I'm betting on Classic to win 3-1, only dropping one game after soO scouts his robo and counters his early immo push out on the map.
I think Trap wins by stopping INnoVation's tutu push in the fifth game. I really hope I'm wrong and we see INno use some fresh, planned out strategies to counter Trap instead of resorting to his weekender/ladder hero 80+% TvP push.
I'm shocked Innovation is favored in the voting. I'm sure Maru is doing a better version of Innovations TvP push against Trap a bunch of times a day to get him ready for this match. Stats already had it held with just a few less control errors. Trap isn't going to lose to that. In my opinion Innovations only shot is bringing something new which isn't really his specialty. Especially not with only 5 days to prep.
On June 05 2019 03:44 JJH777 wrote: I'm shocked Innovation is favored in the voting. I'm sure Maru is doing a better version of Innovations TvP push against Trap a bunch of times a day to get him ready for this match. Stats already had it held with just a few less control errors. Trap isn't going to lose to that. In my opinion Innovations only shot is bringing something new which isn't really his specialty. Especially not with only 5 days to prep.
Why do you think Maru is doing a better version of Innovation's push?
Innovation's two base timings are ridiculously strong recently. In fact he's been destroying maru himself with timings (obviously a different matchup, but it's obvious that innovation has a really good grasp on timings. something is really clicking for him if he regularly beats guys like stats and maru with them)
Maru's TvP shines in his early aggression + ability to macro. Innovation seems to eclipse him when it comes to these timing pushes though.
On June 05 2019 18:38 StabiloBoss20 wrote: Heart: soO Head: Classic
Heart: Not sure Head: Innovation
Trap would be awesome to see win but only if he makes it to the finals.
This is like the fifth time Classic has been the "hottest player in the world" and all the previous times he's always failed in the finals. will history repeat himself?
I wonder when Blizzard will patch this ballshit race. It's fucking crazy. Zerg has no way to scout this. There are so many options Protoss can go, it's not possible to prevent this. Also on the other hand Zerg is sooo easily scouted and so easy to prepare for P... 2 base immortal ballshit . Blizz plz
On June 05 2019 19:01 NoS-Craig wrote: Even pros lose to not scouting their own base. I know this feeling. It has happened to me a lot when I first started playing Starcraft.
Iirc someone worked out that herO lost between $160-240K in series he lost to in-base proxy gates.
The best part is they were all over the course of about a year
On June 05 2019 18:59 Pandain wrote: Literally what a joke series from classic.
you wrote "smart play" wrong
Smart play sure.
Also fucking terrible to watch
He's not playing for views and internet cool points. Dude wants to win a gsl one more time, he's gotta do what he's gotta do
Hah yeah I love this idea that you risk 35 grand to entertain a small portion of the player base. I love soO more than Classic and even I was entertained.
Classic mixes in these cannon rushes so perfectly. I swear he's like never lost a cannon rush PvZ in GSL ever, but he doesn't do it enough that you would ever try and meta game him.
Scouting this earlier wouldn't change a thing because of cannon on the lowground. This is straight ShieldBattery abuse. Zerg has nothing on this stage of the game to outdamage this shit. It's autowin for P. Thanks Blizzard. U really made this game great again. Trump style.
On June 05 2019 18:59 Pandain wrote: Literally what a joke series from classic.
you wrote "smart play" wrong
Smart play sure.
Also fucking terrible to watch
He's not playing for views and internet cool points. Dude wants to win a gsl one more time, he's gotta do what he's gotta do
Hah yeah I love this idea that you risk 35 grand to entertain a small portion of the player base. I love soO more than Classic and even I was entertained.
No one is saying that he shouldn't play to win. Just means the series sucks.
On June 05 2019 19:04 hiroshOne wrote: Scouting this earlier wouldn't change a thing because of cannon on the lowground. This is straight ShieldBattery abuse. Zerg has nothing on this stage of the game to outdamage this shit. It's autowin for P. Thanks Blizzard. U really made this game great again. Trump style.
If soO scouted that pylon earlier, he'd have spines earlier and less chance for that snowball from the batteries, no?
On June 05 2019 19:03 blooblooblahblah wrote: Classic mixes in these cannon rushes so perfectly. I swear he's like never lost a cannon rush PvZ in GSL ever, but he doesn't do it enough that you would ever try and meta game him.
Never forget the time he cannon rushed Rogue and then lost to the fake proxy hatch into actual proxy hatch
since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc,
On June 05 2019 18:59 Pandain wrote: Literally what a joke series from classic.
you wrote "smart play" wrong
Smart play sure.
Also fucking terrible to watch
He's not playing for views and internet cool points. Dude wants to win a gsl one more time, he's gotta do what he's gotta do
Hah yeah I love this idea that you risk 35 grand to entertain a small portion of the player base. I love soO more than Classic and even I was entertained.
No one is saying that he shouldn't play to win. Just means the series sucks.
To each their own, I'm entertained, I just feel bad for soO - but someones gotta lose.
On June 05 2019 19:05 Argonauta wrote: Ifr quick cheeses is the smart play, time to go back to 6 worker start? At least we will have more meaningful cheeses
On June 05 2019 19:04 hiroshOne wrote: Scouting this earlier wouldn't change a thing because of cannon on the lowground. This is straight ShieldBattery abuse. Zerg has nothing on this stage of the game to outdamage this shit. It's autowin for P. Thanks Blizzard. U really made this game great again. Trump style.
Dude you need to calm down. You've commented 3 things similar to this in the exact same thread... you have made your point.
Even if you scout it, can you actually get 3 drones to attack the cannon on the low ground properly? Just a theory, but it seemed to me that the cannon was perfectly covered with minerals and you don't have a chance to kill it with drones. Anybody knows?
This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T.
On June 05 2019 19:05 M2 wrote: since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc,
cause in 2min there are immortals with shield batterys and you not gonna kill a single unit anymore. and obviously thats gg.
On June 05 2019 19:05 M2 wrote: since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc,
Think because the Protoss usually follows up with a proxy Robo to get out an Immortal which kinda kills spines easily.
ZvP is kind of crazy right now... Both races all-inning or cheesing very very often.... I hope we get one macro game so we can see how late game looks.
On June 05 2019 19:05 M2 wrote: since I am still quite new to SC2 can someone explain me, why does the zerg feels the need to destroy the cannons, at least why so early, instead of just putting 2-3 sunkens to stop the protoss from advancing and play regular until he is able to kill the cannond&other stuff? since the placement of the cannons was not preventing soo from mining etc,
Because the protoss will use his new "base" as an unstoppable shield battery fest in the next wave of attack! If he gets ranged units there, like the highly interesting Immortal, they are almost impossible to stop with cannon and battery support.
On June 05 2019 19:06 hiroshOne wrote: This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T.
Meanwhile Dark in his latest GSL interview "12 pool if executed properly counters every build in sc2"
On June 05 2019 19:06 hiroshOne wrote: This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T.
Meanwhile Dark in his latest GSL interview "12 pool if executed properly counters every build in sc2"
On June 05 2019 19:06 hiroshOne wrote: This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T.
Yes, let's make zerg: best at preparing, best at macroing, best at all-ining, best ant cheese and best at responding. this sure will be one, well balanced game
On June 05 2019 19:10 M2 wrote: ok I got it, I thought that ravagers can hold such attacks
You need enough of them to one-shot the immortal. And some Protosses can go into void rays. And then you need plenty of queens(which are not made from the eggs).
+ don't forget one or two cannons will shoot at the units which are moving from the natural.
On June 05 2019 19:06 hiroshOne wrote: This is just bad design. Terran and Protoss have all the fun with various openings and tones of ballshit they can throw at Zerg. In the meantime Zerg is that poor little bitch, that can only wait and wonder from where the hit will come. It is sooo fucking boring. Just give Zerg some agressive options in early game or tone down the harras of P and T.
Yes, let's make zerg: best at preparing, best at macroing, best at all-ining, best ant cheese and best at responding. this sure will be one, well balanced game
Best at macroing? since the inject nerf not really.
Zerg had some cool agressions they could pull off in a series with overlord drop and it could be tailored very well to the opponent. Now that overlord dropping is all but removed the other options are much more commited.
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation
Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution.
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation
Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution.
what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy!
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation
Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution.
what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy!
I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!!
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation
Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution.
what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy!
I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!!
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation
Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution.
what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy!
I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!!
Yeah the mandatory unchangable promotion screen is the worst idea Blizzard has had about this game.
On June 05 2019 19:21 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm disappointed that there's more people talking about balance than this translation
Guy's doing his best. At the same time Blizzard is just silent which IMO doesn't help the situation. Usually they would at least announce they're looking into it while not seeing a solution.
what ? you dont like our new coop hero stetmann ? blyatsphemy!
I HATE IT WITH RAGE AND FURY!@#!$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time I finish a ladder game it gets me to the main screen with this dude and the sounds & music starts and it's getting me furious. Ahhhh!!!
Yeah the mandatory unchangable promotion screen is the worst idea Blizzard has had about this game.
I bought all 3 games right at the release date, at least the paying customers should have the option to hide them.
Trap played that so fucking well. His army movements and flanks were sick, and his transitions to colossus/tempest were almost perfect from the position he was in
the 10 scv kills slowed inno down so much.. then his pushed got stopped by the storm flank + he lost 5 widow mines to the forcefields, from then win chance was very low imo. excited for the thunderlord game
Wow what a push from Innovation, that is not easy to do.
Reminds of some random TvZ game Innovation played where he went mech and did this really methodical push across the map and killed some guy many years ago. No idea who or when this was.
The funny thing is Inno had a marine shift queued to look for that base but then it ended up seeing the other base first and then got killed by a stalker lol
On June 05 2019 20:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: The funny thing is Inno had a marine shift queued to look for that base but then it ended up seeing the other base first and then got killed by a stalker lol
Thing is by the time the marine could have reached the bottom right base, it had been up/fully saturated for way too long. Inno needed to have scouted it earlier (around the time he won that big fight and took down the 4th base)
On June 05 2019 20:43 lolfail9001 wrote: Yeah, Bogus looks like kinda dead now, easiest Ro4 of Trap's life i guess, at this rate Trap might get 2nd place in next season.
On June 05 2019 20:43 lolfail9001 wrote: Yeah, Bogus looks like kinda dead now, easiest Ro4 of Trap's life i guess, at this rate Trap might get 2nd place in next season.
On June 05 2019 21:07 kyllinghest wrote: Pretty cool series, too bad about the racial distribution for the semis, but we cant really ask Trap to throw more! GG WP to the winners.
On June 05 2019 21:10 Terra1 wrote: After 2 years (since GSL 2017 Season 2 Code S), no Terrans in the finals. I'm happy for Dark to win if he makes it in the finals.
dark should win against herO unless he chokes for n times
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck
On the other hand Trap looks like a lock
yeah Inno needs to win Super tournament or make GSL finals (or at least do well in both) to make Blizzcon in all likelihood. He's in similar situation as last year basically but last year he flopped out of both.
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms!
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck
On the other hand Trap looks like a lock
yeah Inno needs to win Super tournament or make GSL finals (or at least do well in both) to make Blizzcon in all likelihood. He's in similar situation as last year basically but last year he flopped out of both.
He also doesn't have the form to do either. I'm surprised he even made ro8 here tbh.
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
The better player at the moment always wins, but virtue of the defintion of the word better.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms!
that's almost as painful as when he lost all his medivacs against Stats or when his medivacs got trapped by Zest
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms!
I didn't say he was perfect, but his tank push timings were about as crisp as could be--what else was he supposed to do?
can we all argree that the true evil is patience ? dude won against both bogus and maru and on the other day started bombing out....like a turd...in the wind..
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck
On the other hand Trap looks like a lock
yeah Inno needs to win Super tournament or make GSL finals (or at least do well in both) to make Blizzcon in all likelihood. He's in similar situation as last year basically but last year he flopped out of both.
He also doesn't have the form to do either. I'm surprised he even made ro8 here tbh.
Yeah but Inno is the type of guy whose skill can fluctuate a lot in a few months. Too bad because he's looking pretty strong right now but I have hope he might still improve even though its looking bad for him.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms!
that's almost as painful as when he lost all his medivacs against Stats or when his medivacs got trapped by Zest
Against Zest he was gonna lose anyway and the medivacs was his last ditch effort.
Here he could have made something happen but stacked all his libs up and lost them to storm.
I'm so happy there won't be another Terran champion in Code S! I hope Trap gets to the finals, Classic is way too cheesy for my tastes recently. Dark can definitely beat herO and ruin the x/x "dream" nonsense.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Machine-level rally of liberators right into the eye of the storms!
that's almost as painful as when he lost all his medivacs against Stats or when his medivacs got trapped by Zest
Against Zest he was gonna lose anyway and the medivacs was his last ditch effort.
Here he could have made something happen but stacked all his libs up and lost them to storm.
yeah I thought he was going to get destroyed by sending his medivacs but it put him back in the game until he lost like 4 libs for almost no gain.
On June 05 2019 21:07 kyllinghest wrote: Pretty cool series, too bad about the racial distribution for the semis, but we cant really ask Trap to throw more! GG WP to the winners.
On June 05 2019 21:17 Fango wrote: Remember last time Classic won GSL and no one celebrated for him because toss was imba at the time?
What I remember was Classic winning and in a week Zest winning the global Championship tournament from all the regional heroes which overshadowed Classic so much he lost in the next RO32.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck
On the other hand Trap looks like a lock
yeah Inno needs to win Super tournament or make GSL finals (or at least do well in both) to make Blizzcon in all likelihood. He's in similar situation as last year basically but last year he flopped out of both.
He also doesn't have the form to do either. I'm surprised he even made ro8 here tbh.
Yeah but Inno is the type of guy whose skill can fluctuate a lot in a few months. Too bad because he's looking pretty strong right now but I have hope he might still improve even though its looking bad for him.
His skill usually fluctuates depending on how well terran does. Almost every time he's he's won terran has been the best race at the time.
I don't think I've even seen him even make ro8 as the sole terran until now.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive
^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural.
On June 05 2019 21:27 seemsgood wrote: trap didnt play too well either everything was pretty Ok ish from him save for game one but bogus s micro was unacceptable today as a terran
admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference.
On June 05 2019 21:27 seemsgood wrote: trap didnt play too well either everything was pretty Ok ish from him save for game one but bogus s micro was unacceptable today as a terran
admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference.
Trap was outmacroed by Inno but his control(most of the times) and his multitasking were better.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive
^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural.
Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe.
Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it.
Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage
On June 05 2019 21:27 seemsgood wrote: trap didnt play too well either everything was pretty Ok ish from him save for game one but bogus s micro was unacceptable today as a terran
admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference.
Trap was outmacroed by Inno but his control(most of the times) and his multitasking were better.
Yeah I've felt the same about his multitask. I think his decision making and strategy are actually pretty good but he sometimes plays too decisively and either gives up his timing or creates an all in situation that didn't need to happen.
Edit: In terms of micro, his splitting is still really good but he suffers because his reaction time and multitask (which seem to be pretty related) aren't Maru-level. Whenever Maru got psi-stormed, he reacted lightning fast whereas Inno was walking in and out of storms for days. That might be why Inno succeeds with his timing-based style, because it requires less multitask but more macro and tech unit usage. which play to his strengths (I think that's why his TvT is so strong). Maru on the other hand is a lot more dynamic and even though he does a lot of timings too, his defense/transitions are a lot better (he gets his third running faster it feels like).
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive
^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural.
Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe.
Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it.
Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage
hindsight is 20/20 but the reason why Inno's timings are so strong is precisely because he doesn't do those things. Looking back, I agree that he should've done what you said but it wasn't immediately obvious that that was the right choice. For a while It really did look like his timing would win the series in the last game (since the templar archives got unpowered) but it turned out to be barely too late.
Yeh, I think i'm done watching for the season, unless the planets align and Dark makes the finals.
You can't take a 'Wait and See' approach to balancing the game when you created these glaring issues in the first place without fixing them. But at this point I think Blizzard has enough problems to deal with before they even think about addressing this.
On June 05 2019 21:27 seemsgood wrote: trap didnt play too well either everything was pretty Ok ish from him save for game one but bogus s micro was unacceptable today as a terran
admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive
^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural.
Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe.
Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it.
Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage
its because dude never really wanted to play long game against P and harrassing really hurt his timing all in so his style s better suited for small map or shitty spawn cobalt . i dont know but bogus s play in the later stage of the game feels pretty reluctant to me maru and serral just let the opponent throws whatever he wants and react to it
On June 05 2019 21:27 seemsgood wrote: trap didnt play too well either everything was pretty Ok ish from him save for game one but bogus s micro was unacceptable today as a terran
admittedly his storm dodging was just bad. I'm watching Maru vs Trap to see what Inno did wrong and I'll admit Maru's reaction time and multitask are a lot better. His defense against warp prism in particular was a lot better. Inno always sent his whole army back whereas Maru just had enough units and micro'd them well enough to deal with harass. In fairness, Trap harassed Inno a lot more intensely than he did against Maruv so that probably made a difference.
On June 05 2019 21:13 renaissanceMAN wrote: Called it 4 days ago:
On June 02 2019 09:32 renaissanceMAN wrote: Classic beats soO, Trap beats Inno, Parting beats Hurricane and Dark beats herO. Trap > Classic, Parting > Dark with Trap taking the whole thing.
Into executed like a machine and still couldn't beat an arguably lesser player.
Hope that doesn't happen. I'm biased but to me Inno looked like the better player but made really sloppy mistakes that costed him
Haven't seen everything yet but IMO Inno was not the better player today. Though it was close. As was this series. Definitely not a series that can be blamed on the "protoss too stronk and imba"-train
I just feel like Trap won on the back of prism harrass and the ninja base while Inno won by outmacroing and outmicroing which I find more impressive
^ This, Inno would be pounding on his front door taking expansions and being defended from taking everything by just enough while trap sent a single warp prism into his main or natural.
Maybe that is just me but when a single warp prism kills/ cripples you, you are not playing well. Specially multiple times in a row. Get a turret and a cyclone and voilà, you are safe.
Edit: There is a reason people don't try this as much vs Maru or Serral. They don't take damage and it's almost never worth it.
Edit2: Look how well Trap defendend most of the drops from Inno. Almost never took damage
its because dude never really wanted to play long game against P and harrassing really hurt his timing all in so his style s better suited for small map or shitty spawn cobalt . i dont know but bogus s play in the later stage of the game feels pretty reluctant to me maru and serral just let the opponent throws whatever he wants and react to it
In that case do a proper all-in, take most of the SCVs and let Trap go into a basetrade. This was a push intended to kill Protoss while the Protoss couldn't kill your production(when your production isn't supporting the push). It seems to be too indecisive.
I get where you aim, I just think that under the current circumstances you have to take the SCVs or prepare defense against a drop. You can't do a half baked solution nowadays. But maybe I'm too harsh on Terrans, in the end I am a very bad Terran. So I may see it wrong
On June 05 2019 21:53 DreamlnCode wrote: Yeh, I think i'm done watching for the season, unless the planets align and Dark makes the finals.
You can't take a 'Wait and See' approach to balancing the game when you created these glaring issues in the first place without fixing them. But at this point I think Blizzard has enough problems to deal with before they even think about addressing this.
Good, we don't really want a cry baby anyways. Balance is fine, terran just need to learn to git gud
I'm just glad we can finally enjoy a GSL final without a Terran in it.
As long as we get to see dark in the final, it's all good. (unless he does his usual chokejob)
On June 05 2019 21:53 DreamlnCode wrote: Yeh, I think i'm done watching for the season, unless the planets align and Dark makes the finals.
You can't take a 'Wait and See' approach to balancing the game when you created these glaring issues in the first place without fixing them. But at this point I think Blizzard has enough problems to deal with before they even think about addressing this.
Good, we don't really want a cry baby anyways. Balance is fine, terran just need to learn to git gud
I'm just glad we can finally enjoy a GSL final without a Terran in it.
As long as we get to see dark in the final, it's all good. (unless he does his usual chokejob)
ha, much english, very clear.
You'd have to be blind to not see a current problem in all match-ups, but of course it's more comforting to blame a single race.
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck
What will suck more is that we are probably getting 5/8 Protoss at Blizzcon. Dark and soO are locked in, but for another Zerg to do it they would probably need to win Season 3 or get a miracle run in the remaining tournaments. Gumiho might get surpassed by Parting soon, and then he and Inno will really need something special to get in too.
Inno v Trap was super close, could have gone either way. Warp prism looking super strong as always and the harass really dictated the series. Terran really can't afford to let those in and get a full warp in round. Feel like in general Terran doesn't have the leeway to make as many mistakes as protoss.
On June 05 2019 21:08 Anc13nt wrote: if Inno doesn't make Blizzcon again that would suck
What will suck more is that we are probably getting 5/8 Protoss at Blizzcon. Dark and soO are locked in, but for another Zerg to do it they would probably need to win Season 3 or get a miracle run in the remaining tournaments. Gumiho might get surpassed by Parting soon, and then he and Inno will really need something special to get in too.
Either Hurricane or PartinG will necessarily surpass Gumiho, but he could still be in a good spot to make BlizzCon if he puts up good results again.
GSL sent four Protoss already in 2016 and 2018, and Korean Protoss were always the relative majority at BlizzCon with the only exceptions being 2017(GSL sent two) and 2013(there were eight Terran).
Cobalt is the silliest map Ive ever seen, hoping someone makes a map with multiple ledges that fit one or two siege tanks hidden by fog and call it Reverse Cobalt, god thats a garbage map, anyways, really sad for Inno, he played really well today. I cant see Trap ever beating Classic with this level of play, at least its fine if Classic wins it all, he is a great player.
I would like to blame balance, because i think Immortals and prisms are a bit op, but why on earth is soO not researching overlord speed? Hes so bad with the scouting almost every time with his slowass overlords...
I dont know, somehow I dont think that the protosses won these two particular series based on imbalances, in my opinion they won by abusing the shit that are supposed to be abused by protosses to win by design.
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners.
Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect.
Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners.
Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect.
Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm
Basically everyone says Classic is the best player atm. Hes the favorite to win the tournament....
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners.
Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect.
Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm
Basically everyone says Classic is the best player atm. Hes the favorite to win the tournament....
On June 06 2019 02:09 kajtarp wrote: I would like to blame balance, because i think Immortals and prisms are a bit op, but why on earth is soO not researching overlord speed? Hes so bad with the scouting almost every time with his slowass overlords...
You should go watch In-Dept episode(s) about robo opening vs zerg, they talked a lot about the pro and cons of getting overlord speed. Basically the con was that the 100 gas can in certain scenario make it impossible to defend some attack so maybe it's better to have sub part scouting but make a guts call with what you saw than invest 100 gas to scout what's gonna kill you.
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners.
Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect.
Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm
To be honest, I'm not convinced that Classic is the best player in Korea; he is the most consistent and he is having the best results, for sure.
On June 06 2019 02:09 kajtarp wrote: I would like to blame balance, because i think Immortals and prisms are a bit op, but why on earth is soO not researching overlord speed? Hes so bad with the scouting almost every time with his slowass overlords...
You should go watch In-Dept episode(s) about robo opening vs zerg, they talked a lot about the pro and cons of getting overlord speed. Basically the con was that the 100 gas can in certain scenario make it impossible to defend some attack so maybe it's better to have sub part scouting but make a guts call with what you saw than invest 100 gas to scout what's gonna kill you.
They explained it with way more details than me
I think NoRegret said ‘you just get to see what is about to kill you a little before it does’ or something like that.
Some of the speedier timings hit before you can get your speed ovies in and react to that information, as you say.
It definitely does look useful for sniffing out some other builds or ones that hit a bit later, as shown in some other games from that In Depth episode.
Perhaps Zergs will figure out some kind of scouting flow chart that works for them, I can’t really figure out a way for the. To reliably do it though. I’d personally like to see slightly faster base speed for overlords, not by a huge amount but how many times do they just miss the scout barely?
Zerg need a stock unit that isn’t hard countered by Protoss as hard in that phase of the game.
I mean they don’t need anything, those are my personal preferences but I think PvZ is by a distance the worst matchup in the game because of hard counters.
It’s a matchup where (almost always) Protoss tries to disguise or fake out some funky all in, then the Zerg has to figure a response, if they pick wrong they die pretty hard, if they pick right they usually win pretty hard.
Banes can shred Protoss melee, but are terrible if it’s actually a sentry heavy push, Roaches do well enough against melee but get shredded by Immortals. Hydras are decent but you usually don’t have enough units if it’s a real early push. But if you misread and don’t tech to hydras and go roach heavy Immortals destroy you.
Much respect to Classic for some really crisp and smart builds for sure, but the matchup really isn’t in a satisfying place for me as a viewer. It usually comes down to a single push, and I’m not a soothsayer but I’ve watched enough Starcraft to know before the push even hits who is going to win, about 90% of the time.
On June 06 2019 02:09 kajtarp wrote: I would like to blame balance, because i think Immortals and prisms are a bit op, but why on earth is soO not researching overlord speed? Hes so bad with the scouting almost every time with his slowass overlords...
You should go watch In-Dept episode(s) about robo opening vs zerg, they talked a lot about the pro and cons of getting overlord speed. Basically the con was that the 100 gas can in certain scenario make it impossible to defend some attack so maybe it's better to have sub part scouting but make a guts call with what you saw than invest 100 gas to scout what's gonna kill you.
They explained it with way more details than me
I think NoRegret said ‘you just get to see what is about to kill you a little before it does’ or something like that.
Some of the speedier timings hit before you can get your speed ovies in and react to that information, as you say.
It definitely does look useful for sniffing out some other builds or ones that hit a bit later, as shown in some other games from that In Depth episode.
Perhaps Zergs will figure out some kind of scouting flow chart that works for them, I can’t really figure out a way for the. To reliably do it though. I’d personally like to see slightly faster base speed for overlords, not by a huge amount but how many times do they just miss the scout barely?
Zerg need a stock unit that isn’t hard countered by Protoss as hard in that phase of the game.
I mean they don’t need anything, those are my personal preferences but I think PvZ is by a distance the worst matchup in the game because of hard counters.
It’s a matchup where (almost always) Protoss tries to disguise or fake out some funky all in, then the Zerg has to figure a response, if they pick wrong they die pretty hard, if they pick right they usually win pretty hard.
Banes can shred Protoss melee, but are terrible if it’s actually a sentry heavy push, Roaches do well enough against melee but get shredded by Immortals. Hydras are decent but you usually don’t have enough units if it’s a real early push. But if you misread and don’t tech to hydras and go roach heavy Immortals destroy you.
Much respect to Classic for some really crisp and smart builds for sure, but the matchup really isn’t in a satisfying place for me as a viewer. It usually comes down to a single push, and I’m not a soothsayer but I’ve watched enough Starcraft to know before the push even hits who is going to win, about 90% of the time.
The matchup was much more enjoyable before 2019(Nyduses first and Immortal pushes this last patch made TvZ a cheese/all in fest).
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners.
Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect.
Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm
To be honest, I'm not convinced that Classic is the best player in Korea; he is the most consistent and he is having the best results, for sure.
Based on 2019 result and current form, we can only assume he is the "currently" the best at this very moment.
Dark is a close 2nd for me. We all know he is great and consistent but god damn it I just want him to start winning something instead of all these Top 4, Top 2 finishes. Such a fun trash talking personality.
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
Would be nice yeah. Classic against soO wasn’t enjoyable, but I found it an admirable series for the reasons you said. Trap Inno were pretty good macro PvT games and pretty back and forth too
Trap’s hold and counter was great play in game 5, I would have brought my prism and those units back to hold, but he made a great call, held narrowly and did a lot of counter damage.
I’m not sure if people are unaware at this stage or just wilfully ignore how hard Protoss lategame armies are to control and split in PvT, but yeah the chats will just be full of ‘A move Protoss’
On June 06 2019 02:09 kajtarp wrote: I would like to blame balance, because i think Immortals and prisms are a bit op, but why on earth is soO not researching overlord speed? Hes so bad with the scouting almost every time with his slowass overlords...
You should go watch In-Dept episode(s) about robo opening vs zerg, they talked a lot about the pro and cons of getting overlord speed. Basically the con was that the 100 gas can in certain scenario make it impossible to defend some attack so maybe it's better to have sub part scouting but make a guts call with what you saw than invest 100 gas to scout what's gonna kill you.
They explained it with way more details than me
I think NoRegret said ‘you just get to see what is about to kill you a little before it does’ or something like that.
Some of the speedier timings hit before you can get your speed ovies in and react to that information, as you say.
It definitely does look useful for sniffing out some other builds or ones that hit a bit later, as shown in some other games from that In Depth episode.
Perhaps Zergs will figure out some kind of scouting flow chart that works for them, I can’t really figure out a way for the. To reliably do it though. I’d personally like to see slightly faster base speed for overlords, not by a huge amount but how many times do they just miss the scout barely?
Zerg need a stock unit that isn’t hard countered by Protoss as hard in that phase of the game.
I mean they don’t need anything, those are my personal preferences but I think PvZ is by a distance the worst matchup in the game because of hard counters.
It’s a matchup where (almost always) Protoss tries to disguise or fake out some funky all in, then the Zerg has to figure a response, if they pick wrong they die pretty hard, if they pick right they usually win pretty hard.
Banes can shred Protoss melee, but are terrible if it’s actually a sentry heavy push, Roaches do well enough against melee but get shredded by Immortals. Hydras are decent but you usually don’t have enough units if it’s a real early push. But if you misread and don’t tech to hydras and go roach heavy Immortals destroy you.
Much respect to Classic for some really crisp and smart builds for sure, but the matchup really isn’t in a satisfying place for me as a viewer. It usually comes down to a single push, and I’m not a soothsayer but I’ve watched enough Starcraft to know before the push even hits who is going to win, about 90% of the time.
The matchup was much more enjoyable before 2019(Nyduses first and Immortal pushes this last patch made TvZ a cheese/all in fest).
It absolutely sucks to my tastes anyway, I think PvZ on balance has been my most disliked matchup for most of SC2, bar some small periods.
I’ve only seen real top level games of the game last patch, it many aside from that, actually quite liked the state of the matchup there. Ok so maybe Serral v Stats etc are a small sample size where I haven’t maybe seen games below that level and what they looked like, seemed pretty decent. Maybe it lead to many terrible games too in other tournies I haven’t seen.
Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
The funniest thing that is being said is that inno played perfectly. He was way cleaner in those alphaX and olimoleague games against classic (5-1) and trap (3-1). I guess online inno is beyond perfect now
On June 06 2019 09:15 sudete wrote: The funniest thing that is being said is that inno played perfectly. He was way cleaner in those alphaX and olimoleague games against classic (5-1) and trap (3-1). I guess online inno is beyond perfect now
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players.
Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall.
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players.
Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall.
Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine.
FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department.
Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced.
If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible.
It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers)
Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong?
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Zerg didn't do well in GSL, mostly because the area where they were strong were really short, and didn't last enough for a GSL.
For example, Rogue had good results with hydras, but they split them again before he could reach GSL finals.
Same with drop overlord, they nerfed it a few days before the semi-final of the GSL, an both zerg were eliminated. Nyndus nerf happenned really fast, etc...
On the meantime, it took age to have the proxy reaper nerf, and Byun eliminated Dark twice during this area. Could he have done that without reapers ? I doubt it.
After, they reworked tanks, and started the Innovation area. Also TY, and gumiho did great this time, actually the best result of their carrer, as they never won a premier tournament before.
And after, Maru domination started, and Maru could enjoyed the mass raven enough to win a GSL. It got nerfed, but he got buffs to other things. And the strange part is where was Maru when Byun, Innovation, gumiho were winning if he were that good ?
It looks like that some Terran have some prefered playstyle and depending on the meta/balance one different terran performed. But zerg on the other side have never got a period of time long enough where they can enjoy "to be OP", like T did.
Also there is the Serral effect, where you see balance team nerfing zerg in order to lower the gap between Serral and other players in the foreigner scene.
So sure, when the best T Serral usually fight is uthermal or special, or the best P protoss Neeb or showtime, nerfing zerg doesn't seem to affect much Serral results.
But when Dark/soo fight Innovation/Maru, or Classic/Stats, it's way different, and it makes kor Zerg impossible to compete vs P/T in korea because they're no such a skill gap like between Serral and the foreigners players.
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Zerg didn't do well in GSL, mostly because the area where they were strong were really short, and didn't last enough for a GSL.
For example, Rogue had good results with hydras, but they split them again before he could reach GSL finals.
Same with drop overlord, they nerfed it a few days before the semi-final of the GSL, an both zerg were eliminated. Nyndus nerf happenned really fast, etc...
On the meantime, it took age to have the proxy reaper nerf, and Byun eliminated Dark twice during this area. Could he have done that without reapers ? I doubt it.
After, they reworked tanks, and started the Innovation area. Also TY, and gumiho did great this time, actually the best result of their carrer, as they never won a premier tournament before.
And after, Maru domination started, and Maru could enjoyed the mass raven enough to win a GSL. It got nerfed, but he got buffs to other things. And the strange part is where was Maru when Byun, Innovation, gumiho were winning if he were that good ?
It looks like that some Terran have some prefered playstyle and depending on the meta/balance one different terran performed. But zerg on the other side have never got a period of time long enough where they can enjoy "to be OP", like T did.
Also there is the Serral effect, where you see balance team nerfing zerg in order to lower the gap between Serral and other players in the foreigner scene.
So sure, when the best T Serral usually fight is uthermal or special, or the best P protoss Neeb or showtime, nerfing zerg doesn't seem to affect much Serral results.
But when Dark/soo fight Innovation/Maru, or Classic/Stats, it's way different, and it makes kor Zerg impossible to compete vs P/T in korea because they're no such a skill gap like between Serral and the foreigners players.
Well there was the GGlord/ Infestor times when Zerg was bonkers.
Also I don't think Blizz nerfs anything to keep Serral in line. The Nydus nerf was because it was a no skill gg timing attack and was absotely the right call.
We are still waiting for Blizz to address the WP+Immo problem. Haven't heard anything from the balance team in ages. Blizz is to busy commiting suicide right now apparently
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players.
Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall.
Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine.
FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department.
Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced.
If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible.
It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers)
Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong?
In theory yes, if Korea had a more vibrant scene with new blood and new talent coming through. Some people will say that and be wrong and would have you think all these long standing title winning Protoss players with good pro league records all suck and Protoss their opponents.
Distribution isn’t that terrible at the Ro32 anyway, but for it to be good down the line Terrans really need their ‘big 4’ to all be in shape at the same time, which never seems to happen, or have some of the next tier of Terrans have really good runs and a few of the big guys to be in shape.
There’s nothing that really stands out reading over the results and having watched the games as crazy, Patience coming out first and Rogue and Ty losing first on paper yeah but they seemed reasonably watching how everyone played on the day.
Protoss are a daunting gauntlet to run for sure though, it’s also the most varied race in styles by a distance. Cure is kind of like Maru, just a bit worse (who isn’t?), Patience does not play like Stats but worse, it’s like playing two totally different players. So groups with multiple Protoss become really difficult to prep for.
PvZ seems to have the most actual issues, or at least has the most underwhelming matches, but I don’t see how you fix those without making Zerg just straight up too strong. Classic has been winning vZs these last two seasons vs good Zergs with really tight prepped builds to the maps laid out in advance. If Zergs can more reliably play reactively against the tightest prepped builds, or even worse be blindly safe to most, then the less tight versions that don’t cut every corner you see in weekenders they’ll absolutely crush those.
I’d absolutely like things to be more competitive and have Zergs break their GSL duck for sure, I’m just wary of making them too outright strong.
On June 06 2019 22:28 Moonerz wrote: One of the weirdest things to me is that Zest and Stats arguably two of the best Toss to ever do it haven't made any results this year (in Korea).
Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance.
Exactly. As much as I think that Protoss is the leading race in korea by huge margin, there is a little amount of offline matches to take considerations from.I miss the days of SSL,GSL,Proleague and Kespa Cup Starcraft needs more international tournaments, but there's no way Blizz is gonna pump more money into the scene. I'd rather have smaller Blizzcon prizepool and more events...
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Zerg didn't do well in GSL, mostly because the area where they were strong were really short, and didn't last enough for a GSL.
For example, Rogue had good results with hydras, but they split them again before he could reach GSL finals.
Same with drop overlord, they nerfed it a few days before the semi-final of the GSL, an both zerg were eliminated. Nyndus nerf happenned really fast, etc...
On the meantime, it took age to have the proxy reaper nerf, and Byun eliminated Dark twice during this area. Could he have done that without reapers ? I doubt it.
After, they reworked tanks, and started the Innovation area. Also TY, and gumiho did great this time, actually the best result of their carrer, as they never won a premier tournament before.
And after, Maru domination started, and Maru could enjoyed the mass raven enough to win a GSL. It got nerfed, but he got buffs to other things. And the strange part is where was Maru when Byun, Innovation, gumiho were winning if he were that good ?
It looks like that some Terran have some prefered playstyle and depending on the meta/balance one different terran performed. But zerg on the other side have never got a period of time long enough where they can enjoy "to be OP", like T did.
Also there is the Serral effect, where you see balance team nerfing zerg in order to lower the gap between Serral and other players in the foreigner scene.
So sure, when the best T Serral usually fight is uthermal or special, or the best P protoss Neeb or showtime, nerfing zerg doesn't seem to affect much Serral results.
But when Dark/soo fight Innovation/Maru, or Classic/Stats, it's way different, and it makes kor Zerg impossible to compete vs P/T in korea because they're no such a skill gap like between Serral and the foreigners players.
On June 06 2019 22:28 Moonerz wrote: One of the weirdest things to me is that Zest and Stats arguably two of the best Toss to ever do it haven't made any results this year (in Korea).
Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance.
Stats got 2nd place at IEM? And this season the group of death. Also it seems the cheesy toss is on a rise more than standard toss.
Not sure what happened to Zest, maybe he stopped taking SC2 seriously? But his fall from the top is a long term thing now.
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players.
Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall.
Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine.
FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department.
Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced.
If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible.
It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers)
Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong?
In theory yes, if Korea had a more vibrant scene with new blood and new talent coming through. Some people will say that and be wrong and would have you think all these long standing title winning Protoss players with good pro league records all suck and Protoss their opponents.
Distribution isn’t that terrible at the Ro32 anyway, but for it to be good down the line Terrans really need their ‘big 4’ to all be in shape at the same time, which never seems to happen, or have some of the next tier of Terrans have really good runs and a few of the big guys to be in shape.
There’s nothing that really stands out reading over the results and having watched the games as crazy, Patience coming out first and Rogue and Ty losing first on paper yeah but they seemed reasonably watching how everyone played on the day.
Protoss are a daunting gauntlet to run for sure though, it’s also the most varied race in styles by a distance. Cure is kind of like Maru, just a bit worse (who isn’t?), Patience does not play like Stats but worse, it’s like playing two totally different players. So groups with multiple Protoss become really difficult to prep for.
PvZ seems to have the most actual issues, or at least has the most underwhelming matches, but I don’t see how you fix those without making Zerg just straight up too strong. Classic has been winning vZs these last two seasons vs good Zergs with really tight prepped builds to the maps laid out in advance. If Zergs can more reliably play reactively against the tightest prepped builds, or even worse be blindly safe to most, then the less tight versions that don’t cut every corner you see in weekenders they’ll absolutely crush those.
I’d absolutely like things to be more competitive and have Zergs break their GSL duck for sure, I’m just wary of making them too outright strong.
The fact that ZErgs in Korea are punished because of WCS split - that's accepted.
The issue is when good players are defeated by players who are worse and it's not just one loss. It was seen at IEM. It was seen at ST. It was seen at Code S. Yes, it doesn't seem as Protoss being OP but at the same time it appears as it's mostly Protoss who gets the benefit. So there is an issue, the question is how to fix and where it is.
And Terran numbers are not good at any competition. Sure, Maru may have fallen asleep on his money, but TY? Gumi? Inno? Every Terran gone bad at the same time? What a coincidence (I don't believe in coincidence that much)
On June 06 2019 22:28 Moonerz wrote: One of the weirdest things to me is that Zest and Stats arguably two of the best Toss to ever do it haven't made any results this year (in Korea).
Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance.
Stats got 2nd place at IEM? And this season the group of death. Also it seems the cheesy toss is on a rise more than standard toss.
Not sure what happened to Zest, maybe he stopped taking SC2 seriously? But his fall from the top is a long term thing now.
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players.
Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall.
Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine.
FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department.
Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced.
If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible.
It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers)
Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong?
In theory yes, if Korea had a more vibrant scene with new blood and new talent coming through. Some people will say that and be wrong and would have you think all these long standing title winning Protoss players with good pro league records all suck and Protoss their opponents.
Distribution isn’t that terrible at the Ro32 anyway, but for it to be good down the line Terrans really need their ‘big 4’ to all be in shape at the same time, which never seems to happen, or have some of the next tier of Terrans have really good runs and a few of the big guys to be in shape.
There’s nothing that really stands out reading over the results and having watched the games as crazy, Patience coming out first and Rogue and Ty losing first on paper yeah but they seemed reasonably watching how everyone played on the day.
Protoss are a daunting gauntlet to run for sure though, it’s also the most varied race in styles by a distance. Cure is kind of like Maru, just a bit worse (who isn’t?), Patience does not play like Stats but worse, it’s like playing two totally different players. So groups with multiple Protoss become really difficult to prep for.
PvZ seems to have the most actual issues, or at least has the most underwhelming matches, but I don’t see how you fix those without making Zerg just straight up too strong. Classic has been winning vZs these last two seasons vs good Zergs with really tight prepped builds to the maps laid out in advance. If Zergs can more reliably play reactively against the tightest prepped builds, or even worse be blindly safe to most, then the less tight versions that don’t cut every corner you see in weekenders they’ll absolutely crush those.
I’d absolutely like things to be more competitive and have Zergs break their GSL duck for sure, I’m just wary of making them too outright strong.
The fact that ZErgs in Korea are punished because of WCS split - that's accepted.
The issue is when good players are defeated by players who are worse and it's not just one loss. It was seen at IEM. It was seen at ST. It was seen at Code S. Yes, it doesn't seem as Protoss being OP but at the same time it appears as it's mostly Protoss who gets the benefit. So there is an issue, the question is how to fix and where it is.
And Terran numbers are not good at any competition. Sure, Maru may have fallen asleep on his money, but TY? Gumi? Inno? Every Terran gone bad at the same time? What a coincidence (I don't believe in coincidence that much)
2/2 from Korea at WESG were Terran, WCS distribution isn’t that bad. Terran winning GSL isn’t that bad either.
Protoss can lose Zest, sOs, Dear and Stats before the playoff bracket and still be doing pretty well for themselves, Terran does not have a similar luxury
Without most of their current big 4 firing on all cylinders in the same season, or players below that stepping up, or a mix of the two I don’t see Terrans having much luck on the distribution side of things.
On June 07 2019 07:33 Need wrote: Jesus Christ that soO vs Classic series... Protoss is just bullying Zerg at this point. Did Classic even take a third in the entire series?
He probably doesn’t want to be bullied himself
I don’t really know, my instincts are that playing for a third base and into a straight macro game is really not that good for them now, but we haven’t seen much of that I suppose.
We’re not even seeing people faking these timings while secretly going for a 3 base more conventional reactive macro style
Well whether or not late game favours protoss or zerg is kinda irrelevant if robo first immortal attacks have a 65%-70% win rate.Even if the late game was favoured by 55% for protoss, it's just +EV to go for the build with the higher win percentage.
On June 06 2019 22:28 Moonerz wrote: One of the weirdest things to me is that Zest and Stats arguably two of the best Toss to ever do it haven't made any results this year (in Korea).
Without a league like Proleague giving us constant games it is so hard to get an accurate picture of what is really going on in terms of balance.
Stats got 2nd place at IEM? And this season the group of death. Also it seems the cheesy toss is on a rise more than standard toss.
Not sure what happened to Zest, maybe he stopped taking SC2 seriously? But his fall from the top is a long term thing now.
On June 06 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:
On June 06 2019 16:21 deacon.frost wrote:
On June 06 2019 14:42 Anc13nt wrote:
On June 06 2019 13:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On June 06 2019 08:41 Anc13nt wrote: Honestly, I don't think Protoss is that op. It's more like Zerg and Protoss are strong while Terran is bad. Terran was great in 2017 but PvT has been bad for Terran since 2018. Zerg never did well in GSL so I wouldn't blame poor Zerg performance purely on balance. If Maru didn't exist, Terran would be so bad it's hilarious whereas Protoss without Stats and Zerg without Dark would suffer badly but would still have a few top players.
Why do you think Zerg is strong? If you look solely at this GSL and other recent results PvZ seems harder for zerg than PvT is for terran.
honestly, I'm mainly basing it off of Aligulac stats. Korean zerg have been historically at GSL so I don't think it's the best indication of zerg doing bad. In WESG and IEM they are still doing fine. Also, while WCS is not as competitive, I think foreign zerg like Reynor and Serral are at a comparable skill level with other Korean zerg so if you include the foreigners into the discussion of racial balance, the zerg race gets the biggest boost. Rogue might have fallen off but there's still Dark, soO and Serral (maybe also Reynor) doing very well. Whereas for terran only top 10 player I'd argue is Maru. Gumiho, TY and Inno are still good but i'm reluctant to consider them as top 10 players.
Overall, I admit Zerg is only doing ok whereas Protoss is doing the best so I will walk back on saying both Zerg and Protoss are strong. I still believe the balance isn't much worse than 2017 when terran dominated or in 2018 when zerg seemed to be the best race overall.
Yeah, when the qualifiers have mostly zergs then it looks like zergs are doing fine(WESG). The next time we can use some Zerg weekly - look, Zerg won, everything's fine.
FYI The last international result with Koreans allowed made Reynor place 29-36 at Katowice. He's not exactly the good Zerg you're looking for in the terms of comparison to Koreans considering soO won the whole thing and how far Dark & Solar get. Maybe in the future when he's more stable in the result department.
Zerg is underrepresented in the Korean competition for more than 2 seasons. And the Terrans were underrepresented recently too but since MAru was winning Code S titles nobody cared. The game isn't balanced, if you don't play enough PvT the numbers can pretend they're balanced.
If you go from the premise the game is balanced then there should be equal-ish balance of players. And sorry not sorry, but if you would name to many people some of the RO16 Protosses and over whom they advanced many people would tell you it's impossible.
It's not just maps(previous map pool was very anti-terran), it's the game desibgn and balance. Aligulac isn't allpowerful tool. And you're rather to dismiss good players as being bad and bad players as miraculously getting good than going into - something is wrong? Seriously? Even when you look at the state of the current PvZ? (also WCS doesn't have that good Protosses so it may shift the global numbers)
Edit> Also I don't know what were Zergs historically at GSL, but let me introduce to soO with his multiple final appearances in a row which was just quite recently beaten by Maru. It held for years... He is zerg. So I guess historically they were strong?
In theory yes, if Korea had a more vibrant scene with new blood and new talent coming through. Some people will say that and be wrong and would have you think all these long standing title winning Protoss players with good pro league records all suck and Protoss their opponents.
Distribution isn’t that terrible at the Ro32 anyway, but for it to be good down the line Terrans really need their ‘big 4’ to all be in shape at the same time, which never seems to happen, or have some of the next tier of Terrans have really good runs and a few of the big guys to be in shape.
There’s nothing that really stands out reading over the results and having watched the games as crazy, Patience coming out first and Rogue and Ty losing first on paper yeah but they seemed reasonably watching how everyone played on the day.
Protoss are a daunting gauntlet to run for sure though, it’s also the most varied race in styles by a distance. Cure is kind of like Maru, just a bit worse (who isn’t?), Patience does not play like Stats but worse, it’s like playing two totally different players. So groups with multiple Protoss become really difficult to prep for.
PvZ seems to have the most actual issues, or at least has the most underwhelming matches, but I don’t see how you fix those without making Zerg just straight up too strong. Classic has been winning vZs these last two seasons vs good Zergs with really tight prepped builds to the maps laid out in advance. If Zergs can more reliably play reactively against the tightest prepped builds, or even worse be blindly safe to most, then the less tight versions that don’t cut every corner you see in weekenders they’ll absolutely crush those.
I’d absolutely like things to be more competitive and have Zergs break their GSL duck for sure, I’m just wary of making them too outright strong.
The fact that ZErgs in Korea are punished because of WCS split - that's accepted.
The issue is when good players are defeated by players who are worse and it's not just one loss. It was seen at IEM. It was seen at ST. It was seen at Code S. Yes, it doesn't seem as Protoss being OP but at the same time it appears as it's mostly Protoss who gets the benefit. So there is an issue, the question is how to fix and where it is.
And Terran numbers are not good at any competition. Sure, Maru may have fallen asleep on his money, but TY? Gumi? Inno? Every Terran gone bad at the same time? What a coincidence (I don't believe in coincidence that much)
2/2 from Korea at WESG were Terran, WCS distribution isn’t that bad. Terran winning GSL isn’t that bad either.
Protoss can lose Zest, sOs, Dear and Stats before the playoff bracket and still be doing pretty well for themselves, Terran does not have a similar luxury
Without most of their current big 4 firing on all cylinders in the same season, or players below that stepping up, or a mix of the two I don’t see Terrans having much luck on the distribution side of things.
You do realize the Korean qualifier for WESG was November 2018, do you? And we're back to "Mvp was winning during BL/infestor, everything is fine" counter argument? AGAIN?
Edit> and yes, Korean qualifier Nov2018, Tournament March2019. Think about it.
To me, the most frustrating game in the Classic vs soO series was the game Classic went warp prism harass opening on a build that looks to be a fast Immortal push, into two stargates mass phenixes ( At this point soO expects immortal rush, so he spread ovies for vision, cuts drone count low to make some roaches and ravagers to defend all-in, slows down queen production, delays lair..)
Then the 2 stargate pheonix does insane damage obviously, renders ravagers useless and can kill them for free, so soO cant really invest in more ravagers, making more spores destroys his already low drone count, he loses ovies and more drones to pheonixes, hes forced to remake drones and tech to something that will allow him to breathe against phoenixes.
At this point, he has almost no vision on the map, 2 stargate pheonixes make the zerg completely blind. soO then assumes classic will probably take a third base and tech to colossus to counter the hydras mass pheonixes force, but you cant really scout to be sure as the zerg at that point with all those pheonixes, he takes a gamble and goes corruptors to counter pheonixes/colossus; he needs something to come back any ways, hes behind from all these misreads.
Nah, protoss goes sentry immortal all-in anyways, with tons of built up sentry energy, tons of pheonixes to completely negate ravagers and i mean.. what are corruptors gonna do against sentry/immortal?
I truly believe after the 2 stargate pheonixes, Classic couldve done any sort of 2 base push and won, or went into a third base and won any ways, he was too far ahead.
All of this is because how powerful warp-prism/immortal centric 2 base all-ins are against zerg. You HAVE to cut drones early and mass ravagers ( or ling bane, depending on version, or rush hydras to defend another version..). If you just take a small risk and drone a bit too hard in the chance that they just take a late third and macro, you lose to an all-in.
Every Zerg in Korea is playing from behind in ZvP because they have to blind counter well executed immortal/warp prism all-ins.
I really dont know how soO was supposed to play that game. How could he know it would go this way? Protoss can do way too many things and transition on 2 base. Should he have called the bluff and kept massing drones and rushed to hydras after the first warp prism? Should he just not fear the 2 base immortal sentry all-in and just make more drones every game?
Its very hard right now in ZvP to make a good decision, it usually feels like a gamble no matter what. It feels like queens need hallucination phoenix type of thing to make the match-up easier to read right now.. Ovie speed can help, until you scout the chargelots/immortal all-in that is hitting you in 10 seconds. Grats, you invested 100/100 early, delayed lair and get a 10seconds heads-up against one of the strongest all-in in the game.
On June 07 2019 20:58 Snakestyle11 wrote: To me, the most frustrating game in the Classic vs soO series was the game Classic went warp prism harass opening on a build that looks to be a fast Immortal push, into two stargates mass phenixes ( At this point soO expects immortal rush, so he spread ovies for vision, cuts drone count low to make some roaches and ravagers to defend all-in, slows down queen production, delays lair..)
Then the 2 stargate pheonix does insane damage obviously, renders ravagers useless and can kill them for free, so soO cant really invest in more ravagers, making more spores destroys his already low drone count, he loses ovies and more drones to pheonixes, hes forced to remake drones and tech to something that will allow him to breathe against phoenixes.
At this point, he has almost no vision on the map, 2 stargate pheonixes make the zerg completely blind. soO then assumes classic will probably take a third base and tech to colossus to counter the hydras mass pheonixes force, but you cant really scout to be sure as the zerg at that point with all those pheonixes, he takes a gamble and goes corruptors to counter pheonixes/colossus; he needs something to come back any ways, hes behind from all these misreads.
Nah, protoss goes sentry immortal all-in anyways, with tons of built up sentry energy, tons of pheonixes to completely negate ravagers and i mean.. what are corruptors gonna do against sentry/immortal?
I truly believe after the 2 stargate pheonixes, Classic couldve done any sort of 2 base push and won, or went into a third base and won any ways, he was too far ahead.
All of this is because how powerful warp-prism/immortal centric 2 base all-ins are against zerg. You HAVE to cut drones early and mass ravagers ( or ling bane, depending on version, or rush hydras to defend another version..). If you just take a small risk and drone a bit too hard in the chance that they just take a late third and macro, you lose to an all-in.
Every Zerg in Korea is playing from behind in ZvP because they have to blind counter well executed immortal/warp prism all-ins.
I really dont know how soO was supposed to play that game. How could he know it would go this way? Protoss can do way too many things and transition on 2 base. Should he have called the bluff and kept massing drones and rushed to hydras after the first warp prism? Should he just not fear the 2 base immortal sentry all-in and just make more drones every game?
Its very hard right now in ZvP to make a good decision, it usually feels like a gamble no matter what. It feels like queens need hallucination phoenix type of thing to make the match-up easier to read right now.. Ovie speed can help, until you scout the chargelots/immortal all-in that is hitting you in 10 seconds. Grats, you invested 100/100 early, delayed lair and get a 10seconds heads-up against one of the strongest all-in in the game.
Bingo.
I’d still like to see a prism pickup range nerf just because it’s a bit silly, I don’t actually think Immortal juggling makes a huge difference. Certainly a nerf I don’t think will make PvZ much better, it’s rare that I see a push where I feel juggling makes the difference, usually I feel the Zerg is either dead or going to crush the push before the engage and that instinct is usually on the money.
There is no ‘push’, there’s a giant gameshow wheel of similar looking pushes. Plus the transition to taking a third base and playing into +2 or +3 chargelot/Immortal with storm.
Zerg can’t overdrone if it’s an aggressive push, they have to time their droning/army balance on a knife edge, if it’s a fake or you just misread and they’re going to 3 base early and you underdrone you just die to a later attack.
Then you have to get the composition right too, banes can do work against adepts, really not very good against forcefields. Delay for hydras and be weaker to things that hit earlier, or crank out roaches and get shredded by a later one with more immortals?
It’s a tough one, the higher starting workers in Legacy really don’t seem to help in regards to Zergs scouting these out. Also ifnZerg can scout too well the matchup could flip in the other direction. But yes it is definitely a problem.
Alternatively I’d like a nerf to the prism as it pertains i warp ins. At least experimented with. Perhaps a cost increase for prism warpins, maybe warpgare cooldowns increases when used with a prism, maybe warping in takes longer.
See if hitting slightly less hard with slightly fewer units, or pushes having slightly less staying power through slower second waves makes them more holdable.
The normal prism we have now could be restored with an upgrade as I think we Protoss kind of need it in its current form in the lategame.
Juggling makes a huge difference as you can place the WP in a safe spot and save any immortal in troubles which makes them to live very long. All this while the WP is in its warping mode. If you have to decided whether to warp in units or save units it would be a different story. It's all about the WP micro, if Zerg snipes the WP the push is over, yet even ravagers with their bile attack are not enough.
Also nerfing the cost of wapring makes the game just a mess.
There are multiple nerfs possible - lower the cost of WP, make warp ins/pick up range an upgrade - disable the shield regen inside of the WP - obvious nerf the pick up range - nerf the warp in area/time(slower warp in would weaken these pushes too, easier to kill the wp)
On June 07 2019 23:42 deacon.frost wrote: Juggling makes a huge difference as you can place the WP in a safe spot and save any immortal in troubles which makes them to live very long. All this while the WP is in its warping mode. If you have to decided whether to warp in units or save units it would be a different story. It's all about the WP micro, if Zerg snipes the WP the push is over, yet even ravagers with their bile attack are not enough.
Also nerfing the cost of wapring makes the game just a mess.
There are multiple nerfs possible - lower the cost of WP, make warp ins/pick up range an upgrade - disable the shield regen inside of the WP - obvious nerf the pick up range - nerf the warp in area/time(slower warp in would weaken these pushes too, easier to kill the wp)
Juggling doesnt matter if the Zerg player executes the proper response.
For example, see Classic vs Soo game 2, where Classic's massive immortal chargelot army evaporated despite warp prism support. a Warp prism + a few immortals doesnt mean anything if the rest of the army just melts (which Zerg armies are capable of doing to protoss armies if the engagement is good)
This highlights the fact that the problem is not that individual units are too good vs Zerg, but, as Wombat stated, that it is too difficult for zerg to respond properly to the vast variation of builds available to protoss at that point in the game.
Nerfing the warp prism would be a huge mistake. It is trying to fix the mistake of the Queen + creep nerf, which, along with the cheaper robo, is the obvious cause of the state of PvZ, by tinkering with another dynamic which has been perfectly fine all this time.
On June 06 2019 04:00 youngjiddle wrote: Honestly, I'm just sad that players like Classic and Trap don't get credit for their wins.
Classic just outplayed and out strategized soO, he mind gamed him so hard. Great starcraft.
Trap easily countered and outmicro'd Inno's stale builds. Both played well and it was a close 2-3.
Put yourself in their shoes and imagine you start winning, then people call your accomplishments moot.
That's the current mindset of the Protoss haters / Terran whiners.
Any non bias fan can see that currently Classic is the best player in Korea, but since he plays Protoss he will never get that respect.
Inno has always been average in TVP, but easier to blame Trap and "PROTOSSED" rather than admitting Inno didn't play well in G5 where he stacked 4 libs into storm
To be honest, I'm not convinced that Classic is the best player in Korea; he is the most consistent and he is having the best results, for sure.
Based on 2019 result and current form, we can only assume he is the "currently" the best at this very moment.
Dark is a close 2nd for me. We all know he is great and consistent but god damn it I just want him to start winning something instead of all these Top 4, Top 2 finishes. Such a fun trash talking personality.
Classic has been clutch but super cheesy in PvZ, I feel this could be exploited in a bo7 finals. He surely has one of the best PvP in Korea, but he didn't get to play the ones who could stop him, Stats and Zest(actually taken down by sOs who Classic proceeded to slay 3-1). Classic's PvT didn't seem convincing to me: Maru beat him quite convincingly(ok, it's Maru), Gumiho threw very hard and Inno nomatched him.
Classic is among the best in Korea and had the best results in GSL this year. He is, however, venerated as being evidently better than his peers, which doesn't really seem me to be the case.