EPT
GG FINLAND! GG SUOMI! GG SERRAL! GG ZHUGELIANG! GG THEMUSZERO! ![[image loading]](https://gifs.nwps.fi/kiekko/porot2ipapi.gif)
[Nationwars 2019] Semi Finals + Grand Final - Page 24
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Azhrak
Finland1190 Posts
GG FINLAND! GG SUOMI! GG SERRAL! GG ZHUGELIANG! GG THEMUSZERO! | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 09 2019 07:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: You might be able to fix TvZ with maps, but PvZ can't be fixed that way imo. You'd need to give all the maps in-base naturals, or have large swaths of uncreepable terrain to give Protoss a chance. And even then zerg has Nydus. Besides all the maps for next map pool were made six months ago. I think you're right, something else needs to happen with PvZ. But overall I just don't get what they have done with Zerg the last year or so. Once creep really gets spread out it's extremely difficult for the opponent to contest. And then obviously becomes a massive advantage for the Zerg. This advantage used to be a matter of back and forth with the opponent, now it's basically just a part of Zerg macro. Combine that with the other big mobility advantage that Zerg have gotten with the nydus. Wasn't the point that zerg had sick mobility but was somewhat confined to their base and their creep? Now they can just teleport. These factors are what makes the ling/bane runbys even more difficult to deal with, almost impossibly so. And on top of that the race has the best lategame with the best and extremely versatile casters. Which they have a much easier time reaching because of giant maps and a great defensive unit in the queen. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
For context, a 200 points gap is as large as the gap between #2 (currently Dark 3049) and #8 (currently TY at 2855). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 09 2019 07:59 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral went 17-2 (89%) for the tournament. Against Reynor and the Koreans, he only dropped 1 map. The other was against goblin, which I think can be discounted. So, really, it was 17-1 (94%). His aligulac rating has broken the 3200 milestone. Since September, Serral has maintained a gap at least 150 points wide between himself and the #2, and the gap is currently >200 (rating not yet updated). You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote: You mean 24-2? Serral was 17-1 before today and goblin's victory was legit. Best performance ever at Nation Wars, he overtook Marinelord's insane 21-2. Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:04 tigon_ridge wrote: Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points. I don't agree at all. If you play a bo1 format, every map should count; also, 24-2 is better than 17-2  | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:04 tigon_ridge wrote: Didn't say that goblin's map win wasn't legit. Just saying that we shouldn't weigh in obvious outlier data points. Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Outlier data points? Every player has a non-zero chance of beating any other--you can't simply discount low probability events from your statistics simply because you don't like them. Fair enough. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8300 Posts
On December 09 2019 07:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Not completely sure if that's true in the current meta. Last map pool for example zerg was favoured to some extent on every single map in PvZ. Maybe an incredibly droppable map would be good for Protoss, but then you run into problems in other match-ups. I think one good change would be the removal of doodads where zerg players hide overlords. On a lot of maps like Simulacrum and World of Sleepers they seem to be intentionally placed in such a manner so that zerg can scout protoss gas timings on their natural with barely any effort or risk. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:18 royalroadweed wrote: I think one good change would be the removal of doodads where zerg players hide overlords. On a lot of maps like Simulacrum and World of Sleepers they seem to be intentionally placed in such a manner so that zerg can scout protoss gas timings on their natural with barely any effort or risk. Well that's in Blizzard's hands right now. The maps have been made a long time ago: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/549393-tlnet-map-contest-13-finalists, and they by and large have overlord pods (though ofc there's some variation--on Simulacrum as you say the overlord pod is right above the gases whereas on Nightshade for example the pod is some ways away from the gases). Blizz can of course make any change they want including removing overlord pods. Making Protoss 2-base all-ins slightly harder to scout won't fix PvZ of course, but maybe it would be a step in the right direction. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:22 Xain0n wrote: Protoss will definitely need help by the way since not only it is the weakest race at the moment but half of the top korean Protoss is retiring soon(or already have like Classic and herO). I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently (edit: there's one barcode terran). It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:32 tigon_ridge wrote: I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players. Ladder rankings only matter so much when Protoss gets decimated in events like WESG. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:32 tigon_ridge wrote: I'm looking at the Korean ladder rankings, and there's a ton more protoss than terran or zerg, and not a single terran is in the top 13 currently. It's unreasonable to judge race strength on game results with Serral, or any of the other top 3 players. If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead? | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8300 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:38 Xain0n wrote: If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead? Aligulac would disprove your point though. Its does paint a grim picture about protoss's chances in PvZ. However, their current balance stats places terran as the worst by far. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:42 royalroadweed wrote: Aligulac would disprove your point though. Its does paint a grim picture about protoss's chances in PvZ. However, their current balance stats places terran as the worst by far. That's not my point, it's Tigon's. Aligulac's current balance stats is four days old. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On December 09 2019 08:38 Xain0n wrote: If I had to judge looking at Serral's results I would have said Protoss is op since the two maps he lost were against Protoss; is korean ladder a reliable index? What about Aligulac, instead? Someone made a strong argument that Aligulac somewhat underrates protoss true rating, due to the way that the overall rating is algorithmically determined and pvp's volatility. Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in between; protoss is indeed underrated by aligulac, but also I just think the talent pool for zerg at the highest level is just much bigger than terran, and terran's slightly bigger than protoss. I think it has little to do with balance, at least for the current patch. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
People have been saying for the longest time that zerg is the easiest race to learn, but it seems even during the supposedly zerg-favored meta (before this current patch) this AI strongly disagrees. But computer and humans think and act differently, so maybe's that's a counterargument. | ||
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Dave4
494 Posts
On December 08 2019 19:29 Dave4 wrote: Bias  haha but good luck.I predict: Italy 2-4 Finland France 1-4 South Korea Finland 5-2 South Korea I was pretty close! | ||
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Dave4
494 Posts
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Italy 3-4 
France 4-2 
South Korea
