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Even as a terran Fan my hopes were on Classic to win and avoid another zvz finals. Classic played so well but you know...zerg is impossible in this patch.
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On November 02 2019 13:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:14 Lexender wrote:On November 02 2019 13:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 FataLe wrote:On November 02 2019 13:04 Xain0n wrote:
I just finished reading the whole LR thread, had to go out for a gaming night after Serral won against soO.
You guys should not blame balance team, you should blame yourselves since you were screaming "Protoss op" when they really weren't; Blizzard's fault was listening to you.
I had never seen Serral threw that hard, it was kind of amazing; you guys really didn't understand anything of me if you think I'd in shambles since Reynor, who I love almost as much, was the one beating Serral this time; also, ZvZ must be a bad matchup, right? That series was so exciting.
I'm happy Classic beat Rogue and I'm relieved that Maru didn't advance, not because I hate him but because there are people out there who venerates him like a God, that's so bad.
If Dark wins, Reynor should have a nice shot at BlizzCon's title! DAJE RICCARDO! Were they listening before Blizzcon? Keep your logic consistent. Everyone has been moaning since even before Rogue and Dark made public statements. My logic IS consistent. Blizzard doesn't make extra patches to please the community, but has listened to its whining even more than it was reasonable; have you watched the proposed changes for next patch? Not to mention Infestors were nerfed, it's just that Protoss were overnerfed. Except that this is not a 2 race game, terran has actually been performing worse than toss so it obviously isn't just about nerfing protoss. They were buffed already(EMP, anyone? TvP looks like an actual matchup now to everyone but the most diehard Terran fans) and they will receive more buffs in the future.
Terran gets as gutted by zerg as toss, so its obviously not only about PvZ. And patches wont matter as long as the balance team has such a hard on for gigantic maps.
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On November 02 2019 13:20 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:17 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:14 Lexender wrote:On November 02 2019 13:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 FataLe wrote:On November 02 2019 13:04 Xain0n wrote:
I just finished reading the whole LR thread, had to go out for a gaming night after Serral won against soO.
You guys should not blame balance team, you should blame yourselves since you were screaming "Protoss op" when they really weren't; Blizzard's fault was listening to you.
I had never seen Serral threw that hard, it was kind of amazing; you guys really didn't understand anything of me if you think I'd in shambles since Reynor, who I love almost as much, was the one beating Serral this time; also, ZvZ must be a bad matchup, right? That series was so exciting.
I'm happy Classic beat Rogue and I'm relieved that Maru didn't advance, not because I hate him but because there are people out there who venerates him like a God, that's so bad.
If Dark wins, Reynor should have a nice shot at BlizzCon's title! DAJE RICCARDO! Were they listening before Blizzcon? Keep your logic consistent. Everyone has been moaning since even before Rogue and Dark made public statements. My logic IS consistent. Blizzard doesn't make extra patches to please the community, but has listened to its whining even more than it was reasonable; have you watched the proposed changes for next patch? Not to mention Infestors were nerfed, it's just that Protoss were overnerfed. Except that this is not a 2 race game, terran has actually been performing worse than toss so it obviously isn't just about nerfing protoss. They were buffed already(EMP, anyone? TvP looks like an actual matchup now to everyone but the most diehard Terran fans) and they will receive more buffs in the future. Terran gets as gutted by zerg as toss, so its obviously not only about PvZ. And patches wont matter as long as the balance team has such a hard on for gigantic maps.
It's more of the opposite imo. Maps don't matter when Nydus is around.
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I think Reynor should be favored over Dark in a bo7.
I wouldn't even mind Dark winning that much, I was displeased when Byun abused reapers against him, but RICCARDO HAS TO WIN! If he beats Serral, he should be able to defeat Dark, ideally.
Fighting for 120k is an extra boost, it's Reynor's first time so he it might have an impact, even if Dark sometimes chokes.
GO REYNOR GO!
Edit: Serral lost but he is still the best; no champion can win every single time, this will actually make him hungrier and give him extra motivation.
It was still one hell of a run, thanks for the games, Joona!
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On November 02 2019 13:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:20 Lexender wrote:On November 02 2019 13:17 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:14 Lexender wrote:On November 02 2019 13:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 FataLe wrote:On November 02 2019 13:04 Xain0n wrote:
I just finished reading the whole LR thread, had to go out for a gaming night after Serral won against soO.
You guys should not blame balance team, you should blame yourselves since you were screaming "Protoss op" when they really weren't; Blizzard's fault was listening to you.
I had never seen Serral threw that hard, it was kind of amazing; you guys really didn't understand anything of me if you think I'd in shambles since Reynor, who I love almost as much, was the one beating Serral this time; also, ZvZ must be a bad matchup, right? That series was so exciting.
I'm happy Classic beat Rogue and I'm relieved that Maru didn't advance, not because I hate him but because there are people out there who venerates him like a God, that's so bad.
If Dark wins, Reynor should have a nice shot at BlizzCon's title! DAJE RICCARDO! Were they listening before Blizzcon? Keep your logic consistent. Everyone has been moaning since even before Rogue and Dark made public statements. My logic IS consistent. Blizzard doesn't make extra patches to please the community, but has listened to its whining even more than it was reasonable; have you watched the proposed changes for next patch? Not to mention Infestors were nerfed, it's just that Protoss were overnerfed. Except that this is not a 2 race game, terran has actually been performing worse than toss so it obviously isn't just about nerfing protoss. They were buffed already(EMP, anyone? TvP looks like an actual matchup now to everyone but the most diehard Terran fans) and they will receive more buffs in the future. Terran gets as gutted by zerg as toss, so its obviously not only about PvZ. And patches wont matter as long as the balance team has such a hard on for gigantic maps. It's more of the opposite imo. Maps don't matter when Nydus is around.
Maybe not in ZvP but maps matter a ton for TvZ, lots of the maps lack in chokes and push locations, and have open bases that are hard for terran to secure.
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On November 02 2019 13:18 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:05 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:01 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:00 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 12:57 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 12:56 tigon_ridge wrote:
FTR, Serral dropped out with the best win % of the tournament (79%), and will likely keep that #1 place regardless of who wins the tournament. Thank you, single elimination. You did it again. it can happen in double elim too. Win everything until winners final, drop down, lose. probably still highest winrate :x There are many other formats, all superior to SE and DE. to determine what exactly? To determine who is the best all-rounder. In SE, you can get (un)lucky in too many ways. Winning tournaments is not about determining who is best allrounded, but wins the tournament in that given format. For HSC for example its 8 man round robin into double elimination bracket. You will find flaws in ANY given system and you mentioned. Also a tournament will never determine THE BEST player, its not possible with a system thats giving you a reasonable timed schedule. You cannot have each player face all other players in a big enough sample size for that. Groups are not based on skill but placements and placements in a WCS system also do not reflect a 100% on who is best or not. Saying the best player didn't win the tournament the reason being his winrate in maps is a very flawed way of seeing who is best. How do you feel about CSGO and maps ending 16-4 / 14 -16 and 14 - 16. More rounds won by the losing team. Also if you start to value individual maps over series wins (as you say 3-0 > 3-2 in a victory) you can start looking into how dominant a map was. Serrals 3-0 vs soO is a very clear victory on paper, not so much in the games. I feel your statement while not offensive is a very bad way at looking at "the best player"
No tournament format is perfect, that we can agree on. However, there is such thing as a format that is a good compromise that takes into consideration the scheduling. Your RR into DE format, is at least much better than what most organizers choose, and I credit you immensely for that. It's just upsetting to see a bad format be the go-to because of such terrible time constraint. I believe tournament organizers can do better, or at least match what you've done for the HSC. (Although, I think the +1 map compensation for the grand final is really not good enough compensation).
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On November 02 2019 13:24 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 02 2019 13:20 Lexender wrote:On November 02 2019 13:17 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:14 Lexender wrote:On November 02 2019 13:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 FataLe wrote:On November 02 2019 13:04 Xain0n wrote:
I just finished reading the whole LR thread, had to go out for a gaming night after Serral won against soO.
You guys should not blame balance team, you should blame yourselves since you were screaming "Protoss op" when they really weren't; Blizzard's fault was listening to you.
I had never seen Serral threw that hard, it was kind of amazing; you guys really didn't understand anything of me if you think I'd in shambles since Reynor, who I love almost as much, was the one beating Serral this time; also, ZvZ must be a bad matchup, right? That series was so exciting.
I'm happy Classic beat Rogue and I'm relieved that Maru didn't advance, not because I hate him but because there are people out there who venerates him like a God, that's so bad.
If Dark wins, Reynor should have a nice shot at BlizzCon's title! DAJE RICCARDO! Were they listening before Blizzcon? Keep your logic consistent. Everyone has been moaning since even before Rogue and Dark made public statements. My logic IS consistent. Blizzard doesn't make extra patches to please the community, but has listened to its whining even more than it was reasonable; have you watched the proposed changes for next patch? Not to mention Infestors were nerfed, it's just that Protoss were overnerfed. Except that this is not a 2 race game, terran has actually been performing worse than toss so it obviously isn't just about nerfing protoss. They were buffed already(EMP, anyone? TvP looks like an actual matchup now to everyone but the most diehard Terran fans) and they will receive more buffs in the future. Terran gets as gutted by zerg as toss, so its obviously not only about PvZ. And patches wont matter as long as the balance team has such a hard on for gigantic maps. It's more of the opposite imo. Maps don't matter when Nydus is around. Maybe not in ZvP but maps matter a ton for TvZ, lots of the maps lack in chokes and push locations, and have open bases that are hard for terran to secure.
That's a good point. Though what maps are good for terran isn't always obvious from the onset. There was quite a bit of complaining from terran about Triton and Disco which both turned out not to be that bad for terran.
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In terms of quality of games, one of the worst blizzcons, if ever.
It's sad to see the state of the game devolved to this.
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I hope Reynor takes this quickly. Also Byun is 10 times the player Dark is, Dark is always Maru/Stats/Inno's bitch and even when Zerg is unbeatable Rogue still patchzergs better than him.
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Germany1201 Posts
On November 02 2019 13:25 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:18 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:01 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:00 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 12:57 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 12:56 tigon_ridge wrote:
FTR, Serral dropped out with the best win % of the tournament (79%), and will likely keep that #1 place regardless of who wins the tournament. Thank you, single elimination. You did it again. it can happen in double elim too. Win everything until winners final, drop down, lose. probably still highest winrate :x There are many other formats, all superior to SE and DE. to determine what exactly? To determine who is the best all-rounder. In SE, you can get (un)lucky in too many ways. Winning tournaments is not about determining who is best allrounded, but wins the tournament in that given format. For HSC for example its 8 man round robin into double elimination bracket. You will find flaws in ANY given system and you mentioned. Also a tournament will never determine THE BEST player, its not possible with a system thats giving you a reasonable timed schedule. You cannot have each player face all other players in a big enough sample size for that. Groups are not based on skill but placements and placements in a WCS system also do not reflect a 100% on who is best or not. Saying the best player didn't win the tournament the reason being his winrate in maps is a very flawed way of seeing who is best. How do you feel about CSGO and maps ending 16-4 / 14 -16 and 14 - 16. More rounds won by the losing team. Also if you start to value individual maps over series wins (as you say 3-0 > 3-2 in a victory) you can start looking into how dominant a map was. Serrals 3-0 vs soO is a very clear victory on paper, not so much in the games. I feel your statement while not offensive is a very bad way at looking at "the best player" No tournament format is perfect, that we can agree on. However, there is such thing as a format that is a good compromise that takes into consideration the scheduling. Your RR into DE format, is at least much better than what most organizers choose, and I credit you immensely for that. It's just upsetting to see a bad format be the go-to because of such terrible time constraint. I believe tournament organizers can do better, or at least match what you've done for the HSC. (Although, I think the +1 map compensation for the grand final is really not good enough compensation).
We actually do Best of 2 this HSC - also I believe 1 map compensation is fine. We have a lot of people actually argue for NO ADVANTAGE at all which I am strongly against. The most fair option would be two best of 5 but I believe that simply goes too long. And two maps is too much of an advantage.
You can do one map advantage and decide on which the win (virutal win) was. But that is a BIG advantage in Sc2
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I just want to see Reynor win because I want to see his reaction to winning it all. He just seems so happy to play this game.
Viewer numbers though :/
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Super excited for Reynor!
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On November 02 2019 13:30 Morbidius wrote:
I hope Reynor takes this quickly. Also Byun is 10 times the player Dark is, Dark is always Maru/Stats/Inno's bitch and even when Zerg is unbeatable Rogue still patchzergs better than him.
hmmm Dark has a winning record against both Maru and Inno though and Stats and him are like 50 50
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On November 02 2019 13:30 ilikeredheads wrote:
In terms of quality of games, one of the worst blizzcons, if ever.
It's sad to see the state of the game devolved to this.
It's okay not to like PvZ right now but dude, this blizzcon has had some of the sickest series. Previous blizzcons have been way lamer lol
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On November 02 2019 13:30 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:25 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:18 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:01 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:00 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 12:57 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 12:56 tigon_ridge wrote:
FTR, Serral dropped out with the best win % of the tournament (79%), and will likely keep that #1 place regardless of who wins the tournament. Thank you, single elimination. You did it again. it can happen in double elim too. Win everything until winners final, drop down, lose. probably still highest winrate :x There are many other formats, all superior to SE and DE. to determine what exactly? To determine who is the best all-rounder. In SE, you can get (un)lucky in too many ways. Winning tournaments is not about determining who is best allrounded, but wins the tournament in that given format. For HSC for example its 8 man round robin into double elimination bracket. You will find flaws in ANY given system and you mentioned. Also a tournament will never determine THE BEST player, its not possible with a system thats giving you a reasonable timed schedule. You cannot have each player face all other players in a big enough sample size for that. Groups are not based on skill but placements and placements in a WCS system also do not reflect a 100% on who is best or not. Saying the best player didn't win the tournament the reason being his winrate in maps is a very flawed way of seeing who is best. How do you feel about CSGO and maps ending 16-4 / 14 -16 and 14 - 16. More rounds won by the losing team. Also if you start to value individual maps over series wins (as you say 3-0 > 3-2 in a victory) you can start looking into how dominant a map was. Serrals 3-0 vs soO is a very clear victory on paper, not so much in the games. I feel your statement while not offensive is a very bad way at looking at "the best player" No tournament format is perfect, that we can agree on. However, there is such thing as a format that is a good compromise that takes into consideration the scheduling. Your RR into DE format, is at least much better than what most organizers choose, and I credit you immensely for that. It's just upsetting to see a bad format be the go-to because of such terrible time constraint. I believe tournament organizers can do better, or at least match what you've done for the HSC. (Although, I think the +1 map compensation for the grand final is really not good enough compensation). We actually do Best of 2 this HSC - also I believe 1 map compensation is fine. We have a lot of people actually argue for NO ADVANTAGE at all which I am strongly against. The most fair option would be two best of 5 but I believe that simply goes too long. And two maps is too much of an advantage. You can do one map advantage and decide on which the win (virutal win) was. But that is a BIG advantage in Sc2
Mathematically a 2 map advantage in a bo9 is actually pretty close to fair. But that might still be too long.
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Germany1201 Posts
On November 02 2019 13:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:30 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:25 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:18 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:01 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:00 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 12:57 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 12:56 tigon_ridge wrote:
FTR, Serral dropped out with the best win % of the tournament (79%), and will likely keep that #1 place regardless of who wins the tournament. Thank you, single elimination. You did it again. it can happen in double elim too. Win everything until winners final, drop down, lose. probably still highest winrate :x There are many other formats, all superior to SE and DE. to determine what exactly? To determine who is the best all-rounder. In SE, you can get (un)lucky in too many ways. Winning tournaments is not about determining who is best allrounded, but wins the tournament in that given format. For HSC for example its 8 man round robin into double elimination bracket. You will find flaws in ANY given system and you mentioned. Also a tournament will never determine THE BEST player, its not possible with a system thats giving you a reasonable timed schedule. You cannot have each player face all other players in a big enough sample size for that. Groups are not based on skill but placements and placements in a WCS system also do not reflect a 100% on who is best or not. Saying the best player didn't win the tournament the reason being his winrate in maps is a very flawed way of seeing who is best. How do you feel about CSGO and maps ending 16-4 / 14 -16 and 14 - 16. More rounds won by the losing team. Also if you start to value individual maps over series wins (as you say 3-0 > 3-2 in a victory) you can start looking into how dominant a map was. Serrals 3-0 vs soO is a very clear victory on paper, not so much in the games. I feel your statement while not offensive is a very bad way at looking at "the best player" No tournament format is perfect, that we can agree on. However, there is such thing as a format that is a good compromise that takes into consideration the scheduling. Your RR into DE format, is at least much better than what most organizers choose, and I credit you immensely for that. It's just upsetting to see a bad format be the go-to because of such terrible time constraint. I believe tournament organizers can do better, or at least match what you've done for the HSC. (Although, I think the +1 map compensation for the grand final is really not good enough compensation). We actually do Best of 2 this HSC - also I believe 1 map compensation is fine. We have a lot of people actually argue for NO ADVANTAGE at all which I am strongly against. The most fair option would be two best of 5 but I believe that simply goes too long. And two maps is too much of an advantage. You can do one map advantage and decide on which the win (virutal win) was. But that is a BIG advantage in Sc2 Mathematically a 2 map advantage in a bo9 is actually pretty close to fair. But that might still be too long.
I am all for bigger map pools but I would hate Bo9 on a 7 map pool
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On November 02 2019 13:31 Toua wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:30 Morbidius wrote:
I hope Reynor takes this quickly. Also Byun is 10 times the player Dark is, Dark is always Maru/Stats/Inno's bitch and even when Zerg is unbeatable Rogue still patchzergs better than him. hmmm Dark has a winning record against both Maru and Inno though and Stats and him are like 50 50
He loses when it matters most.
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This is the most meh and totally unhype Blizzcon ever for me.
Just sad. I don't know why I am still watching this, out of habit?
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On November 02 2019 13:31 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:30 ilikeredheads wrote:
In terms of quality of games, one of the worst blizzcons, if ever.
It's sad to see the state of the game devolved to this. It's okay not to like PvZ right now but dude, this blizzcon has had some of the sickest series. Previous blizzcons have been way lamer lol
I agree. Serral-soO was a close 3-0, Trap-Reynor was almost a reverse sweep, and the Serral-Reynor was spectacular.
Oh and Classic taking down Zerg abuser Rogue :p
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On November 02 2019 13:32 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 13:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 02 2019 13:30 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:25 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:18 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:05 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 13:01 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 13:00 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 02 2019 12:57 TaKeTV wrote:On November 02 2019 12:56 tigon_ridge wrote:
FTR, Serral dropped out with the best win % of the tournament (79%), and will likely keep that #1 place regardless of who wins the tournament. Thank you, single elimination. You did it again. it can happen in double elim too. Win everything until winners final, drop down, lose. probably still highest winrate :x There are many other formats, all superior to SE and DE. to determine what exactly? To determine who is the best all-rounder. In SE, you can get (un)lucky in too many ways. Winning tournaments is not about determining who is best allrounded, but wins the tournament in that given format. For HSC for example its 8 man round robin into double elimination bracket. You will find flaws in ANY given system and you mentioned. Also a tournament will never determine THE BEST player, its not possible with a system thats giving you a reasonable timed schedule. You cannot have each player face all other players in a big enough sample size for that. Groups are not based on skill but placements and placements in a WCS system also do not reflect a 100% on who is best or not. Saying the best player didn't win the tournament the reason being his winrate in maps is a very flawed way of seeing who is best. How do you feel about CSGO and maps ending 16-4 / 14 -16 and 14 - 16. More rounds won by the losing team. Also if you start to value individual maps over series wins (as you say 3-0 > 3-2 in a victory) you can start looking into how dominant a map was. Serrals 3-0 vs soO is a very clear victory on paper, not so much in the games. I feel your statement while not offensive is a very bad way at looking at "the best player" No tournament format is perfect, that we can agree on. However, there is such thing as a format that is a good compromise that takes into consideration the scheduling. Your RR into DE format, is at least much better than what most organizers choose, and I credit you immensely for that. It's just upsetting to see a bad format be the go-to because of such terrible time constraint. I believe tournament organizers can do better, or at least match what you've done for the HSC. (Although, I think the +1 map compensation for the grand final is really not good enough compensation). We actually do Best of 2 this HSC - also I believe 1 map compensation is fine. We have a lot of people actually argue for NO ADVANTAGE at all which I am strongly against. The most fair option would be two best of 5 but I believe that simply goes too long. And two maps is too much of an advantage. You can do one map advantage and decide on which the win (virutal win) was. But that is a BIG advantage in Sc2 Mathematically a 2 map advantage in a bo9 is actually pretty close to fair. But that might still be too long. I am all for bigger map pools but I would hate Bo9 on a 7 map pool
If you give a 2 map advantage you only have to play 7 games anyhow.
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EPT
