EPTPlay to win.
[GSL 2019] Season 2 - Quarterfinals Day 1 - Page 19
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
Play to win. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On June 07 2019 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote: 2/2 from Korea at WESG were Terran, WCS distribution isn’t that bad. Terran winning GSL isn’t that bad either. Protoss can lose Zest, sOs, Dear and Stats before the playoff bracket and still be doing pretty well for themselves, Terran does not have a similar luxury Without most of their current big 4 firing on all cylinders in the same season, or players below that stepping up, or a mix of the two I don’t see Terrans having much luck on the distribution side of things. You do realize the Korean qualifier for WESG was November 2018, do you? And we're back to "Mvp was winning during BL/infestor, everything is fine" counter argument? AGAIN? Edit> and yes, Korean qualifier Nov2018, Tournament March2019. Think about it. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
Then the 2 stargate pheonix does insane damage obviously, renders ravagers useless and can kill them for free, so soO cant really invest in more ravagers, making more spores destroys his already low drone count, he loses ovies and more drones to pheonixes, hes forced to remake drones and tech to something that will allow him to breathe against phoenixes. At this point, he has almost no vision on the map, 2 stargate pheonixes make the zerg completely blind. soO then assumes classic will probably take a third base and tech to colossus to counter the hydras mass pheonixes force, but you cant really scout to be sure as the zerg at that point with all those pheonixes, he takes a gamble and goes corruptors to counter pheonixes/colossus; he needs something to come back any ways, hes behind from all these misreads. Nah, protoss goes sentry immortal all-in anyways, with tons of built up sentry energy, tons of pheonixes to completely negate ravagers and i mean.. what are corruptors gonna do against sentry/immortal? I truly believe after the 2 stargate pheonixes, Classic couldve done any sort of 2 base push and won, or went into a third base and won any ways, he was too far ahead. All of this is because how powerful warp-prism/immortal centric 2 base all-ins are against zerg. You HAVE to cut drones early and mass ravagers ( or ling bane, depending on version, or rush hydras to defend another version..). If you just take a small risk and drone a bit too hard in the chance that they just take a late third and macro, you lose to an all-in. Every Zerg in Korea is playing from behind in ZvP because they have to blind counter well executed immortal/warp prism all-ins. I really dont know how soO was supposed to play that game. How could he know it would go this way? Protoss can do way too many things and transition on 2 base. Should he have called the bluff and kept massing drones and rushed to hydras after the first warp prism? Should he just not fear the 2 base immortal sentry all-in and just make more drones every game? Its very hard right now in ZvP to make a good decision, it usually feels like a gamble no matter what. It feels like queens need hallucination phoenix type of thing to make the match-up easier to read right now.. Ovie speed can help, until you scout the chargelots/immortal all-in that is hitting you in 10 seconds. Grats, you invested 100/100 early, delayed lair and get a 10seconds heads-up against one of the strongest all-in in the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 07 2019 20:58 Snakestyle11 wrote: To me, the most frustrating game in the Classic vs soO series was the game Classic went warp prism harass opening on a build that looks to be a fast Immortal push, into two stargates mass phenixes ( At this point soO expects immortal rush, so he spread ovies for vision, cuts drone count low to make some roaches and ravagers to defend all-in, slows down queen production, delays lair..) Then the 2 stargate pheonix does insane damage obviously, renders ravagers useless and can kill them for free, so soO cant really invest in more ravagers, making more spores destroys his already low drone count, he loses ovies and more drones to pheonixes, hes forced to remake drones and tech to something that will allow him to breathe against phoenixes. At this point, he has almost no vision on the map, 2 stargate pheonixes make the zerg completely blind. soO then assumes classic will probably take a third base and tech to colossus to counter the hydras mass pheonixes force, but you cant really scout to be sure as the zerg at that point with all those pheonixes, he takes a gamble and goes corruptors to counter pheonixes/colossus; he needs something to come back any ways, hes behind from all these misreads. Nah, protoss goes sentry immortal all-in anyways, with tons of built up sentry energy, tons of pheonixes to completely negate ravagers and i mean.. what are corruptors gonna do against sentry/immortal? I truly believe after the 2 stargate pheonixes, Classic couldve done any sort of 2 base push and won, or went into a third base and won any ways, he was too far ahead. All of this is because how powerful warp-prism/immortal centric 2 base all-ins are against zerg. You HAVE to cut drones early and mass ravagers ( or ling bane, depending on version, or rush hydras to defend another version..). If you just take a small risk and drone a bit too hard in the chance that they just take a late third and macro, you lose to an all-in. Every Zerg in Korea is playing from behind in ZvP because they have to blind counter well executed immortal/warp prism all-ins. I really dont know how soO was supposed to play that game. How could he know it would go this way? Protoss can do way too many things and transition on 2 base. Should he have called the bluff and kept massing drones and rushed to hydras after the first warp prism? Should he just not fear the 2 base immortal sentry all-in and just make more drones every game? Its very hard right now in ZvP to make a good decision, it usually feels like a gamble no matter what. It feels like queens need hallucination phoenix type of thing to make the match-up easier to read right now.. Ovie speed can help, until you scout the chargelots/immortal all-in that is hitting you in 10 seconds. Grats, you invested 100/100 early, delayed lair and get a 10seconds heads-up against one of the strongest all-in in the game. Bingo. I’d still like to see a prism pickup range nerf just because it’s a bit silly, I don’t actually think Immortal juggling makes a huge difference. Certainly a nerf I don’t think will make PvZ much better, it’s rare that I see a push where I feel juggling makes the difference, usually I feel the Zerg is either dead or going to crush the push before the engage and that instinct is usually on the money. There is no ‘push’, there’s a giant gameshow wheel of similar looking pushes. Plus the transition to taking a third base and playing into +2 or +3 chargelot/Immortal with storm. Zerg can’t overdrone if it’s an aggressive push, they have to time their droning/army balance on a knife edge, if it’s a fake or you just misread and they’re going to 3 base early and you underdrone you just die to a later attack. Then you have to get the composition right too, banes can do work against adepts, really not very good against forcefields. Delay for hydras and be weaker to things that hit earlier, or crank out roaches and get shredded by a later one with more immortals? It’s a tough one, the higher starting workers in Legacy really don’t seem to help in regards to Zergs scouting these out. Also ifnZerg can scout too well the matchup could flip in the other direction. But yes it is definitely a problem. Alternatively I’d like a nerf to the prism as it pertains i warp ins. At least experimented with. Perhaps a cost increase for prism warpins, maybe warpgare cooldowns increases when used with a prism, maybe warping in takes longer. See if hitting slightly less hard with slightly fewer units, or pushes having slightly less staying power through slower second waves makes them more holdable. The normal prism we have now could be restored with an upgrade as I think we Protoss kind of need it in its current form in the lategame. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
Also nerfing the cost of wapring makes the game just a mess. There are multiple nerfs possible - lower the cost of WP, make warp ins/pick up range an upgrade - disable the shield regen inside of the WP - obvious nerf the pick up range - nerf the warp in area/time(slower warp in would weaken these pushes too, easier to kill the wp) | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 07 2019 23:42 deacon.frost wrote: Juggling makes a huge difference as you can place the WP in a safe spot and save any immortal in troubles which makes them to live very long. All this while the WP is in its warping mode. If you have to decided whether to warp in units or save units it would be a different story. It's all about the WP micro, if Zerg snipes the WP the push is over, yet even ravagers with their bile attack are not enough. Also nerfing the cost of wapring makes the game just a mess. There are multiple nerfs possible - lower the cost of WP, make warp ins/pick up range an upgrade - disable the shield regen inside of the WP - obvious nerf the pick up range - nerf the warp in area/time(slower warp in would weaken these pushes too, easier to kill the wp) Juggling doesnt matter if the Zerg player executes the proper response. For example, see Classic vs Soo game 2, where Classic's massive immortal chargelot army evaporated despite warp prism support. a Warp prism + a few immortals doesnt mean anything if the rest of the army just melts (which Zerg armies are capable of doing to protoss armies if the engagement is good) This highlights the fact that the problem is not that individual units are too good vs Zerg, but, as Wombat stated, that it is too difficult for zerg to respond properly to the vast variation of builds available to protoss at that point in the game. Nerfing the warp prism would be a huge mistake. It is trying to fix the mistake of the Queen + creep nerf, which, along with the cheaper robo, is the obvious cause of the state of PvZ, by tinkering with another dynamic which has been perfectly fine all this time. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 06 2019 07:38 NbaLover wrote: Based on 2019 result and current form, we can only assume he is the "currently" the best at this very moment. Dark is a close 2nd for me. We all know he is great and consistent but god damn it I just want him to start winning something instead of all these Top 4, Top 2 finishes. Such a fun trash talking personality. Classic has been clutch but super cheesy in PvZ, I feel this could be exploited in a bo7 finals. He surely has one of the best PvP in Korea, but he didn't get to play the ones who could stop him, Stats and Zest(actually taken down by sOs who Classic proceeded to slay 3-1). Classic's PvT didn't seem convincing to me: Maru beat him quite convincingly(ok, it's Maru), Gumiho threw very hard and Inno nomatched him. Classic is among the best in Korea and had the best results in GSL this year. He is, however, venerated as being evidently better than his peers, which doesn't really seem me to be the case. | ||
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(I don't believe in coincidence that much)
