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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51450 Posts
 GSL Season 2Streams & CastersFormat
Map Pool Quarterfinals![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/680.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/634.jpg)  Classic vs  soO![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/618.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg) Trap vs  INnoVationResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51450 Posts
Poll: Classic vs soO Classic Wins (37) soO Wins (27) 64 total votes Your vote: Classic vs soO | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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RatzBarcode
United States98 Posts
Innovation and being knocked out by a slightly inferior protoss, name a more iconic duo. I say this as a huge fan. | ||
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noise.harvester
9 Posts
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dysenterymd
1173 Posts
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`
1 Post
I think Trap wins by stopping INnoVation's tutu push in the fifth game. I really hope I'm wrong and we see INno use some fresh, planned out strategies to counter Trap instead of resorting to his weekender/ladder hero 80+% TvP push. | ||
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JJH777
United States4376 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
Classic 3:1 soOTrap 3:2 INnoVationAlthough Trap vs Inno could go both ways, so I wouldn't be surprised if any of the two takes it | ||
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Plebsmeister
15 Posts
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easyway6
8 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 05 2019 03:44 JJH777 wrote: I'm shocked Innovation is favored in the voting. I'm sure Maru is doing a better version of Innovations TvP push against Trap a bunch of times a day to get him ready for this match. Stats already had it held with just a few less control errors. Trap isn't going to lose to that. In my opinion Innovations only shot is bringing something new which isn't really his specialty. Especially not with only 5 days to prep. Why do you think Maru is doing a better version of Innovation's push? Innovation's two base timings are ridiculously strong recently. In fact he's been destroying maru himself with timings (obviously a different matchup, but it's obvious that innovation has a really good grasp on timings. something is really clicking for him if he regularly beats guys like stats and maru with them) Maru's TvP shines in his early aggression + ability to macro. Innovation seems to eclipse him when it comes to these timing pushes though. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
the terran dominion demand you to come with us for alleged treason do you have any word to say sir ? | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
- Carriers - Cobalt x2 - Mech v Protoss - Maxpax | ||
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
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StabiloBoss20
313 Posts
Head: Classic Heart: Not sure Head: Innovation | ||
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On June 05 2019 18:38 StabiloBoss20 wrote: Heart: soO Head: Classic Heart: Not sure Head: Innovation Trap would be awesome to see win but only if he makes it to the finals. This is like the fifth time Classic has been the "hottest player in the world" and all the previous times he's always failed in the finals. will history repeat himself? | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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Plebsmeister
15 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
fun | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
welcome to protoss | ||
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darklycid
3373 Posts
On June 05 2019 18:56 Argonauta wrote: a bit lame this bo5. Why korean pros refuse to macro? Ever Seen PvZ lategame (or Played it?) | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 18:56 Argonauta wrote: a bit lame this bo5. Why korean pros refuse to macro? Because no protoss wants to play PvZ lategame. Much better chance to win with almost any allin | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 18:56 Argonauta wrote: a bit lame this bo5. Why korean pros refuse to macro? Because zerg lategame is bonkers | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
ofc, much more interesting and dynamic | ||
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StabiloBoss20
313 Posts
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darklycid
3373 Posts
What lategame are you playing 0.o. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
On June 05 2019 18:59 Pandain wrote: Literally what a joke series from classic. you wrote "smart play" wrong | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
the regular one | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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darklycid
3373 Posts
If u say it's dynamic i doubt it. | ||
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Penev
28449 Posts
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
Smart play sure. Also fucking terrible to watch | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
\ nah bro, step up your play. | ||
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Plebsmeister
15 Posts
not broken at all ty blizzard User was banned for this post. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:00 Pandain wrote: Smart play sure. Also fucking terrible to watch He's not playing for views and internet cool points. Dude wants to win a gsl one more time, he's gotta do what he's gotta do | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:01 NoS-Craig wrote: Even pros lose to not scouting their own base. I know this feeling. It has happened to me a lot when I first started playing Starcraft. Iirc someone worked out that herO lost between $160-240K in series he lost to in-base proxy gates. The best part is they were all over the course of about a year | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:02 NExt wrote: He's not playing for views and internet cool points. Dude wants to win a gsl one more time, he's gotta do what he's gotta do Hah yeah I love this idea that you risk 35 grand to entertain a small portion of the player base. I love soO more than Classic and even I was entertained. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:03 liberate71 wrote: Hah yeah I love this idea that you risk 35 grand to entertain a small portion of the player base. I love soO more than Classic and even I was entertained. No one is saying that he shouldn't play to win. Just means the series sucks. | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:00 Pandain wrote: Smart play sure. Also fucking terrible to watch to you, sure to me, pretty entertaining, but too fast, he he | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:04 hiroshOne wrote: Scouting this earlier wouldn't change a thing because of cannon on the lowground. This is straight ShieldBattery abuse. Zerg has nothing on this stage of the game to outdamage this shit. It's autowin for P. Thanks Blizzard. U really made this game great again. Trump style. If soO scouted that pylon earlier, he'd have spines earlier and less chance for that snowball from the batteries, no? | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:03 blooblooblahblah wrote: Classic mixes in these cannon rushes so perfectly. I swear he's like never lost a cannon rush PvZ in GSL ever, but he doesn't do it enough that you would ever try and meta game him. Never forget the time he cannon rushed Rogue and then lost to the fake proxy hatch into actual proxy hatch | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4098 Posts
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StabiloBoss20
313 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:04 Pandain wrote: No one is saying that he shouldn't play to win. Just means the series sucks. To each their own, I'm entertained, I just feel bad for soO - but someones gotta lose. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:05 Argonauta wrote: Ifr quick cheeses is the smart play, time to go back to 6 worker start? At least we will have more meaningful cheeses alternatively, bo7 or bo9 matches | ||
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SAFenix
Canada439 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:04 hiroshOne wrote: Scouting this earlier wouldn't change a thing because of cannon on the lowground. This is straight ShieldBattery abuse. Zerg has nothing on this stage of the game to outdamage this shit. It's autowin for P. Thanks Blizzard. U really made this game great again. Trump style. Dude you need to calm down. You've commented 3 things similar to this in the exact same thread... you have made your point. | ||
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Penev
28449 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:04 NotSoHappy wrote: to you, sure to me, pretty entertaining, but too fast, he he I'm glad you enjoy all-in adept and immortal pushes that either outright win or lose right away. hope you and the other same 5 people in here enjoy at least the cannon rush is entertaining also im mostly tilted just ignore me guys | ||
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Noa Greenini
265 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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StabiloBoss20
313 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:05 M2 wrote: since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc, cause in 2min there are immortals with shield batterys and you not gonna kill a single unit anymore. and obviously thats gg. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:05 M2 wrote: since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc, Think because the Protoss usually follows up with a proxy Robo to get out an Immortal which kinda kills spines easily. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:05 M2 wrote: since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc, Because the protoss will use his new "base" as an unstoppable shield battery fest in the next wave of attack! If he gets ranged units there, like the highly interesting Immortal, they are almost impossible to stop with cannon and battery support. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:06 Pandain wrote: I'm glad you enjoy all-in adept and immortal pushes that either outright win or lose right away. hope you and the other same 5 people in here enjoy at least the cannon rush is entertaining blizz should just issue a rule to remove all the dirty cheeses and all-ins from the game | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:06 hiroshOne wrote: This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T. Meanwhile Dark in his latest GSL interview "12 pool if executed properly counters every build in sc2" | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4098 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:08 Morbidius wrote: PvZ has become like the proxy meta of last year. Cheese is standard. Macro is cheese. But you cant macro since youre getting cheesed. So you better off cheesing yourself so you survive against cheese and win against macro. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:09 Fango wrote: Meanwhile Dark in his latest GSL interview "12 pool if executed properly counters every build in sc2" Dark is a polish zerg :O | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:06 hiroshOne wrote: This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T. Yes, let's make zerg: best at preparing, best at macroing, best at all-ining, best ant cheese and best at responding. this sure will be one, well balanced game | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:10 M2 wrote: ok I got it, I thought that ravagers can hold such attacks You need enough of them to one-shot the immortal. And some Protosses can go into void rays. And then you need plenty of queens(which are not made from the eggs). + don't forget one or two cannons will shoot at the units which are moving from the natural. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
"i think this scout pattern is just gonna win him the game, the build is kinda bad. No nevermind hes turning around." | ||
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
Damn zerg shouldve really scouted that and know iit was coming. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:12 NotSoHappy wrote: Yes, let's make zerg: best at preparing, best at macroing, best at all-ining, best ant cheese and best at responding. this sure will be one, well balanced game Best at macroing? since the inject nerf not really. Protoss can easily keep up. Best anti cheese? lol | ||
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Penev
28449 Posts
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:18 ByuuN wrote: Chin up. Nice. Feels bad for soO but I think Dark would handle Classic if they met - shame Innovation is going to ruin that party ^_^ | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:18 Argonauta wrote: luckily zerg has his lategame to shine you can pm me when it finally shines | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation the translator is a zerg player perhap | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Highrock1
50 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:22 deacon.frost wrote: Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution. what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy! | ||
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StabiloBoss20
313 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:19 deacon.frost wrote: I'm not surprised, Classic is the best player in the RO8, but the way how he won, damn. and Hamilton might be the best driver in F1. But as long as he sits in a Mercedes it's not relevant  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:27 seemsgood wrote: what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy! I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!! | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:29 deacon.frost wrote: I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!! Oh, so it's not just me... | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:29 deacon.frost wrote: I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!! Yeah the mandatory unchangable promotion screen is the worst idea Blizzard has had about this game. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:32 yht9657 wrote: Yeah the mandatory unchangable promotion screen is the worst idea Blizzard has had about this game. I bought all 3 games right at the release date, at least the paying customers should have the option to hide them. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
On June 05 2019 19:40 Andi_Goldberger wrote: losing reaper with no scout is an ouch he also seemed to lose a mule on a weird spot (not mining) | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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youaremysin
119 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
Also C O B A L T H Y P E | ||
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Treveis
11 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:00 Durnuu wrote: M E C H A N I C H Y P E Also C O B A L T H Y P E Not Cobalt | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
I know, but next game! | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:03 Andi_Goldberger wrote: damn this push looks strong The map and its defensive position with 1 ramp helps too. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
I think were not gonna see pheonix opener again | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
Reminds of some random TvZ game Innovation played where he went mech and did this really methodical push across the map and killed some guy many years ago. No idea who or when this was. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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Treveis
11 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:09 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm just happy Innovation is actually doing different builds today thats ro8 bogus | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:19 Andi_Goldberger wrote: trap just fought without storms for like thoe whole fight wat He had to wait for the ghosts to die/use all their EMPs | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:20 Durnuu wrote: He had to wait for the ghosts to die/use all their EMPs allow me to introduce you to my friend the 8 storm warp prism edit: god damn his marine was shift clicked to bottom right but he placed the new nexus there and the marine got picked off thats unlucky | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:21 seemsgood wrote: BCs when ? He's not even getting 3/3 so I'm not sure we'll see BCs  | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
EDIT: Yeah, Bogus is dead. | ||
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:25 NExt wrote: Inno forget 3/3?? He was balancing on a knifes edge, probably didnt think he could afford it. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:23 lolfail9001 wrote: So, ninja base wins the game? EDIT: Yeah, Bogus is dead. Man, I hate ninja base. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:14 NoS-Craig wrote: Inno losing not paying attention to his units in the middle of the map. INno doesn't focus on more than one thing at once. Every time Trap sent a warp prism in you see his entire army F2 in the middle. | ||
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Soyuz
Hong Kong996 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:26 NoS-Craig wrote: Was hoping Inno would check the other mains earlier. The one marine that was waypointed to the bottom right main was killed | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Treveis
11 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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stilt
France2737 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:26 Fango wrote: INno doesn't focus on more than one thing at once. Every time Trap sent a warp prism in you see his entire army F2 in the middle. yeah I always felt like Inno's multitask wasn't amazing for a pro | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: The funny thing is Inno had a marine shift queued to look for that base but then it ended up seeing the other base first and then got killed by a stalker lol Thing is by the time the marine could have reached the bottom right base, it had been up/fully saturated for way too long. Inno needed to have scouted it earlier (around the time he won that big fight and took down the 4th base) | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:26 Ej_ wrote: Thank you betting sites for the 2.4 odds on Trap. Can we somehow use the odds to accuse Inno of matchfixing cuz I guess that's the trend these days? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8220 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:26 Ej_ wrote: Thank you betting sites for the 2.4 odds on Trap. How much did you bet? Series isn't even over yet. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:30 geokilla wrote: How much did you bet? Series isn't even over yet. I just wanna point out Ej also bet on soO lmao | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:31 Durnuu wrote: I just wanna point out Ej also bet on soO lmao You need to spread your bets to cover your losses otherwise your bookmaker will add you to the list of people who are not supposed to walk anymore | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:31 Durnuu wrote: I just wanna point out Ej also bet on soO lmao I had a coupon soo+trap | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
I'm still going to make fun of you | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:38 Durnuu wrote: No mech smh 4/10 game | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:28 Anc13nt wrote: yeah I always felt like Inno's multitask wasn't amazing for a pro He's amazing when there's only one thing going on e.g. turtle much or parade pushes. But his multitasking and reactive play have never been great. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:41 Fango wrote: He's amazing when there's only one thing going on e.g. turtle much or parade pushes. But his multitasking and reactive play have never been great. And somehow he always wins vs Maru... | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
That imagin in my mind when liberators throw pillows at you | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:43 lolfail9001 wrote: Yeah, Bogus looks like kinda dead now, easiest Ro4 of Trap's life i guess, at this rate Trap might get 2nd place in next season. It will be like Hyun vs Sniper finals | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
edit: im getting flashbacks to his game on kings cove vs dark | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:43 lolfail9001 wrote: Yeah, Bogus looks like kinda dead now, easiest Ro4 of Trap's life i guess, at this rate Trap might get 2nd place in next season. Trap ain't taking more than 1-2 games of Classic | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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CoupdeBoule
73 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:49 deacon.frost wrote: That was the worst possible attack, why Trap? Creates a C shape then just A-moved lol. The prism just flew in head first with units in it. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:50 Ej_ wrote: Highest skilled era btw Jin air coaching btw | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Highrock1
50 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:50 liberate71 wrote: Creates a C shape then just A-moved lol. The prism just flew in head first with units in it. Both templars got out, 1 didn't have the energy, 2nd put great storm, wasn't enough. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
EDIT: Then another rax | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:53 deacon.frost wrote: Both templars got out, 1 didn't have the energy, 2nd put great storm, wasn't enough. Ah I missed that, I thought it was the first thing to die. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:57 seemsgood wrote: what kind of proxy is this ? Failed proxy | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:57 seemsgood wrote: what kind of proxy is this ? The kind that gets spotted, apparently | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:57 seemsgood wrote: what kind of proxy is this ? The old 'keep the banshee busy' strat | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Australia10252 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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1557 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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1557 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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Germany1608 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Australia3090 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
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stilt
France2737 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
AIR COACHING | ||
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agsub
Singapore368 Posts
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
inno trying his hardest to get those buffs | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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Mlord
France135 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
herO beating Dark is a tall order though | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
Also wanting Classic to destroy Trap at the semis now. | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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stilt
France2737 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:06 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 8/8 died, but 4/4 still lives! herO beating Dark is a tall order though The dream is alive ! With this meta, herO will all in to death the poor zerg. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:07 kyllinghest wrote: Pretty cool series, too bad about the racial distribution for the semis, but we cant really ask Trap to throw more! GG WP to the winners. but you can always ask bogus not to throw | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Penev
28449 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck He already got a Blizzcon-level paycheck at WESG so it wouldn't suck too much for him at least. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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raff100
498 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:06 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 8/8 died, but 4/4 still lives! herO beating Dark is a tall order though check aligulac, you might be surprised how well hero does vs dark | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck On the other hand Trap looks like a lock | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:10 Terra1 wrote: After 2 years (since GSL 2017 Season 2 Code S), no Terrans in the finals. I'm happy for Dark to win if he makes it in the finals. dark should win against herO unless he chokes for n times | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing. Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
yeah Inno needs to win Super tournament or make GSL finals (or at least do well in both) to make Blizzcon in all likelihood. He's in similar situation as last year basically but last year he flopped out of both. | ||
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repomaniak
Poland324 Posts
GSL wedding in seoul but GSL more important GSL Classic interview GSL cheer GSL make a big trap GSL Lets go humans GSL Audience GSL Tastosis psistorm is a good ability storm costs less mana? GSL Trap interview | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago: Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player. Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms! | ||
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Penev
28449 Posts
Dark won all (3) matches in 2019 though | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:13 Anc13nt wrote: yeah Inno needs to win Super tournament or make GSL finals (or at least do well in both) to make Blizzcon in all likelihood. He's in similar situation as last year basically but last year he flopped out of both. He also doesn't have the form to do either. I'm surprised he even made ro8 here tbh. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago: Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player. Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago: Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player. The better player at the moment always wins, but virtue of the defintion of the word better. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:14 Ej_ wrote: Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms! that's almost as painful as when he lost all his medivacs against Stats or when his medivacs got trapped by Zest | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:14 Ej_ wrote: Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms! I didn't say he was perfect, but his tank push timings were about as crisp as could be--what else was he supposed to do? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
dude won against both bogus and maru and on the other day started bombing out....like a turd...in the wind.. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:15 Fango wrote: He also doesn't have the form to do either. I'm surprised he even made ro8 here tbh. Yeah but Inno is the type of guy whose skill can fluctuate a lot in a few months. Too bad because he's looking pretty strong right now but I have hope he might still improve even though its looking bad for him. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:16 Anc13nt wrote: that's almost as painful as when he lost all his medivacs against Stats or when his medivacs got trapped by Zest Against Zest he was gonna lose anyway and the medivacs was his last ditch effort. Here he could have made something happen but stacked all his libs up and lost them to storm. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I hope Trap gets to the finals, Classic is way too cheesy for my tastes recently. Dark can definitely beat herO and ruin the x/x "dream" nonsense. Edit: Patience is Justice incarnate. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:19 Fango wrote: Against Zest he was gonna lose anyway and the medivacs was his last ditch effort. Here he could have made something happen but stacked all his libs up and lost them to storm. yeah I thought he was going to get destroyed by sending his medivacs but it put him back in the game until he lost like 4 libs for almost no gain. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
Indeed! | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:17 Fango wrote: Remember last time Classic won GSL and no one celebrated for him because toss was imba at the time? What I remember was Classic winning and in a week Zest winning the global Championship tournament from all the regional heroes which overshadowed Classic so much he lost in the next RO32. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:15 Anc13nt wrote: Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:18 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah but Inno is the type of guy whose skill can fluctuate a lot in a few months. Too bad because he's looking pretty strong right now but I have hope he might still improve even though its looking bad for him. His skill usually fluctuates depending on how well terran does. Almost every time he's he's won terran has been the best race at the time. I don't think I've even seen him even make ro8 as the sole terran until now. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:22 Harris1st wrote: Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:24 Anc13nt wrote: I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive ^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:27 seemsgood wrote: trap didnt play too well either everything was pretty Ok ish from him save for game one but bogus s micro was unacceptable today as a terran admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:33 Anc13nt wrote: admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference. Trap was outmacroed by Inno but his control(most of the times) and his multitasking were better. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:26 renaissanceMAN wrote: ^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural. Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe. Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it. Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:37 Xain0n wrote: Trap was outmacroed by Inno but his control(most of the times) and his multitasking were better. Yeah I've felt the same about his multitask. I think his decision making and strategy are actually pretty good but he sometimes plays too decisively and either gives up his timing or creates an all in situation that didn't need to happen. Edit: In terms of micro, his splitting is still really good but he suffers because his reaction time and multitask (which seem to be pretty related) aren't Maru-level. Whenever Maru got psi-stormed, he reacted lightning fast whereas Inno was walking in and out of storms for days. That might be why Inno succeeds with his timing-based style, because it requires less multitask but more macro and tech unit usage. which play to his strengths (I think that's why his TvT is so strong). Maru on the other hand is a lot more dynamic and even though he does a lot of timings too, his defense/transitions are a lot better (he gets his third running faster it feels like). | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:40 Harris1st wrote: Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe. Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it. Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage hindsight is 20/20 but the reason why Inno's timings are so strong is precisely because he doesn't do those things. Looking back, I agree that he should've done what you said but it wasn't immediately obvious that that was the right choice. For a while It really did look like his timing would win the series in the last game (since the templar archives got unpowered) but it turned out to be barely too late. | ||
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DreamlnCode
United Kingdom77 Posts
You can't take a 'Wait and See' approach to balancing the game when you created these glaring issues in the first place without fixing them. But at this point I think Blizzard has enough problems to deal with before they even think about addressing this. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:33 Anc13nt wrote: admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference. On June 05 2019 21:40 Harris1st wrote: Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe. Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it. Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage its because dude never really wanted to play long game against P and harrassing really hurt his timing all in so his style s better suited for small map or shitty spawn cobalt . i dont know but bogus s play in the later stage of the game feels pretty reluctant to me maru and serral just let the opponent throws whatever he wants and react to it | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 05 2019 22:02 seemsgood wrote: its because dude never really wanted to play long game against P and harrassing really hurt his timing all in so his style s better suited for small map or shitty spawn cobalt . i dont know but bogus s play in the later stage of the game feels pretty reluctant to me maru and serral just let the opponent throws whatever he wants and react to it In that case do a proper all-in, take most of the SCVs and let Trap go into a basetrade. This was a push intended to kill Protoss while the Protoss couldn't kill your production(when your production isn't supporting the push). It seems to be too indecisive. I get where you aim, I just think that under the current circumstances you have to take the SCVs or prepare defense against a drop. You can't do a half baked solution nowadays. But maybe I'm too harsh on Terrans, in the end I am a very bad Terran. So I may see it wrong | ||
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NbaLover
24 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:53 DreamlnCode wrote: Yeh, I think i'm done watching for the season, unless the planets align and Dark makes the finals. You can't take a 'Wait and See' approach to balancing the game when you created these glaring issues in the first place without fixing them. But at this point I think Blizzard has enough problems to deal with before they even think about addressing this. Good, we don't really want a cry baby anyways. Balance is fine, terran just need to learn to git gud I'm just glad we can finally enjoy a GSL final without a Terran in it. As long as we get to see dark in the final, it's all good. (unless he does his usual chokejob) | ||
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DreamlnCode
United Kingdom77 Posts
On June 05 2019 22:58 NbaLover wrote: Good, we don't really want a cry baby anyways. Balance is fine, terran just need to learn to git gud I'm just glad we can finally enjoy a GSL final without a Terran in it. As long as we get to see dark in the final, it's all good. (unless he does his usual chokejob) ha, much english, very clear. You'd have to be blind to not see a current problem in all match-ups, but of course it's more comforting to blame a single race. | ||
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burnturn
United States59 Posts
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yyltyler
23 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck What will suck more is that we are probably getting 5/8 Protoss at Blizzcon. Dark and soO are locked in, but for another Zerg to do it they would probably need to win Season 3 or get a miracle run in the remaining tournaments. Gumiho might get surpassed by Parting soon, and then he and Inno will really need something special to get in too. | ||
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Moonerz
United States441 Posts
Inno v Trap was super close, could have gone either way. Warp prism looking super strong as always and the harass really dictated the series. Terran really can't afford to let those in and get a full warp in round. Feel like in general Terran doesn't have the leeway to make as many mistakes as protoss. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 06 2019 00:10 Morbidius wrote: What will suck more is that we are probably getting 5/8 Protoss at Blizzcon. Dark and soO are locked in, but for another Zerg to do it they would probably need to win Season 3 or get a miracle run in the remaining tournaments. Gumiho might get surpassed by Parting soon, and then he and Inno will really need something special to get in too. Either Hurricane or PartinG will necessarily surpass Gumiho, but he could still be in a good spot to make BlizzCon if he puts up good results again. GSL sent four Protoss already in 2016 and 2018, and Korean Protoss were always the relative majority at BlizzCon with the only exceptions being 2017(GSL sent two) and 2013(there were eight Terran). | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On June 05 2019 05:50 AzAlexZ wrote: Classic 3:1 soOTrap 3:2 INnoVationAlthough Trap vs Inno could go both ways, so I wouldn't be surprised if any of the two takes it XD | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary462 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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franzji
United States581 Posts
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft. Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4098 Posts
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NbaLover
24 Posts
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins. Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft. Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot. That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners. Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect. Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm | ||
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Moonerz
United States441 Posts
On June 06 2019 06:09 NbaLover wrote: That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners. Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect. Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm Basically everyone says Classic is the best player atm. Hes the favorite to win the tournament.... | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 06 2019 06:47 Moonerz wrote: Basically everyone says Classic is the best player atm. Hes the favorite to win the tournament.... But that doesn't fit his story about whiners | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On June 06 2019 02:09 kajtarp wrote: I would like to blame balance, because i think Immortals and prisms are a bit op, but why on earth is soO not researching overlord speed? Hes so bad with the scouting almost every time with his slowass overlords... You should go watch In-Dept episode(s) about robo opening vs zerg, they talked a lot about the pro and cons of getting overlord speed. Basically the con was that the 100 gas can in certain scenario make it impossible to defend some attack so maybe it's better to have sub part scouting but make a guts call with what you saw than invest 100 gas to scout what's gonna kill you. They explained it with way more details than me | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 06 2019 06:09 NbaLover wrote: That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners. Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect. Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm To be honest, I'm not convinced that Classic is the best player in Korea; he is the most consistent and he is having the best results, for sure. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 06 2019 06:52 Nakajin wrote: You should go watch In-Dept episode(s) about robo opening vs zerg, they talked a lot about the pro and cons of getting overlord speed. Basically the con was that the 100 gas can in certain scenario make it impossible to defend some attack so maybe it's better to have sub part scouting but make a guts call with what you saw than invest 100 gas to scout what's gonna kill you. They explained it with way more details than me I think NoRegret said ‘you just get to see what is about to kill you a little before it does’ or something like that. Some of the speedier timings hit before you can get your speed ovies in and react to that information, as you say. It definitely does look useful for sniffing out some other builds or ones that hit a bit later, as shown in some other games from that In Depth episode. Perhaps Zergs will figure out some kind of scouting flow chart that works for them, I can’t really figure out a way for the. To reliably do it though. I’d personally like to see slightly faster base speed for overlords, not by a huge amount but how many times do they just miss the scout barely? Zerg need a stock unit that isn’t hard countered by Protoss as hard in that phase of the game. I mean they don’t need anything, those are my personal preferences but I think PvZ is by a distance the worst matchup in the game because of hard counters. It’s a matchup where (almost always) Protoss tries to disguise or fake out some funky all in, then the Zerg has to figure a response, if they pick wrong they die pretty hard, if they pick right they usually win pretty hard. Banes can shred Protoss melee, but are terrible if it’s actually a sentry heavy push, Roaches do well enough against melee but get shredded by Immortals. Hydras are decent but you usually don’t have enough units if it’s a real early push. But if you misread and don’t tech to hydras and go roach heavy Immortals destroy you. Much respect to Classic for some really crisp and smart builds for sure, but the matchup really isn’t in a satisfying place for me as a viewer. It usually comes down to a single push, and I’m not a soothsayer but I’ve watched enough Starcraft to know before the push even hits who is going to win, about 90% of the time. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 06 2019 07:21 Wombat_NI wrote: I think NoRegret said ‘you just get to see what is about to kill you a little before it does’ or something like that. Some of the speedier timings hit before you can get your speed ovies in and react to that information, as you say. It definitely does look useful for sniffing out some other builds or ones that hit a bit later, as shown in some other games from that In Depth episode. Perhaps Zergs will figure out some kind of scouting flow chart that works for them, I can’t really figure out a way for the. To reliably do it though. I’d personally like to see slightly faster base speed for overlords, not by a huge amount but how many times do they just miss the scout barely? Zerg need a stock unit that isn’t hard countered by Protoss as hard in that phase of the game. I mean they don’t need anything, those are my personal preferences but I think PvZ is by a distance the worst matchup in the game because of hard counters. It’s a matchup where (almost always) Protoss tries to disguise or fake out some funky all in, then the Zerg has to figure a response, if they pick wrong they die pretty hard, if they pick right they usually win pretty hard. Banes can shred Protoss melee, but are terrible if it’s actually a sentry heavy push, Roaches do well enough against melee but get shredded by Immortals. Hydras are decent but you usually don’t have enough units if it’s a real early push. But if you misread and don’t tech to hydras and go roach heavy Immortals destroy you. Much respect to Classic for some really crisp and smart builds for sure, but the matchup really isn’t in a satisfying place for me as a viewer. It usually comes down to a single push, and I’m not a soothsayer but I’ve watched enough Starcraft to know before the push even hits who is going to win, about 90% of the time. The matchup was much more enjoyable before 2019(Nyduses first and Immortal pushes this last patch made TvZ a cheese/all in fest). | ||
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NbaLover
24 Posts
On June 06 2019 06:53 Xain0n wrote: To be honest, I'm not convinced that Classic is the best player in Korea; he is the most consistent and he is having the best results, for sure. Based on 2019 result and current form, we can only assume he is the "currently" the best at this very moment. Dark is a close 2nd for me. We all know he is great and consistent but god damn it I just want him to start winning something instead of all these Top 4, Top 2 finishes. Such a fun trash talking personality. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins. Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft. Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot. Would be nice yeah. Classic against soO wasn’t enjoyable, but I found it an admirable series for the reasons you said. Trap Inno were pretty good macro PvT games and pretty back and forth too Trap’s hold and counter was great play in game 5, I would have brought my prism and those units back to hold, but he made a great call, held narrowly and did a lot of counter damage. I’m not sure if people are unaware at this stage or just wilfully ignore how hard Protoss lategame armies are to control and split in PvT, but yeah the chats will just be full of ‘A move Protoss’ | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 06 2019 07:27 Xain0n wrote: The matchup was much more enjoyable before 2019(Nyduses first and Immortal pushes this last patch made TvZ a cheese/all in fest). It absolutely sucks to my tastes anyway, I think PvZ on balance has been my most disliked matchup for most of SC2, bar some small periods. I’ve only seen real top level games of the game last patch, it many aside from that, actually quite liked the state of the matchup there. Ok so maybe Serral v Stats etc are a small sample size where I haven’t maybe seen games below that level and what they looked like, seemed pretty decent. Maybe it lead to many terrible games too in other tournies I haven’t seen. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3053 Posts
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necrosexy
451 Posts
On June 06 2019 09:15 sudete wrote: The funniest thing that is being said is that inno played perfectly. He was way cleaner in those alphaX and olimoleague games against classic (5-1) and trap (3-1). I guess online inno is beyond perfect now in other words, inno choked | ||
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Topin
Peru10039 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players. Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 06 2019 13:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran. honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players. Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 06 2019 14:42 Anc13nt wrote: honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players. Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall. Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine. FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department. Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced. If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible. It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers) Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong? | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players. Zerg didn't do well in GSL, mostly because the area where they were strong were really short, and didn't last enough for a GSL. For example, Rogue had good results with hydras, but they split them again before he could reach GSL finals. Same with drop overlord, they nerfed it a few days before the semi-final of the GSL, an both zerg were eliminated. Nyndus nerf happenned really fast, etc... On the meantime, it took age to have the proxy reaper nerf, and Byun eliminated Dark twice during this area. Could he have done that without reapers ? I doubt it. After, they reworked tanks, and started the Innovation area. Also TY, and gumiho did great this time, actually the best result of their carrer, as they never won a premier tournament before. And after, Maru domination started, and Maru could enjoyed the mass raven enough to win a GSL. It got nerfed, but he got buffs to other things. And the strange part is where was Maru when Byun, Innovation, gumiho were winning if he were that good ? It looks like that some Terran have some prefered playstyle and depending on the meta/balance one different terran performed. But zerg on the other side have never got a period of time long enough where they can enjoy "to be OP", like T did. Also there is the Serral effect, where you see balance team nerfing zerg in order to lower the gap between Serral and other players in the foreigner scene. So sure, when the best T Serral usually fight is uthermal or special, or the best P protoss Neeb or showtime, nerfing zerg doesn't seem to affect much Serral results. But when Dark/soo fight Innovation/Maru, or Classic/Stats, it's way different, and it makes kor Zerg impossible to compete vs P/T in korea because they're no such a skill gap like between Serral and the foreigners players. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6761 Posts
On June 06 2019 16:37 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg didn't do well in GSL, mostly because the area where they were strong were really short, and didn't last enough for a GSL. For example, Rogue had good results with hydras, but they split them again before he could reach GSL finals. Same with drop overlord, they nerfed it a few days before the semi-final of the GSL, an both zerg were eliminated. Nyndus nerf happenned really fast, etc... On the meantime, it took age to have the proxy reaper nerf, and Byun eliminated Dark twice during this area. Could he have done that without reapers ? I doubt it. After, they reworked tanks, and started the Innovation area. Also TY, and gumiho did great this time, actually the best result of their carrer, as they never won a premier tournament before. And after, Maru domination started, and Maru could enjoyed the mass raven enough to win a GSL. It got nerfed, but he got buffs to other things. And the strange part is where was Maru when Byun, Innovation, gumiho were winning if he were that good ? It looks like that some Terran have some prefered playstyle and depending on the meta/balance one different terran performed. But zerg on the other side have never got a period of time long enough where they can enjoy "to be OP", like T did. Also there is the Serral effect, where you see balance team nerfing zerg in order to lower the gap between Serral and other players in the foreigner scene. So sure, when the best T Serral usually fight is uthermal or special, or the best P protoss Neeb or showtime, nerfing zerg doesn't seem to affect much Serral results. But when Dark/soo fight Innovation/Maru, or Classic/Stats, it's way different, and it makes kor Zerg impossible to compete vs P/T in korea because they're no such a skill gap like between Serral and the foreigners players. Well there was the GGlord/ Infestor times when Zerg was bonkers. Also I don't think Blizz nerfs anything to keep Serral in line. The Nydus nerf was because it was a no skill gg timing attack and was absotely the right call. We are still waiting for Blizz to address the WP+Immo problem. Haven't heard anything from the balance team in ages. Blizz is to busy commiting suicide right now apparently | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Now I am almost happy I did not have the time to watch. C'mon, neither Inno nor soO in the finals? Lame! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 06 2019 16:21 deacon.frost wrote: Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine. FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department. Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced. If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible. It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers) Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong? In theory yes, if Korea had a more vibrant scene with new blood and new talent coming through. Some people will say that and be wrong and would have you think all these long standing title winning Protoss players with good pro league records all suck and Protoss their opponents. Distribution isn’t that terrible at the Ro32 anyway, but for it to be good down the line Terrans really need their ‘big 4’ to all be in shape at the same time, which never seems to happen, or have some of the next tier of Terrans have really good runs and a few of the big guys to be in shape. There’s nothing that really stands out reading over the results and having watched the games as crazy, Patience coming out first and Rogue and Ty losing first on paper yeah but they seemed reasonably watching how everyone played on the day. Protoss are a daunting gauntlet to run for sure though, it’s also the most varied race in styles by a distance. Cure is kind of like Maru, just a bit worse (who isn’t?), Patience does not play like Stats but worse, it’s like playing two totally different players. So groups with multiple Protoss become really difficult to prep for. PvZ seems to have the most actual issues, or at least has the most underwhelming matches, but I don’t see how you fix those without making Zerg just straight up too strong. Classic has been winning vZs these last two seasons vs good Zergs with really tight prepped builds to the maps laid out in advance. If Zergs can more reliably play reactively against the tightest prepped builds, or even worse be blindly safe to most, then the less tight versions that don’t cut every corner you see in weekenders they’ll absolutely crush those. I’d absolutely like things to be more competitive and have Zergs break their GSL duck for sure, I’m just wary of making them too outright strong. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Moonerz
United States441 Posts
Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance. | ||
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raff100
498 Posts
On June 06 2019 22:28 Moonerz wrote: One of the weirdest things to me is that Zest and Stats arguably two of the best Toss to ever do it haven't made any results this year (in Korea). Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance. Exactly. As much as I think that Protoss is the leading race in korea by huge margin, there is a little amount of offline matches to take considerations from.I miss the days of SSL,GSL,Proleague and Kespa Cup Starcraft needs more international tournaments, but there's no way Blizz is gonna pump more money into the scene. I'd rather have smaller Blizzcon prizepool and more events... | ||
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NbaLover
24 Posts
On June 06 2019 16:37 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg didn't do well in GSL, mostly because the area where they were strong were really short, and didn't last enough for a GSL. For example, Rogue had good results with hydras, but they split them again before he could reach GSL finals. Same with drop overlord, they nerfed it a few days before the semi-final of the GSL, an both zerg were eliminated. Nyndus nerf happenned really fast, etc... On the meantime, it took age to have the proxy reaper nerf, and Byun eliminated Dark twice during this area. Could he have done that without reapers ? I doubt it. After, they reworked tanks, and started the Innovation area. Also TY, and gumiho did great this time, actually the best result of their carrer, as they never won a premier tournament before. And after, Maru domination started, and Maru could enjoyed the mass raven enough to win a GSL. It got nerfed, but he got buffs to other things. And the strange part is where was Maru when Byun, Innovation, gumiho were winning if he were that good ? It looks like that some Terran have some prefered playstyle and depending on the meta/balance one different terran performed. But zerg on the other side have never got a period of time long enough where they can enjoy "to be OP", like T did. Also there is the Serral effect, where you see balance team nerfing zerg in order to lower the gap between Serral and other players in the foreigner scene. So sure, when the best T Serral usually fight is uthermal or special, or the best P protoss Neeb or showtime, nerfing zerg doesn't seem to affect much Serral results. But when Dark/soo fight Innovation/Maru, or Classic/Stats, it's way different, and it makes kor Zerg impossible to compete vs P/T in korea because they're no such a skill gap like between Serral and the foreigners players. You deserve praise for this post. This is one of those rare High IQ post Couldn't have said it better myself | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 06 2019 22:28 Moonerz wrote: One of the weirdest things to me is that Zest and Stats arguably two of the best Toss to ever do it haven't made any results this year (in Korea). Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance. Stats got 2nd place at IEM? And this season the group of death. Also it seems the cheesy toss is on a rise more than standard toss. Not sure what happened to Zest, maybe he stopped taking SC2 seriously? But his fall from the top is a long term thing now. On June 06 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote: In theory yes, if Korea had a more vibrant scene with new blood and new talent coming through. Some people will say that and be wrong and would have you think all these long standing title winning Protoss players with good pro league records all suck and Protoss their opponents. Distribution isn’t that terrible at the Ro32 anyway, but for it to be good down the line Terrans really need their ‘big 4’ to all be in shape at the same time, which never seems to happen, or have some of the next tier of Terrans have really good runs and a few of the big guys to be in shape. There’s nothing that really stands out reading over the results and having watched the games as crazy, Patience coming out first and Rogue and Ty losing first on paper yeah but they seemed reasonably watching how everyone played on the day. Protoss are a daunting gauntlet to run for sure though, it’s also the most varied race in styles by a distance. Cure is kind of like Maru, just a bit worse (who isn’t?), Patience does not play like Stats but worse, it’s like playing two totally different players. So groups with multiple Protoss become really difficult to prep for. PvZ seems to have the most actual issues, or at least has the most underwhelming matches, but I don’t see how you fix those without making Zerg just straight up too strong. Classic has been winning vZs these last two seasons vs good Zergs with really tight prepped builds to the maps laid out in advance. If Zergs can more reliably play reactively against the tightest prepped builds, or even worse be blindly safe to most, then the less tight versions that don’t cut every corner you see in weekenders they’ll absolutely crush those. I’d absolutely like things to be more competitive and have Zergs break their GSL duck for sure, I’m just wary of making them too outright strong. The fact that ZErgs in Korea are punished because of WCS split - that's accepted. The issue is when good players are defeated by players who are worse and it's not just one loss. It was seen at IEM. It was seen at ST. It was seen at Code S. Yes, it doesn't seem as Protoss being OP but at the same time it appears as it's mostly Protoss who gets the benefit. So there is an issue, the question is how to fix and where it is. And Terran numbers are not good at any competition. Sure, Maru may have fallen asleep on his money, but TY? Gumi? Inno? Every Terran gone bad at the same time? What a coincidence  (I don't believe in coincidence that much) | ||
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Moonerz
United States441 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 07 2019 01:15 deacon.frost wrote: Stats got 2nd place at IEM? And this season the group of death. Also it seems the cheesy toss is on a rise more than standard toss. Not sure what happened to Zest, maybe he stopped taking SC2 seriously? But his fall from the top is a long term thing now. The fact that ZErgs in Korea are punished because of WCS split - that's accepted. The issue is when good players are defeated by players who are worse and it's not just one loss. It was seen at IEM. It was seen at ST. It was seen at Code S. Yes, it doesn't seem as Protoss being OP but at the same time it appears as it's mostly Protoss who gets the benefit. So there is an issue, the question is how to fix and where it is. And Terran numbers are not good at any competition. Sure, Maru may have fallen asleep on his money, but TY? Gumi? Inno? Every Terran gone bad at the same time? What a coincidence (I don't believe in coincidence that much)2/2 from Korea at WESG were Terran, WCS distribution isn’t that bad. Terran winning GSL isn’t that bad either. Protoss can lose Zest, sOs, Dear and Stats before the playoff bracket and still be doing pretty well for themselves, Terran does not have a similar luxury Without most of their current big 4 firing on all cylinders in the same season, or players below that stepping up, or a mix of the two I don’t see Terrans having much luck on the distribution side of things. | ||
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Need
566 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 07 2019 07:33 Need wrote: Jesus Christ that soO vs Classic series... Protoss is just bullying Zerg at this point. Did Classic even take a third in the entire series? He probably doesn’t want to be bullied himself I don’t really know, my instincts are that playing for a third base and into a straight macro game is really not that good for them now, but we haven’t seen much of that I suppose. We’re not even seeing people faking these timings while secretly going for a 3 base more conventional reactive macro style | ||
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
Play to win. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 07 2019 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote: 2/2 from Korea at WESG were Terran, WCS distribution isn’t that bad. Terran winning GSL isn’t that bad either. Protoss can lose Zest, sOs, Dear and Stats before the playoff bracket and still be doing pretty well for themselves, Terran does not have a similar luxury Without most of their current big 4 firing on all cylinders in the same season, or players below that stepping up, or a mix of the two I don’t see Terrans having much luck on the distribution side of things. You do realize the Korean qualifier for WESG was November 2018, do you? And we're back to "Mvp was winning during BL/infestor, everything is fine" counter argument? AGAIN? Edit> and yes, Korean qualifier Nov2018, Tournament March2019. Think about it. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
Then the 2 stargate pheonix does insane damage obviously, renders ravagers useless and can kill them for free, so soO cant really invest in more ravagers, making more spores destroys his already low drone count, he loses ovies and more drones to pheonixes, hes forced to remake drones and tech to something that will allow him to breathe against phoenixes. At this point, he has almost no vision on the map, 2 stargate pheonixes make the zerg completely blind. soO then assumes classic will probably take a third base and tech to colossus to counter the hydras mass pheonixes force, but you cant really scout to be sure as the zerg at that point with all those pheonixes, he takes a gamble and goes corruptors to counter pheonixes/colossus; he needs something to come back any ways, hes behind from all these misreads. Nah, protoss goes sentry immortal all-in anyways, with tons of built up sentry energy, tons of pheonixes to completely negate ravagers and i mean.. what are corruptors gonna do against sentry/immortal? I truly believe after the 2 stargate pheonixes, Classic couldve done any sort of 2 base push and won, or went into a third base and won any ways, he was too far ahead. All of this is because how powerful warp-prism/immortal centric 2 base all-ins are against zerg. You HAVE to cut drones early and mass ravagers ( or ling bane, depending on version, or rush hydras to defend another version..). If you just take a small risk and drone a bit too hard in the chance that they just take a late third and macro, you lose to an all-in. Every Zerg in Korea is playing from behind in ZvP because they have to blind counter well executed immortal/warp prism all-ins. I really dont know how soO was supposed to play that game. How could he know it would go this way? Protoss can do way too many things and transition on 2 base. Should he have called the bluff and kept massing drones and rushed to hydras after the first warp prism? Should he just not fear the 2 base immortal sentry all-in and just make more drones every game? Its very hard right now in ZvP to make a good decision, it usually feels like a gamble no matter what. It feels like queens need hallucination phoenix type of thing to make the match-up easier to read right now.. Ovie speed can help, until you scout the chargelots/immortal all-in that is hitting you in 10 seconds. Grats, you invested 100/100 early, delayed lair and get a 10seconds heads-up against one of the strongest all-in in the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24155 Posts
On June 07 2019 20:58 Snakestyle11 wrote: To me, the most frustrating game in the Classic vs soO series was the game Classic went warp prism harass opening on a build that looks to be a fast Immortal push, into two stargates mass phenixes ( At this point soO expects immortal rush, so he spread ovies for vision, cuts drone count low to make some roaches and ravagers to defend all-in, slows down queen production, delays lair..) Then the 2 stargate pheonix does insane damage obviously, renders ravagers useless and can kill them for free, so soO cant really invest in more ravagers, making more spores destroys his already low drone count, he loses ovies and more drones to pheonixes, hes forced to remake drones and tech to something that will allow him to breathe against phoenixes. At this point, he has almost no vision on the map, 2 stargate pheonixes make the zerg completely blind. soO then assumes classic will probably take a third base and tech to colossus to counter the hydras mass pheonixes force, but you cant really scout to be sure as the zerg at that point with all those pheonixes, he takes a gamble and goes corruptors to counter pheonixes/colossus; he needs something to come back any ways, hes behind from all these misreads. Nah, protoss goes sentry immortal all-in anyways, with tons of built up sentry energy, tons of pheonixes to completely negate ravagers and i mean.. what are corruptors gonna do against sentry/immortal? I truly believe after the 2 stargate pheonixes, Classic couldve done any sort of 2 base push and won, or went into a third base and won any ways, he was too far ahead. All of this is because how powerful warp-prism/immortal centric 2 base all-ins are against zerg. You HAVE to cut drones early and mass ravagers ( or ling bane, depending on version, or rush hydras to defend another version..). If you just take a small risk and drone a bit too hard in the chance that they just take a late third and macro, you lose to an all-in. Every Zerg in Korea is playing from behind in ZvP because they have to blind counter well executed immortal/warp prism all-ins. I really dont know how soO was supposed to play that game. How could he know it would go this way? Protoss can do way too many things and transition on 2 base. Should he have called the bluff and kept massing drones and rushed to hydras after the first warp prism? Should he just not fear the 2 base immortal sentry all-in and just make more drones every game? Its very hard right now in ZvP to make a good decision, it usually feels like a gamble no matter what. It feels like queens need hallucination phoenix type of thing to make the match-up easier to read right now.. Ovie speed can help, until you scout the chargelots/immortal all-in that is hitting you in 10 seconds. Grats, you invested 100/100 early, delayed lair and get a 10seconds heads-up against one of the strongest all-in in the game. Bingo. I’d still like to see a prism pickup range nerf just because it’s a bit silly, I don’t actually think Immortal juggling makes a huge difference. Certainly a nerf I don’t think will make PvZ much better, it’s rare that I see a push where I feel juggling makes the difference, usually I feel the Zerg is either dead or going to crush the push before the engage and that instinct is usually on the money. There is no ‘push’, there’s a giant gameshow wheel of similar looking pushes. Plus the transition to taking a third base and playing into +2 or +3 chargelot/Immortal with storm. Zerg can’t overdrone if it’s an aggressive push, they have to time their droning/army balance on a knife edge, if it’s a fake or you just misread and they’re going to 3 base early and you underdrone you just die to a later attack. Then you have to get the composition right too, banes can do work against adepts, really not very good against forcefields. Delay for hydras and be weaker to things that hit earlier, or crank out roaches and get shredded by a later one with more immortals? It’s a tough one, the higher starting workers in Legacy really don’t seem to help in regards to Zergs scouting these out. Also ifnZerg can scout too well the matchup could flip in the other direction. But yes it is definitely a problem. Alternatively I’d like a nerf to the prism as it pertains i warp ins. At least experimented with. Perhaps a cost increase for prism warpins, maybe warpgare cooldowns increases when used with a prism, maybe warping in takes longer. See if hitting slightly less hard with slightly fewer units, or pushes having slightly less staying power through slower second waves makes them more holdable. The normal prism we have now could be restored with an upgrade as I think we Protoss kind of need it in its current form in the lategame. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
Also nerfing the cost of wapring makes the game just a mess. There are multiple nerfs possible - lower the cost of WP, make warp ins/pick up range an upgrade - disable the shield regen inside of the WP - obvious nerf the pick up range - nerf the warp in area/time(slower warp in would weaken these pushes too, easier to kill the wp) | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 07 2019 23:42 deacon.frost wrote: Juggling makes a huge difference as you can place the WP in a safe spot and save any immortal in troubles which makes them to live very long. All this while the WP is in its warping mode. If you have to decided whether to warp in units or save units it would be a different story. It's all about the WP micro, if Zerg snipes the WP the push is over, yet even ravagers with their bile attack are not enough. Also nerfing the cost of wapring makes the game just a mess. There are multiple nerfs possible - lower the cost of WP, make warp ins/pick up range an upgrade - disable the shield regen inside of the WP - obvious nerf the pick up range - nerf the warp in area/time(slower warp in would weaken these pushes too, easier to kill the wp) Juggling doesnt matter if the Zerg player executes the proper response. For example, see Classic vs Soo game 2, where Classic's massive immortal chargelot army evaporated despite warp prism support. a Warp prism + a few immortals doesnt mean anything if the rest of the army just melts (which Zerg armies are capable of doing to protoss armies if the engagement is good) This highlights the fact that the problem is not that individual units are too good vs Zerg, but, as Wombat stated, that it is too difficult for zerg to respond properly to the vast variation of builds available to protoss at that point in the game. Nerfing the warp prism would be a huge mistake. It is trying to fix the mistake of the Queen + creep nerf, which, along with the cheaper robo, is the obvious cause of the state of PvZ, by tinkering with another dynamic which has been perfectly fine all this time. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 06 2019 07:38 NbaLover wrote: Based on 2019 result and current form, we can only assume he is the "currently" the best at this very moment. Dark is a close 2nd for me. We all know he is great and consistent but god damn it I just want him to start winning something instead of all these Top 4, Top 2 finishes. Such a fun trash talking personality. Classic has been clutch but super cheesy in PvZ, I feel this could be exploited in a bo7 finals. He surely has one of the best PvP in Korea, but he didn't get to play the ones who could stop him, Stats and Zest(actually taken down by sOs who Classic proceeded to slay 3-1). Classic's PvT didn't seem convincing to me: Maru beat him quite convincingly(ok, it's Maru), Gumiho threw very hard and Inno nomatched him. Classic is among the best in Korea and had the best results in GSL this year. He is, however, venerated as being evidently better than his peers, which doesn't really seem me to be the case. | ||
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