Don't know. It's not the level of Marinelord doing it. Or any of the previous NW finalists beating Korea at all to begin with. Serral's last match against every member of the Korean team was a 3-0 win, so an all-kill doesn't even sound too outlandish to me (albeit he may need a revive). Meanwhile, in every other year Korea was the clear and obvious favorite and it all seemed like a mere question of how many maps Korea would drop before the inevitable. The fights those teams that didn't have Serral put up to make it any close were epic.
For me Serral dragging the rest of his "team" across the finish line with a solo performance start to finish is that thing I've been expecting and dreading all tournament long.
On December 09 2019 01:20 HolydaKing wrote: GG good effort, now I hope Serral crushes KR.
Wow, hoping for the most boring outcome. Lame.
Hey, KR winning is the most boring thing. As a Serral fan what I said wouldn't be boring anyway.
Serral losing 2 games couldn't possibly be boring. And neither could Muszero playing the ace match for Finland.
Don't see how it could ever be exciting if Serral just won 5 straight games and Korea got rolled.
Only if TheMusZero wins! Serral allkilling Korea would be absolutely epic.
Dunno, honestly Serral is expected to beat all of them in rather one sided games, it would be nice to see one of the korean over perform. Or just to have an actual team win the team league in general.
Also I've just discovered that soO has hit #1 GM on EU since arriving for NW. This is damaging my view on Korean and European Zergs. Somebody end this madness.
On December 09 2019 02:02 Elentos wrote: Also I've just discovered that soO has hit #1 GM on EU since arriving for NW. This is damaging my view on Korean and European Zergs. Somebody end this madness.
Not quite. He's 7002, while Reynor is 7050, and Serral's MMR isn't known yet.
On December 09 2019 02:02 Elentos wrote: Also I've just discovered that soO has hit #1 GM on EU since arriving for NW. This is damaging my view on Korean and European Zergs. Somebody end this madness.
Not quite. He's 7002, while Reynor is 7050, and Serral's MMR isn't known yet.
On December 09 2019 02:02 Elentos wrote: Also I've just discovered that soO has hit #1 GM on EU since arriving for NW. This is damaging my view on Korean and European Zergs. Somebody end this madness.
Not quite. He's 7002, while Reynor is 7050, and Serral's MMR isn't known yet.
He is. Reynor ain't in GM. Technicalities
Hah, what a noob, can't even make GM. Korea = superior confirmed once again.
On December 09 2019 02:02 Elentos wrote: Also I've just discovered that soO has hit #1 GM on EU since arriving for NW. This is damaging my view on Korean and European Zergs. Somebody end this madness.
On December 09 2019 02:37 yht9657 wrote: Just checked, even Stats who struggles to maintain 6.5k on KR is in top3 EU GM right now, yet another proof EU ladder is such a joke
He's 6683 in Korea. Top 3 on EU ladder are: Serral, Reynor, and soO. 4th is Showtime, and 5th is one of Lambo's accounts at 6928. There are some 7k protoss barcodes in Korea who must be Stats, Classic, or herO. Granted, barcode MMR is a couple hundred above true MMR, but still it's not a shocker then that Stats gets 6th place on EU ladder if he's at a similar ranking in Korea. Dark's non-barcode MMR is currently slightly below Stat's, even. Stats is just a monstrous protoss.
On December 09 2019 03:31 yht9657 wrote: Clem needs to tone down his micro a bit or I fear he might soon break his wrists.
Happy is doing very well since 10 years
Happy retired 3 and a half years ago. And also didn't macro so the wrist strain wasn't as high
In sc2 yes but he is still currently top 5 world in war3 with his freaky micro. :p And according to Grubby, his sc2 experience brings him a lot because both his macro and multitask have improved.
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
Tbf the total amount of gas on the map didn't change, so I think mech wasn't particularly good on it in the first place.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
Tbf the total amount of gas on the map didn't change, so I think mech wasn't particularly good on it in the first place.
The build up is just slower. Of course, the map just sucks for Terran in general anyway so there's no reason to play on it outside of BO7.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
Well you know, I don't like it either, but if the matches are any close at least I'll be decently entertained.
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
Tbf the total amount of gas on the map didn't change, so I think mech wasn't particularly good on it in the first place.
The build up is just slower. Of course, the map just sucks for Terran in general anyway so there's no reason to play on it outside of BO7.
Yeah it's pretty awful in TvZ. 45% on Liquipedia, but only 37% if you filter out games between weaker players... Makes it the fifth worse TvZ map in LotV.
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
Tbf the total amount of gas on the map didn't change, so I think mech wasn't particularly good on it in the first place.
The build up is just slower. Of course, the map just sucks for Terran in general anyway so there's no reason to play on it outside of BO7.
Yeah it's pretty awful in TvZ. 45% on Liquipedia, but only 37% if you filter out games between weaker players... Makes it the fifth worse TvZ map in LotV.
It's depressing that there's 4 worse ones. What are they?
Clem is probably the positive surprise of this NW. Hopefully he can retain this level for 2020 and be a relevant Terran hope.
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
Tbf the total amount of gas on the map didn't change, so I think mech wasn't particularly good on it in the first place.
The build up is just slower. Of course, the map just sucks for Terran in general anyway so there's no reason to play on it outside of BO7.
Yeah it's pretty awful in TvZ. 45% on Liquipedia, but only 37% if you filter out games between weaker players... Makes it the fifth worse TvZ map in LotV.
It's depressing that there's 4 worse ones. What are they?
Clem is probably the positive surprise of this NW. Hopefully he can retain this level for 2020 and be a relevant Terran hope.
Invader, Turbo Cruise, Interloper and Darkness Sanctuary.
On December 09 2019 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: It'll be hard for Clem to win on World of Zerg.
Unrelated note, but without the rich geysers this map is really dumb. It just feels so gas starved. Doesn't even feel like you can play a half decent game of mech on it.
Tbf the total amount of gas on the map didn't change, so I think mech wasn't particularly good on it in the first place.
The build up is just slower. Of course, the map just sucks for Terran in general anyway so there's no reason to play on it outside of BO7.
Yeah it's pretty awful in TvZ. 45% on Liquipedia, but only 37% if you filter out games between weaker players... Makes it the fifth worse TvZ map in LotV.
It's depressing that there's 4 worse ones. What are they?
Clem is probably the positive surprise of this NW. Hopefully he can retain this level for 2020 and be a relevant Terran hope.
Invader, Turbo Cruise, Interloper and Darkness Sanctuary.
3 good TvZ maps that had their stats ruined by non-Korean Terrans and a huge 4 player map
On December 09 2019 04:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Throw of the century by Clem?
a throw implies you were far ahead, which was not really the case
He was very far ahead though in all aspects of the game = economy, tech, army composition. He just totally botched several engagements in a row
He botched one engagement. And it's not even a botch. Reynor's swarmhost surround was just good and clem didnt see it.
I'd say it counts as botched when you're not even attacking them but just taking a leisurely stroll into the locusts as they fire at you and block your path.
Also it's one of the most important things with that playstyle to know where your opponent is and not get hopelessly surrounded tbh.
On December 09 2019 04:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Throw of the century by Clem?
a throw implies you were far ahead, which was not really the case
He was very far ahead though in all aspects of the game = economy, tech, army composition. He just totally botched several engagements in a row
He botched one engagement. And it's not even a botch. Reynor's swarmhost surround was just good and clem didnt see it.
Battle mech is just too much of a glass cannon comp, too weak if you get one bad surround and mech is already finnicky because if you lose one engagement badly your army builds too slowly so is super easy to lose an apparent lead.
On December 09 2019 04:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Throw of the century by Clem?
a throw implies you were far ahead, which was not really the case
He was very far ahead though in all aspects of the game = economy, tech, army composition. He just totally botched several engagements in a row
He botched one engagement. And it's not even a botch. Reynor's swarmhost surround was just good and clem didnt see it.
Nah, that was just bad play from Clem. + losing cyclones to biles and leaving his tanks too open for free SH pickups is also not ideal. He had the better army every time they engaged, he should have traded better.
Not taking anything away from Reynor, he was patient played good without any mistakes and caught Clem completely off guard one time and just had the game won from there.
On December 09 2019 04:25 Elentos wrote: Well these matchups are the best Finland could hope for really.
Really? It seems to me that Serral got the toughest opponent for him. At this point he will probably crush Inno, but there is still some chance. Against any of the other 2 it would just be a freewin.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
We would like to have Bo7 ProLeague format only but it does not work as not so many countries have 4 solid GM players.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
We would like to have Bo7 ProLeague format only but it does not work as not so many countries have 4 solid GM players.
Why would you need 4 players? Couldn't you just have each team field each of their players twice (and each team sends an ace as usual)? You need 6 players per team for proper bo7 proleague anyhow.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
We would like to have Bo7 ProLeague format only but it does not work as not so many countries have 4 solid GM players.
that's a fair point. have you considered a bo3 of bo3's format? so instead of each player vs player matchup being a single map, make it a bo3, whoever wins 2 bo3s first wins the match?
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
It dosen't change anything for "one man army" team, winning every match 4-2 dosen't make it closer. It's even a particularly good format for top heavy team, since you have two life, a standard all kill format without any revive would already make it harder.
At least we get to see everyone, that's nice. But I think the CTC hit the mark with their format, only problem is that it can make for super long games.
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
We would like to have Bo7 ProLeague format only but it does not work as not so many countries have 4 solid GM players.
that's a fair point. have you considered a bo3 of bo3's format? so instead of each player vs player matchup being a single map, make it a bo3, whoever wins 2 bo3s first wins the match?
The goal is to have a simple format so everyone can understand it. If you guys want to send feedback you can email me at aeromi[@]ogaming[.tv] and I will discuss with other people
On December 09 2019 03:52 Elentos wrote: Korea rekt France. Finland rekt Italy. Italy and France are evenly matched. Could that mean...
we're in for evenly matched finals?!
i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
We would like to have Bo7 ProLeague format only but it does not work as not so many countries have 4 solid GM players.
that's a fair point. have you considered a bo3 of bo3's format? so instead of each player vs player matchup being a single map, make it a bo3, whoever wins 2 bo3s first wins the match?
The goal is to have a simple format so everyone can understand it. If you guys want to send feedback you can email me at aeromi[@]ogaming[.tv] and I will discuss with other people
no offense but the format you're currently using is not all that simple either
On December 09 2019 03:53 Schelim wrote: [quote] i would be shocked if anyone other than Serral takes a map for Finland so... not really
Serral vs 3 not-top-right-now Koreans seems an even match.
yeah maybe, but it's not really a team competition at that point is it. i find that rather anti climactic tbh
That possibility has always been the norm for NationWars. MarineLorD won NW3 essentially by himself. But the one man army teams haven't made a final since then. So you know, if nothing else, it's something different.
eh, sure. that doesn't mean i have to love the format. of course Serral is amazing but when the only excitement the other 2 guys bring is "will he cannonrush? how long will they survive?" it's a little meh
I think it‘s a decent mixture of the usual formats. It makes the life pretty hard for the one-man-armies, while at the same time not completely take them out of the competition. Especially for a nation based competition, it makes sense, imo.
And if we‘re honest here: the problem isn‘t really the format, but the fact that Reynor and Serral are just miles ahead of any other player aside from the Koreans. If they were just really good, the format would work. But when a single player is able to take out an entire team + revive, that‘s obviously an issue.
We would like to have Bo7 ProLeague format only but it does not work as not so many countries have 4 solid GM players.
that's a fair point. have you considered a bo3 of bo3's format? so instead of each player vs player matchup being a single map, make it a bo3, whoever wins 2 bo3s first wins the match?
The goal is to have a simple format so everyone can understand it. If you guys want to send feedback you can email me at aeromi[@]ogaming[.tv] and I will discuss with other people
no offense but the format you're currently using is not all that simple either
On December 09 2019 04:25 Elentos wrote: Well these matchups are the best Finland could hope for really.
Really? It seems to me that Serral got the toughest opponent for him. At this point he will probably crush Inno, but there is still some chance. Against any of the other 2 it would just be a freewin.
Zhu Ge Liang temporarily channeled Serral. It's like Goku going ultra instinct; he can't do it too often, but only when the absolute most clutch moment demands it.
Zhuge made up for his throw from last year. I got a bit worried cos that end fight seemed so similar, still remember him having the upgrade advantage and the roach lead yet he still lost the fight and got owned by biles.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
You seem to often forget 2020 will be the year army will abduct him!
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
lewl
Few pages ago, "soO #1 in EU."
Now, "soO is irrelevant and needs to git gud"
Yeah I definitely did not write that soO is better than all EU zergs.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
You seem to often forget 2020 will be the year army will abduct him!
And you seem to forget that nobody really knows when the hell the Korean army decides to carry out their kidnappings MC for some reason still hasn't received his papers.
In any case, soO should at least get half a year of play so that could be many tournaments.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
lewl
Few pages ago, "soO #1 in EU."
Now, "soO is irrelevant and needs to git gud"
those two statements don't exclude each other.
I know you're not good at reality, but please for your own sake at least try to pretend, if not to just avoid always embarrassing yourself.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
You seem to often forget 2020 will be the year army will abduct him!
Y'a with all said and done, it's nice seeing soO and Stats having fun and fooling around for what's probably their last foreign event.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
lewl
Few pages ago, "soO #1 in EU."
Now, "soO is irrelevant and needs to git gud"
Yeah I definitely did not write that soO is better than all EU zergs.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
lewl
Few pages ago, "soO #1 in EU."
Now, "soO is irrelevant and needs to git gud"
those two statements don't exclude each other.
I know you're not good at reality, but please for your own sake at least try to pretend, if not to just avoid always embarrassing yourself.
you're the one embarassing yourself right now by disagreeing with facts. He is #1 in EU (check sc2 unmasked) and does very poorly in tournaments (check recent results) at the same time.
That was such a weird game honestly. Serral rushing to 80 workers and hive like it's 2016. Seems like the kind of game Stats would be really comfortable in especially with the broods coming so late.
On December 09 2019 06:01 sneakyfox wrote: So now Finland does not use their instant revive on Serral, then if he loses just one more game he's out?
Yeah basically Korea has to beat Serral one more time and they're done with him.
It does seem like Finland would stand a better chance by reviving Serral than playing the Zhuge. But then again, Serral lost to Katowice champ soO and Zhugeliang just embarrased soO in front of his friends. I guess Zhuge > Serral confirmed.
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
On December 09 2019 06:01 sneakyfox wrote: So now Finland does not use their instant revive on Serral, then if he loses just one more game he's out?
Yeah basically Korea has to beat Serral one more time and they're done with him.
It does seem like Finland would stand a better chance by reviving Serral than playing the Zhuge. But then again, Serral lost to Katowice champ soO and Zhugeliang just embarrased soO in front of his friends. I guess Zhuge > Serral confirmed.
cant revive now, need everyone dead before revives
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
I'd argue he's the GOAT player of LotV.
It's a choice to make between Dark and Stats honestly.
On December 09 2019 05:44 sneakyfox wrote: Wonder if this is the time soO realizes that he needs to put in way more practice hours if he wants to be relevant in 2020.
lewl
Few pages ago, "soO #1 in EU."
Now, "soO is irrelevant and needs to git gud"
those two statements don't exclude each other.
I know you're not good at reality, but please for your own sake at least try to pretend, if not to just avoid always embarrassing yourself.
you're the one embarassing yourself right now by disagreeing with facts. He is #1 in EU (check sc2 unmasked) and does very poorly in tournaments (check recent results) at the same time.
As said already, SC2 unmasked shows reynor having 50 points higher than soO, and everybody already knows Serral > both. SoO's only been just okay in tournaments. Stop willfully shoving your empty head in the sand.
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
I'd argue he's the GOAT player of LotV.
It's a choice to make between Dark and Stats honestly.
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
I'd argue he's the GOAT player of LotV.
It's a choice to make between Dark and Stats honestly.
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
I'd argue he's the GOAT player of LotV.
It's a choice to make between Dark and Stats honestly.
Maru / Serral did more than Stats on LotV
Stats has more top 4 finishes in LotV than Maru in his career
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
I'd argue he's the GOAT player of LotV.
It's a choice to make between Dark and Stats honestly.
Yeah that's pretty much it. SSL 2016 season 1 was a prophetic tournament.
Hm, isn't ace match something else entirely? As far as I understood, if it's 4-4 you don't have to necessarily send the remaining players, you can pick anyone.
That would mean that Serral needs to win two maps to be sure he at least gets to play the ace match(no TheMusZero, I'm sorry).
On December 09 2019 06:09 Xain0n wrote: Hm, isn't ace match something else entirely? As far as I understood, if it's 4-4 you don't have to necessarily send the remaining players, you can pick anyone.
They have said a couple of times that an insta-revived player can't play the ace match.
I mean it's just the same thing it's been the last few years. In a normal NW match you can revive 1 player, in the finals you can revive 2 (different) players. Everyone is really making it more complicated than it needs to be.
On December 09 2019 06:11 Elentos wrote: I mean it's just the same thing it's been the last few years. In a normal NW match you can revive 1 player, in the finals you can revive 2 (different) players. Everyone is really making it more complicated than it needs to be.
What I don't get is the insta-revive. Why not just two revives?
On December 09 2019 06:11 Elentos wrote: I mean it's just the same thing it's been the last few years. In a normal NW match you can revive 1 player, in the finals you can revive 2 (different) players. Everyone is really making it more complicated than it needs to be.
What I don't get is the insta-revive. Why not just two revives?
On December 09 2019 06:11 Elentos wrote: I mean it's just the same thing it's been the last few years. In a normal NW match you can revive 1 player, in the finals you can revive 2 (different) players. Everyone is really making it more complicated than it needs to be.
What I don't get is the insta-revive. Why not just two revives?
Well Funka said you don't have to insta-revive.
lol okay. They have been saying over and over that the insta-revive can't play the ace match.
On December 09 2019 06:05 Elentos wrote: I like that Rotti is making this case for Stats as the GOAToss of LotV but to be honest nobody has a case to argue against that anyway.
I'd argue he's the GOAT player of LotV.
He’s definitely up there depending what one is weighting. I’m not sure I can really come down on a singular greatest player though. More a cluster of ‘in the conversation’ fellows.
Guys! It's not that complex, you just select two player to stay dead, the first time, and then select two player to stay dead again but those must include not more and not less than half of the already dead players
On December 09 2019 06:13 Charoisaur wrote: This is like Stats vs Pet in Proleague
Pet had the manners to leave the game faster.
Props to Zhuge for making the best out of the worst
As a viewer, it's a pleasure to watch Stat's impeccable plays, and I'm glad Zhuge kept it going as long as he could. Zhuge also didn't wait till the last building to GG out either
On December 09 2019 06:19 Elentos wrote: For all his shakiness in the online rounds, Stats has been flawless in the offline portion.
Amazing how that works every time.
There’s got to be an actual reason for this at this point. Maybe online Stats’ form is explained by a series of long time running construction projects directly next door to him, or his neighbourhood is infested with bold stray cats who invade domiciles and distract pro gamers
On December 09 2019 06:19 Elentos wrote: For all his shakiness in the online rounds, Stats has been flawless in the offline portion.
Amazing how that works every time.
There’s got to be an actual reason for this at this point. Maybe online Stats’ form is explained by a series of long time running construction projects directly next door to him, or his neighbourhood is infested with bold stray cats who invade domiciles and distract pro gamers
I would be super sold on the construction project thing. Incredibly disruptive stuff
On December 09 2019 06:19 Elentos wrote: For all his shakiness in the online rounds, Stats has been flawless in the offline portion.
Amazing how that works every time.
There’s got to be an actual reason for this at this point. Maybe online Stats’ form is explained by a series of long time running construction projects directly next door to him, or his neighbourhood is infested with bold stray cats who invade domiciles and distract pro gamers
I mean it's not like he's terrible online, he's still 6.6-6.7k on korean ladder.
On December 09 2019 06:19 Elentos wrote: For all his shakiness in the online rounds, Stats has been flawless in the offline portion.
Amazing how that works every time.
There’s got to be an actual reason for this at this point. Maybe online Stats’ form is explained by a series of long time running construction projects directly next door to him, or his neighbourhood is infested with bold stray cats who invade domiciles and distract pro gamers
Just a series of random pro gamers deciding to hang hout in Stats' apartment without asking because Stats is just such a nice dude. And he's too nice to send them away.
On December 09 2019 06:19 Elentos wrote: For all his shakiness in the online rounds, Stats has been flawless in the offline portion.
Amazing how that works every time.
There’s got to be an actual reason for this at this point. Maybe online Stats’ form is explained by a series of long time running construction projects directly next door to him, or his neighbourhood is infested with bold stray cats who invade domiciles and distract pro gamers
I mean it's not like he's terrible online, he's still 6.6-6.7k on korean ladder.
Dunno about ladder, but his match win-rate drops 20% when you look at offline vs online tournaments in 2019.
On December 09 2019 06:19 Elentos wrote: For all his shakiness in the online rounds, Stats has been flawless in the offline portion.
Amazing how that works every time.
There’s got to be an actual reason for this at this point. Maybe online Stats’ form is explained by a series of long time running construction projects directly next door to him, or his neighbourhood is infested with bold stray cats who invade domiciles and distract pro gamers
I mean it's not like he's terrible online, he's still 6.6-6.7k on korean ladder.
Dunno about ladder, but his match win-rate drops 20% when you look at offline vs online tournaments in 2019.
There's some real WTF losses in there when he plays online.
So Avilo .. ...was right on this one. You just make make vipers and late-game freewin vs mech if you have half the control of top protosses with casters.
On December 09 2019 07:07 xongnox wrote: So Avilo was right. You just make make vipers and late-game freewin vs mech if you have half the control of top protosses with casters.
Higher level Terrans (Maru, TY) understand that you need ghosts otherwise its just a freewin for Zerg in this META
On December 09 2019 07:06 royalroadweed wrote: Can he afford ghosts? He never really got a bank but maybe he could squeeze out 2-3?
He would also need both ghost upgrades because lurkers outrange ghosts and he'd want EMPs on the vipers.
I think Maru and TY could have won that game but Inno is too distracted by the wonders of Paris.
Idk if it'd be broken but it'd be nice to maintain snipe's range advantage over lurkers even if they keep this upgrade in the game. Maybe snipe would be too strong against BLs but at least it would promote more bio play as it seems like BLs are only good against bio now
On December 09 2019 07:08 MarianoSC2 wrote: Isnt it over already?
What a waste by Inno tbh. If that was Maru playing I am quite sure he would win, Serral does not look completely unbeatable today
It's really disappointing that Korea's top 3 all decided to sit out both HSC and NW. I guess when you're that good, the small tournaments are too much of a bother.
And to all the balance whiners I actually think TvZ is very close to being balanced. Lurker range should be fixed yes, but other than that Serral is just a lot better than Inno
On December 09 2019 07:08 MarianoSC2 wrote: Isnt it over already?
What a waste by Inno tbh. If that was Maru playing I am quite sure he would win, Serral does not look completely unbeatable today
It's really disappointing that Korea's top 3 all decided to sit out both HSC and NW. I guess when you're that good, the small tournaments are too much of a bother.
For Maru to leave Asia you have to offer a ton of money because he hates travel.
On December 09 2019 07:18 opisska wrote: So this is basically a somewhat confusing Stats-Serral match, with some people messing around to make it sound like a team game
Yeah, I don't know why some people insist this is not a confusing way to do a Bo3
On December 09 2019 07:19 blooblooblahblah wrote: I want Serral to lose and then they revive TheMusZero and this time he successfully cannon rushes and wins the series.
On December 09 2019 07:12 MarianoSC2 wrote: And to all the balance whiners I actually think TvZ is very close to being balanced. Lurker range should be fixed yes, but other than that Serral is just a lot better than Inno
It might be balanced but it's definitely a lot easier for a good Terran to just instantly die with one big mistake than it is for the same to happen to a good Zerg. Which I think is kind of dumb.
I also think it's a problem if only one or two players (if they even can) can beat the top players of a race. Throughout the entire history of the game it has never been like that before. I don't believe it's just because Serral/Reynor/Dark and even Rogue are just that much better than the great players of the past.
On December 09 2019 07:12 MarianoSC2 wrote: And to all the balance whiners I actually think TvZ is very close to being balanced. Lurker range should be fixed yes, but other than that Serral is just a lot better than Inno
It might be balanced but it's definitely a lot easier for a good Terran to just instantly die with one big mistake than it is for the same to happen to a good Zerg. Which I think is kind of dumb.
I also think it's a problem if only one or two players (if they even can) can beat the top players of a race. Throughout the entire history of the game it has never been like that before. I don't believe it's just because Serral/Reynor/Dark and even Rogue are just that much better than the great players of the past.
We can start wondering if blizzard would have reacted more heavily to the state of the game if Reynor and Serral were Koreans imo.
On December 09 2019 07:12 MarianoSC2 wrote: And to all the balance whiners I actually think TvZ is very close to being balanced. Lurker range should be fixed yes, but other than that Serral is just a lot better than Inno
Y'a tvz seems to be pretty ok from looking at WESG and HSC, zvp was the one looking absolutly broken.
On December 09 2019 07:25 Calliope wrote: How good do you think Serral would be if he was a terran, for example? Or take Clem, would he have the results of Reynor had he been zerg?
Still would've won a few WCS but not the 6 he's won. Maybe GSL vs TW and homestory cup. No way he would have won blizzcon.
On December 09 2019 07:34 SC-Shield wrote: Could colossi help against this ling/baneling army? There has to be a better unit composition to deal with this...
Only if you have a million forcefields. The better unit composition is mass carrier.
On December 09 2019 07:25 Calliope wrote: How good do you think Serral would be if he was a terran, for example? Or take Clem, would he have the results of Reynor had he been zerg?
Still would've won a few WCS but not the 6 he's won. Maybe GSL vs TW and homestory cup. No way he would have won blizzcon.
He won blizzcon in the same year that there was no zerg in any GSL finals... Not even mentioning how he wrecked Rogue and Dark on his way to being world champion.
On December 09 2019 07:34 SC-Shield wrote: Could colossi help against this ling/baneling army? There has to be a better unit composition to deal with this...
If you scout colossi, you actually go ravager ling bane to counter it.
Honestly, Stats took a couple of bad fights where he lost all his expensive stuff, the composition itself isn't that bad against what Serral is doing but you can't get surrounded on creep by adrenal lings.
Yeah PvZ is in a very sad state... Not sure what to do about it though it just seems completely screwed. Even such an elementar thing as lings seem way to cost effective, them alone can screw up the protoss at any time if he does not defend absolutely perfectly. And what is the risk for Zerg in it? Almost none...
On December 09 2019 07:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah PvZ is in a very sad state... Not sure what to do about it though it just seems completely screwed. Even such an elementar thing as lings seem way to cost effective, them alone can screw up the protoss at any time if he does not defend absolutely perfectly. And what is the risk for Zerg in it? Almost none...
What do you guys think could help?
To be fair, Stats had no other upgrades than +3 attack.
On December 09 2019 07:25 Calliope wrote: How good do you think Serral would be if he was a terran, for example? Or take Clem, would he have the results of Reynor had he been zerg?
Still would've won a few WCS but not the 6 he's won. Maybe GSL vs TW and homestory cup. No way he would have won blizzcon.
He won blizzcon in the same year that there was no zerg in any GSL finals... Not even mentioning how he wrecked Rogue and Dark on his way to being world champion.
That doesn't mean he would have won as Terran. Terran has been the weakest race since mid 2017. Maru's level and protoss losing to mass proxy just hid that in 2018.
On December 09 2019 07:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah PvZ is in a very sad state... Not sure what to do about it though it just seems completely screwed. Even such an elementar thing as lings seem way to cost effective, them alone can screw up the protoss at any time if he does not defend absolutely perfectly. And what is the risk for Zerg in it? Almost none...
What do you guys think could help?
To be fair, Stats had no other upgrades than +3 attack.
Its not just this game though, did you see WESG quals?
On December 09 2019 07:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah PvZ is in a very sad state... Not sure what to do about it though it just seems completely screwed. Even such an elementar thing as lings seem way to cost effective, them alone can screw up the protoss at any time if he does not defend absolutely perfectly. And what is the risk for Zerg in it? Almost none...
What do you guys think could help?
To be fair, Stats had no other upgrades than +3 attack.
Its not just this game though, did you see WESG quals?
Have not seen any of them. I have not seen that many PvZ matches in the new patch.
On December 09 2019 07:25 Calliope wrote: How good do you think Serral would be if he was a terran, for example? Or take Clem, would he have the results of Reynor had he been zerg?
Still would've won a few WCS but not the 6 he's won. Maybe GSL vs TW and homestory cup. No way he would have won blizzcon.
if Serral would play terran, Blizzard would have given huge buffs to terran and Serral would've won Blizzcon regardless unless he gets out TvTed
On December 09 2019 07:25 Calliope wrote: How good do you think Serral would be if he was a terran, for example? Or take Clem, would he have the results of Reynor had he been zerg?
Still would've won a few WCS but not the 6 he's won. Maybe GSL vs TW and homestory cup. No way he would have won blizzcon.
He won blizzcon in the same year that there was no zerg in any GSL finals... Not even mentioning how he wrecked Rogue and Dark on his way to being world champion.
That doesn't mean he would have won as Terran. Terran has been the weakest race since mid 2017. Maru's level and protoss losing to mass proxy just hid that in 2018.
That also doesn't mean Maru would win everything he won as Zerg. What kind of logic is that?
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus.
Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago.
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
Maybe not have a ton of maps that have huge centers that have no bases or anything so Zergs can just open the floodgates and surround. Blizzard's map picking process is either always at least 1 TLMC behind the meta or actually malicious.
On December 09 2019 07:25 Calliope wrote: How good do you think Serral would be if he was a terran, for example? Or take Clem, would he have the results of Reynor had he been zerg?
Still would've won a few WCS but not the 6 he's won. Maybe GSL vs TW and homestory cup. No way he would have won blizzcon.
He won blizzcon in the same year that there was no zerg in any GSL finals... Not even mentioning how he wrecked Rogue and Dark on his way to being world champion.
That doesn't mean he would have won as Terran. Terran has been the weakest race since mid 2017. Maru's level and protoss losing to mass proxy just hid that in 2018.
That also doesn't mean Maru would win everything he won as Zerg. What kind of logic is that?
Maybe he wouldn't have it's impossible to say. In 2018 Zerg wasn't completely broken or anything (unlike 2019) but Terran was the weakest race. Terran is also the most fragile race where one big mistake can lose you the game which is another reason Serral would not have been able to do as well.
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus.
Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago.
I think there's such a thing as maps that are fine for PvZ that don't involve the features you mentioned. But the fact of the matter remains that for every SC2 match both players have a say in what maps get played so Zerg will veto the good stuff for Protoss and Protoss has to settle with the least terrible options, which are still better for Zerg.
On December 09 2019 07:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah PvZ is in a very sad state... Not sure what to do about it though it just seems completely screwed. Even such an elementar thing as lings seem way to cost effective, them alone can screw up the protoss at any time if he does not defend absolutely perfectly. And what is the risk for Zerg in it? Almost none...
What do you guys think could help?
To be fair, Stats had no other upgrades than +3 attack.
Its not just this game though, did you see WESG quals?
Have not seen any of them. I have not seen that many PvZ matches in the new patch.
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
I really hope so. Might make things more interesting.
On December 09 2019 07:50 Xain0n wrote: Serral carrying Finland to win Nation Wars and all you can come out with is whining about balance... You cannot nerf JOONA SOTALA!
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus.
Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago.
I think there's such a thing as maps that are fine for PvZ that don't involve the features you mentioned. But the fact of the matter remains that for every SC2 match both players have a say in what maps get played so Zerg will veto the good stuff for Protoss and Protoss has to settle with the least terrible options, which are still better for Zerg.
Not completely sure if that's true in the current meta. Last map pool for example zerg was favoured to some extent on every single map in PvZ. Maybe an incredibly droppable map would be good for Protoss, but then you run into problems in other match-ups.
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus.
Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago.
I think you're right, something else needs to happen with PvZ.
But overall I just don't get what they have done with Zerg the last year or so. Once creep really gets spread out it's extremely difficult for the opponent to contest. And then obviously becomes a massive advantage for the Zerg. This advantage used to be a matter of back and forth with the opponent, now it's basically just a part of Zerg macro.
Combine that with the other big mobility advantage that Zerg have gotten with the nydus. Wasn't the point that zerg had sick mobility but was somewhat confined to their base and their creep? Now they can just teleport.
These factors are what makes the ling/bane runbys even more difficult to deal with, almost impossibly so.
And on top of that the race has the best lategame with the best and extremely versatile casters. Which they have a much easier time reaching because of giant maps and a great defensive unit in the queen.
Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which imo can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
For context, a 200 points gap is as large as the gap between #2 (currently Dark 3049) and #8 (currently TY at 2855).
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points.
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points.
I don't agree at all. If you play a bo1 format, every map should count; also, 24-2 is better than 17-2
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points.
Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them.
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points.
Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them.
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus.
Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago.
I think there's such a thing as maps that are fine for PvZ that don't involve the features you mentioned. But the fact of the matter remains that for every SC2 match both players have a say in what maps get played so Zerg will veto the good stuff for Protoss and Protoss has to settle with the least terrible options, which are still better for Zerg.
Not completely sure if that's true in the current meta. Last map pool for example zerg was favoured to some extent on every single map in PvZ. Maybe an incredibly droppable map would be good for Protoss, but then you run into problems in other match-ups.
I think one good change would be the removal of doodads where zerg players hide overlords. On a lot of maps like Simulacrum and World of Sleepers they seem to be intentionally placed in such a manner so that zerg can scout protoss gas timings on their natural with barely any effort or risk.
Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
On December 09 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: It will be interesting to see if Blizzard changes the style of the maps for next season, and if they think zerg lategame is in a good place now.
You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus.
Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago.
I think there's such a thing as maps that are fine for PvZ that don't involve the features you mentioned. But the fact of the matter remains that for every SC2 match both players have a say in what maps get played so Zerg will veto the good stuff for Protoss and Protoss has to settle with the least terrible options, which are still better for Zerg.
Not completely sure if that's true in the current meta. Last map pool for example zerg was favoured to some extent on every single map in PvZ. Maybe an incredibly droppable map would be good for Protoss, but then you run into problems in other match-ups.
I think one good change would be the removal of doodads where zerg players hide overlords. On a lot of maps like Simulacrum and World of Sleepers they seem to be intentionally placed in such a manner so that zerg can scout protoss gas timings on their natural with barely any effort or risk.
Well that's in Blizzard's hands right now. The maps have been made a long time ago: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/549393-tlnet-map-contest-13-finalists, and they by and large have overlord pods (though ofc there's some variation--on Simulacrum as you say the overlord pod is right above the gases whereas on Nightshade for example the pod is some ways away from the gases).
Blizz can of course make any change they want including removing overlord pods. Making Protoss 2-base all-ins slightly harder to scout won't fix PvZ of course, but maybe it would be a step in the right direction.
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently (edit: there's one barcode terran). It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players.
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players.
Ladder rankings only matter so much when Protoss gets decimated in events like WESG.
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players.
If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead?
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players.
If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead?
Aligulac would disprove your point though. Its does paint a grim picture about protoss's chances in PvZ. However, their current balance stats places terran as the worst by far.
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players.
If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead?
Aligulac would disprove your point though. Its does paint a grim picture about protoss's chances in PvZ. However, their current balance stats places terran as the worst by far.
That's not my point, it's Tigon's. Aligulac's current balance stats is four days old.
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO).
I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players.
If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead?
Someone made a strong argument that Aligulac somewhat underrates protoss true rating, due to the way that the overall rating is algorithmically determined and pvp's volatility. Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in between; protoss is indeed underrated by aligulac, but also I just think the talent pool for zerg at the highest level is just much bigger than terran, and terran's slightly bigger than protoss. I think it has little to do with balance, at least for the current patch.
By the way, I don't know how relevant this is, but a paper written about alphastar reported: "AlphaStar Final achieved ratings of 6,275 Match Making Rating (MMR) for Protoss, 6,048 for Terran and 5,835 for Zerg."
People have been saying for the longest time that zerg is the easiest race to learn, but it seems even during the supposedly zerg-favored meta (before this current patch) this AI strongly disagrees. But computer and humans think and act differently, so maybe's that's a counterargument.
On December 09 2019 09:04 tigon_ridge wrote: By the way, I don't know how relevant this is, but a paper written about alphastar reported: "AlphaStar Final achieved ratings of 6,275 Match Making Rating (MMR) for Protoss, 6,048 for Terran and 5,835 for Zerg."
People have been saying for the longest time that zerg is the easiest race to learn, but it seems even during the supposedly zerg-favored meta (before this current patch) this AI strongly disagrees. But computer and humans think and act differently, so maybe's that's a counterargument.
Zerg is the inherently reactive race so presumably that’s reflected there.
Protoss you can do well executed timing attacks and prosper pretty well on ladder, I don’t think it’s surprising that Alphastar’s Protoss has prospered a bit more given the complexities involved.
On December 09 2019 09:04 tigon_ridge wrote: By the way, I don't know how relevant this is, but a paper written about alphastar reported: "AlphaStar Final achieved ratings of 6,275 Match Making Rating (MMR) for Protoss, 6,048 for Terran and 5,835 for Zerg."
People have been saying for the longest time that zerg is the easiest race to learn, but it seems even during the supposedly zerg-favored meta (before this current patch) this AI strongly disagrees. But computer and humans think and act differently, so maybe's that's a counterargument.
Zerg is the inherently reactive race so presumably that’s reflected there.
Protoss you can do well executed timing attacks and prosper pretty well on ladder, I don’t think it’s surprising that Alphastar’s Protoss has prospered a bit more given the complexities involved.
I think we should all tread very lightly when trying discern anything about balance from AlphaStar.
That said, I do believe there's a strong degree of 'currently, the best players in the world happen to play zerg', and that's been a large part of their ascent. Between Serral, Reynor, Dark and Rogue you have the 2 best foreigners and probably 2 of the top 3 or 4 Koreans and I don't think that's just because of their race.
Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Perhaps Serral's unsurmountable uphill in these comparisons is also because of the fact his vs Korean competition from last 3 years consist very small sample of 2nd and 3rd tier Koreans. His competition has been so far mainly concentrated to matches against scrubs like Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, SoO, Trap, Classic, TY and ilks. Its impossible make seriously convincing track record if competing only with these kind guys, as also his ridiculous record shows:
Since Jan 1st 2017 Serral is 172–110 (60.99%) in games and 62–26 (70.45%) in matches against Koreans.
He clearly suffers from the fact that Koreans' internal fight somehow filter only unfavorable guys to play against him. ;-)
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
The kind of tricky thing with Serral is the era he plays in, he never in all his carrer faced a Korean player younger than him. Most Koreans players now are between 24 and 27, an age at which no one outside of Nestea ever won a Korean tournament before 2017.
This year saw the oldest GSL player we ever had since Nestea in Rogue, the oldest IEM Katowice champ, the oldest Blizzcon champ, the oldest WESG champ and the oldest Super Tournament champ. It's a young man games and Koreans are getting old.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
The kind of tricky thing with Serral is the era he plays in, he never in all his carrer faced a Korean player younger than him. Most Koreans players now are between 24 and 27, an age at which no one outside of Nestea ever won a Korean tournament before 2017.
This year saw the oldest GSL player we ever had since Nestea in Rogue, the oldest IEM Katowice champ, the oldest Blizzcon champ, the oldest WESG champ and the oldest Super Tournament champ. It's a young man games and Korean are getting old.
Yeah. Declining quality of competition and relative lack of newcomers in Korean scene doesn't however seems to have any major impact to how tournament wins are weighted in relation to Serral. It is clear that Korean competition is still more fierce than foreigner, but this has been changing lately. Serral's lack of GSL career can be used as fault against his resume, but it's meaning gets over exaggerated considering the state of competitive scene as a whole, and Serral's career split and consistency vs Koreans. Hypotetical GSL with Serral would certainly be qualitatively higher level than GSL without Serral (usual argument against his potential success in the GSL is that Koreans could prepare better against him and that is true, but same time that other side of the argument tends to get neglected, like it would be somehow impossible for Serral to get any benefits from longer preparations.) Anyway...
Hopefully the region lock gets lifted as soon as possible. That would do good for everyone. I think that foreign scene is qualitatively ready for unified competitive global scene.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points.
Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them.
Fair enough.
obviously enough
I seriously can't believe your original thought came out of your head and onto this forum
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated).
You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2.
Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points.
Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them.
Fair enough.
obviously enough
I seriously can't believe your original thought came out of your head and onto this forum
My bad. I read your TL articles, so I know how you're feeling. ;-) (Just kidding...most of your writing is just fine. Most.)
BTW "Fair enough" doesn't necessarily mean "Okay, I concede." It could also mean "your logic is at least somewhat passable, but I don't feel like arguing about it." Fact is, in engineering and science, outlier data samples are often discounted.
Goblin executed a good cannon rush into phoenix build. That wasn't something I contested, so why you and others got your panties in a bunch is curious. Hell, I'd followed printf and other cannon rush streamers for quite a while. I find it entertaining and would love to see more maps that are more conducive CRs. That said, CR is not quite yet a significant part of highest tier competitive meta, and I just tend to find losses due to "cast these dice and pray" strategies to be insignificant. It wasn't as if Goblin is a well-known high level player and it's predictable that he would do something weird. If Serral were playing sOs, parting, or Classic, obviously he would've been a lot more prepared for cannon shenanigans. Whatever. It's just one person's opinion.
Maybe someday also wide Finnish audience will understand value of this kind achievements and appreciate accordingly. Its good that YLE sports department at least make news now consistently on esports, which directly leads to more news in other medias too.
There is a lot of similarities what it once was with Finnish "Flying Finn" Rally drivers. At first rally wasn't considered as sport by vast majority of Finnish people. Now the Finnish rally scene is the last stand and the mainstay of whole sport, nobody questioning it's status as Sport.
Serral's and ENCE's role in making esport as legitimate sport in Finland cannot be over estimated.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you."
The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you.
For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you.
The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then".
The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually!
I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
I don't think being in Korea means that much these days. There are no teams beside Jinair, no team league, no official organization and no new talents. If Serral had played in Korea since the beginning, i doubt he would have been this good as there are no "easy" WCS money in Korea even though the GSL has been way less competitive.
Yo, Stats fought back hard to get back to even game state against Serral (Super impressive), then blindly charged into his opponent's side of the map and got surrounded on creep.
He didn't need to do that. He had a mothership already. He could just clear the creep on the left, and keep Serral in the dark, and force repositioning with a mass recall into the main, and then a nexus recall back home after some damage was done while teching into tempests. In that position, that 100% would have put him a little ahead. If he then went on to win the game, an equally sized group of different posters would be clamoring and complaining that Zerg can't beat Protoss when Protoss plays perfectly.
He didn't do that though, instead he made a single very bad choice, and got massively punished for it.
Starcraft is a hard game. I know it's too much to ask, but let's celebrate the fact that two of the very best players in the world put on an incredibly exciting series, not complain about the doom of Korea or imaginary imbalance.
On December 10 2019 03:11 ThunderJunk wrote: Yo, Stats fought back hard to get back to even game state against Serral (Super impressive), then blindly charged into his opponent's side of the map and got surrounded on creep.
He didn't need to do that. He had a mothership already. He could just clear the creep on the left, and keep Serral in the dark, and force repositioning with a mass recall into the main, and then a nexus recall back home after some damage was done while teching into tempests. In that position, that 100% would have put him a little ahead. If he then went on to win the game, an equally sized group of different posters would be clamoring and complaining that Zerg can't beat Protoss when Protoss plays perfectly.
He didn't do that though, instead he made a single very bad choice, and got massively punished for it.
Starcraft is a hard game. I know it's too much to ask, but let's celebrate the fact that two of the very best players in the world put on an incredibly exciting series, not complain about the doom of Korea or imaginary imbalance.
Thank you, exactly what I think, when I real all these posts. Balance isn t perfect, but the meta is still shifting after the Patch, so I think the best thing is to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions. And the Korean Scene and WCS will most likely survive another year. All this negativity isn t realy helping, to keep the scene alive either....
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you."
The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you.
For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you.
The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then".
The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually!
I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist.
I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all". Either you misinterpreted the basic english or youre purposely building a strawman. It's just not impressive compared to someone like sOs's feats. Simple.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene.
Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison.
I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success)
Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth.
Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you."
The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you.
For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you.
The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then".
The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually!
I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist.
I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all". Either you misinterpreted the basic english or your purposely building a strawman. It's just not impressive compared to someone like sOs's feats. Simple.
How is it not? I mean really?
Serral’s put in a near two year run where his biggest failure was what a Ro8 in Katowice? He has the highest v Korean win rate ever and he doesn’t even get to play the bad Koreans. ELO inflation is a thing but he’s got the highest ELO ever. Yes WCS farming but he’s earned more money from the game than sOs. Korean progamers themselves say he’s the best player around currently
sOs is a great player himself, and one of my personal favourites to boot, has he ever really been ‘the best’? He was great in Proleague and had other great results, he’s specifically known as $o$ for having great performances in huge big money tournaments rather than being a consistently dominant player.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
First it was: "If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all." Now it is: "If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you."
The fact that in your head the case is: sOs is more impressive, therefore Serral doesn't seem impressive at all, says so much about you.
For one thing it tells me that you have probably zero ability to actually factor in context. You have a predefined opinion and because "it was a stronger era no less" nothing Serral could ever do could even be considered impressive by you.
The only thing you need to do is drop the "the scene was stronger back then".
The first poster considered Serral goat. Your response wasn't: Serral is impressive, but I disagree. It was: Serral isn't impressive. Damn, I thought I'd seen peak Korean elitists, but no one I saw said Serral was unimpressive so casually!
I could rant more about your "logic" xD but let's be real. It's like trying to convince a JW God doesn't exist.
I never said what serral is doing is not "impressive at all". Either you misinterpreted the basic english or your purposely building a strawman. It's just not impressive compared to someone like sOs's feats. Simple.
How is it not? I mean really?
Serral’s put in a near two year run where his biggest failure was what a Ro8 in Katowice? He has the highest v Korean win rate ever and he doesn’t even get to play the bad Koreans. ELO inflation is a thing but he’s got the highest ELO ever. Yes WCS farming but he’s earned more money from the game than sOs. Korean progamers themselves say he’s the best player around currently
sOs is a great player himself, and one of my personal favourites to boot, has he ever really been ‘the best’? He was great in Proleague and had other great results, he’s specifically known as $o$ for having great performances in huge big money tournaments rather than being a consistently dominant player.
All I'm saying is that sOs has better tournament results which is what the discussion between me and unlarva were initially.
Just like I think Maru has the superior resume despite me thinking serral is the better player.
Serral has not transcended the definition of success unless you look at it strictly from a monetary standpoint which is flawed since prize pool is not correlated with prestige/difficulty of tournament, and irrelevant anyway since i think Maru still edges him out in earnings. In any case the discussion was about tournament places
Serral's resume is pretty poor in comparison to the Korean greats simply because he does not prove himself in the most difficult settings at all times like the Koreans do. That's not transcending the definition of success like unlarva said.
Cutting long train of embedded quotes here. @BerserkSword
The game and competitive scene isn't what is was back in days, thats clear. Still that same group of Top Korean Elite players who were competing and earning their all-time credentials during those hey-days of SC2 are largely still there and active and competing at the top level of the game. It is not like there was the time and then there was a time, totally separated and in their own vacuum bubbles. Its historical process, in which one point young dude from Finland was able to put his full concentration to the game, beginning to seriously compete against nearly impenetrable Korean hegemony, against just those same guys who form the core of SC2 legends and ethos, harvesting their scalps and skulls like Yautja warrior doing his initiation rite, left and right. He earned his clan marking and a sign of warrior to his forehead by lifting the trophy in Blizzcon with teary eyes, but what he did was the fact that the first time in the history there was "foreigner" to whom that word couldn't be attached without also changing its meaning. Full boiled, veteran Korean Elite Predators with long lists of insane hunts in a past, and piles of trophies, were forced to give a nod of acceptance and consider him as their peer...
And it didn't end there. Other, lesser alien initiates saw same happenings too, how skinny and socially little bit ackward dude from Pornainen gave lessons to guys who weren't used to give much chances to their foreign counterparts. Psychological, mental class roof was shattered permanently. The perception was that for all: Its possible!!!
While a dust piles up slowly in corners of desolated Korean dojos, a young line of reynors, clems, skillous and co. are emerging to the contention from European scenes. They all knew/know now how good they have to be if ever seriously contending Koreans, but they've also Serral for studying advanced katas of the art.
The scene is transcending and the focal point a change of it has been Serral, and lately also Reynor.
The point being here that how nostalgic of our feelings toward some SC2 era may be, we just cannot forget happenings and trends within time frames latest of 10-20% of the existence of entire game/scene. Its not 2013 anymore. Its not like foreigners and their doings can be just rendered out straightforwardly altogether from evaluations.
"Intangibles" related to Serral are hard to ennumerate, but they are there, and everyone knows in their hearts they have had a major impact to the curriculum and prospects of the game.
Im so tired of everyone judging balance around Serral. And of ppl saying Serral wouldnt win as much as other race.
Its not about the race. Just in the games he plays against other top players, you can clearly see he can just do more things at the same time, and do them better than any other players.
If he was terran, he would still find ways to outmultitask out harass opponents and macro like a beast. Hes just on more screens at the same time.
You terran players are like martyr who think any time a terran player does well ( Maru, byun, innovation, mvp, teaja ..etc) its because hes a god and is 1000 times better than others while playing with worst race.
Meanwhile, If the top player is Serral and is zerg, its because its the race.
News flash, Serral has more raw skills than any other player ever in the history of the game. He doesnt rely on gimmicks or strong all-ins or imbalanced era to win, he relies on better macro, more screen per minute, and out multitasking his opponents by making less mistakes and provoking more mistakes.
This terran circle jerk victim complex has to end. Terran is the strongest its ever been, foreign terrans just arent as good as zerg players, get over yourselves.
You could make zerg super underpowered and Serral would still win fairly often because hes just way better than his opponents, and with a pool of 30 players, most games are decided by skills and not balance.
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Terran is the strongest its ever been.
Sometimes I fantasize about making an alt account where all I did was quote amazing things people say. It would have all sorts of gems like "Serral's loss against Goblin doesn't count so he only dropped 1 map instead of 2" and "Serral's accomplishments aren't impressive" and "Terran is the strongest it's ever been." I'm a little weird like that.
I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote: I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die.
So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw...
On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote: I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die.
So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw...
Special said himself his offrace is "trash", around 5K MMR.
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Terran is the strongest its ever been.
Sometimes I fantasize about making an alt account where all I did was quote amazing things people say. It would have all sorts of gems like "Serral's loss against Goblin doesn't count so he only dropped 1 map instead of 2" and "Serral's accomplishments aren't impressive" and "Terran is the strongest it's ever been." I'm a little weird like that.
‘The best of TL’s wisdom’ would be a hell of a Twitter follow!
Not particularly useful for me as I have no life and basically catch every post on here anyway, but I’m sure others would enjoy it
On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote: I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die.
So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw...
Special said himself his offrace is "trash", around 5K MMR.
Well, I missed that. My point wasn t that Lambo is better than Special anyways, but that it s interesting to see pros Offracing in general. Like BeastyQT, who was a terran most of the time, but now is almost as good with protoss and got GM with all 4 races, while not beeing a pro player anymore. I know there have been some all-matchups-BO9s in the past, wich was allways great to watch. Would love to see a bigger tournament with that format, not "just" small showmatches.
On December 10 2019 16:00 UnLarva wrote: I have had long hopes for Serral would just play more/at least occasionally (maybe in lower tier tournaments) with Terran or Protoss (or with both). Publicly, with his own face and being, for just to show how big parts of "universal SC2 skill" are in fact race-irrelevant, and for making that more transparent to casual, lower tier players. His doings (particularly) in these kind things could seriously impact to healthiness of various debates. God-tier Zerg Grandmaster playing as Terran or Protoss grandmaster would dispel some unfortunate concepts about balance at the top level.
I'm pretty sure he could perform very high level with either of his off-races, especially after some intensive training period.
(probably does already, we only not knowing that. 7-7.5k MMR player of any race must know other two races too thoroughly anyway, and best way to learn is to look things from all sides of the trench, following the wisdom written down already several millenias ago. "Know Your Enemy" - Sun Tzu)
Hope will never die.
So true.. A lot of progamers usually warm up with there off races anyway and get all 3 of them to GM. Just lately I saw Lambo vs Special, where Lambo played Terran and Special Zerg on their Streams. It wasn t super high level but still a great show for the viewers Lambo won super convincingly btw...
Special said himself his offrace is "trash", around 5K MMR.
Well, I missed that. My point wasn t that Lambo is better than Special anyways, but that it s interesting to see pros Offracing in general. Like BeastyQT, who was a terran most of the time, but now is almost as good with protoss and got GM with all 4 races, while not beeing a pro player anymore. I know there have been some all-matchups-BO9s in the past, wich was allways great to watch. Would love to see a bigger tournament with that format, not "just" small showmatches.
I think it’d be idea side content at HSC, run a small off-race tournament and have other pros who play those races on the couch, making fun of how bad their peers play their race.
Would be pretty fun, I think you’d need that kind of vibe though. Would be especially fun to have matches that pros complain are unbalanced but from the other side.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene.
Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison.
I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success)
Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth.
Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He
But he doesnt confine himself in non Korean enviroment. He clashes with the best of them pretty often. And beats them almost always. And even in the few times he lost, he didnt look weak and it was in later steps of the tourney.
But you cant put aside Serrals dominance cus there are no more korean teams anymore. This very same argument nulifiea itself.
Koreans dont have the upside of a rich team scenario anymore. But so does Serral. When sOs was dominant, he had a team to practice and test and better analysis the game. So he had the same perks his competition. Same happens to Serral (his condition is even worse, since theres still Jin Air - which happens to concentrate the most dominants players of Korea). He lacks the same perks the the nowadays korean scene lacks: rich team scenario. And keeps beating them all for 2 years.
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene.
Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison.
I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success)
Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth.
Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He
But he doesnt confine himself in non Korean enviroment. He clashes with the best of them pretty often. And beats them almost always. And even in the few times he lost, he didnt look weak and it was in later steps of the tourney.
But you cant put aside Serrals dominance cus there are no more korean teams anymore. This very same argument nulifiea itself.
Koreans dont have the upside of a rich team scenario anymore. But so does Serral. When sOs was dominant, he had a team to practice and test and better analysis the game. So he had the same perks his competition. Same happens to Serral (his condition is even worse, since theres still Jin Air - which happens to concentrate the most dominants players of Korea). He lacks the same perks the the nowadays korean scene lacks: rich team scenario. And keeps beating them all for 2 years.
The argument doesn’t nullify itself at all.
Like I said before despite being part of a team having perks, those perks were outweighed by the level of difficulty of the Korea scene back then. sOs has better tournament success in a MUCH tougher environment than Serral.
Until serral immerses himself in the meat grinder that is Korea or wins like multiple Blizzcons/IEM caliber tournaments his single Blizzcon, his farming of the protected wcs circuit , and winning a handful of some of the more “fun” tournaments doesn’t put him on the same level of tournament success as guys like sOs dark and inno for example.
If you’re not going to participate in the gsl then you better have a hell of an impressive resume to make up for it. I’m guessing that’s why serral only ranked 18 in tl GOAT contest lol
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
He's going to at least need to be doing it longer than someone like sOs did, since sOs did his thing in Korea during a stronger era.
On December 09 2019 13:49 Noa Greenini wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:14 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 13:08 BerserkSword wrote:
On December 09 2019 12:59 UnLarva wrote:
On December 09 2019 11:57 Kitai wrote: Damn, Serral keeps piling on the accomplishments. With every other player out there it's like you're waiting for the slump to come after the peak but he's been just red hot for like 2 years straight. History in the making for sure.
Even when he looks shaky for his peak standards, it is still usually enough to win, and he almost never look really weak even when losing a match, which tend to be still usually close calls. His doings over these last two years are something that has forced people use different standards for Serral and others when evaluating success. Ro4 in Blizzcon or Ro8 in IEM are very great achievements for everyone else, but in Serral's case he is "slumping" or "washed up" or "rekt". Think about it.
It is soon really impossible not to consider him as The GOAT, even without the GSL participation and success as no player can show better 2 years long continuous tenure vs Top Koreans. He is transcending the definition of "success" in SC2.
If I measure serral to someone like prime sOs’ standard, serral doesn’t really seem impressive at all.
I see. How many years and how many more top placements and wins in tournaments he would then need you to measure his standard as "really impressive"?
I mean, probably literally all of them. And he also would need to drop zero maps every time, just like sOs. Don't you remember when sOs dominated/got super deep in every tournament he participated in? sOs won 5 premiers in 7 years, how is Serral gonna beat that with only 11 premiers since 2018? That's only like 5.5/year. And Serral has basically fallen off. Did you know he lost to Raynor (a foreigner) in WCS? When did you see sOs lose to a foreigner this year in WCS? Didn't think so! ;-)
Context matters. sOs was in Korea his entire career, in a stronger era no less.
sOs has won Korean tournaments ,TWO blizzcons, and has stayed near the top while playing in that era for a LONG time. All of those second place finishes and top 4s in those korean tournaments blow serral's farming of WCS circuit trophies and HSC wins out of the water imo
If you think Serral's run has been more impressive than what sOs did I dont know what to tell you.
sOs was also in Korea in full time team environments in a cut throat competitive scene for years, which is tough to prosper in but also comes with many advantages too.
Contextually speaking Serral broke through not just the ‘not being a Korean’ ceiling but also became one of the best players in the world while not spending a particularly large amount of time in Korea either. It a basketball player or NFL player became the best player in the world (or close) without having played in the NBA or NFL respectively that would be a news story of note.
sOs and others have impressive achievements for sure, equally they have their share of slumps and failures as well, which Serral has less of, since becoming an elite player.
Everyone has their slightly different valuations and personal favourites, but these players are all in the same rough ballpark.
The team environment in Korea gave players perks but the fact remains that the scene was far more difficult back then even accounting for those perks. It takes an sOs or innovation to have such dominance in a cut throat scene.
Serral's feats are very weak compared to what sOs for example did. Serral is an insanely talented player but he has simply not run the gauntlet and his accolades pale in comparison.
I have no problem saying Serral's achievements are not a news story of note. I am not contesting that. I am not even contesting the fact that he was at one point strongest player in the world. I am contesting people saying this is the greatest we've seen, particularly in terms of success (my original post was in response to the guy saying serral transcends the definition of success)
Nobody would ever call a basketball player who has not proven himself in the NBA the GOAT or close to the GOAT. Sabonis is the closest thing we have to that scenario and nobody called him GOAT and when he came to the U.S. and played in the NBA his hype was brought back down to earth.
Serral has fewer slumps because he plays in a far weaker environment. He
But he doesnt confine himself in non Korean enviroment. He clashes with the best of them pretty often. And beats them almost always. And even in the few times he lost, he didnt look weak and it was in later steps of the tourney.
But you cant put aside Serrals dominance cus there are no more korean teams anymore. This very same argument nulifiea itself.
Koreans dont have the upside of a rich team scenario anymore. But so does Serral. When sOs was dominant, he had a team to practice and test and better analysis the game. So he had the same perks his competition. Same happens to Serral (his condition is even worse, since theres still Jin Air - which happens to concentrate the most dominants players of Korea). He lacks the same perks the the nowadays korean scene lacks: rich team scenario. And keeps beating them all for 2 years.
The argument doesn’t nullify itself at all.
Like I said before despite being part of a team having perks, those perks were outweighed by the level of difficulty of the Korea scene back then. sOs has better tournament success in a MUCH tougher environment than Serral.
Until serral immerses himself in the meat grinder that is Korea or wins like multiple Blizzcons/IEM caliber tournaments his single Blizzcon, his farming of the protected wcs circuit , and winning a handful of some of the more “fun” tournaments doesn’t put him on the same level of tournament success as guys like sOs dark and inno for example.
If you’re not going to participate in the gsl then you better have a hell of an impressive resume to make up for it. I’m guessing that’s why serral only ranked 18 in tl GOAT contest lol
Or two GSL vs the Worlds which have a damn solid field.
Last Blizzcon it wasn’t a Korean who put him out after all, he went 6-0 against two Koreans.
Why does Serral have to go to the GSL to prove himself given his basically having a winning head-to-head against all of the same players? I’d like him to personally as a fan of the game and the prestige of the tournament.
I don’t really buy that the level has dropped all that much at the Korean top end either. If it has it only takes one standard player to keep their top level and just clean up everything, which hasn’t happened.
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Im so tired of everyone judging balance around Serral. And of ppl saying Serral wouldnt win as much as other race.
Its not about the race. Just in the games he plays against other top players, you can clearly see he can just do more things at the same time, and do them better than any other players.
If he was terran, he would still find ways to outmultitask out harass opponents and macro like a beast. Hes just on more screens at the same time.
1000% this. Its kinda funny, that some people still dont see that. People would prolly still whine about the balance if he was playing random.
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: You terran players are like martyr who think any time a terran player does well ( Maru, byun, innovation, mvp, teaja ..etc) its because hes a god and is 1000 times better than others while playing with worst race.
Meanwhile, If the top player is Serral and is zerg, its because its the race.
Yup.
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: News flash, Serral has more raw skills than any other player ever in the history of the game. He doesnt rely on gimmicks or strong all-ins or imbalanced era to win, he relies on better macro, more screen per minute, and out multitasking his opponents by making less mistakes and provoking more mistakes.
People tend to forget about that too. How long was Serral dominant just by playing standard macro games ? Like a full year or so ? Can you imagine ? A full year of dominance practically without any all-ins or cheese ? Just pure macro play. He was just so ahead of everyone, that he didnt need the cheese or upredictability to win. Isnt that a sign of something ? Finally after other players started picking that up and try to take advantage of that (mainly Raynor) and take significant risks to get ahead, started Serral adapt to that and add some cheese/all-ins to his repertory. Even Koreans have admitted that he is the best for soon 1,5 years. But still some dont think he is impressive, lol.
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Im so tired of everyone judging balance around Serral. And of ppl saying Serral wouldnt win as much as other race.
Its not about the race. Just in the games he plays against other top players, you can clearly see he can just do more things at the same time, and do them better than any other players.
If he was terran, he would still find ways to outmultitask out harass opponents and macro like a beast. Hes just on more screens at the same time.
You terran players are like martyr who think any time a terran player does well ( Maru, byun, innovation, mvp, teaja ..etc) its because hes a god and is 1000 times better than others while playing with worst race.
Meanwhile, If the top player is Serral and is zerg, its because its the race.
News flash, Serral has more raw skills than any other player ever in the history of the game. He doesnt rely on gimmicks or strong all-ins or imbalanced era to win, he relies on better macro, more screen per minute, and out multitasking his opponents by making less mistakes and provoking more mistakes.
This terran circle jerk victim complex has to end. Terran is the strongest its ever been, foreign terrans just arent as good as zerg players, get over yourselves.
You could make zerg super underpowered and Serral would still win fairly often because hes just way better than his opponents, and with a pool of 30 players, most games are decided by skills and not balance.
Maybe it's because he's not the only Zerg having so much success lately and there are 4 Zergs at the moment which are almost unbeatable by other races (or at least there were on the old patch - Dark and Rogue haven't played since then) Are they all just better than the best T/P players? I think it's undeniable that Zerg has been very favored almost the entire year
On December 10 2019 14:56 Snakestyle11 wrote: Im so tired of everyone judging balance around Serral. And of ppl saying Serral wouldnt win as much as other race.
Its not about the race. Just in the games he plays against other top players, you can clearly see he can just do more things at the same time, and do them better than any other players.
If he was terran, he would still find ways to outmultitask out harass opponents and macro like a beast. Hes just on more screens at the same time.
You terran players are like martyr who think any time a terran player does well ( Maru, byun, innovation, mvp, teaja ..etc) its because hes a god and is 1000 times better than others while playing with worst race.
Meanwhile, If the top player is Serral and is zerg, its because its the race.
News flash, Serral has more raw skills than any other player ever in the history of the game. He doesnt rely on gimmicks or strong all-ins or imbalanced era to win, he relies on better macro, more screen per minute, and out multitasking his opponents by making less mistakes and provoking more mistakes.
This terran circle jerk victim complex has to end. Terran is the strongest its ever been, foreign terrans just arent as good as zerg players, get over yourselves.
You could make zerg super underpowered and Serral would still win fairly often because hes just way better than his opponents, and with a pool of 30 players, most games are decided by skills and not balance.
Maybe it's because he's not the only Zerg having so much success lately and there are 4 Zergs at the moment which are almost unbeatable by other races (or at least there were on the old patch - Dark and Rogue haven't played since then) Are they all just better than the best T/P players? I think it's undeniable that Zerg has been very favored almost the entire year
I'd say that the last patch was pretty favorable for Zerg, but before that, not really. And even if a zerg at the end won, the Ro8 of international tournaments and even wcs stops were pretty much balanced in numbers with a fair distribution of races. If Serral and Reynor are the 2 zerg out of 8 players to reach the Ro8 and than they costantly reach the finals or eliminate each other before, yeah, I'd say they were the best players in that tournament. If in GSL season 2 Dark and soO were the only 2 zergs in the Ro8, with Dark being the only one in Ro4 with 3 Protoss, and he won, yeah, I'd say he's been the better player there. It would be unreasonable to think that tournament winners should always vary in race otherwise there's a balance issue.
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
In other words. How favored race Zerg may or may have not been during year 2019, it doesn't matter in the light of Serral's statistics as they show that his preferable match up was ZvZ in which he also played proportionally more games against on average higher quality players.
If there was IMBA favoring Zerg we can only claim that Serral benefited from it indirectly by having more than his fair share of Zergs as his opponents. Such imbalance doesn't impact to his ZvZ match up sample anyway directly, particularly when considering he played large part his matches against the best Zergs of both worlds, achieving pretty insane stats:
104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg
Also, in comparison to year 2018,
Serral was 144–38 (79.12%) in games and 56–7 (88.89%) in matches vs Zerg Serral was 17–6 (73.91%) in games and 7–2 (77.78%) in matches vs Korean Zerg Serral was 127–32 (79.87%) in games and 49–5 (90.74%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg
and as we can see his overall level in that match up has been consistently good. 2018 was not considered advantageous for Zerg, balance-wise. Serral was dramatically over-representing whole Zerg race at least when it came to winning tournaments.
Its already very bad excuse/troll/joke to mix Serral and Zerg Imba (real or imaginary). Sample of Serral's efforts is already enough big versus Zerg alone that statistically its impossible put it only to luck, or not recognizing the Ultimate SC2 Talent as he appears.
Let's see how many years it takes from Serral to rise to the top10 in TL.net's The GOAT poll. :D
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
+ Few tournament wins and stuff.
A Good Year.
So...nerf Serral when? Seems like a very imbalanced race, this Serral. Probably should ban this man from using any popularly perceived OP unit...but that probably won't make much of a difference, as he'll just find another way to win, and another way to make his detractors cry.
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
+ Few tournament wins and stuff.
A Good Year.
So...nerf Serral when? Seems like a very imbalanced race, this Serral. Probably should ban this man from using any popularly perceived OP unit...but that probably won't make much of a difference, as he'll just find another way to win, and another way to make his detractors cry.
Sure. For saving the game from Serral, we need:
- More foreign zergs, at least of Reynor level quality. More Korean zergs upgraded with Euro-zerg modus operandi (someone can claim these upgrades were already in working with full effect in The Blizzcon) - More Stats. Simply more then better. Use cloning if nothing else helps - Korean Terran invasion to EU, NA, and other continents not Korea, Maru as Supreme Commander to educate foreign Terrans in their duties
On average very chill, cool, and level headed top level streaming Euro-Zergs (and Scarlett) make it IMBA easy to get more newcomers to the swarm in these parts of the world, and it seems unlikely that any rabid changes can happen without external aid for needs to get that balanced someway...
For example, by lifting the region lock. What ever necessary for preventing Serral's ascension to TL.Net's GOAT polls. :D
But, whatever will ever happen, there will always be a crying chorus out there, with high statistical certainty a Terran chorus.
Use 12-Gauge scatter gun to a Premier/Major tournament season of 200+ top level professional SC2 games season target assuming 88% hit percentage of pellets in matches, noting that previous hit percentage increase likelihood of skipping various qualifiers and getting some direct invitations...
How many time you need to shoot the gun that you get one full season without a single tournament win?
Not going to do the math, but if Serral's form of last few years are anyway indicative for a future... LMAO!
On December 11 2019 09:05 UnLarva wrote: Another angle.
Use 12-Gauge scatter gun to a Premier/Major tournament season of 200+ top level professional SC2 games season target assuming 88% hit percentage of pellets in matches, noting that previous hit percentage increase likelihood of skipping various qualifiers and getting some direct invitations...
How many time you need to shoot the gun that you get one full season without a single tournament win?
Not going to do the math, but if Serral's form of last few years are anyway indicative for a future... LMAO!
On December 11 2019 09:05 UnLarva wrote: Another angle.
Use 12-Gauge scatter gun to a Premier/Major tournament season of 200+ top level professional SC2 games season target assuming 88% hit percentage of pellets in matches, noting that previous hit percentage increase likelihood of skipping various qualifiers and getting some direct invitations...
How many time you need to shoot the gun that you get one full season without a single tournament win?
Not going to do the math, but if Serral's form of last few years are anyway indicative for a future... LMAO!
But it’s a weak era you biased Serral fan!
I know and I admit I'm biased, that's why I play now with these simple stats.
That is also why I just refer to ALL (and loathed) 3rd party betting sites and their offers during this year 2019 as they certainly know how to handle with statistics,
Serral's overall expected success rate was that high that there was no point what so ever to put anything for Serral in schemes Serral alone, not at least if you're "serious" gambler playing with big money, unless you did some long term bets at the start of the year.
And if you play with beans and small bets, even less.
Reynor proved to be a lot more lucrative. (Not going to demonstrate that with any links as it would be both bad conduct and against the code, we need only remember that betting companies do their business regardless, and for that they need to be aware of chances and statistics.)
I didn't put a single cent for Serral or anybody else, just demonstrating another angle to the topic.
On December 11 2019 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Maybe it's because he's not the only Zerg having so much success lately and there are 4 Zergs at the moment which are almost unbeatable by other races (or at least there were on the old patch - Dark and Rogue haven't played since then) Are they all just better than the best T/P players? I think it's undeniable that Zerg has been very favored almost the entire year
Yesterday Rogue lost vs Dear in a Olimoleague. No idea what Dark is up to
On December 11 2019 11:52 tskarzyn wrote: Serral is amazing, but can we admit the maps are bonkers for zerg?
New maps really should be smaller and a bit narrower
On December 11 2019 08:17 UnLarva wrote: For example, by lifting the region lock. What ever necessary for preventing Serral's ascension to TL.Net's GOAT polls. :D
I think even deacon and Charoisaur have meanwhile admitted that this Serral kid is kinda decent at Starcraft
If Serral has managed to cause a change in minds of Deacon and Chairosaur, that's f*ing awesome great, as it would be likely the hardest-to-achieve-and-unlock accomplishment of year 2019 for Serral, all things considered.
However, My rants (above) aimed onto much lower fields, I primarily attacked against a random guy saying and repeating: "Patch Zerg Serral", without any sarcasm added.
Maybe those comments were strawman arguments and aimed to a void, but the point was made and it is valid. That Patch-zerg stance cannot hold in any perceivable scenarios already happened, and by definition of Patch-[insert race here] never there after with Serral. Still, relatively speaking Serral was THE Patch of the Game, and his overall competitive stats back that up. In 2019 he just continue patching things up.
Things like Serral simply do not happen in any competitive sport. Still they happened.
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
+ Few tournament wins and stuff.
A Good Year.
Wow, that Stats are looking super impressive. Who were the foreigners taking matches of Serral? I can recall Reynor (WCS Winter, WCS Summer, BlizzCon), Heromarine (WCS Winter), Goblin (NW19) but there s one Protoss missing. Edit: The Protoss I missed was Neeb at WESG. And Reynor beat Serral twice at WCS Winter
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
+ Few tournament wins and stuff.
A Good Year.
Wow, that Stats are looking super impressive. Who were the foreigners taking matches of Serral? I can recall Reynor (WCS Winter, WCS Summer, BlizzCon), Heromarine (WCS Winter), Goblin (NW19) but there s one Protoss missing. Edit: The Protoss I missed was Neeb at WESG. And Reynor beat Serral twice at WCS Winter
Goblin can frame that GG to his wall. Its the outlier happening in this all.hugging outlierism with Serral.
I trust Aligulac's mathematical and statistical soundness, usually checking happenings from there first. Hardcore default settings for to improve a rating has not hindered Serral to a slightest list after list after list after list...
It has been far above and beyond what can be reasonably expected from anybody. Forget absolute numbers, they mean little because of rating inflation, but look at to gaps between Serral and 2nd and 5th, or 10th of consecutive listings. It is insane.
Serral's rabid rise in the Aligulac's HOF is amazing, considering he surpassed the 10000 points milestone only about a year ago.
However I try look to his statistics, I always find only
A) Statistical outlier B) Consistency C) Very small deviation between peak and low performances
Something that cannot "normally" mutually co-exist over any enough long time period and enough big sample.
And here he still is, and still going on, and flying like Neo of Matrix.
Serral is 264–82 (76.30%) in games and 110–14 (88.71%) in matches. - Serral is 104–34 (75.36%) in games and 41–5 (89.13%) in matches vs Zerg - Serral is 83–21 (79.81%) in games and 40–5 (88.89%) in matches vs Protoss - Serral is 77–27 (74.04%) in games and 29–4 (87.88%) in matches vs Terran
Serral is 65–29 (69.15%) in games and 23–7 (76.67%) in matches vs Koreans - Serral is 21–6 (77.78%) in games and 8–1 (88.89%) in matches vs Korean Zerg (soO, Dark, Rogue, Ragnarok, Solar) - Serral is 21–8 (72.41%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches vs Korean Protoss (Stats, Zest, Trap, Classic) - Serral is 23–15 (60.53%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches vs Korean Terran (INnoVation, TY, GuMiho)
Serral is 199–53 (78.97%) in games and 87–7 (92.55%) in matches vs Foreigners - Serral is 83–28 (74.77%) in games and 33–4 (89.19%) in matches vs Foreigner Zerg - Serral is 62–13 (82.67%) in games and 32–2 (94.12%) in matches vs Foreigner Protoss - Serral is 54–12 (81.82%) in games and 22–1 (95.65%) in matches vs Foreigner Terran
Statistics vs Zerg are particularly interesting as we can just ignore all real or imagined imbalance issues from considerations, and Reynor being the main culprit for so "ridiculously low" winning percentages vs Euro-Zergs!
+ Few tournament wins and stuff.
A Good Year.
Wow, that Stats are looking super impressive. Who were the foreigners taking matches of Serral? I can recall Reynor (WCS Winter, WCS Summer, BlizzCon), Heromarine (WCS Winter), Goblin (NW19) but there s one Protoss missing. Edit: The Protoss I missed was Neeb at WESG. And Reynor beat Serral twice at WCS Winter
Goblin can frame that GG to his wall. Its the outlier happening in this all.hugging outlierism with Serral.
I trust Aligulac's mathematical and statistical soundness, usually checking happenings from there first. Hardcore default settings for to improve a rating has not hindered Serral to a slightest list after list after list after list...
It has been far above and beyond what can be reasonably expected from anybody. Forget absolute numbers, they mean little because of rating inflation, but look at to gaps between Serral and 2nd and 5th, or 10th of consecutive listings. It is insane.
Serral's rabid rise in the Aligulac's HOF is amazing, considering he surpassed the 10000 points milestone only about a year ago.
However I try look to his statistics, I always find only
A) Statistical outlier B) Consistency C) Very small deviation between peak and low performances
Something that cannot "normally" mutually co-exist over any enough long time period and enough big sample.
And here he still is, and still going on, and flying like Neo of Matrix.
I wouldn t call Goblins game a statistical outlier, it was a great Canonrush into a wired mass phoenix play, that was unorthodox enough, that even Serral couldn t junge how to defend it. He played it super save, had spotter links all over the map, but just not enough queens to defend in the end. If that would have been anything else than a Bo1 no one would even remember it now, thoug
On December 11 2019 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: Maybe it's because he's not the only Zerg having so much success lately and there are 4 Zergs at the moment which are almost unbeatable by other races (or at least there were on the old patch - Dark and Rogue haven't played since then) Are they all just better than the best T/P players? I think it's undeniable that Zerg has been very favored almost the entire year
Yesterday Rogue lost vs Dear in a Olimoleague. No idea what Dark is up to
On December 11 2019 08:17 UnLarva wrote: For example, by lifting the region lock. What ever necessary for preventing Serral's ascension to TL.Net's GOAT polls. :D
I think even deacon and Charoisaur have meanwhile admitted that this Serral kid is kinda decent at Starcraft
Don't speak for me.
On December 12 2019 05:14 UnLarva wrote: @ Harris1st
If Serral has managed to cause a change in minds of Deacon and Chairosaur, that's f*ing awesome great, as it would be likely the hardest-to-achieve-and-unlock accomplishment of year 2019 for Serral, all things considered.
However, My rants (above) aimed onto much lower fields, I primarily attacked against a random guy saying and repeating: "Patch Zerg Serral", without any sarcasm added.
Maybe those comments were strawman arguments and aimed to a void, but the point was made and it is valid. That Patch-zerg stance cannot hold in any perceivable scenarios already happened, and by definition of Patch-[insert race here] never there after with Serral. Still, relatively speaking Serral was THE Patch of the Game, and his overall competitive stats back that up. In 2019 he just continue patching things up.
Things like Serral simply do not happen in any competitive sport. Still they happened.
Don't speak for me and read what i wrote in the history of my posts.
EPT![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/eb/NW2019_Banner.jpg)
English Stream | 
French Stream | 
Portuguese Stream | 
Chinese Taipei Stream | 
Spanish Stream | 
German Stream | 
Poland Stream |
Russian Stream | 
Chinese Stream | 
Korean Stream![[image loading]](http://flags.fmcdn.net/data/flags/h80/it.png)
Reynor 
Ryosis![[image loading]](http://flags.fmcdn.net/data/flags/h80/fi.png)
![[image loading]](http://flags.fmcdn.net/data/flags/h80/kr.png)
INnoVation 
Stats![[image loading]](http://flags.fmcdn.net/data/flags/h80/fr.png)
Italy 3-4 
Finland
haha but good luck.
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Drogo was playing so well 
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